Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Teen girl Abby kidnapped, tortured in plastic cargo container by American History freak

Episode Date: September 10, 2018

A New Hampshire teen kidnapped and held captive for 9 months tells her story for the first time. Abby Hernandez, now 19, was getting ready to celebrate her 15th birthday when Nathaniel Kibby abducted her as she left school. Nancy Grace explores the case with Southern California prosecutor Wendy Patrick, Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Los Angeles lawyer Troy Slaten, medical examiner Dr. William Morrone, and Crime Stories reporter John Lemley. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'M STUMMED. I'M STILL STUMMED AND SHOCKED. EVEN AFTER SIX MONTHS OF IT. OUT OF TOWN, ZENYA HERNANDEZ SPOKE TO US BY PHONE MONDAY, JUST AFTER SHE PUBLISHED THIS MESSAGE TO ABBY ON THE WEBSITE BRINGABBYHOME.COM. ZENYA WRITES QUOTE, IN THE BEGINNING, MINUTES AND HOURS LASTED ETERNITY.

HOURS TURNED TO DAYS, WEEKS, MONTHS. AND THE FIRST DAY OF THE RETURN TO THE HOME WAS THE DAY OF THE RETURN TO THE HOME. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED.

I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. I WAS SO EXCITED. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES.

THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES.

THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES.

THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THEIR LIVES. THE and I just don't have a choice. We have to just do what has to be done. We're talking about Abigail Hernandez, a teen girl who goes missing last seen on school surveillance video. How can that happen? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls 909-492-7463, 90949-CRIME. Abby Hernandez, there's been a stunning break in the case, but it all goes back to the moment she was taken, the moment she was kidnapped. To Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, let me just introduce everybody. An all-star lineup just for you right now. Cheryl McCollum with me, Cold Case Research Institute, Wendy Patrick, veteran California prosecutor, Dr. Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst out of L.A. Veteran defense attorney Troy Slayton, also from L.A., Dr. William Maroney. Renowned medical examiner and author of a new book, American Narcan. And CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter John Limley. Cheryl McCollum, you have two children, I have two children. I don't get it.

She's on school surveillance. Everything's fine. Then she's just gone like she never even existed. Cheryl. Biggest nightmare. You drop them off. You think they're fine. You think, you know, they've got teachers that know them and care about them. There's generally a school resource officer and this child literally vanishes with everybody around her that knows her. Abby Hernandez, a teen girl, seemingly just vanishes off the face of the earth. How did she go missing, John Limley? Well, the mother, Xenia Hernandez, really didn't think anything was strange at first when her 14-year-old daughter, Abigail, didn't come home from school on an October afternoon.

She thought, well, she could be anywhere. She's probably at school with her friends. Xenia is a nurse, happy life in North Conway, New Hampshire, raising two daughters, Sarah and Abigail, also known as Abby. Well, as a new high school freshman, Abby studied German, robotics, loved classic rock. So she was a busy kid. So her not showing up from school, she was off exploring life. And so when Abby didn't answer her mother's text, Xenia, well, she did eventually begin to worry.

Abby had never just not shown up at home from school. Yeah, that was the first alarm right then when she didn't answer her mother's texts. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of LA, I mean, with me and the twins are about to turn 11, you can't come down on them every time they do, like for instance, when John David plays 31 minutes of the evil fortnight or as we call it fart night I can't come down on him for that or Lucy once again we're up at 10 o'clock at night doing the homework she was supposed to do at 3 30 yeah but long story short if you if you beat him over the head every single time they do anything pretty soon they're gonna be climbing out the bedroom

window and you're not gonna see him at all so you know you got to temper it so when abby didn't answer the mom's first couple of texts mom's like okay i don't like it but i'm not going to come down on her but then it went bad it went sideways well it went bad um just about 257 because that's when abby texted her boyfriend who was riding home on the bus and texted a little heart emoji to him. But I think that might've been her last text. And you're talking about John David and Lucy, you know, there's such a fine line between loving your children and then intruding into them. I find with my nephews and nieces, I always want to say, how was your day? How are you doing? Did you do your homework? But pretty soon they start to feel intruded on and controlled. So this mom was trying to give her daughter a little space. And this mom also knew Abby. She

knew her daughter. She knew that her daughter had a big life, as John Lemley described, loved robotics, loved all kinds of things, and was also a very friendly young woman. So she gave her a little space. So unfortunately, it was space in which bad things started to happen. Little did mommy know then that her little girl, Abby, would soon be held in a cargo container wearing a shock collar around her neck. Listen as her friends beg her to come home. Dear Abby, I cannot tell you enough how much you are missed. I know you probably have heard at some point that you are missed, but I don't think it can be described, the missing that goes on. The words, we miss you Abby, flash across the new video

posted on the Bring Abby Home website. It's filled with messages from friends, updates on high school moments she's missed since she disappeared. Hi Abby, I know I haven't seen you in a while, IT'S FILLED WITH MESSAGES FROM FRIENDS, UPDATES ON HIGH SCHOOL MOMENTS SHE'S MISSED SINCE SHE DISAPPEARED. Hi Abby, I know I haven't seen you in a while and I wrote you a letter but first I'd really like to show you around my room because I repainted it and I

redid it all. I really need you back, there's nobody else like you. You're not only the funniest person I will probably have the ability of meeting but you make my day just by us talking. IT IS ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO REACH ABBY HERNANDEZ. YOU'RE NOT ONLY THE FUNNIEST PERSON I WILL PROBABLY HAVE THE ABILITY OF MEETING, BUT YOU MAKE MY DAY JUST BY US TALKING. IT IS ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO REACH

ABBY HERNANDEZ, LAST SEEN LEAVING KENNETT HIGH SCHOOL IN NORTH CONWAY LAST OCTOBER. IN DECEMBER, HER MOTHER REVEALED THAT SHE HAD RECEIVED A LETTER FROM ABBY, BUT NO CLUES WERE RELEASED AS TO WHY SHE VANISHED OR WHERE SHE COULD BE.

LETTERS ARE ALSO POSTED ON THE WEBSITE. ONE FRIEND WRITES, I AM MISSING OUR WALKS DOWN TO LUNCH FROM ALGEBRA AND OUR TALKS ABOUT THE MOST RANDOM THINGS. where she could be. Letters are also posted on the website. One friend writes, I am missing our walks down to lunch from algebra and our talks about the most random things. Another says, one of the hardest things is knowing that I can't talk to you when I need you the most. But yeah, we just really, really miss you, Abby. Please be home soon. That's our friend, Jean Mackin at WMUR. Earlier, heard from Nick Spanetto at WMUR,

trying desperately to find Abby, her friends, posting videos, pictures, begging her to come home. They had no idea that at that moment she was being held in a cargo container by a freak who was forcing her to call him master and wear a shock collar around her neck. What does that mean to Dr. William Maroney, you know, a veteran medical examiner, author of a brand-new book on Amazon, American Narcan. Dr. William Maroney, we always hear shock collar. What is a shock collar? A shock collar is a conductive metal to bring a charge from a battery to the skin. And the shock collar is designed to be around the neck because that's some of the thinnest skin on the human body.

And those are also some of the thickest neck muscles. And they run up to the head and it causes pain. It causes pain in the head. It causes pain in back of the head. It causes pain in the jaw. Whereas if you try to put a shock collar on somebody's thigh, it's not going to make the same negative contribution. There's no negative feedback when you shock a big, huge muscle. So you put it on the neck because there's very thin skin and those muscles run up to the head. It's negative reinforcement. And it's operated by remote control, infrared or ultrasound. They're used only sparingly on animals, usually in training or for discipline. And then when the animals learn the parameters of a yard and they no longer run out of the yard,

people take the shock collars off. Or around small children to teach animals not to impede on the space of a small child. But on a human, there's no big thick coat of fur. And like I said, those are very thin skin parts and they go up to the head. Very, very negative reinforcing. You know, Dr. William Maroney, as learned and experienced as you are, I guess you never thought you'd go to medical school

to talk about a shock collar. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, he's telling me the physical impact of a shock collar. But you look at it in a different way, Dr. Bethany. Well, I look at it as sadism. I know we've talked about this so many times, but sadism is one of the five perversions listed in the DSM. And sadism is when a perpetrator wants to inflict pain on a victim to enhance his or her own sexual arousal. That's what it is at the end of the day. And so, you know, sadly, as soon as this perpetrator kidnapped Abby, I think he started to set up conditions in which he could inflict pain upon her. I'm sure there was psychological torture, physical torture. As you said earlier, she was held in a plastic container. I don't know how big that container was, but one of the things we know about sociopaths is that they have very poor sexual arousal outside of inflicting pain on their victims. In other words, they can't get turned on without hurting another person. So the MO of the

kidnapping, the abduction, the infliction of pain is that it's a highly sexually motivated crime. And when I think about this 14-year-old girl being held in reportedly a cargo container wearing a shock collar, it's almost more than I can think. My twins are soon to be 11. That's just three years away. Speaking of inflicting pain, if you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, you do not want to miss the new docuseries on oxygen. The true story of a teen girl, a Mississippi cheerleader, burned alive. And the story of the man accused of this horrific crime. Is the right man on trial? Who is he? And who was Jessica Chambers? How does such a horrific crime even happen? More questions than answers. A case that has captured American headlines, takes over social media, and leaves a

small town divided. A must-see TV event, unspeakable crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers airs Saturday, September 15, 7, 6 central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. He said, you know, I'm thinking of finding something a little more humane for you to keep you quiet. He said, I'm thinking of a shock collar. You know, they're like dogs wear. A shock collar. I remember he put it on me and he told me, okay, try and scream. And I just slowly started to raise my voice and then it shocked me.

So he's like, okay, now you know what it feels like, you know. Did you ever learn his name? Did he say anything about who he was actually he told me um call me call me master what a freak what a freak a horrible monster that stole 14-year-old Abby Hernandez. Last seen on school video, mom had no idea what was happening. You are hearing our friends at ABC's 2020 in the voice of Abby Hernandez. Abby Hernandez kidnapped and taken, taken away from her home, from her mother, from her school. It's hard for me to take in. Troy Slayton, you are the defense attorney, the renowned defense attorney joining us out of LA. How do you defend the use of a shot collar on a little girl? You certainly can't. You can't defend the indefensible. So in

a case like this, you're simply looking to make the best deal for your client and spare his life. And so in this case, you're trying to find any mitigating circumstances. Is there anything possible in the case so you can structure a plea deal, a plea bargain, as it's known, so that way your client is spared the pain of a trial and opens up the possibility that he could be paroled at some point in the future. You know, it's just hurting me to hear you even say paroled someday in the future. We are talking about Abby Hernandez, a 14-year-old schoolgirl, tortured horribly, repeatedly sex assaulted in a shipping container, held for nine months. The reality is Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, the fact that she survived is the miracle after the first week. Statistically, she should have been dead.

No question. That in and of itself is a miracle. But I'm going to tell you something. While the defense attorney is going out trying to figure out a mitigating circumstance to get his client the best deal, if this were my case, I'd be hitting the streets talking to every prostitute I can find to tell me stories about this guy. I would be going to every sex shop in that town finding out stories about this guy. He didn't go from zero to the shipping container to kidnapping

this child with a shock collar. There are stories all over the place about this guy, and I would get every one of them. Every single one, Cheryl McCollum to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. She's right. This guy didn't go from zero to 250 MPH just like that. He's got to have a history before he did this, Wendy. You bet. And I'm going to say amen, Cheryl. You know, there's all sorts of incidents out there that the prosecution can find, although they didn't need to in this case. Because after he let her go, by the way, not out of the grace of his heart, but because he thought the police were going to raid his home, you talk about mitigating circumstances, which Troy has to. That's his role in the case. But in terms of aggravating circumstances, the duration, the length of time, the sophistication, the shock collar, all of the extent to which he took. And that's another reason, you know, he didn't go from

zero to the shipping container. All of that they can put together, including whatever they can find in the community. It is a miracle he didn't get 10,000 life sentences out of this case. But I think we can all rest easy that he will not be paroled. Well, you think he won't, right? But remember, remember, so often, for instance, Charles Manson at the time was going to get the death penalty, but then suddenly, whoops, they reversed it. So he managed to live out his life, basically dying from old age after having internet relationships, a money-making machine, celebrity visitors, the works. Things happened.

I fully believe he could easily be paroled in a number of years. And what threw a lot of people off was that she was caught. She, Abby, the little girl, was caught on security surveillance video at her mom's home walking in the front door, looking like everything was okay. In fact, I'm looking at it right now. There she is. She's dressed in a striped top and dark boots. She's holding her hand up to her mouth as she's walking alone, which is a sign of fear or shock or trepidation and she's walking along a short path that leads up to the doorstep of her home in New Hampshire people saw

that and went oh she just went out she's been on a walkabout she ran away and now she's home but Cheryl McCollum you're right he let her go for a reason, that SOB. He did not want to get caught. And think about after nine months of torture, physically, sexually, mentally, psychologically, he has been messing with her for nine months, 24 hours a day. She's probably almost walking up to that door in a fog like, is this real? Am I really going to be safe? Am I really going to be in my own house with my mom in my own bedroom? She was probably stunned. You know, I'm trying to take in what really happened to her. Dr. William

Maroney with me, a very well-known medical examiner joining us, the author of a brand new book on Amazon, American Narcan. Dr. Maroney, she was thin. She looked emaciated. It's like she had been a POW, a prisoner of war, Dr. Maroney. That's exactly what happens to the body in prisoner of war camps from World War II away through Southeast Asia. What you have is a lack of access of good exercises causes muscle atrophy. People lose their tone. And you can never keep up a good calorie count. So you lose weight in general, and then the body begins to burn fat because you

don't have enough calories. Then you get sunken eyes. You lose good, solid, healthy, round facial features. Now, these can all come back with exercise and a good diet, but it's a very common syndrome that we saw all the way through. Most likely, it's dramatized by some of the pictures we saw from Auschwitz. People lose body fat, people lose muscle, then they're weak, they have poor posture. And don't forget the internal organs. They're suffering because you're not eating well. And where's the sunshine and the fresh air? And how about cleanliness? You lose the opportunity to have a natural, biological, just kind of good, healthy bacteria on you, the good stuff that keeps the bad stuff away. So you're prone to disease, you're prone to infections, fungal infections, yeast infections, bladder infections, skin infections. So all sorts of things go wrong and you don't have an immune system to fight back. It was during an interview that Abigail Hernandez told detectives from the Conway Police Department and New Hampshire State Police that it was Nathaniel Kibbe that held her

captive. According to the affidavit, Abigail told detectives that at one point during her confinement, Kibbe, quote, handed her a cookbook that had the name Nate Kibbe written inside. And he also provided her with a ruler that had the initials N-E-K written on it. Abby says she used paper from a notebook and was given a pen so she could write a letter to her mother and her boyfriend. A NOTEBOOK AND WAS GIVEN A PEN SO SHE COULD WRITE A LETTER TO HER MOTHER AND BOYFRIEND. WHEN ASKED BY DETECTIVES IF SHE COULD PROVIDE MORE DETAILS ABOUT WHERE SHE WAS BEING HELD, ABIGAIL QUOTE, REMEMBERED SEEING A FRAMED COPY OF THE DECLARATION

OF INDEPENDENCE HANGING ON THE WALL, A LEPER PRINT BLANKET ON THE BED. AT THE END OF THE INTERVIEW, DETECTIVES PRESENTED A PHOTO LINEUP OF EIGHT MEN THAT INCLUDED A PHOTO OF KIBE. THE AFFIDAVIT SAYS SHE At the end of the interview, detectives presented a photo lineup of eight men that included a photo of Kibbe. The affidavit says she immediately picked out Nathaniel Kibbe without hesitation

and that she broke down emotionally and said she was 98% sure the man in the photo was the man who took her. You're hearing our friends at WMUR detailing what happened after Abby came home and how she revealed to the police who kidnapped her. Okay, you know what? I'm just going to put it out there. I love the Declaration of Independence, and yes, it's me that carries around a pocket copy of the Constitution. But you know what? This freak had the Declaration of Independence framed on his wall. That tells me a lot about him. But hey, I'm just a JD. You're the psychoanalyst, Dr. Bethany Marshall out of L.A.

Weigh in. Well, I thought that was pretty ironic, too. The Declaration of Independence on his wall while he's putting a choke collar on a 14 year old or a shock collar and asking her to call him master there have to be other people in his life that he had ultimate power over whether it was a girlfriend um a prostitute that he picked up this guy wait a minute right there there. You know he's been with hookers. I mean, please. I'm telling you, Cheryl McCollum, Dr. Bethany's right. He has been exerting the same genre of hateful conduct toward hookers. I guarantee you, Cheryl. There's no doubt about it.

And I'm telling you, some of these women, unfortunately, are not going to come forward. They're not going to call the police. But everyone... They might be dead, Cheryl. Have you thought of that? Oh, absolutely. I will get into that. But again, with this guy, I'm telling you, those were his test humans.

Those were his test subjects. He has lived out part of this fantasy repeatedly on women that he pays. Now you see him living it out for real. That's all this is. It is 50 shades of perversion. You know, to Dr. William Maroney, medical examiner and author, listen to this. He had the Declaration of Independence on his wall framed. Nothing wrong with that. Turns out he was a gun nut that believed there would absolutely be a zombie apocalypse. Help me, Dr. Maroney. Here's the problem with a lot of the people that buy into that genre. I don't know how you're going to finish that sentence with just one problem.

Here's the problem. There's so many problems, Dr. Maroney, with this gun freak, zombie, a cop. He doesn't live in this real world. He can't follow laws. People feel bored and they look for some television, big style movie lifestyle, saving the world, fighting zombies. He's delusional. As a medical person, when you see somebody like this, you look for activities of daily living. Can they function? Do they have a job? Do they have friends? Do they pay taxes? And at every level, he's probably deficient. The only thing we haven't talked about is, is he suffering from rabid substance abuse?

Is this guy lost in illicit drugs? Why are you making excuses for him? I thought you were on my side, Maroney. Because there's tens of thousands of people out there like him that just aren't locking teenage girls up in boxes. All sorts of people believe this is a zombie junk. Not that you know of. Not my neighborhood. So what you're telling me is you think he's got some mental defect? Really?

You think so? So if he's got a mental defect, Maroney, how did he manage to keep it a secret for nine months? He keeps this girl in a storage container on some secluded property. Nobody could find her. He's right there under their noses. He outsmarted everybody. Crazy like a fox. This guy isn't crazy, Maroney. It's antisocial personality disorder. He keeps away from other people. We're going to have a hard time finding people that really know him. And in the end, it's isolation instead of cohabitation. If he'd integrated healthy in junior high, in society, in an occupation where he could be normal, pay taxes, have a job, none of this stuff develops.

It's when you pull yourself in and you live with a computer screen and you're only on the internet and you really believe in the stupid zombie garbage then you reach out and lock people up in containers because of strange relationships these are all abnormal relationships at different levels he may need lifelong institutionalization and therefore never get parole because his brain is so scrambled, it's like a frittata on the south side of Manhattan. Okay, I never really thought about it like that. Troy Slayton, this is where you come in. I say the guy's totally sane. He's just evil. And Troy Slayton, I know you're too sophisticated and educated to believe that there is evil,

like the devil in this world. But I am telling you, Troy Slayton, there is. And this guy, Kibbe, is the devil. Evil, Troy. Is that a defense in the codebook? It's certainly not. But there are plenty of people that are evil that don't go and do things like this, like Dr. Maroney described, antisocial behavior. So as a defense attorney, I am looking, like I said, for anything that could be mitigating, including a potential mental defect that would have caused him to engage in this activity that might provide the opportunity for him to receive mental health assistance while he's incarcerated, so that way, maybe at some point in the future, he can be rehabilitated and restored to society. Listen.

I noticed on the door there were wires. There were, like, screws and then wires. And he told me that he tripped the door so that if for any reason it was busted open, the room would catch on fire. So that you couldn't survive if somebody found this place. If somebody kicked open the door, that I would quickly go up in flames, basically.

So there was a lot of psychological intimidation and fear here. Were you on edge all this time? Yeah, I was afraid that the room would set on fire. And there was a camera that was always blinking, like a security camera, and I thought he was watching me. That's from our friends at 20-20. It was almost like it was watching me. That's from our friends at 20-20. It was almost like, it was a shock.

Like I had this shudder and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. That was such a beautiful moment. I remember just the look on her face. I remember seeing her and she looked different. She really did. I could see stress, the months of stress in her face. And it kind of killed me a little bit, but I was just so relieved to see her. You are hearing from our friends at 2020, David Muir and Amy Robach. That is Abby seeing her mother for the first time. And I'm totally

covered in goosebumps right now. Cheryl McCollum, sometimes I start crying when the twins, my eyes tear up, when the twins come out of school for me to pick them up. Okay, can you imagine one of your two beautiful children coming up the front? It's too much. And Cheryl, you are the director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Most of your cases you deal with, the parents have never had that moment where the child comes home. It never happens.

And then a miracle, the mom sees, like the prodigal son at a distance, she sees her daughter coming up to the front porch. It is a miracle, Nancy. And then, you know, to think they have that moment, which is just unbelievable. It is absolutely a miracle. And then all of this information comes out about what happened to that child repeatedly every day for nine months. In a cargo container, wearing a shot collar, being sex assaulted, raped, and beaten every single day. And the way she— And, Nancy, I want to say one thing about whether or not this guy knew right from wrong.

He damn well knew it was wrong because when he thought the police were coming he had to get rid of her he absolutely had the capacity to understand what he was doing was illegal his action proved absolutely and that's just where i was headed cheryl Thank you. John Limley, it all cracked wide open because of another girl. This is why Abby Hernandez was released and probably why she's alive right now. A young girl that had fallen in with the wrong crowd and they go party at a local hotel for the weekend. And she decides to go onto a dating website and she goes to a dating website. And who should show up to her hotel room but Nathaniel Kibbe. And then what happened? Give it to me in a nutshell, Limley.

Well, this is where two cases come colliding. Lauren Mundy did go on this date with Kibbe. She knew absolutely nothing about Abby, that he was holding a teen captive. And it all came down to Monday using counterfeit money that Kibbe had given her so Kibbe leaves a couple of 50s when he leaves and she tries to use him at Walmart the next day she's picked up for counterfeit money and she's so mad at the guy that left at her date Jay going by the name Jay so she calls him and blesses him out on her cell phone. And that's when Kibbe, as Troy Slayton would have you believe, is insane. Thought, oh no, she's called me on my

cell phone. Cops are going to come here. And he lets Abby go. Let's Abby go. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. You know what? The truth is stranger than fiction, right? Oh, amen to that as well. Not only is the truth stranger than fiction, but one of the reasons that this is such an inspirational story in retrospect is you talk about evil. You also talk about good and what this woman did, this young woman, this brave young woman who prayed every single day. And actually, according to some of whom have looked at this in retrospect,

was the textbook victim in terms of talking to this guy. This is another thing that belies the notion that he was insane or mentally deranged in some sense. Actually had the wherewithal to bond with this guy. He knew what he was doing. She became a sort of trusted confidant to the extent that he gave her books to read, one of which had his name in it. So you talk about resourcefulness. Also, this also goes to the aggravating circumstances that I would argue as a prosecutor, he knew exactly what he was doing the entire time he held her captive. And that is one of the things that will be considered and was considered in his

sentencing. You know, Dr. William Maroney, esteemed medical examiner and author of a brand new book on Amazon, American Narcan. Dr. Maroney, you know, they don't like you to talk about this on TV, but I can tell you this much, and I think you'll agree with me. It wasn't just resourcefulness. It was a miracle. This girl did pray every day that she would be free to see her mother again and she was delivered i firmly believe that dr maroney sometimes you have to admit what breaks down in everyday life is we have good and evil and we have choices we can make to take us down one path or another. Her salvation was her faith. His reprehensible, sick behavior is the consequence of evil. medicine, science, law, entertainment. Every day, everything breaks down. Do we have choices between good and evil? Now, some people want to soften that a little between good and bad. I only think it comes down to good and evil. I'm going to take Dr. William Maroney's ethical

philosophizing, with which I agree. I'm going right back down the crapper with Dr. Bethany Marshall. Okay, here we are, Dr. Bethany, as we have been so many times before. You know, what's interesting about what you said earlier, you know, you and I, we get right down in the mud. Okay, Dr. Bethany, what you said earlier about the sadomasochistic aspect of how he could only enjoy being with her if he were hurting her. When he was with Lauren Monday, they fell asleep cuddling and there was no sex. No sex, right? Probably because he couldn't. He couldn't get an erection. He couldn't maintain an erection and arousal unless he's inflicting cruelty on someone. So there's actually a very specific reason for this. And the idea is that sociopaths have inner deadness or boredom.

Dr. William Maroney used the word bored earlier in the show when he was talking about, you know, Tibbetts, I'm sorry, Nathaniel's preoccupation with zombies and he was a gun nut. But so we know that they have inner deadness, boredom. They can't experience excitement in the normal ways, whether it's sexual arousal or just the excitement of being alive. They can't just look at a flower, watch a movie, enjoy their relationships. to a psychic situation where they use cruelty, sadism, aggression, and seeing fear in the eyes of the other in order to ride the excitement of the infliction of pain in order to gain that sexual arousal. And so that's why often with sex crimes, I mean, take someone like the B2K killer, there's often not, we don't find at the crime scene that there's semen on or in the body.

Often there's either no semen in the room even, or the semen is deposited somewhere completely away from the body because they're so busy inflicting the pain that the normal type of sexual interaction never even occurs. It's like they masturbate in frustration, maybe hours after the infliction of cruelty, but they cannot have normal ejaculation while with the victim. Okay, down in the mud with Dr. Bethany. You know, that sounds like a great podcast down in the mud with Dr. Bethany. Guys, I am amazed to say that there is a happy ending. Listen, there were no cars coming either way. He said, get out. I am amazed to say that there is a happy ending. Listen.

There were no cars coming either way. He said, get out. So I got out, and then he yelled, wait, give me my hat back, give me my hat back. I took the hat off, I threw it in the car, slammed the door, and he drove off. Just like that. Just like that. That was it. I remember looking up and laughing, just being so happy.

Like, oh, my God, this actually happened. I'm a free person. I never thought it would happen to me, but I'm free, and I just walked home. This never-before-seen footage of Abby returning home caught on the family's security camera. I remember when I came up to my doorstep, I could hear my mom talking on the phone. I could hear her voice. I opened the door and I said, Mom? I remember she said, Abby? And then I remember she ran out.

It was almost like it was a shock. Like I had this shudder and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. That was such a beautiful moment. I remember just the look on her face. I remember seeing her and she looked different. She really did. I could see stress, the months of stress in her face. And it kind of killed me a little bit, but I was just so relieved to see her. From our friends at ABC's 2020, well, a miracle.

Abby is alive, and Kibbe is behind bars for a very long time. All I can say is P-T-L. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.