Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Teen College Student Found Raped, Killed. Mother on Mission to Find Murderer.

Episode Date: November 9, 2021

Brittany Phillips, 18, attends Florida's Eckerd College on a full chemistry scholarship her freshman year, but the homesick college student, returns to Tulsa to continue her education. Within a week, the 18-year-old is dead. Phillips was found raped and strangled inside her locked apartment. There are no suspects.Joining Nancy Grace today: Dr. Maggie Zingman - Victim's Mother, Trauma Psychologist, BrittanyPhillipsMurder.net, Facebook.com/Mom.Missing.Brittany  John W. Dill, Esquire - Personal Injury Lawyer, Author: "The Method: Proven Techniques for Winning Jury Trials", www.JohnWDill.com, Twitter/IG @JohnWDillESQ, Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org Dr. Kendall Crowns – Affiliated Faculty: University of Texas Medical Branch Shera LaPoint - Genetic Genealogist, Author: "The Gene Hunter", Founder: TheGeneHunter.com, Twitter: @LapointShera Nicole Partin - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Twitter: @nicolepartin  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a beautiful 18-year-old girl, the world in front of her, graduates from high school, planning college, move in right across the street from her high school where she just graduates, a perfectly safe neighborhood, and then ends up not only raped but murdered. To this day, no suspects. And how is it we know the color of the killer's eyes, the color of his hair, what his face looks like, but we don't know who he is? How can that be? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Like many parents, I thought, this will never happen to me.

She remembers how it started. I opened the door to this young sheriff standing in the rain, and he had a piece of paper in his hand. He just quickly said to me, are you Maggie Zingman? I said, yeah. He said, you need to call Tulsa police. Your daughter's been murdered. She had left Brittany a voicemail days before. Now, Brittany, please call me. I know you're okay, but I just need to hear from you. Next thing she knew, she's standing in Brittany's apartment swarming with investigators. Brittany dropped the friend off at her apartment complex at 51st Memorial. Brittany drives home. The last time her friend saw her. They go and check the well-being and find Brittany deceased inside her apartment. You're hearing our friends at KJRH Channel 2 in Tulsa. How did this happen? And who is Brittany? A name that crime fighters all across the country

know, Brittany Phillips. Well, listen to this. Our friends at Crime Online. After graduating from Union High School, Brittany Phillips is off to St. Petersburg, Florida and Eckerd College on a full chemistry scholarship. The 18-year-old gets homesick, though, after one semester and decides to move back to Tulsa, enrolling in Tulsa Community College. Phillips gets an apartment across from her high school. A full scholarship in chemistry? That's not easy, but what more do we know? What is her background?

Take a listen to Vincent Hill, KJRH. Maggie says she had her hands full when she had her second child, Brittany, so much so that she gave her this nickname. Accident, because by the time she was three, I think she had been to the emergency room three times. As Brittany got older, Maggie says she worried for a different reason. She was a typical teenager, you know, running running around with her friends Brittany was a great student she graduated a year early and headed off to college in Florida but quickly became

homesick she decided at the end of the second semester to move back to Tulsa Brittany enrolled at Tulsa Community College and got her own apartment in a location they thought would be safe where we had never heard about anything Tulsa. Brittany enrolled at Tulsa Community College and got her own apartment in a location they thought would be safe. Where we had never heard about anything bad happening. So attached to home and family and mom, she gets so homesick, even with a full chemistry scholarship, she moves back home to continue school. Listen to Jackie Howard at Crime Online. On September 27th, Phillips plays chauffeur for a friend, taking them home, and then she talks to her mom on the phone. Over the next couple of days, mother, Dr. Maggie Zingman, calls her daughter to no answer. Getting worried, she leaves a message

to be immediately contacted. Zingman is not the only one who's worried. During the same period of time, Phillips misses appointments and classes. One of her friends requests the Tulsa Police Department do a wellness check on Brittany Phillips. A wellness check when you call police to just go literally check on a person you're worried about. With me, an all-star panel joining us. John W. Deal, PI lawyer out of Winter Park, and he's the author of The Method, Proven Techniques for Winning Jury Trials. At JohnWDeal.com, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst to the stars, joining us out of Beverly Hill. She's the star of a new hit series, Bling Empire,

on Netflix. Founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, joining us today, Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert. You can find her at coldcasecrimes.org. Dr. Kendall Crowns, the deputy chief medical examiner, Travis County, Texas, that's Austin. Lecturer, University of Texas and Texas A&M, and faculty at University of Texas Medical Branch. Special guest, Cheryl LaPointe, genetic genealogist, author of The Gene Hunter, spelled G-E-N-E, and founder of GeneHunter.com. And Nicole Parton, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter on Twitter, at Nicole Parton. But first, I want to go to a special guest joining us, Dr. Maggie Zingman. This is Brittany's mother, trauma psychologist.

You can find her at BrittanyPhillipsMurder.net. You may also find her under Caravan to Catch a Killer. Maggie, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you so much for this voice and for all these experts to give input. I mean, this is such a gift for me, really. You know, Maggie, I feel the same way when I speak to you, because if they had a picture in the dictionary beside perseverance, it would be you. Thank you. Your devotion and your iron will to bring justice for Brittany is really unlike anything I've ever seen. And I know I've asked you this before, Maggie, Dr. Maggie.

Tell me what happened when you got the at your door. Well, of course, I was not expecting for some young sheriff to be sitting out there. And when his words, you know, came out, are you Maggie thing? Then, you know, I thought, oh, maybe she maybe she was involved in a crash, you know, maybe something happened, but I didn't expect the next words, which were quick and then he left words. Your daughter's been murdered. You need to call Jeff Felton. It's called the police department, you know, and that was just I mean, anybody who's ever been given those words. I mean, I just felt confused. I felt shocked. I disoriented, didn't know what to do. And, of course, didn't want to believe it, wanted to believe that, oh, they just have identified somebody wrong.

You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, psychoanalyst, I know that feeling. I mean, you know, Dr. Bethany, as I've told you, I thought that I knew it all about grief and mourning when my fiance was murdered. But now that I have children, Dr. Bethany, I mean, I can't even really begin to comprehend what Dr. Maggie Zingman has gone through. What is that immediate reaction? I mean, when I look back on the moment, I learned something horrible had happened to Keith, it doesn't really even seem real to this day. It just doesn't seem real. Like maybe looking back on it, it's like I'm looking at a movie or a clip of something. It just didn't seem like it was happening to me, like Dr. Maggie just said. What is that human response called? Well, Nancy, it's hard to even describe. It's

so disorienting. You're in one reality for years. You give birth to a child, you, or in your case with your fiance, you meet somebody, you fall in love, you have a relationship, you are imagining a whole future. And then all of a sudden, your mind has to accept a new reality that that is all gone. Or you have a child and you know, as you know, when you had John David and Lucy, that their whole well-being is dependent upon you and the course of your life is forever altered. You are thinking about their first day at school and braids and homework and when they'll go off to college, get married, when you'll have grandchildren, and then all of a sudden that's gone. I mean, the fact that the mind has to be in one reality and then in another,

it's so disorienting is not even the right word. It's something that takes days, months, years to even accept. And this young sheriff came to Dr. Maggie's door and just said it so matter-of-factly. And her whole life course was altered in that one minute. It's hard to describe, but I think it's your brain having to wrap it, your mind wrapping itself around a new reality that you have to do it in one minute, but it really takes years to undergo that process. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the brutal rape and murder of a gorgeous young girl, a teen girl,

beautiful on the inside and the outside, a case that is still unsolved. Won't you help us? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. A late night knock on the door woke Dr. Maggie Zingman on the other side of the door, a homicide detective with the Tulsa Police Department. When the police performed their welfare check, they find Phillips' body on her bed and clear evidence of a struggle in her room. Police say it is evident that Phillips tried to fight her attacker.

It's thought that at one point the killer slammed her against the wall. The medical examiner determines Phillips has been raped and strangled. Her estimated time of death is between 9 p.m. on September 27th and 8 a.m. on September 28th. To John W. Dill, veteran trial lawyer, PI lawyer out of Winter Park at johnwdill.com. You know, John, you and I both tried a lot of cases. And, of course, me as a criminal prosecutor, you on the civil side. And I've noticed, and I'm wondering if you have too, and for instance, personal injury cases or wrongful death, the victim's family sometime, even at trial, have not really absorbed what has happened. And I blame part of that on the fact that they haven't really had a time to absorb it, to reconcile with it.

Because until the perp is put behind bars and the civil cases are over, you're being constantly, it's like picking at a scab or a wound or ripping the stitches out of a suture. And until that is done, you can't heal. And the trial process and the investigation just prolongs it, John. Absolutely. I find that even in cases where somebody is on trial or there's a responsible part of that pending thing that continues to go on until there's there really isn't any closure. That's probably the worst term people use. But until that process completes, there's no way for that chapter to be at least addressed and put behind them.

So that's a very real thing that happens throughout the entire process in criminal landscape. Out to Deputy Chief Medical Examiner Travis County, Texas. That's Austin, Dr. Kendall Crowns. Dr. Crowns,s that tod time of death is not really helping me that much did you hear that that's a span of what did they say from like 8 p.m to 5 a.m some attenuated open window what did they say cheryl from 9 p.m on september 27th to about 8 a.m the next day dr kendall crowns for pete's sake all those years in medical school that's the best you can give me

it's not like that on tv crowns it sure it sure isn't uh n. It sure is not. Before I go answer your question, I just want to say that I am sorry for Dr. Zingman's loss. It's hard to hear a parent talk about the loss of their child. Thank you. But we'll move on to the science now, which makes me far less emotional. So trying to give a time of death is very difficult because bodies decompose at different rates the books will tell you you know the body decomposed there's set things that happened at set times during uh during the day or during the process decomposition but the problem is is no one decomposes under ideal circumstances so if if you've exercised, if you've used drugs,

if the particular way you died was particularly violent, these will all speed up the decomposition process. And then also, if you're in a cold environment or you don't have a lot of muscle mass, they'll slow down the decomposition process. So because of all those factors, it's very difficult to give an exact time of death. So that's why we give a range.

Dr. Kendall-Grounds, can't you take the temperature of the body, compare it to the ambient temperature in the room, and calculate how many hours have passed based upon the temperature of the body, the coolness of the body. So there has been attempts to do that, but the science behind them has found that it's not all that accurate. And the other problem is that the body will start matching the ambient temperature. So if it's a warm environment, the body might become warmer.

And it is just difficult. Those formulas have actually been found to not be all that accurate. Okay, that's why you're the MD and I'm the JD. Okay, what about following the victim's food and finding out at what point the food is digested? I mean, to which point the food has been digested based on the last known meal. Yeah, again, there's no way to definitively tell the exact time frame that the digestion can occur and digestion can be altered and changed for different people.

So it isn't accurate science again and plus there's no way to do a case study on that you know have eight people eat food and then determine what their stomach contents were so again the the science there is just not something you can hang your hat on you know what dr kendall crowns i don't like anything that you just said because it's not helping me it is not helping me nail down a time of death it's well that's an interesting that you know most bas and law enforcement they will get very frustrated with that answer and i'm like i am right now? got to go with the science you can't you can't make stuff up and because if someone's guilty they're guilty but you can't make someone guilty that's not hey let me have you stick with madison okay because nobody's trying to convict an innocent person so you're going way way way you're way out of line crowns let me just put that out there and before you can say anything back

take a listen to this on october 1st 2004 2004, Dr. Maggie Zingman's world came crashing down. That is when she learned her daughter, Brittany Phillips, had been murdered. The 18-year-old chemistry major at TCC was brutally attacked in her apartment. The DNA profiles of thousands of men have been compared to the DNA that was found at the crime scene. But so far, no match has been found. Zingman has dedicated her life to traveling the country and raising awareness about Brittany's case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Circling back to Dr. Kendall Crowns, if you just left it at that's the science and that's the truth, I would have understood that. But then when you go on to say you don't want to convict an innocent person, nobody even said that. Where did you get that? But I will say I do respect what you said I don't like it but I respect it it's just I reminds me Cheryl McCollum when I have a crime victim and they want to go forward especially in a sex assault case or child molestation but the statute of limitations is passed I don't like it but that's the law that is the law in many jurisdictions. There's

not a darn thing you can do about it. So sometimes I don't like what Crown says, but it's true, which leads me to you, Cheryl McCollum, founder, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Did you hear what they just said? KJRH Channel 2 Tulsa, that there were thousands of men compared to a DNA profile. Explain to me. Oh, and remind me, I want to circle back to Crowns about, if you'll still talk to me, about how we know they think she was slammed up against a wall and then a rape kit was done we know that she was raped how do i know she was raped and there was not consensual sex believe me she was raped and he's going to tell you how we know that i want to circle back to him on that while he nurses his wounds but cheryl mccullum you on the dna it was compared into codis and in that system there are literally don't

use anachronisms okay codis is the combined dna index system combined dna index system that's codis and explain how codIS fits into this case. They have put the suspect's DNA into that system and literally cross-checked it with every single convicted felon that has got their DNA in that system. Every rapist, every murderer, they've cross-checked it of the DNA samples that we have. There's no match. Joining me right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Nicole Parton. Nicole, thank you for being with us. Let's just go back to the beginning.

Tell me about what happened that we know of to Brittany Phillips. So what we know is that Brittany had finished up a pretty typical Monday, leaving her community college there in the evening, dropping a friend off at her home and then making that mile or so trip to Brittany's own apartment. That was the last time Brittany was seen when she dropped her friend off a mile or so away. She gets to her apartment. She gets upstairs. She lives in the second floor, second story apartment. And that's all we know. And that's why we have that timeline of sometime between 9 p.m. and then 8 a.m. the next morning when all of a sudden Brittany is not showing up for her classes. And that's when her friends become concerned. We know that she left college. We know that she dropped her friend off. We know she made that mile or so drive home, got into the house. And beyond that, we don't know what happened. You know, Dr. Maggie Zingman, this is Brittany's mom. One mile drive. What could happen and the time she drops her her friend girl off and then she gets in her apartment

was somebody in her car was somebody stalking outside of her apartment was somebody in her apartment one mile that's all she had to make one mile home dr maggie Maggie. I know. I know. And it's been impressive. It was in those first eight years of the detective. I mean, they were looking at a lot of things. She was also at an urgent care. I mean, that's where I had talked to her before she dropped her friend home and she couldn't get in to see the doctor. And so we don't know if somebody called her from there. If somebody,

I think they found out that she went to Bank of America ATM because they found a receipt from that. We don't know if somebody was waiting there. The very first day that I met Detective Felton, he went into her closet and said, have you ever seen this? And it was a communal entry into the attic for all the four upstairs apartments. So I know they looked up there for evidence. So we don't know if he was there or there was a balcony that people could hike up on. So, I mean, there's all these multiple things that could have happened. Let me go back.

Dr. Maggie Zingman, this is Brittany's mom. What did you say about a communal entry to the attic that sourced out of Brittany's closet? Yes, out of all four closets of all the four apartment apartments in that whole complex. And so that means anybody getting into the attic, you know, for service, or I discovered that you could climb on the outside stairs and get yourself up onto the roof. And I think there was a common entry up there, you know, so we wonder if somebody was waiting in there.

So they looked at a lot of, you know, customer service people. Like cable guys. Exactly. Telephone. Heating guys. Yeah. Maintenance. All those things.

Wow. You know, Cheryl McCollum, right when you think you can start narrowing down your suspect pool, then you get a rent in the works. That communal entryway is one of the things that to me nightmares are made of. The idea that her doors can be locked, her windows are locked, there's no forced entry. How did they get in there? And then you discover there's a secret door in a closet that could have been accessed by seven different apartments and the room. Guys, we are talking about a brutal rape and murder of a teen girl. Her mother, Dr. Maggie Zingman, with us today, who has been on literally a quest for justice to find the killer.

There is a $6,000 reward. The tip line is 918-798-8477. Repeat, 918-798-8477. I will never forget when I met Dr. Maggie and when I saw her van. Have you ever seen, if you've been in Vegas, I know you've seen it. You may not like what you see, but they shrink wrap. Practically every car that goes by in Vegas is shrink wrapped with an ad, usually for a strip bar. But they're always bright, bold colors.

You can't help but look at it. Her whole van is shrink wrapped trying to find Britney's killer. Take a listen to our friends at Channel 2 Tulsa. Police say there were signs of an altercation before she was raped and strangled to death. All I could think of was how long she was hurt, how long she was dead. Investigators tested DNA from the scene. Any kind of crimes that are even remotely similar we're looking into. But came up with nothing. Dr. Zingman's

final goodbye to her daughter through a blanket. I basically had to pat her head as I always had and say goodbye to her. I just rubbed my finger down her nose and just... And I just said, I'm sorry, pretty. I'm sorry this happened. I'm sorry I didn't protect you. I'm sorry that they won't even let me touch you, you know. It's probably the case I spend most of my time on. Police figured the murderer could be anywhere. You know, hearing you speaking, Dr. Maggie, it makes me want to rip off this mic and this earpiece and get in my minivan and get to my children right now and just look at them and make sure they're okay.

Because you had done everything you could possibly do to protect Brittany. And to hear that you had to kiss her goodbye through a blanket, what does that mean? Well, you know, it's something both the way I was told how she was killed and then they took the body, They identified her by her license. They didn't let me see her and identify her. And that was the funeral director who said, well, she's been autopsied, so we don't think you should be because it's going to be too shocking. And, you know, back then I didn't have a voice. But later on when I was working with OSPI, I said, you know, we're already shocked. But one thing you need to do for families is you need to allow them to make, you know, the decision,

you know. And I didn't know I had that voice. And so, you know, basically I was just following what I was told. You know, since then I've taught a lot of police departments and bureaus that, you know, this can add trauma to the already trauma that they're going through. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, there's a lot of schools of thought regarding whether you should see your loved one's dead body. I didn't want to see my fiancé's. And from that point on, I would be plagued with nightmares. And when I would try to see him, I would always see in the dream like a zipped up body bag.

Or I'd hear his voice and look for him, but I couldn't see him. So not seeing a dead body can have a lot of effects you would never even contemplate. Whereas seeing a dead body, then you've got that image in your head the rest of your life. So what's the answer? it's such a complex question that you're asking i mean it it depends on the individual family member and how they grieve and dr makey what what do you think i mean was it helpful was it not what do you think no i think i was it helpful? Was it not? What do you think? No, I think I agree. You know, for Nancy, the choice was not to. For me, I really wanted to. And part of my way I've survived these 17 years is I haven't only thought about myself, but because I'm a trauma psychologist, I was then 20 years. Now it's 35 years. But, you know, I've just talked to thousands of families, and it's that lack of choice, I think, or this, you know, has it needs a choice because so much of your life is out of control that that was just one more thing that was out of my control she was taken from an apartment before you know it's interesting Dr. Maggie if I did it over I would have gone

to see his body if I could make the choice over. And when my dad passed away, knowing what I then knew, I never left his body, ever. Everybody else left. They came and started cleaning out the room, and I stayed with him until the very end. So I think you're right. crime stories with nancy grace guys i want you to take a listen to our friends at crime online over 70 swabs of potential dna are collected at scene, including blood and semen, police believe, from Phillips' killer. The DNA is uploaded to CODIS.

I want to speak to a very special guest joining us. It's Shira LaPointe, the gene hunter. Shira, listen to our cut 10, Fox 23. Police were able to get DNA of Brittany's killer at the scene, but that DNA has been sitting through the years until now when long-awaited technological advances have finally come to an end. Sergeant Shane Toole says recently Parabon Nano Labs used the DNA to come up with a phenotype report. It can narrow down to a very good certainty of hair color, freckles, ethnicity. And it ultimately led to this computer-generated picture. Zingman says she now has new hope.

Having a visual possibility, you know, it's opening a big door because it's not just going to be some theme or some idea that somebody's going to tip us on. It's going to be the way the person looks. Out to Cheryl LaPointe, genetic genealogist author of the gene hunter so you can tell me the guy's hair color whether he has freckles his ethnicity so much about him but basically i've got a picture of him i've got his dna but i don't know who he is. What is that? Genetic genealogy gives leads to law enforcement to help figure out who the perpetrators are. We have DNA in this case, which sample do you use to work to find the

answers? To take this DNA, put it in the sites that genealogists use like GEDmatch, Family Tree DNA, and DNA Solves, how do you make that decision? Normally, it's a collaboration between law enforcement and the labs that process the DNA. In that case, that's what was done. And this was given to Parabon. They process the DNA. They got the results. They have a picture. And that's given to law enforcement for them to investigate. But just when we think we've got the killer, devastating news. Take a listen to our friends at Channel 6 KO TV. They found DNA on the sheet from semen that matched also a slight small sample of blood. So the DNA being two sources from the same person,

logically they thought that was the killer. The DNA from the scene was used to create a composite sketch of what the suspect might look like. We got detectives say one of them compared it to the DNA from the scene, and it was a match. And for a brief moment, they thought they finally had their killer until they talked to that man and others and learned of his whereabouts at the time of the murder and determined he was not the killer after all.

The hole that I had learned to live with in my heart, it just opened and it bled, and I was just overwhelmed. She and police had pinned their hopes on that DNA from the scene. But since that is no longer the case, they now know nothing about who did this. He could be African-American, Hispanic, Polynesian, German. He could be anyone. To Dr. Maggie Zingman, this is Brittany's mother. How can that be?

DNA is taken from the scene and it's not the killer i know i mean and that's i think initially why i was so shocked you know when we went through that whole genetic analysis through with cc moore and that direct hit led to somebody who was not our killer i mean when i found out you know it was, it sort of made sense. But it's just been very confusing. Why was his DNA at the scene? That's what I don't understand. Yeah, one of Brittany's friends stayed over with her boyfriend, and the semen was found on the sheet.

So the semen at the scene of the rape and the murder belong to Brittany's friend's boyfriend. Do I understand that correctly? Correct. Correct. Well, Cheryl LaPointe, genetic genealogist, you have the science down, but the wrong circumstances. What about the DNA taken from Brittany's body? My question exactly nancy um if you had 70 swabs and you have 69 more chances to figure out exactly who this person is i have hope i do have hope in this case that other samples can be processed and we can do genetic genealogy well

i don't understand the holdup cheryl the point i agree with you cheryl mccullum what's the problem why can't we use the other the other swabs dna taken from britney's body i'll tell you right now nancy they need to go back to zero one and they need to do the rape kit again, the sheets, the pillowcases, her clothing, reexamine everything again. Get the sheets out and do the MVAT across everything, not just swabbing and cuttings. Do the whole thing and then submit the new things as well as the old swabbing. Every single thing needs to be tested in this case. What is the holdup, Maggie? Why aren't they trying the same process with the DNA taken from her body, not off her sheet?

I know, I know. And they had put some, maybe five or six other profiles up in CODIS, but for the last four years, I and Cheryl are probably aware of it where I have been pushing and pushing for them. Are they using the M-VAC? Are they have they reanalyzed the rape kit? And the detective, the last detective who just retired, you know, I was even asking for cold case investigators. And he was saying we don't need it. he asked the um lab to do it so finally it's not making sense to me i know you're saying use the mvac on the sheets and re-examine the swabs but dr kendall crowns the swabs taken from her body from her vagina from her skin, from wherever semen was found.

That is secured under a slide in perpetuity. Why can't we use that for DNA? Why do we have to go back to the sheets and vacuum them? We've got the DNA. So, I mean, if you put it under a slide, you've processed it and probably stained it, and you've damaged the quality of it so that's why they're going back to get a better sample from what they originally had is that possible years later yes actually there's a there was a case in chicago when i worked there that it was a

bunch of people were murdered at brown chicken and they didn't have suspects for years but what the officers did at the time was they packaged some of the food in the trash and years later they tested a chicken bone and were able to get dna from that and then they had a presumptive person that was telling friends that he had been involved in it and they brought him in did a dna match and it was like over a decade later, they matched it from a DNA gotten, gotten from a chicken bone at the scene of the crime. That's incredible. So it can be done and the DNA is preserved.

It's not all put under a slide. So it, you know, I hear you, Dr. Maggie, and I hear you, Cheryl McCollum.

Yes, I want it all retested. I want the, the vac, I want it all retested. I want the vac. I want it all. But what I'm saying is the DNA is readily available for Cheryl LaPointe or someone like Cheryl LaPointe, the genetic, the gene hunter, to go in and retest it. And Parabon can test it as well. I mean, they tested one swab. Parabon can still run on these others. And from a legal standpoint.

Is this John Deal speaking? Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry. From a legal standpoint. John, I was just going to ask you. Yeah, go ahead. You go ahead. Go ahead.

No, I was just saying, certainly Parabon can run those swabs among the genetic population get a composite from that which that those composites can lead to the identification and a dna match but additionally from a kind of a legal standpoint you've excluded somebody else that uh dna was on the scene so whoever we find next doesn't have a reasonable doubt as to who's this other person who essentially has an alibi so it seems that the information is there to be gleaned out by paramon and and the investigators you know john deal what do you have to do put a little fire under their rear end to get them to to test the other dna what do you have to do john well i think you have to have a podcast and get the word out and put some put some pressure on them because it's doable.

Again, there's some expense involved, but Parabon runs these constantly. It's not an overwhelming task for them to do. I think I hear Cheryl jumping in. Is that you or Shara? It was Shara, and I was going to add the fact that cost is a huge factor in these cases. How much does it cost to perform a test like this? And why can't it be done at the state crime lab, Cheryl LaPointe? Nancy, it can actually be done at any lab that does this kind of work.

Again, there's a private lab that does crowdsource funding to work these kinds of cases. What lab? Othram. What? Othram. Dr. Middleman, Nancy. Dr. Middleman. Yes, yes, yes, yes. What about that possibility, Maggie? I was able to obtain some funding almost two years ago, and with the detective that has since retired, it seemed like the paperwork was being held up. It wasn't being sent to the chief. So I kept going after them, talking to them, asking when it was going to happen. They kept telling me it was in process. And finally, about three months ago, I talked to the chief and I talked to the new detective, Detective Stiles, and they said they were processing the paperwork.

And about two months ago, it hadn't been signed. But about a month ago, I was told by Detective Stiles that the paperwork was done and the samples that they had chosen to send off had been sent off. I don't know what the delay was on the paperwork. It just seemed like it took a lot longer than it should have since I got the funding over two years ago. It just seemed like a lot of things were stalled with the case with the past detective. I don't know how soon I'm going to get results. I had planned to, you know, give it a month or so before. One, I've sent a – I've been trying to communicate with Detective Stiles, asking him if he knows how long it will take. And then I tend to also contact the company to I know it probably depends on caseload and I can see that they're working on a lot of cases now and everything.

But I'm hoping that, you know, something gets done, you know, within a six month period. I'm also trying to get them to analyze all the old evidence with new type of procedures like the mvac or touch dna and i was told that they are going to analyze some of the old evidence with the touch dna you know ways to pick up dna that we didn't have 17 years ago let me remind everyone there is a six thousand $6,000 reward. Brittany's mother to this day is searching for her daughter's killer. 9 1 8 7 9 8 8 4 7 7 is the tip line. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story signing off. Goodbye friend.

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