Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Teen girl found shot dead after hysterical 911 call. Murder or suicide?

Episode Date: October 4, 2019

Ace Stenger uses a rifle bought by a friend to allegedly commit suicide. She had only known the friend two weeks. Nancy Grace is joined by Nancy Grace to look at all the things that don't add up in this case. The panel: Ashley Wilcott,  Judge and trial attorney; Steven Lampley, Former Detective; Dr Katherine Maloney, Nickle City Forensics; Dr Carla Manly, Psychologist and Fear specialist; and Peggy Gallek, Fox 8 investigative journalist. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What city is your emergency? I don't know where I am. I'm... I'm... I'm... I'm... I am. I'm, uh... Okay, listen.

Take a deep breath. Do you know what city you're in? Are you in Brexhill, or are you... Hold on. Hold on, let me see. Yeah, I'm in... Yeah, I'm in... Yeah, I'm in Brecksville. All right.

And you're calling from 840-3815? Yes, yes. I'm connecting you right over to Brecksville. I'm going to be right here with you. Don't hang up. Thank you. Wow. You are hearing a 911 call that will send shivers down your spine. A teen commits suicide.

That's tragic in itself, but is that the whole story? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to more of that 911 call. Let's see what clues have been left behind. 911, what's your emergency? My friend... Hello? My friend tried to take a bunch of pills to kill himself, so I went to go and get him. But I...

He shot himself. Where are you calling from? I'm in some local park in Brecksville. Is he alive? No. Can you be checked for anything like that? He shot himself in the head. Okay. What is your location again? I'm in a park in Brecksville.

Spell the park. Hold on. Let me see. What was that? I'm in a park in Brecksville. Spell the park. Hold on, let me see. What was that? I'm in the Brecksville Reservation. Brecksville Reservation. Where in Brecksville Reservation? I'm down one of the side streets off Brecksville Road. More1-1 call and it immediately leaps to my mind who is making the call and why are they there at a suicide i mean typically if somebody's with you

they're talking you out of committing suicide so at first of, you want to believe the person calling 911. But then, I mean, it's got a dot on somebody. Why is this person calling to tell me about a suicide? Why are they there as a witness? What an all-star panel we have. Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer. You can find her at ashleywilcott.com. Stephen Lampley, renowned detective at stephenlampley.com. New book, Outside Your Door on Amazon. Dr. Catherine Maloney, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner there at

Erie County with Nickel City Forensics. Don't ask her how many autopsies she's performed. You don't have time to hear them all. Literally hundreds and hundreds. dr carla manley joining me psychologist and fear specialist at drcarlamanley.com of so many books her most recent one aging joyfully on amazon and right now to fox a cleveland investigative journalist peggy gallick peg Peggy, I've got so many questions about this 911 call, but let's start with who is the victim and what are the circumstances surrounding the victim's death? Well, the victim, police are just giving us the name of Ace. This was a juvenile. This was a juvenile, according to the autopsy report, it was a female, she was a female, and they're only giving us the first name of Ace. Now, she apparently was having some issues, and she was picked up by her friend, who you heard on that 911 call.

With me, Peggy Gallick, Fox 8 Cleveland. Peggy, I find it very curious that she, Ace, is not alone at the time of her suicide. Let me just start at the beginning. Where did the suicide take place? Sure. The suicide took place at the Brecksville Reservation at the Cleveland Metro Parks. It's in Brecksville, Ohio, which is outside of Cleveland, about 20 miles east outside of Cleveland. So let me understand.

Is that a park? You're saying reservation is a park or a nature preserve? What is it? It's a park? You're saying reservation is a park or a nature preserve? What is it? It's a park. The Cleveland Metro Parks is all over the Cleveland area, obviously, and it's a park. Very curious. It's very curious, Peggy. With me from Fox 8 Cleveland, investigative journalist Peggy Gallick. Because, you know, Dr. Carla Manley, psychologist, author, specialist, you know, I've studied and studied and studied over many, many years the method and assessment of homicide and suicide. It's very unusual that someone, I'm just, this is all anecdotal, to leave your surroundings, such as your home, and go to an open area, unless you're jumping off a cliff, to shoot yourself dead. Because typically, in my experience over many, many years, people commit suicide alone where they won't be discovered, for instance, in their home with the door locked and shut.

I find this very odd, Dr. Carla Manley. Absolutely. There is definitely something bizarre about the situation where there are two people present. One is not talking the other person out of committing suicide, but indeed what seems to have happened is that it was the person enabled, and that makes it a really suspicious situation. Right. You know, there's a fine line, Dr. Carla Manley, between enabled and murder. But long story short, I find it very, very unusual to Ashley Wilcott that there's a witness to a suicide.

I mean, I'll never forget, Ashley, never forget. David was coming home to New York, a bit out of town traveling. It was either right before or right after we had the twins. And he had taken a really early morning flight. He was getting back in to LaGuardia, like, you know, getting there at 7 or 8 in the morning. Anyway, he came to the door. I heard him, somebody at the door. I ran to the door to see who it was. The twins were asleep. And I opened the door. His face was as white as a sheet, Ashley. I said, what is it?

He said, I saw a guy jump off a bridge. So he had to be coming over the 59th Street Bridge to get to our place from LaGuardia. Anyway, I said, are you sure? And he went, yes. The guy had on a coat and I saw it fly up around him as he jumped. And that detail was so graphic. I mean, I knew that's what he had seen. It was not a mistake. I said, did you call police? He went, yes. I called police immediately and they were on their way. And before I got here, I heard sirens. So it just threw him off, and it threw me off to the point I still remember it. And Ashley, I recall my very, very dear friend in the cable TV business, Bob, we had known each other for years and years, And out of the blue, I find out he

committed suicide. He went swimming at night in the San Francisco Bay. Of course, I've never been convinced it was suicide, but it's just such a shock. My point is, Ashley, how could somebody stand by and let that happen? Well, what goes hand in hand with suicide, Nancy, is that you are by yourself or in the alternative. Sometimes you hear about more than one person, but they commit suicide together, right? So it doesn't make good common sense and it doesn't feel right that somebody else is present when there's a suicide and they survive because that's not typical. That's not usually what happens at all. Steve Lampley, you've been around the block a couple of times. What do you think about there being a witness to a suicide? I don't like it.

Well, Nancy, you're correct, but there are rare instances where, and I've never been on one of those, where an individual would be with someone attempting to talk them out, and they would just all of a sudden commit the act of suicide. Anyway, those are very, very rare. The closest that I have ever come to that in 21 years was attempting to serve a juvenile pickup order on a juvenile. And before I got to his bedroom, he committed suicide. He knew I was coming, but we didn't know he had a gun. But you're right, it's very, very rare for two individuals to be there and the other party actually commit suicide in their presence. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

A teen commits suicide. You know, I've got so many questions about it, and I'm going to circle back to Dr. Catherine Maloney regarding trajectory path and how you can really tell if this was a suicide. But with me, Fox 8 Cleveland investigative journalist Peggy Gallick. Peggy, okay, back to this. You're telling me they're out in like a nature preserve type park. They're about 20 miles outside of the city of Cleveland. They certainly wanted to get away.

I mean, it just seems to me that your friend would know you've got a gun and you're driving 20 miles away where nobody will be around. What time of the day or night was it? And how did this unfold, Peggy? This happened at night about 9, about 9.46 on July 12th. So it was just starting to get dark that, you know, that time of summer. And this was out in the picnic area, north of the picnic area at that reservation at the time. So they pretty much felt that they were going to be by themselves out in that area. Take a listen to what else we learned on the 911 call. I tried to drink. Pardon me? Yeah. I swallowed a bunch of pills. And so I went to get...

I pulled over because I had my phone in my trunk. Uh-huh. So I got out of the car to grab it. And he grabbed it, got out of the back seat, and he ran into the woods. This is none of your fault. None of your fault. You know that, right?

You know absolutely. Are you the friend who called Parma or brought the Knights police earlier? You know absolutely. Are you the friend who called Parma or Broadnights Police earlier? No. Did somebody else call? I believe so, yeah. I think they did. How old was your friend?

17. Okay. And he said he told you he was going to take some pills? He did take pills. And he did take pills. Okay. He was throwing up out the window of my car. Wow.

More of that heartbreaking 911 call. Now, you're hearing the voice of 19-year-old Duncan McElroy. Listen to more. How old are you, Duncan? 18. Oh, my goodness. He just popped the gun today because it was highly old enough to get one. But he just ran into the woods and he shot himself in the head. With his friend, yes. Okay. I can hear a siren. Nothing?

Okay. How do you spell your license plate? Y-O-U-R-o-c-k okay how'd you manage to get that colon my dad has had it for i don't know so long you're hearing more of that 911 call. We understand, according to the caller, that Ace, just a 17-year-old girl, swallowed a lot of pills. Then they pulled the car over to get the phone out of the trunk, and apparently, somehow, was there a gunshot wound? Peggy Gallick, Fox 8 Cleveland. How was the death, ostensibly a suicide, achieved? It was a gunshot. Ace, the 17-year-old died of a gunshot wound. And police then

arrived at the scene and tried to put this together. So with a gun, now on the phone, on the 911, you hear a lot about her, Ace, taking some pills. And I find that interesting in itself. Because in my mind, to ask you, Wilcott, if somebody, if my friend were stuffing pills down enough to kill themselves, I'd turn around and get to the ER pronto instead of continuing on. But that's not what happened. And according to the 911 call, it sounds like Ace grabbed a gun, ran into the woods and shot herself in the head. Now,

the whole thing's not fitting together for me, Ashley. No, not for me either. And keep in mind that friends know what other friends are going through and how they're feeling and what's going on with them. And so honestly, most people are good. Most people know if they have a friend that's going through these things, not only would they rush into the ER, call 911, they certainly would not keep a firearm somewhere that would even be accessible to their friend who may be struggling. Let me go now to Nickel City Deputy Chief Medical Examiner there at Erie County with Nickel City Forensics at the Erie County Medical Examiner's Office. You know her well, Dr. Catherine Maloney. Dr. Maloney, what are some of the ways you can look at this teen girl's dead body and

determine whether this was accident, murder, or suicide? Well, what you can look at is the location of the gunshot wound on the head. There are certain areas, especially when you have a long arm, like a shotgun, where it's easier to shoot oneself, whereas other areas of the head where it would be difficult, if not impossible, because of the way you have to kind of hold one arm out very far away from your head to get to the trigger because the barrel is so long. The other thing to look at is whether or not there's fouling or gunpowder in the wound or around the wound and the type of damage that was inflicted to the head.

Another issue when we're talking about homicide and suicide to Dr. Carla Manley, psychologist, you can find her at drcarlamanley.com, her new book, Aging Joyfully on Amazon. Dr. Carla, again, if you look at suicide statistics, it is extremely rare for a female to shoot themselves dead. I mean, suicide is definitely categorized by age, by gender, by race, by socioeconomic standards, by education, who kills themselves and how and where. It's almost unheard of for a female to shoot herself dead, Dr. Carla Manley. Those are the statistics. Does it happen? Sure.

Is it often? Very rarely. Which adds fuel to my flame of what really happened. Absolutely. When you look at what happened at her age, female identified as male, right, throwing up outside the window. That would be more consistent. Somebody who had taken pills, and I absolutely agree, turn around. You would normally take that young woman to an emergency facility.

But to have her shoot herself in the head, it doesn't make sense. Again, with the statistics, it's very inconsistent. Let's talk about the weapon to Peggy Gallick, Fox 8 Cleveland investigative journalist. What kind of weapon was it? Well, according to the report here, it was a rifle. It was a .22 LR caliber ammunition. That's what the report says. Wow. So talking about a rifle, back to you, Dr. Catherine Maloney, how hard is it to shoot yourself dead with a rifle, a long gun? I mean, just think this through. It's not like you hold a handgun up to your head and pull the trigger.

You have to turn the thing with the barrel pointing toward you and pull the trigger backwards, like, say, for instance, with your right thumb, pulling it back toward your index finger, and propping the gun up with your left hand if you're right-handed and then reverse if you're left-handed. I mean, that's not an easy thing to do, is it, Dr. Catherine Maloney? It's definitely a lot more difficult than it would be with a handgun, for sure. And there are also certain areas on the head where it would be nearly impossible to shoot oneself.

Obviously the back of the head and even the temple would be very difficult. Usually with long arms, you see people shoot themselves, you know, more, I guess, in the face or in the chin because that's easier. Yeah, and another thing Jackie Howard here in the studio is pointing out,

all this happened in the time the friend went to the car trunk. She got a gun, the victim, a stinger, got a gun, ran away, got to the woods, and shot herself in that brief amount of time. Okay, guys, let's go back to the moment. And the last of what we have with the 911 call. She was the one who told me that I could buy a gun at 18. Really? Yeah.

I wonder, I'm wondering now if they just did it so that he would have somebody with a gun. It's all not your fault. You know that. Crime Stories with a gun. Oh. It's all not your fault. You know that.. Do you have your headlights on your car, Duncan? No, my car is off. Can you turn them on for me?

Yeah. That might be able to help them find you a little quicker, okay? I think I see lights, but they're leaving again. What's that? I saw lights, but they got dark again. They went past him again. He can't tell me where he is. Okay, I'm not doubting the crying. The crying, that's a man crying. That's 19-year-old Duncan McElroy crying. But then suddenly when he's asked a question, he straightens up and gives a straight answer. Is it true Peggy Gallagher, these two only met about two weeks before the shooting? That's what he's telling police.

That's his statement to police. So, you know, they are still digging into this. It's still being investigated to see exactly when they met. They're going through social media to try to determine that, but that's what he told police. Are these two in a romance relationship, Peggy? He is saying no. But again, this is his statement to police, and he's given inconsistent statements to police according to the report. So we don't know the truth at this point, but he said no.

Wait a minute. You say there are inconsistent statements. What inconsistent statements? Well, please. Now, wait. Let me understand. Let me make sure I have this right. Sure.

To Ashley Wilcott. So these are two teams. The female victim, Ace Stinger, 17, and the young man, Duncan McElroy, the one crying on the phone, 19 years old, have only known each other two weeks. And he's saying it's not a romance or a sex relationship. And he's been caught an inconsistent statement. Something is not fitting together, Ashley. Yeah, no, something doesn't add up. And let me remind you, even though he's a young man at 19, the brain's not fully developed. So basically, you have two teenage brains, and there is something amiss. It doesn't identifies, she's a young girl, she's a young lady, she identifies as a man. And that adds a whole other layer of potential emotional issues.

How do I know if she hasn't been bullied? How do I know if people didn't make fun of her? How do I know if her family had rejected her to add to her emotional state, his emotional state? It's very confusing. And Dr. Carla Manley at drcarlamanley.com, psychologist and fear specialist, life is hard enough, especially for teens, right? Even for, I try to make everything, and I know a lot of people disagree with this, as simple and straightforward for the twins as I can. I try to give them a smooth road and help in absolutely any way I can, whether it's laying their clothes out in the morning or reminding them of their homework assignments to make their life a little bit easy because when they get older, life is going to be hard. It ain't easy punching a clock every day and making a living and putting up with just life

in general. Then you throw in identifying with the opposite gender, which has got to be emotionally trying. And you know know she's faced rejection, probably ridicule, people have mistreated her, and that adds a whole other layer for her, Dr. Carla Manley. Absolutely. When you add in the piece of gender identity issues, again, developmentally for a young person, brain not fully myelinated until they're 25, it's very difficult for them to not have.

Wait a minute. Are you telling me what Ashley Wilcott said is true? Absolutely. That the brain is not formed? I thought she was just saying that. It is not fully myelinated until 25, meaning it misfires a lot. Wait, what are you saying? Myelinated?

That sounds like laminated. What are you saying? The brain is not fully what? Myelinated. What are you saying? The brain is not fully what? Myelinated. So that the covering of the neural pathways doesn't allow for misfiring. So that you're thinking without your brain misfiring on you all the time. And so what happens? Well, Ashley, then apparently you're right.

Ashley, maybe that. And I've got lamination on my mind because John David nothing would do except we get a laminator and now we're laminating everything Ashley everything so you're right I was just gonna say did Nancy Grace say I was right on air can we just play that twice and I'll get off now okay good thanks yeah sadly sadly we're you know this is going straight out on the airway so I can't there's no way I can redact that. So you're right, Ashley, you win this round, but this is just the battle. It's just a skirmish.

There's the war to be had. Dr. Carla Manley, so what's your point? I think you're right, but what's your point you're getting at as it relates to a stinger, this girl? My point is twofold. A, you have the neurobiologically, you have the teenage years being rather unsteady. That part is normal. We expect that. Yet when you add in gender identity issues, the facts that go along with that, which are increased rates of bullying, if there is not adequate support at home, increased rates of suicidality, increased rates of anxiety and depression, and if they don't have friends who are supportive, then we have even

more issues because gender identity is a serious, serious mental health concern. And again, I want to point out, we are not in any way saying a mental health problem, like a mental illness. And I just find it very hard to believe that, um, when you have some type of an identity issue that how can we discount that we're on the outside looking in, that is what, how she felt, and we can't negate that. That is not a mental illness. That is how she saw the world. Now, I'm certainly not a shrink, and so I can't help, but I do know

I don't want this suggested to be any type of a mental illness or a defect. This is the way she was created. She was created to identify with a different gender. That's her business, not mine. My business is what happened. How did she end up dead? Now, Peggy Gallagher earlier had mentioned something about inconsistent statements. Could one of those be about the rifle? What did he first say? I'm talking about their little friend. Well, he's not little. He's 19 years old. Duncan McElroy, that's an adult under the law.

What did he say about where the rifle came from? As we remember, and we heard in that 911, he said that Ace stole the gun from the backseat, from the trunk, when he stopped at the road. Later, when he talked to police at the station after he was given his Miranda rights, he gave another statement. He then told police at that time. So he gets arrested and is given his Miranda rights. Yes.

So police had to think that he, Duncan McElroy, was involved. Okay, go ahead. Right. And first, he was voluntarily agreed to go to the Metro Parks to give another statement. Once he was there, they immediately gave him his Miranda rights. He then said that he purchased the box of the ammunition and the rifle on the same day, two separate purchases on July 12th, and that he provided the rifle and ammunition to Ace, who was sitting in his vehicle at the time of the purchase. Wow. Which is different than what he said on the 911 call.

That is a lot different. Let's take a listen to police talking to McElroy. Sit down. Did you see a firearm? Yeah, it's mine. Go ahead. Did you see a firearm? Yeah, it's mine. Is it back there? On him.

Okay, there's nothing on you. Let's go. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Did you see a firearm? Yeah, it's mine. Is it back there? On him. Okay, there's nothing on you, right?

Okay. What's this, your wallet? Yeah. All right. I can't own a firearm. A firearm is a handgun. You're hearing him speaking, and this is the person that we now know has been given Miranda rights, Duncan McElroy. Now, take a listen to our friend Hannah Catlett at 19 News. The man says everything unfolded when he pulled his car over inside the Brecksville reservation,

but police say there have been inconsistencies in his stories, and that's why he's now a suspect in this case. Police say the two had known each other for two weeks. Officers say McElroy tried to kill the victim four days before he made this phone call too. Just a short time before the call, police say McElroy told them he'd purchased a rifle and ammunition. Tonight he's facing murder charges and four counts of assisted suicide. The photo of this gorgeous young teen, Ace Stinger, found dead in Brecksville just outside of Cleveland. And she has got the most beautiful smile. She doesn't look sad or depressed, which of course is no indicator. I don't know what's going on in

her personal life behind closed doors but i just heard something that made me stop in my tracks peggy gallick fox 8 cleveland investigative journalist is it true that duncan mccalroy tried to kill a stinger four days before the report that I received said that the defendant tried to kill the defendant four days before. So police are giving me a little bit of different information than what I heard on there. They're saying that he tried to kill himself four days prior. Okay, that doesn't make sense to me. I'm looking at both of these and and they both are baby-faced. An Ohio man, just 19, now accused of helping a 17-year-old commit suicide by buying a gun and ammo, and has pled not guilty. But look at this evidence.

McElroy buys the gun, buys the ammo, drives Ace, the teen, to the Brecksville Reservation. It's like a nature preserve. Then helps the teen commit suicide by shooting in the head. I mean, when you lay it out like that, to Dr. Catherine Maloney, what more can you tell us about the forensics themselves? Well, really with the autopsy, I mean, you could try looking for trace evidence and try looking at the characteristics of the wound to see if you can tell something about range of fire. That would be pretty suspicious as opposed to a close range.

And that's really the type of information you're going to get from performing an autopsy. Absolutely. For instance, if Duncan McElroy, now charged with murder and assisted suicide, had gunshot residue on himself, that means he is at least 36 inches close to the shooting, because that's about how far gunshot residue, it's like baby powder, can travel at the time a weapon is fired. To Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, you can find her at ashleywilcott.com. Do you believe, based on what you know about the case, there is enough evidence to convict him?

I do think that there's enough evidence to convict him of some crime. For instance, assistance with suicide. Whether or not there is enough evidence to convict him of murder is specifically going to depend on the forensics because I need to know a little more information about were his fingerprints on the gun? What was he doing specifically? And then maybe. I'm very curious about what she just said, if there are fingerprints on the gun and what more forensically do we know to Peggy Gallick,

Fox 8 Cleveland. Peggy, what do we know about forensics? Right now, we don't know too much because that's still under investigation. We've been trying to get the autopsy report and some other information from that, and we haven't been able to get it yet. It should be released in the next few weeks because this is going on in court right now. So, of course, the defense attorney is putting in requests to get that information from the prosecutor. So we should be seeing that sometime soon. There are also four counts of assisted suicide. So let me understand something. Ashley Wolcott is the murderer?

Would the murderer merge under the law with assisted suicide, or will they be standalone counts? For instance, let's just say I shoot Jackie here in the studio. Shoot her dead. Sorry, Jackie. It was nice shoot Jackie here in the studio. Shoot her dead. Sorry, Jackie. It was nice knowing you. You're wonderful. Rest in peace. I wish you only the best in the next life. But the aggravated assault of me holding the gun up and scaring her merges with the murder. So there won't be two different sentences on that. So in this case, do you believe assisted suicide would merge in that manner with murder? I don't. And here's why. Because in the state of Ohio,

assisted suicide or assisting suicide means knowingly helping the parent, excuse me, the person, not the parent, helping the person commit or attempt suicide versus the murder statute that specifically requires that it was an intentional killing. And so I do not think it would merge. That's my interpretation of the statute. I'm very curious why they are not releasing any more information. What more evidence, if any, do they have, Peggy Gallop, to show a murder? Well, right now, the police are saying, you know, he provided that inconsistent statement. So that put up their red flags right away. So they brought him in to talk to him more. And he gave the police more information that, you know, he did get that

gun that day, that he actually provided the rifle and ammunition to her when she was sitting in the car. So that was enough for them to arrest him. After that time, he got a couple lawyers and quit talking to police. So they are still putting this all together, going through computers and phones to try to get this. It's in court right now. The prosecutors actually wanted to revoke his bond last week, and they were able to work something out with the judge, but they've added to his bond requirement that he's not allowed to talk to any minor or any high school student other than his siblings, which I thought was very interesting that they added that as part of his,

you know, bond to let him get out. And he is at a facility right now, a mental health facility. Peggy Gallick, just to muddy the water, is it true that Duncan McElroy is also charged with pandering obscenity involving a minor? Yes, it is. Absolutely. He is facing one kind of that, you know, the four counts of the assisted suicide, also furnishing the firearm to a minor, but also that pandering obscenity is definitely included in that. I mean, what are the facts surrounding the pandering obscenity? Police aren in that. I mean, what are the facts surrounding the pandering obscenity? Police aren't giving us too much on that at this point, other than he had some sort of images in his phone or his computer.

That's all that they're telling us at this time. I will tell you that adding fuel to the flame is the fact of an alleged murder attempt four days before the shooting. So we'll see how this all pans out in a court of law. To Ashley Wolcott, do you believe that there is a dangerous trend of assisted suicides now? Well, you know, I don't know that there's any more of a trend than there ever was or that it wasn't happening before. Rather, I think the distinction is now the law is looking at it and actually charging those who are assisting with murder or assisting with suicide. So we know this is the second case that you've covered specifically and the young lady that was texting her boyfriend in the car who then committed suicide. So I think the trend now is as a society, we're not going to put up with this. These are

going to be individuals that are going to face criminal charges if they make the decision to help their friend do these things. Do you believe Dr. Carla Manley, psychologist, fear specialist at drcarlamanley.com that treatment should be harsher or less harsh on people that assist with suicide. I think that it's important to look at the circumstances. And I think that if it's something that's been, that's difficult because if it's a life-threatening situation, somebody who's suffering from cancer, that sort of thing, that's considered, you know, assisted suicide, right? But in this case, where it's a teen, where there are alternatives, where there is help available for whatever unrest is going on, I think that that's an incredibly serious action and something that is very close, if not akin to murder.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.