Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Teen girl goes on high school trip, never seen alive again. Mom and Dad devastated. Natalee Holloway, NEW developments

Episode Date: January 27, 2020

It's been nearly 15 years since Natalee Holloway disappeared while on a trip with classmates to Aruba. Although the case remains unsolved, her family has never given up. Can new developments lead to her whereabouts?Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Rahul D. Manchanda, Esq: International Law Expert, author of "Deep State Defector I, II & III" Steven Lampley: Former Detective & author of “Outside Your Door”  Dr. Bethany Marshall: Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills Karen Smith: Forensics Expert, Bare Bones Consulting   Anne Emerson: WCIV ABC 4 Charleston reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Imagine pouring all your love, all your energy, your time, your money, your heart into raising your child, getting her through high school, with college ahead. She's an honor student, of course. She goes on her senior trip, and she's never seen alive again. Of course, I'm talking about the Alabama brainy beauty, Natalie Holloway. And in the last hours, more developments. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This beautiful Alabama girl leaves on her senior trip to Aruba and disappears.

Natalie Ann Holloway, last seen driving away from a local nightclub. She was just away on her high school senior trip. She has disappeared. Three guys escorted Natalie from a restaurant bar, Carlos and Charlie's, her last night there on Aruba before she was supposed to leave the next morning. These are the guys she was last seen with. This statement that the boy, Vander Sloot, says, I took her down to the beach.

It was around 2 a.m., and she wanted to stay there, so I left her there alone. This girl, a teen girl, beautiful, brilliant. You know, everyone still has in their mind the picture of her out on the football field in her drill outfit, doing a dance routine with all of her friends. Her body never recovered. Her whereabouts never known. The latest in the search for Natalie Holloway. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being Holloway. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, an all-star panel, starting with Raul Manchanda, attorney, international law expert, author of Deep State Defector. You can find it at manchanda-law.com. Steve Lampley, detective, author of Outside Your Door at stephenlampley.com. Psychoanalyst joining us out of LA, Dr. Bethany Marshall at DrBethanyMarshall.com. Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of Beer Bones Consulting. But right now to WCIV ABC4 Charleston reporter Anne Emerson. Anne, the pain of Natalie's disappearance never goes away. And if anyone is expecting Jorn Vandersloot, a two-time killer, the judge's son, who got special treatment in Aruba because his dad's a judge, to ever tell what happened to Natalie, that ain't going to happen, Ann Emerson.

Nancy, this case has just transfixed America, the media, anyone who could relate to this. It was the idea of losing your child on a senior trip as they're just about to embark on their whole life. It was just it was more than anyone in America could even bear at the time. And we all felt like we were part of the parent's search for for this child. It was unbelievable that just one every step they took trying to get this investigation underway, it was on some level impeded, as you said, because he had special privileges on the island, and confusing. And it was just like unwrapping this really, really complicated package that we're still unpacking. For those of you that recall the disappearance of Natalie Holloway, the American girl,

straight-A student, athlete, set to go to college to study pre-med, goes missing on her high school senior trip that was heavily chaperoned. Take a listen to our friend Rick Sanchez. Natalie, you can reach me on your cell phone. I have it, and it's set up for international use now. And I will stay here until I find you, Natalie. A mother's desperate plea for her missing daughter. Natalie Holloway was among more than 100 seniors on a graduation trip to Aruba.

They're just typical high school girls. Out on the beach. On the beach, having a good time on their senior trip. There's nothing unusual. Thousands and thousands of kids go on senior trips every summer, and they should. I mean, these kids are growing up. Marsha Twitty is Natalie's aunt. She says nobody seemed to notice that when the friends left the nightclub, Natalie wasn't with them. Everybody thought everybody had each other, because there's a

bunch of them, a bunch. It wasn't, you know, 20 or so. There's a whole bunch of kids. And they all kind of, you know, went in, went to bed that night. It wasn't until people started waking up Monday morning, ready to return to Birmingham, that they realized she was missing. And, of course, practically one year to the day later, another young girl ends up dead at the hands of jordan vandersloot stephanie tassiano flores a gorgeous young girl meets him in the casino by the time he's done with her she's dead in the floor of his hotel room he even goes out for coffee in a danish and comes back to the room and drinks the coffee and eats the danish about two feet away from her dead body on the floor.

But how did Natalie Holloway seemingly slip through everyone's fingers? Take a listen to her friend, Frances. Natalie's friend, Frances, was staying in an adjacent room. What did it feel like Monday morning when you guys were all getting ready to go and you realized that she wasn't around? We immediately knew something was wrong because her roommates knocked on my door and said that they didn't know where she was. We went straight to the chaperones and they immediately started working on it. They suspected Natalie was still on the island because in her room they...

Found her luggage. Right. Found her passport. Right. But no Natalie. Aruban authorities have been joined by the FBI in the search. So far, there has been little to go on. Three Aruban students did tell investigators, though, that they dropped Natalie off that night at her hotel. But something about that story doesn't sit right with Natalie's aunt. Well, it certainly didn't sit right, and that story quickly changed. Right now, we know Jorn Vandersloot is sitting in a jail in

Peru for the murder of Stephanie Tassiana Flores, another young girl he killed, I believe, to the day that Natalie goes missing. Joining me, Raul de Manchanda, attorney, international law expert, author of a book series, Deep State Defector. Raul, thank you again for being with us. Explain to me the legal mechanics about how Jorn Vandersloot can ever be brought to justice

for Natalie's murder. In this case, it was a hallmark case in the sense of international law, and it kind of held up foreign investigatory bodies to a scrutiny of the standard maintained by the U.S. The FBI, for example, Secret Service had gotten involved because they were so frustrated with the relative slowness and laxity of the local Aruban investigation. And I really believe in retrospect hindsight that all the stuff that happened, the Peruvian angle, you know, all these other issues really are sort of an offshoot of the,

you know, really lack of ability in the first 48, as they would say, to really get a handle on this case. It seemed to me that this, you know, like you said, there was issues about the judge being his father, there was corruption issues, maybe assistance by local police departments or investigatory bodies. But this case really just ran away from the local investigations. And now look at where we are. I mean, he's sitting in Peru in a jail. Another woman has been murdered because of this. So this guy really needed to be dealt with in the first 48, especially the evidence.

So remember back then we had discussed this. The other issue is, you know, in terms of extradition to the U.S., if there's a nexus to the United States, which it seems like there is, with this extortion money, which, you know, he received the money and is now spending it, that would be enough for personal and subject matter jurisdiction. And in which case, I mean, if there's enough energy behind it, they could issue a warrant. I think that that actually did take place. So there is certainly enough of a jurisdictional nexus between the United States and the individual, as well as the crime that took place, because there is a sufficient nexus there. So it wouldn't even be a stretch. What Raul D. Manchanda is talking about, renowned attorney and author of a book series, Deep State Defector, is, for instance, let's just use Jackie Howard

again, who's here in the studio looking guilty about something. Let's just pretend she robs a gas station in Pennsylvania and then leaves the state. She, let's just pretend, is a citizen of California. Can Pennsylvania drag her back to be tried? Yes, they can. Because there's subject matter jurisdiction, they have a right to prosecute crimes that happen in Pennsylvania. The subject would be the armed robbery. Personal jurisdiction would be, can they make her come back? Can they extradite her back? Yes, because she has sufficient contacts in Pennsylvania in that she went there and robbed a gas station.

I'm pretty sure that was you, Jackie Howard. So that's what Roland Monchana is talking about, that the U.S. could conceivably extradite Jorn Vandersloot. So in that line of reasoning under a very, very famous case, International Shoe, which went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, there are sufficient contacts for Jorn Vandersloot to come back to the U.S. and be tried in connection with Natalie's death. He killed a U.S. citizen,

and it would have to be proven he had enough contacts in the U.S. to do it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Jenga Sars, who has been in the prison where Vandersloot was housed, how is it that your Vandersloot has managed to have conjugal visits behind bars, get a woman pregnant, and now they're marrying? You know, Nancy, when I was in Castro Castro, the prison environment, the prison rules and regulations, they are so different.

Their philosophy is you keep the crime outside, you build a new life, literally right at this point, inside. And so there are conjugal visits. They can have that. Families can bring in homemade food. They wear their street clothes in the prison. Of course, I happen to see some knives come out of those street clothes as they're walking around in there, but it's just a totally different environment.

So this is not unexpected. You are listening to HLN. To Ann Emerson, WCIV ABC 4 Charleston reporter. Ann, tell me about Jorn Vandersloot's life behind bars in Peru. Oh, you know, he has been public in some ways. I mean, you know, there's he he said that he was in a prison when he first got put into prison for killing this woman, Stephanie Flores, this young 21 year old that he had confessed to killing. He said that the prison official at the original prison had him moved to even more maximum security prison higher up in the Andes. He also said that he had a cell phone

from one of the prison officials. So we've seen pictures of him. Well, hold on, Ann Emerson. It can't be that maximum security because he got somebody pregnant while he was in jail you're absolutely right and this woman it from what I understand she was coming into the prison selling uh goods is the way it was described and reported this was a woman who had been coming in and and selling things to officials I suppose guards the and and somehow she was able to get close enough contact to have a relationship with vandersloot whoa wait a minute ann emerson joining me wciv abc for charleston what was she selling to people behind bars because you know it wasn't just to jail officials there's probably to anybody that could afford it well we're what we what we've been been reported so far is that it

was just things. This was a woman who was, for all intents and purposes, allowed to be in that prison. And because we know who she is and she hasn't been arrested for being in that prison. So obviously it was under the prisoner, the guard's request that she was there. But what we do know is that she has now said that she got pregnant and they got married in 2014. They even, from what I understand, the name of the child is she's named after Joran Vandersloot's grandmother. Oh, my. Yeah. We just heard Raul Manchanda state that Joran Vandersloot had gotten extortion money.

What's he talking about, Ann Emerson? Oh, the extortion money what's he talking about ann emerson of extortion money well what happened was he had contacted a lawyer uh from beth holloway twitty uh she was remarried and beth twitty would had contacted a lawyer on her side and had said that he had information now this is when he was in aruba. And when he wanted to he wanted to give them the where the their daughter's remains were. He said he knew where her remains were. And for two hundred fifty thousand dollars, that information could be theirs. But I don't think at any point the mother was looking to get some to get the truth out of him because he had been so untruthful all of these years. It was just lie after lie. This was about actually trying to catch Joran van der Sloot and bring him to justice.

And this extortion plan was walks that just going all the way with the FBI, trying to make sure that they got him. Now, we're talking about $250,000. She actually did a test about what the wire that he asked for that to transfer money. And she spent out, she, she just sent a hundred dollars to see if it actually worked and it did. And that sort of, that was the catalyst to kind of go into this whole wire fraud extortion scheme and, and a sting with the FBI. They set it up. They got $10,000 to Jorn Vandersloot. They were transferring $15,000, and that was the deal, $25,000 ahead of time. Somehow, Vandersloot gets the money and escapes Aruba with Beth's money. He's now on his way

to another country, and they don't have Vandersloot. And of course, now we know what he did with that money and where he ended up. So Jorn Vandersloot absconded with $25,000 from Beth Holloway Twitty. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining me out of Beverly Hills. Dr. Bethany, I will never forget that painful interview

where Beth travels to Peru, confronts, and you know, everybody trashes Beth because cameras were rolling. And you know what else, Dr. Bethany Marshall? A lot of people trash Natalie's dad because he cooperated with Oxygen to do a series on trying to find Natalie's remains. I think that's very, very hateful. And I'll tell you why. If your child was missing, you never had answers, and a network or producers come to you and say,

Hey, we will foot the bill for you to fly to Aruba or fly to Peru and confront your invaders suit or to the dad help us look for her remains we've got tips that her bones are in this location will you do it and we will foot the bill for the investigation and flying you there no matter how many weeks it takes. What parent in their right mind wouldn't say, yes, of course I'll do it. Because a search like that for her remains, Bethany, I can tell you, got to cost 500 grand to take him down there and stay for, you know, months on end or however long it took to have a crew, a geologist, a boat captain, investigators, all that, that costs money, money that regular people don't have. Same thing for flying Beth all the way to Peru, getting her housed at a hotel,

getting her into the prison, all that. And I really, I would do anything to get answers if my child was missing. I really hate the way people attack them, Bethany. Well, not only that, Nancy, compound that with the fact that they probably had to give up their jobs. They probably lost relationships within their community because they couldn't keep in touch with friends. Their whole life was organized around the search for their daughter. So you're right. A network approaches them, says we will foot the bill for you to go and find your daughter. And of course, they are going to expand their resources in whatever way they can. Now, add to that Nancy, that she went to Peru and she faced Dorne. I remember the videotape, we covered it extensively on your show on HLN.

And can you imagine losing Lucy or John David? And then you actually have to go. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Bethany, do you know, as late as yesterday, I was doing an interview. And it was supposed to be about finding missing children and solving unsolved homicides. And out of the blue, the reporter got on the murder of my fiance and yes I know it was a long time ago but when you're not ready you're not thinking about it you're having a perfectly fine day and somebody brings that up and he brought it up in kind of a mean way too um he said you always said your fiance's murder was random but it's been reported that in fact, the killer worked at the same place as your fiance. And out of the blue, it's kind of an attack. And there was more to it than that, by the way. But I said, yeah, yeah, this is what happened. I was

told by the prosecutor that Keith got his job on a construction crew one summer. And shortly before Keith started, this guy that murdered him had been fired. So he and Keith never crossed paths. That's what I was told by the prosecutor. And then one day the guy shows up out in the middle of nowhere on a construction site and opens fire on the company truck and Keith was driving.

That's how he was killed. So they did not know each other. And he just confronted me about many facts surrounding Keith's murder. I finally quit the interview, Bethany, because it got me so upset. Now, how long is that? That was in 1979. Now, can you imagine Beth confronting Jorn Vandersloot and getting nothing, by the way, his usual lies, and the dad going to Aruba with oxygen and going through all that, finding the location where the bones allegedly were, finding bones, finding remains. And thinking, oh, maybe, maybe, maybe.

And then the test. And then it's negative. Those people have been through hell, Bethany. Nancy, because it's false hope again and again. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This beautiful Alabama girl leaves on her senior trip to Aruba and disappears. Natalie Ann Holloway, last seen driving away from a local nightclub. She was just away on her high school senior trip.

She has disappeared. Three guys escorted Natalie from a restaurant bar, Carlos and Charlie's, her last night there on Aruba before she was supposed to leave the next morning. These are the guys she was last seen with. This statement that the boy, Vander Sloot, says, I took her down to the beach. It was around 2 a.m. and she wanted to stay there, so I left her there alone. Stephen Lampley, Raul Menchanda said something really important. Well, he said a lot of important things, but he also said the case was screwed up with Natalie in the first 48. Explain what Raul Menchanda, who's an international law expert, was talking about.

Nancy, if you're talking about the first 48, that is the most important time frame for any investigation. It's sort of like the golden hour for EMTs. It's just the time frame for any investigation. It's sort of like the golden hour for EMTs. It's just the time frame that we want to be fully active. We want to pull out all the resources and we want to try to find everything we can in the first 48 hours because it's just the matter of life. After 48 hours, the propensity to solve the crime lessens with every hour thereafter. And to Karen Smith, forensics expert, the founder of Bare Bones Consulting, Karen Smith, to this day, we don't really know what happened to Natalie Holloway. Ultimately, Jorn Vandersloot changed his story. There was a wire put in an SUV he was in, and he's, of course, speaking in Dutch, the language

at Neville and Antilles, including Aruba, and he basically said she started foaming at the mouth and shaking and she died on the beach he said he rejected sex with her and just left that's basically generally I mean he's told so many different stories I may be crossing my wires but will we ever really know we can't count on anything VanderSloot says first of all you think he would say no to sex with Natalie Holloway? No. I firmly believe he slipped something in her drink at Carlos and Charlie's. She had never left before with unknown men ever in her life. She's just a kid. And I think that she was killed or died on the beach and that he raped her. Listen, that's a completely plausible explanation. And Jorn Van Der Sloot has given story after story and false lead after false lead. He was toying with police, and he continues to, to this day. Natalie Holloway, I don't know that her remains will ever be found at this point. It's been almost 15 years.

Aruba is a very small island off the coast of Venezuela. It's only 20 miles long by six miles wide. In United States speak, that is a relatively small area for a search. You have it. Obviously, it's an island. It's surrounded by beaches, surrounded by water. So there is a lot of ground to cover. But like Stephen Lampley and Raul said, the first 48 were critical.

I'm not going to say any ball was dropped. I know that they used a lot of resources to try and find her. But what really frustrates me is the fact that were put toward her search, I don't know that they went to the areas that were accessible by car. Were they accessible on foot? We don't know if Joran Vandersloot was telling the truth that he was with these two other men and they drove somewhere, or did they walk somewhere? So that whole pattern of a search area, I don't know how that was worked from the beginning. Well, we know they left. Let's go to Ann Emerson, WCIV ABC for Charleston. And again, thanks for being with us. Ann, they left Carlos and Charlie's in a small car. And Jorn Vandersloot was with Natalie Holloway and two other guys, the Calpo brothers.

And that's the last she was seen alive, Ann Emerson. What have been Jorn Vandersloot's changing stories over time? You know, he has been moving these stories according to what seems to suit him. He has claimed that she, well, let's start where he said he started. At the very beginning, Nancy, the first time we hear from him, he told investigators that he dropped her off at the hotel and that she had stumbled back when she was getting out of the car and that two men that were dressed in what he thought were security guard uniforms helped her up. But he had just left her. He saw her sort of stumble out of the car and he drove off with his two buddies who were brothers. Oh, and I remember.

Don't you remember? I remember this like it was yesterday. Raul Manchanda, that the security guards first came under suspicion, just like Ann Emerson is saying, because Jorn Vandersloot said they helped her. She was last spotted with them. They came under suspicion. Remember that? There could have been innocent people going to jail. And everybody's saying the authorities helped.

The authorities did not help. They didn't do a darn thing in Aruba. That's right. That's right. And that goes to what we talked about earlier, that just too much time was given. Too many stories were vetted. Too many. It was just trial and error.

And you got that judge kind of ring leading the whole thing, you know, and these investigators, who do you think they're beholden to? Do you think they're beholden to the foreign media, foreign law enforcement? No, they're beholden to the power structure of that particular island, which is extremely small and close-knit. And so everyone's got a finger in their pockets, and everyone's coming for each other, and the stories are getting vetted and re-vetted and changed all over again. It was absolutely a disastrous investigation,

and that was what we were talking about when it first happened. And this is, look what's happened today. We've got a fruit of the poisonous tree in the sense of a terrible investigation. It's just out of control. Just crazy what happened. What went wrong with that investigation, Steve Lampley? Where did it go wrong? I mean, of course, it started off wrong.

Well, Nancy, I think that's right. It did start off wrong. And that pretty much set the stage for the rest of the investigation. We go back to the first 48. Once you stall 48 hours, you know, you take what you get. You start at Carlos and Charlie's where she was last seen. You talk to the people that were there that night. Did you see her leave? Did you see who she was with? Yes, she was with three men. She got into a car. Where did that car go? We're dealing with 2005. There weren't cameras around like there are now. We can't go anywhere without being on camera. In 2005, There weren't cameras around like there are now.

We can't go anywhere without being on camera. In 2005, it wasn't like that. So you would have to just take the investigation from Carlos and Charlie's and branch out from there. You know, how long was Joran van der Sloot gone? How long were these other two men gone? You can get a radius to start a search. All of those things, it seems like that ball was just dropped from the get-go. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The news is stunning to hear that Joran van der Sloot may have killed another young woman five years to the day after the disappearance of Natalie Holloway. Stephanie Flores was the only daughter in a family of boys, and she was truly her father's pride and joy. Ricardo Flores is a well-known figure in Peru. He is a former race car driver. He had been a politician.

Stephanie and her father had a very tight bond. She wanted to be a businesswoman, an entrepreneur like her father, and he fostered that. They were cut from the same cloth, and everybody in the family knew that. On June 2, 2010, Stephanie Flores has been missing for three days. Her distraught family has been searching everywhere. And then sadly, she is found dead by an employee in the hotel tech.

You are listening to our friends at ABC. Five years to the day after Natalie Holloway disappears, Vandersloot bludgeoned Stephanie Tassiano-Flores to death in a Lima hotel room. To Ann Emerson, WCIV, ABC4 Charleston, as I recall it, Stephanie met him, beautiful brunette girl, dad, a business person, very well respected in the area, meets him at a casino, and they hit it off. They go back to his hotel room for a few drinks. He catches her online looking him up, and we believe she questioned him, a question about Natalie Holloway, and he bludgeoned her dead. That's basically what happened, probably raped her too. But that's what happened. As I recall, to Stephanie Tassiano-Flores, Ann Emerson, what do you know? You know, and it's interesting because

there's also a theory that once again, he was trying to flex responsibility of this murder somewhere else. It's considered the coffee story. We talked about this earlier. He had gone off to get a cup of coffee, and he comes back with the coffee. But he says that he got locked out of his room. And he asked for somebody, reportedly he asked for somebody at the front desk to walk him back up to the hotel room and let him in with the idea that maybe suspicion could go in a different direction, right? Because something's already happened to Stephanie Flores in that room, and he knows it. But supposedly that door doesn't open all the way, and he doesn't get his wish, so he just decides to move on.

And then ends up, we do get a confession from him he says he does say that he he killed her but he he tries to take that back he also tried to take back that confession from what we understand um from the judge but but the judge said it was valid and he was gonna he was gonna stick to it we are talking about the disappearance of natalie holloway who i firmly believe has long been dead. There were many other investigations as to whether she was sold into sex trafficking, whether she was being held hostage. I don't think any of that is true. Raul D. Manchanda joining me, international law expert, author of a book series, Deep State Defector.

What is life like for him in that Peruvian prison? Well, you know, I'm sure it's not going to be great, but at the same time, you know, it is a South American situation, probably, you know, in the outskirts of the country where there's a lot of corruption, rightful corruption out there, as opposed to an American federal or state prison, which, of course, obviously has its own. But I'm sure out there, because his father was a judge, I'm sure his reach goes pretty far in terms of administration. So I would venture a guess and say it's probably not as bad as we all think it might be in terms of the accoutrements and what he might be getting out there.

I would assume that the father, being who who he was to have him shielded for so long i wouldn't doubt it's a phone call to his name however there were some stories that the father of the girl that was murdered uh was very very angry there's rumor mongering of course going on that the ten thousand dollar reward was placed to have jordan vanderley murdered in prison now whether or not that's true or not the father has denied that uh you know well we do know that he's still alive and whining about life behind bars but he was laughing and grinning the last time that a uh hidden camera interview went down that was around 2016. The whining goes on. He has two roommates, but apparently he has a special area in his cell and he has more room than anyone else. He has books. He's married. He gets conjugal

visits. He gets drugs and alcohol behind bars. I don't know how he does that. What do you know, Ann Emerson, about his life behind bars? What we're hearing is that he does have a very lax situation at prison, that, you know, he's able to get through. He's able to get food from home. He's able to get clothes. He gets special favors. Like you said, he gets conjugal visits. He gets street clothes, from what we understand, which means that he doesn't have to wear the same prison uniform. In a very different way as well, he's also on these international charges.

I mean, we understand that he is still facing extradition after he serves his 28-year sentence. He still has, but this gives him, I would think, a level of celebrity status within the prison of who he is and what he's done. He's just, he's not just like every other prisoner, but, and he is treated specially and he gets, he gets what he gets some special, um, he, it looks like he's getting special treatment on some levels. Um, I hear you, Ann. I don't know how special any of us would consider it though, to be up at the Alcatraz of the Andes. It's up in the Andes mountains. It's cold. And there may be some truth to what Rahul Manchanda said, that there's a hit on him placed by Stephanie Tosiano Flores' father. Because he apparently has been stabbed five times behind bars. And talk about lax security. Bethany Marshall, what I wonder about very often is how the parents, how Beth and Mr. Holloway go on. How do they do it, Bethany?

Well, what I'm struck by is that they are still observing Jordan Vandersloot's offending pattern. Think about it. He was sort of the big man on campus in this very small island, right? And he probably refined his offending pattern very early. All these girls would come over on spring break. He would ply them with alcohol, date rape drugs, rape them. And he had probably been doing this for a number of years, even though he was just a teenager. Natalie was just the first one who died. There were victims who came before. Then a year after Natalie's death, he bludgeoned Stephanie Flores to death. Where did he meet her? In a casino. What did he do? Probably plied her with drinks, brought her back to the room.

So the offending pattern continues. Now the offending pattern continues behind bars. He targets the woman who comes in to sell goods to the other inmates and he's procuring goods for her from her, has conjugal visits, has sex, is able to take her back to the hole as they call it or wherever his room is. So as a parent, I mean, to speak to your question, there would be so many conflicting feelings, you know, grief, loss, rage, having to witness this travesty again and again. But what do they think about this young woman behind bars who's pregnant? I mean, did you see her picture? She's very young. She's about 24 years old. She's an accounting assistant. So obviously,

she has some sort of an education. What if he bludgeoned her to death? What if she's the next victim? So I think what's probably difficult for them is that the saga continues. It's never, ever over. Well, an interesting thing now that he has had a baby with a Peruvian citizen, he can fight extradition. They don't have to just hand him over because he can be a Peruvian citizen, he can fight extradition. They don't have to just hand him over because he can be a Peruvian citizen. Before he gets that citizenship, that formal citizenship, they'll get rid of him, kick him out, happy to get rid of him. But once he becomes a citizen, it will be a lot harder for him to get extradited to the U.S. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.