Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TEEN SON SAYS MOM 'FELL ON KNIFE' A YEAR AFTER HE SHOT DAD DEAD, MOM'S LAST TEXT REVEALED

Episode Date: September 25, 2024

Polk County Sheriff's deputies respond to a 911 call from a home in Auburndale, Florida. Inside, they find 39-year-old Catherine Griffith lying face down with a kitchen knife in her neck. She is pronounced dead at the scene. Investigators begin canvassing the neighborhood to determine what led to Catherine's death. The case background begins when, after 20 years of marriage, Catherine Griffith leaves her husband, Charles Griffith. She alleges that Charles abused her and their two sons, Christopher and Collin, for years. Christopher, 20, no longer lives at home, but custody disputes arise over 13-year-old Collin, who goes to live with his father in Oklahoma. Catherine claims Charles cut off her contact with Collin after he begged her to rescue him, accusing her ex-husband of "holding Collin hostage" since he came out as gay. Charles, however, contends that Collin no longer wants contact with Catherine because she is "unstable" and that he restricted communication after Catherine sent Collin a photo of a handwritten suicide note. A judge rules that Collin will remain in Oklahoma with his father. Tensions escalate on Valentine’s Day when Collin calls 911 to report he shot and killed his father. He tells the operator his father attacked him and chased him with a knife through their home. When cornered in a bedroom, Collin says he grabbed a shotgun and shot Charles in self-defense. Investigators, unable to rule out self-defense based on the 911 call and home evidence, send Collin to live with his mother in Florida. Catherine's social media posts suggest she and Collin are happy together, as they travel to Washington D.C., take a Disney cruise, and celebrate Collin’s early graduation and his first car purchase. However, friends and family describe a more troubled relationship. Collin frequently argues with his mother and struggles with his mental health. On September 6, Collin leaves after a disagreement over household chores and goes to his grandmother's house. Despite several attempts to bring Collin home, Catherine confides in a neighbor about her exhaustion in dealing with her son. She texts that she has cleared out Collin’s room and will not allow him back without her permission. The neighbor also tries to convince Collin to return, but he ignores her. Catherine says she plans to meet Collin at his grandmother’s home the following day as a last-ditch effort to bring him back before he misses a probation meeting, warning that if he doesn't comply, law enforcement will intervene. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Peter Odom - Partner at Price Benowitz LLP  Washington DC; Former Homicide Prosecutor Dr. Jorey Krawczyn – Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. – Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide”  Robin Dreeke – Behavior Expert & Retired FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: “Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;” X: @rdreekeke Dr. Priya Banerjee – Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting; X: @Autopsy_MD Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’;" IG: @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A teen son says mommy fell on a knife this one year after he shoots dad dead. Tonight, mommy's last texts revealed. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I don't even know what to say. Really, am I left speechless? A kitchen knife plunged in her neck. And when police arrived, it's still protruding from mommy's neck. Not one, but two stabs. I got to think about that. The two stabs.

Many people will argue a fight broke out. It was a heated argument. I was out of my mind with anger, but the law says premeditation can be formed in an instant. The twinkling of an eye, a moment, as long as it takes to raise the gun and pull the trigger, for instance. The fact that there were two stabs means there's time to form intent. Who stabbed mom? Joining me, an all-star panel. But first, before I get into the facts, I want to go out to a renowned veteran trial lawyer, a partner at Price Benowitz, leading criminal defense attorney with a law firm in D.C., and former homicide prosecutor. Joining me, Peter Odom. Peter, don't even you have to agree that intent can be formed,

as the law said. I'm sure you recall Judge Luther Alverson, as he would tell juries, in the twinkling of an eye, his words, not mine, and it upheld scrutiny all the way up to the appellate courts. Wouldn't you agree with that? I agree with that. But I don't think that's where this case is headed. This is not going to be a case about intent, Nancy. This is going to be a case about mental illness and of course i mean this is a terrible tragedy many times over and what's terribly tragic about is that two parents are dead at the hands of their own child um what really compounds this tragedy though is that this was entirely preventable, particularly the second murder. Colin Griffiths suffered from a severe mental illness. Hold on, hold on.

Peter, Peter, I respect your prowess in the courtroom, but can you hear yourself? This was entirely preventable, especially that second murder. Okay, let that ring in your ears for just a few moments. Because when police got there, the son, the teen son who had just been given a new car by mommy, as a matter of fact, right before she was stabbed, she, okay, she even went the extra mile and got the big red bow to put on it. I know all about that. Oh, look, there they are. She's taking him everywhere. Just before she was murdered, she shared a photo of herself and her son. Then, bam, she's dead. You know, Peter, you know my children. How many hundreds, thousands have photos have I forced you and others to look at of me with John David, me with Lucy, me with the twins.

Here we're at Six Flags. Here we're at Grandma's. Blah, blah. She just posted one of those and then bam, she's dead. Oh, it's horrible, Nancy. It's terrible. It's a terribly violent death. And what compounds it is that he killed his own father under what have to be described as suspicious circumstances just a year and a half ago.

But I don't see this case heading toward a... I guess you're going to claim he was mentally ill then, too. Well, absolutely. You know, Nancy, this teen has been twice involuntarily hospitalized under Florida's Baker Act. You know, you don't get involuntarily hospitalized if you're not let out twice. And that's what I mean when I say that tragedy is compounded by negligence by the state. This teen should have been hospitalized. He should have been segregated from society. And yet this killer fish was put back into the tank twice.

They knew he had violent tendencies. OK, so Peter Odom. So when he comes out, when he walks out and he sees police, he says, oh, and this is after making a completely coherent 911 call, going, my mom is bleeding from the neck. You need to come take care of her. And when he came out, he not only came out completely calm, cool, and collected, he had the wherewithal to lie. Now, I'm going to go to our shrink, Dr. Jory Crawson, in just a moment. But if you're crazy, why would you have the wherewithal, the knowledge, the cunning to lie immediately?

But wait, let's get the facts. First of all, listen to this. Catherine Volantis is just 15 when she welcomes a baby with high school sweetheart Charles Griffith. The couple ties the knot, but stay close to home in Shawnee, Oklahoma, while Catherine earns a degree. Both parents work to support the young family. Catherine has an online teacher for extra time with son Christopher. Seven years later, the couple welcomes a second child, and to keep the tradition of CG initials, they named the little boy Colin. She gives up everything in order to raise her children, even working online.

This is the mom that was stabbed in the neck. This is the mom who covered for her son when he killed his father, telling authorities, oh, it was self-defense. Let him out because society couldn't believe a son would kill his dad. So they thought, hey, he must be mentally ill. But the way he came out of that house, Susan Hendricks, tells me an altogether different story. Joining me, journalist, investigative reporter, author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan Hendricks is joining us. Susan, tell me what happened when this young man comes out of the house and says,

my mom's in there. She's bleeding from the neck. Just as calm and cool. Chilling. Not only what he said, what he didn't say. It's my mom. Come help immediately. No, I know my rights.

I want an attorney. He knew exactly what he was doing. I feel like he's manipulated the system for years. Wait a minute. I knew he came out cool as a cucumber. I did not know. You just told me something new. He came out and said, I know my rights.

I want a lawyer. Did you just say that? Is that correct? That's exactly what he said. Covered in rights. I want a lawyer. Did you just say that? Is that correct? That's exactly what he said. Covered in blood. Okay, hold on. Hold on. Peter Odom, the guy that you say is crazy, comes out and looks the cops right in the face and goes, I know my rights.

I want a lawyer. Nancy. Really? Crazy is your word. The law really doesn't use that word. He is mentally ill. And there really doesn't use that word. He is mentally ill. And there's really no question about that. He has been twice hospitalized.

That means that he had to be proven by a preponderance of the evidence to be mentally ill enough that he was a danger to himself or others. So there's really no question that this teenager. When was he bakered? Let's find out. When was he baker acted, Susan? When did he get bakered? There are two dates that stand out to me. One was in September 2023. I know that he was held for 72 hours. He made threats inside of that hole. During that hole, they kept him for an additional five days, eight days total. He said exactly what he was going to do. The prosecutor in Oklahoma

was asked, do you regret not charging him for the murder of his father? He said, no, it's impossible to predict someone's future behaviors. No, it's not. Not when they tell you and everyone around them what they're going to do. Didn't his Baker Act coincide with him stabbing his father? It did, but it seemed like he slipped through the cracks. Yeah. And then the second Baker Act, wasn't it, when he attacked his mother in November? He killed his father Feb 14, Valentine's Day, 2023. He's Bakered.

In other words, you're put in a mental facility and you're analyzed. They decide, hey, he's bakered. In other words, you're put in a, you're put in a mental facility and you're analyzed. They decide, Hey, he's fine. We can let him go. He was put there because the system didn't know what else to do with him. Why else would he shoot his dad if he wasn't mentally ill? So they go test him. He's released. Then November, 2023, he assaults his mother. He attacks her. Then he's bakered again because people think, well, why would you attack your mom? You must be mentally ill. Does that coincide with his baker acts, Susan? Well, I think there's a lot of facets here. So he was held an additional time at the 72 hour hold, but it's not a long-term facility. So they were only able to keep him for a certain amount of times. He made threats there as well. He said, I did it

before. I'll do it again. I'll throw her out of a car. I'll shoot her. I'll stab her. He said exactly what he was going to do. Sheriff Judd of Florida seems to be the only one that said, look, I held up a picture of him and say, you see a kid, I see a psychopath. This could have been prevented because of how many threats were made. Susan Hendricks, a teen boy that has killed not only his father, but his mother too. This, after she defends him and the death of the father, gets him out of jail. He hates her. He goes back to live with her and she ends up dead. Can you tell me about the new car, Susan Henry? $26,000. He graduated from high school. To me, never, ever, ever do I blame the mother. It was her unconditional love though. And the forgiveness and I think coddling, maybe she felt guilt about the divorce. I don't know.

$26,000 car. They also went to Australia together. Nothing was enough. And according to Sheriff Judd of Florida, he said every time that he got, I don't know, his phone taken away, something he didn't like, he'd kill the person. I don't even think I'm buying what he said. In fact, I'm not buying what he said about his father, that it was self-defense. And the sheriff said, look, I'm sure that he would have killed the grandmother if he was living with her long term. He was dangerous and he was telling everyone around him what he planned on doing.

Joining us, behavioral expert, former FBI special agent, author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's manual for behavior prediction. Straight out to Robin Dreek. Robin Dreek, you're the behavioral expert. Help me out here. You hear Peter Odom, a veteran defense attorney who was once a homicide prosecutor, insisting, oh, it's just another sad story of mental illness. I don't think this guy is mentally ill. I think he keeps getting Baker acted as it's called in Florida. Baker versus the state is a case when someone is forced to go for a mental evaluation. And when a son kills a father or a son kills a mother, a child kills a parent, society thinks, oh gosh, they must be mentally ill. Society doesn't want to think,

well, they're an evil demon straight from hell. I want you to assess this, Drake. Yeah, evil demon straight from hell describes psychopathy, which is exactly what it looks like this kid is. And I do agree that he's got a life pattern, a life arc of trauma, of bad experiences. But that doesn't take away from his choice to kill people and kill his parents. Interesting with the mother, you know, and you said she covered for him. You always then ask, so what inspired her to cover for him? And since some claims that the Daily Mail put out about the father being abusive to her for their 20-year marriage, I really wonder if she was trauma bonded to him as well, which allowed her and inspired her to cover for this abhorrent behavior that he had. And to have him actually state he's going to do this act and everyone looked the other way probably because she said it was okay

crime stories with nancy grace now he's killed two people and killed his mother and father. And I can assure you, beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt, based upon his conduct, had he gone to live with his grandmother at the end of this and she crossed him, she would be next. He's violent. He's dangerous. He showed zero remorse. Zero remorse. Can we talk about the injuries to his mother? And by the way, that self-defense ruling at the time he shot his father a year before he stabbed his mother dead,

stabbing her multiple times in the neck, then lying about it, that she fell on the knife. That case where the father was killed is now being reopened. Why anyone took his word for it, that it was self-defense is a failure in investigation. It may turn out to be self-defense, but still that must be investigated before a case is just chalked off as self-defense. Long story short, I want to go out to Dr. Priya Banerjee and determine what, if anything, I can conclude from the stab wounds to mom's neck. Dr. Priya Banerjee, board certified forensic pathologist and anatomic pathologist at Anchor Forensic Pathology. Dr. Priya Banerjee, thank you for being with us. I mean, if you want somebody dead in a hurry, you can stab them in the heart or the neck.

Explain why. Yeah, you have vital structures in your neck, right? We all take our pulse here. What does that mean? There's big blood vessels that go structures in your neck, right? We all take our pulse here. What does that mean? There's big blood vessels that go up through your neck to your brain and other parts of the body. So that's a very easy access point, not much to go through, and you can stab or cut through the vessels very quickly, especially with a kitchen knife. You know, I'm thinking about the, oh, okay, there you have a 12-inch knife, a fixed blade knife that was used. Very similar to the murder weapon in the Brian Koberger quadruple murder investigation. The difference in a fixed blade and, for instance, let's just say a folding knife, a pen knife, a scout knife, a Swiss army knife, they bend. A fixed blade does not. And very often you will see the stabber, the perpetrator

stab and their hand will go down the blade. Peter Odom, in all your years of prosecuting and now defending homicides, have you ever seen that happen? Oh, absolutely. It happens frequently. It does happen frequently. I'm wondering if that was the case here. But that said, I want to go now to Dr. Jory Croson, psychologist, faculty at St. Leo University and consultant with the Blue Wall Institute. Jumping off, Dr. Jory, what Dr. Priya just said, I've always contended and I've never really gotten a good answer from a shrink.

Well, I've gotten answers, but not an answer that satisfied me. I still say that there is a completely different psychopathy, a different mindset to someone that stabs their victim, as opposed to, for instance, a sniper that shoots at a distance. You remember the DC sniper? Let's see, Malvo and I'll think of it in a moment. The duo that was terrorizing the DC area. You shoot at a distance. It's like the people aren't even real. It's like an ant far, far away. Or suffocating someone with a pillow.

You don't see their face. You just put the pillow over their head. They struggle. You hold them down. And it's all over. There's something about stabbing someone. Like Jodi Arias, for Pete's sake. What was that? 20 plus stabs,

and then she shot him in the head to cap it off. There's a different mindset. What about it, Dr. Jory? Yeah, all the forms of attack take a different behavior pattern. And with that, you can look at the cognitive process and make assumptions from that. When you're dealing with extreme violence like with this, we have a thing called operational code analysis. It's outside of the typical diagnostic criteria. What it does is there's a code that they operate by. It's a methodology. It's the modus operandi. And this individual, when you look at his operational code, look at the duplication of the immediate exertion of rights. He did that with his father, he did that with his mother.

And just like Sheriff Grady Judd said, had grandmother been the third victim, he would have followed that same operational code. Within that, you can see a lot of repeated behavior patterns. And from that, you can make assumptions psychologically as to, you know, his cognitive process. Now, I'm also looking for clues, clues as to what really happened. I am not prepared to agree that this teen son was mentally unstable, by far not insane. Insane under our jurisprudence means you don't know right from wrong at the time of the incident. The fact that he lied indicates to me he did know what he did was wrong. But I want to talk for just one moment about the mom's frame of mind, the mom's frame of mind. know that witnesses see him drag his mom out of the house by her hair at 4.30 p.m. The Sunday she was killed later that evening.

Why people didn't call 911 then, I'm not sure. But there was tension going back to what the sheriff said, going back to what Dr. Jory said, Robin Drake, Robin Drake, if you notice when he is disciplined and I'm wondering if this is going to make Peter Odom squirm in his seat, whenever he gets disciplined, there's a violent reaction. Susan Hendricks, listen, because I want you to confirm or correct whatever I'm saying. I've got some of her last texts revealed. It says, if Colin texts you again, please tell him he needs to come home. He's violating probation. He's supposed to be off October 6th, but now he will never be. Hello. There you go. Susan Hendricks. She is threatening to tell his probation officer he's violating the terms of probation. Now she's dead. And I think that was

at really her wits end, meaning I read some posts before that, and she spoke about leaving his father and saying after 20 plus years, I should have done it earlier. And as your guest mentioned earlier, as the doctor mentioned, there could have been that trauma bond because in November of 2023, her son was arrested for domestic violence against the mother. Was it now the son that she had to deal with? And it seemed like in that text that you read, she had had enough. But this went on over and over again. The threats kept continuing. He said he was going to do it over and over. And I feel like that mother was hoping that it wouldn't come true, that he would change, of course, trying to make it better. And looking

at those pictures right now on the screen of mother and son, you would never know. You would never know the smiles. You can see a mother. You would never know. Showing looks, Susan, can be deceiving. Robin Dreek, what the sheriff was pointing out earlier, the Polk County sheriff, that every time he's disciplined, he has a violent reaction. Here, mom is saying he's violating his probation and I'm going to report him this time. This is not going to continue happening. Now she's dead, Robin Drake. Yeah, he's fitting the behavior pattern

that he's laid out for himself. And what a dichotomy she must have lived within trying to be a mother and a disciplinarian to raise him at the same time. She's completely desensitized to the violence in her life and not willing to take an action against it, both from her husband at first and then from him. And that's why she was covering for him and not believing in having that hope, which got

her eventually killed because he made a choice. Like you said, he is doing the greatest evils on earth and he's making a choice. Whether he's got mental trauma or not, he's still making the choice and very cognizant of that choice. Whether he's got mental trauma or not, he's still making the choice and very cognizant of that choice. That photo in the flower dress and him in the yellow shirt, I believe that's the one that she shared online just before she was murdered. I mean, Peter Odom, every time he's going to have his phone taken away or he's going to get in trouble or he's going to get reported for not following the rules. He has a violent outburst. Did you see the photos? This could be me and John David for Pete's sake. There they are. Look, they were at Air and Space

Museum. There's graduation. She's taking him to D.C. They're having all these fantastic trips and good times. What? Why? Why? You know, Nancy, on the subject of of mental illness, you mentioned that that insanity means not knowing right from wrong, but it can also mean something else that's very important in this case, the inability to control one's behavior due to mental illness. This represents a massive failure by the state to keep this kid in a hospital. I mean, let's face it, there were red flags flapping all over the place, and everybody ignored them. This teenager did exactly what he said he was going to do. He said he was going to kill his mother.

And they released him, and they put him back with his mother. I just don't understand how the government could have done that. They, they, they. You're using all 10 of your fingers to point at everybody else. The system did it. They did it. It's always they. He is the one. And what you just said, that doesn't make me feel any more warm and fuzzy toward this guy.

He was on the red radar screen. He said, I'm going to kill my mom. Yeah, okay, he said it. That means planning and intent to me. He said it to authorities. They knew that he was going to, and he had killed his father under suspicious circumstances, and they ignored it. And they put him back out into society. That should not have happened.

This was preventable. Now, mom is dead. Joining me, a dear friend of mom, Catherine Griffith, Eric Reyes, is joining us. Mr. Reyes, thank you for being with us. It's good to be here, Nancy. Mr. Reyes, when did you learn that Catherine had been killed? I learned the day after it occurred that she was killed. And unfortunately, it was not a big surprise. It's just hard for me to take in this mom, did everything she could to help her

son, got him out of trouble, I believe, covered for him when he shot his dad a year before, gave him a brand new car, got him through school, was at his beck and call. Yet he turned on her. Tell me your understanding of their relationship. You say you're not surprised. No, I am not. She did do everything for him. They went on cruises. In fact, they just got back from a cruise like only two or three days after, I mean, before she was killed. And she would help him with school because she was a school teacher. She provided a car. He had a job. He was getting counseling. So she did everything she could as a loving mother to help him. And she did everything she possibly

could. Unfortunately, of course, it wasn't enough. Eric, what would she tell you about her son? She did say that he had threatened to kill her. She told that, I mean, he told that to law enforcement. He told that to everybody. I tried to convince her and said, hey, you can't live together. Try to help him. It's not safe. And my concern, I got involved because she was a victim of a battery last year, and he battered her when he was a juvenile. I said, you can't live together. But she wanted everything to help.

It was like an undying mother's love, and unfortunately it cost her her life. But she wouldn't listen to me. She wouldn't listen to law enforcement because she was trying to help him. And of course, she loved Colin very much. Why did he hate his mother so much? I don't know for sure. I believe he was abused by the father years ago in Oklahoma. She was out of the picture at that time. I think she was abused as

well. So she sort of, for self-preservation, wasn't in Oklahoma. So I'm speculating, but perhaps he somehow blamed her because she didn't intervene or try to stop the father from abusing him. That's my best guess here. Did she ever reveal she thought he hated her? No. She did say that he threatened to kill her, and he did, of course, batter her, but she never said that she thought Colin hated her. I mean, they were having fun on their cruises. I saw some of the videos on social media. They seemed like they were enjoying themselves. He was smiling. She was laughing. So as far as that goes, no, I don't think anybody knew he hated her at all.

Eric Reyes, did you say that she was murdered just three days after they come home from her taking him on a cruise? Yeah, she was celebrating her birthday on the cruises around Labor Day and only a couple of days after that when he killed her. And it's like it's horrible. So he was perfectly fine on the cruise. Mom's taking videos of her son having a great time on port adventures, on the ship, laughing, no problem. But then as soon as she tries to discipline him, when they get back home, he kills her. I don't understand how that can be mentally ill when you're perfectly fine, as long as everything is going your way. And then when it doesn't go your way, you become violent. Exactly. And again, he had threatened to kill her before he wasn't doing his chores.

So I think she tried to discipline him by taking his phone away or his ability to play video games. And that's, I guess that's when he snapped, unfortunately. Guys, you are hearing Eric Reyes joining us, a dear friend of now deceased Catherine Griffith. Tell me about Catherine. I read all about her. I interview witnesses, but no one can give me a picture of who Catherine was. Well, she was a loving mother and she was a great teacher. She was a teacher here in Charlotte County, Florida. She loved her students. I think the students really liked her and she enjoyed teaching. And she was a friend to a lot of her students. And of course, she was a mother to Colin. She seemed very happy. She was smiling. I first got involved, represented her in the

Juvenile Delinquency case, but then we became friends and we would talk on the phone a lot. And she was just a loving, giving person. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, you are hearing Eric Reyes joining us, a dear friend of now deceased Catherine Griffith. Tell me about Catherine. I read all about her. I interview witnesses, but no one can give me a picture of who Catherine was. Well, she was a loving mother, and she was a great teacher. She was a teacher here in Charlotte County, Florida.

She loved her students. I think the students really liked her, and she enjoyed teaching. And she was a friend to a lot of her students, and, of course, she was a mother to Colin. She seemed very happy. She was smiling. I first got involved, represented her in the, you know, the juvenile delinquency case, but then we became friends and we would talk, you know, on the phone a lot. And she was just a loving, giving person. A heated argument unfolds outside the Griffiths' home, where witnesses say they saw 17-year-old Griffith drag his mother by her hair into the home.

A short time later, a 911 call is placed. Griffiths' mother is dead. And that's him, the son, calling Griffith, calling 911 completely calm. Comes out of the house when police arrive and says she fell on the knife. The phenomena of children killing their parents. We all remember a 13-year-old little boy actually described as timid and honor student. Seemingly angry, his mom had another child, a baby girl. Listen. Where else did you stop her other than cutting her neck?

Where is your sister? She's in her crib sleeping. How old is your sister? She's only like a week old. Okay, and you did not touch her, correct? No, I did not touch her. I didn't want to touch my sister. I need to know if your mom is breathing. She said, miss, I have the gun with me.

I was going to shoot myself, but I didn't want to. I didn't want to. I pulled back the slide, but I did not shoot. Perfectly coherent, perfectly sane, angry, we believe, or frustrated because his mom has a baby girl with the stepdad. Straight back out to veteran trial lawyer, now defense attorney with a high-profile defense team at Price Benowitz in D.C., Peter Odom, former homicide prosecutor. Did you hear that teen boy, just 13, calm, coherent, describing stabbing his mother in the neck, just like Colin Griffith? Nancy, one thing we have to remember about children, particularly teenagers, is that they have zero impulse control. You know, at 17 years old, at 13 years old, one's brain isn't really even fully formed. I'm sure any of the psychologists

that are on your show would agree with that. There are two things that the criminal justice system doesn't do well. We just haven't gotten correct yet. One of them is juveniles. We don't know how to deal with juveniles in the criminal justice system and also the mentally ill. We don't know exactly how to deal with them. In this case, in the Colin Griffith case, we have both those failures brought into sharp relief. This was a teenager, a juvenile in the eyes of the law, though he's being treated as an adult, and a person that has twice been hospitalized for significant mental health problems. It's really no wonder that this happened. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. Peter, you keep saying he was hospitalized because of mental health problems.

He was Baker-acted because of violence at home. One of those being shooting his dad. So our system, you're right, doesn't know exactly what to do because it automatically assumes, wow, that kid must be crazy, must be insane. Who would hurt their parent? But as you heard, Derek Rosa, who was speaking calmly and was simply frustrated, his mom was sleeping with stepdad and had a baby. He had been the only child for so long. You, Peter Odom, left with no alternative. You first claim mental instability, then the system can't deal with it. Then you say, and the system can't deal with juveniles that kill. All right. Now, in desperation,

you merge the two and you're throwing me a hybrid defense of the system can't handle a juvenile that kills and the system doesn't know how to handle mentally ill. Correction. The system has been dealing with the mentally ill for decades. That's why Andrea Gates is still behind bars for killing all of her children because she's mentally ill, according to some experts. This young man responded with violence every time he was disciplined. Peter, do you not see the difference in this? All the criminal justice system can do, Nancy, is to punish and incarcerate. And when we're dealing with true mental illness, that's not what's required. Treatment, hospitalization, medication, etc. So I guess you and I can just

disagree on whether our criminal justice system deals well or appropriately with the mentally ill. I deal with mentally ill clients all the time, and our system simply can't appropriately deal with them because punishment and incarceration are not getting at the root of the problem. Well, you may be right. I don't disagree that our system is hamstrung. They're snake bit because a lot of people such as drug and alcohol addicts, they need help, not just jail. I think they should have jail and help. So I agree with you to an extent, but the crux of what I'm arguing is I'm not convinced Colin Griffith was mentally insane or delusional. He seemed to know exactly what he was doing.

Here's another example. Tyler Hadley, who killed his parents because they were trying to get him in, rehabbed. Listen. and someone reported that this kid had killed their parents. He told me that the kid had f***ed up. And he was like, he told me, like, he told me that, like, the gist of it, that he did something to his parents. And I was like, bro, I don't want to know any details. He said he already called and reported everything to Crime Stoppers. I was just calling because I felt like I needed to.

In the case of Tyler Hadley, he was angry because his parents wanted him to get help with addiction and he didn't want to. He wanted to have a big party at the house where there were, there was booze and drugs. They didn't want him to have the party. So he killed them. I'm seeing Dr. Jory Croson, a psychologist, a lot of responses, inappropriate and uncontrolled responses to stimuli, such as mom having a baby with stepdad or mom saying you can't have a party or some other reason, some other discipline, such as in the current case where mom took away video games or mom threatened to call probation. And that uncontrolled response is violence, is murder. That does not equal mental disturbance or insanity. Dr. Jory.

When you're dealing with a violent person, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are, you know, have a mental illness. We could fit them into a diagnosis, but an aggressive, violent personality and they respond inappropriate like this young man did. It's outside the realm of treatment. You have to then here in Florida with the Baker Act, we kind of then move it into the criminal justice system. Just like he was on probation, he violated that probation, then they would come and lock him up to protect his mother. The mother, you know, God love her. She really demonstrated motherly love, but she really wasn't a neutral person to protect herself from him. 12th of February in 2024, he has an argument with his mother,

and he runs away from Charlotte County and comes back to Auburndale, to his grandmother's house. Now, his grandmother's not there. The grandmother said, hey, we don't feel safe with him around. So our deputies who found him up here as a missing person reported in Charlotte County turned him over to DCF. You are hearing Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd and more. Two days later, on the 14th of February, the anniversary of him killing his dad a year ago, he's reunited with his mother by DCF. Colin made the statement that I don't want to go

home. I'll use any force necessary to avoid it to include killing my mother. So that's the second time he threatened to kill his mother. So they didn't make him go home on the 14th. But about two weeks later, in March 2024, they reunite Colin with his mother again. Everybody's calmed down. Peter Odom is correct. He warned everyone he was going to kill his mother very calmly and very coherently, which in my mind rules out a mental illness. And then, listen.

September the 6th. Colin has an argument about home chores, and he flees from his mother's house again and comes up to his grandmother's house. Grandmother's not there. Mom lets the event calm down and she tells her son, hey, you need to come home. And she asked him to come home and face his responsibility. Colin says, I'm not coming back home. That was September the 7th. Robin Drieg, behavior analyst, formerly with the FBI, weigh in. Yeah, what we see here is so predominantly just not with his case, but all the other cases you mentioned, it's a lack of control. Every time he has a lack of control in his life, he's going

from zero to murder. And it's like he said, and everyone else has been saying, it's so predictable. And it's this lack of ability to solve problems in a healthy way, which has also been mentioned. It's exactly what happened here. Zero to 100 when he loses control and murder is his escape route. Dr. Priya Banerjee joining us, board certified pathologist. Dr. Priya, how long would mom have lain in the floor bleeding out with her son towering over her before she died? Very quickly. So I just want to say two wounds, you don't fall on a knife and create two wounds. And you're going to injure, again, major blood vessels. So I would say within seconds to a minute

or two, it's very short. Susan Hendricks, what's next? You know, it's just horrific. The system failed the mother and her last post is eerie. It's lyrics from Taylor Swift saying sometimes giving up is the strong thing. No one was there to help her. Of course, he isn't getting out now, but it's too late for the mom. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.