Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Teen Son’s Sick Obsession w/ Mom: Who Murdered Mom Jessica & Eli, 8?

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

In Saratoga Springs, Utah, a 17-year-old girl returns home to find her mother, Jessica Lyman, and her 8-year-old brother, Eli Painter, shot in the head. While young Eli is pronounced dead at the scene, Jessica succumbs to her injuries three days later. A lengthy investigation leads to the arrest of Jessica's 16-year-old son, who currently faces murder charges in juvenile court in connection with the double shooting. Although the teen boy claimed he slept through the attack and subsequent emergency response, authorities uncovered a trail of disturbing evidence. Nancy Grace and her panel of experts break down what investigators found: hostile texts from the teen to his mother, gunshot residue on the clothes he wore that morning, and indoor home surveillance audio capturing three gunshots just minutes after a fierce argument between the mother and son. Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Skye Lazaro - (Salt Lake City, UT) Criminal defense attorney at Ray, Quinney & Nebeker, Facebook: SkyeBeth, Instagram: SkyeBeth1 Dr. Bethany Marshall - (Beverly Hills, CA) Psychoanalyst. See her in hit shows "Paris in Love" on Peacock and "The Valley, Persian Style" on Bravo.  You can also catch her on Netflix and Hulu as well. Host of new podcast, "On The Couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall," Instagram, Facebook, & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter:@DrBethanyLive David Sarni - (Brooklyn, NY) Former NYPD Detective, 27 years at NYPD, Adjunct Professor John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Instagram: dsonthemedia, TikTok: DS08296, Facebook: David Sarni Jeff Gentry - (Fresno, CA) Forensics-Certified Bloodstain Pattern Analyst, Senior Crime Scene Analyst and Death investigator, Former Toxicology Lab Analyst, Author: "Forensic Science: Applications to Death and Crime Scene Investigations" ; TikTok: @jeffreygentryBPA, FB: Jeff Gentry Bloodstain Pattern Analyst Vanessa Walsh - (Denver, CO) Host of the podcast, Unmasked True Crime. Facebook and YouTube: UnmaskedTrueCrime, X: CrimeUnmasked Dave Mack (AL) - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches, there's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pastos survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?

And will you finish episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Craved Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto-pay. credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell. Connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Tonight, a teen son's sick obsession with his own mother who murdered mom, Jessica, and her little boy, Eli, just eight years old. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Jessica Lyman and her eight-year-old.

son Eli are found dead from gunshot wounds inside their Utah home. Now the investigation takes a shocking turn as Jessica's 16-year-old son is arrested in connection with the murders. Saratoga Springs Police officers responded to a medical assist call at 1244 Willowbrook Lane. Upon arrival officers located 43-year-old Jessica Lyman and 8-year-old Eli Painter, both suffering from gunshot wounds. Despite efforts to save them, both victims succumb to their injuries. A mother and her eight-year-old little boy, Eli, found dead from multiple gunshot wounds in their own home. That's from our friends at KUTV.

That was Chief Andrew Burton at Saratoga Springs PD in Utah. A mother and a little boy dead in their own home, while the teen son Noah says he slept through the entire thing. thing, at least three gunshot wounds. Before I get to the location of the body and the fact surrounding the deaths of a mother and son, straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst. You can see her on Peacott. You can see her on Hulu. You can see her on Bravo.

And she's the star of a brand new podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany. You can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Dr. Bethany, thank you for being with us tonight. First, before I can even get to the murders, there was a very bizarre dynamic going on in the home. At the scene of the crime, hold. Isn't it true, Vanessa Waltz joining us? She's a star of unmasked true crime.

Isn't it true in the home near mom's body? First of all, her underwear and her shirt. shorts were pulled down around her knees. But on the bed, on her bed, isn't it true, there was seminal fluid? Yes, Nancy, that's correct. CSI did find dried seminal fluid on the sheets next to Jessica's body. And the question, is it also true, Vanessa, that in mom's room there was one fishnet stocking and the other matching fishnet stocking was in her son's room. Yes, these details are very

disturbing. They found multiple sex toys and lubricant, both in Jessica's room and her 15-year-old son's room. And then as you mentioned, they found black fish net stockings. One of them was in Jessica's room. The other one was in her son's room. They also found some women's underwear in his room and some very bizarre handwritten notes. Bizarre handwritten notes, yes. You know what, Vanessa, you're right. And there's so much evidence to go through. And let me tell you, Vanessa, I've worked many, many homicide scenes.

Everything you find has got to be documented very carefully and put into evidence. I hope nothing was left behind. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, before I get into the fishnet hose and all of that, I want to talk to you about some texts that we have uncovered text from the son to the mother. I mean, Dr. Bethany, if one of my twins sent me this, I would just go lay on the railroad tracks. I don't like you. Go away. Leave me the fucking alone.

Shut the fuck up. Please. Do you need to learn how to shut your mouth? I'm more happy when I'm not around you. Shut up, witch. Shut the fuck up. Can't hear you. Won't want.

You're so effing mentally ill. Do you know how insignificant you are in my life? Very insignificant. I wish I died in your stomach wouldn't have to put up with you. That pains me to even read it. Bethany, hold one more moment. Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter. Dave, I just want to clarify something.

Where on her body was Mom Jessica shot? In the head, Nancy. Okay, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us. Sorry, Dr. Bethany. I went to you earlier, but I wanted to give you the lead-up with those texts and where the mom was shot. because you and I have both investigated cases where the shooter, no one has been convicted in this crime as of tonight.

The shooter, in many cases, wants the victim to, quote, shut their mouth and they shoot them in the mouth or in the face. They also want to render them unconscious, unable to think about what's going on in the situation. You know, Nancy, the gunshot to the head as well as the semen beside the mother's body tells a story because whenever there's semen by the body rather than in the body, one of the things we consider is a rage killing, that the killer was in such a frenzy, masturbating, trying to dominate the mother, that he couldn't even perform.

properly in terms of what he set out to do. So sometimes in these kinds of crime scenes, we find semen in the corner of the room on the stairs. So that's one point. The second is this son had such a hateful preoccupation with his mother. And what I think is underneath it is this simmering resentment, the sense that you've let me down, you haven't given me everything I wanted, I wanted more, you didn't do it for me. And it would be interesting to look at other texts and see what kinds of demands he's made of his mother, right? And if he is any way implicated in this, why would he also target his little brother who's only eight years old?

Was he preoccupied that the mother had more affection towards the little boy than towards him? And then finally, I would want to know in terms of the first responders on the scene, or whoever interviewed, did he seem to have empathy towards his mother and towards his little brother? or did he start from the get-go like male abusers oftenly do deprecating his mother, putting her down, saying that she had it coming to her? Or also did he construct some elaborate story? You know, I'm sleeping. You know, she had a boyfriend, but the boyfriend was stalking her.

I imagine we're going to have an absence of such stories. And what we're going to find instead is a continuation of those hateful texts, but now he gets to tell the entire world instead of just sending it to his mother. And of course, Sky Lazzaro joining us, she's a veteran criminal defense attorney, joining us out of this jurisdiction, Utah. She has tons of experience in both state and federal cases. Sky, thank you for being with us tonight. Of course, you can't put a son behind bars because of hateful texts.

Now, these texts are beyond any texts I've ever gotten from my children. And, you know, they've been angry, they've been upset. But nothing like that. Those texts do not a murder motive make, Sky. They do not make a motive for murder. They certainly are not helpful. And it might show the underlying problems and the relationship. But those texts alone don't necessarily.

really helped the state that much when it comes to murder other than to show, look, these two didn't get along. Well, I don't know about that, too. David Sarny joining us, guys, David Sarny, 27 years NYPD, now Professor John Jay College of Criminal Justice. David, thank you for being with us. I hear what Sky Lazaro was saying, and she's right, those texts do not prove murder. However, they could go toward course of conduct, frame of mind, intent, motive. It doesn't have to be a text like, Mom, I'm going to shoot you tonight at midnight, get ready.

Those could go to frame of mind, but I've never seen in all the years I've investigated and prosecuted a case that involved a seeming sex obsession. on the part of the son toward the mother. Now, this is all circumstantial evidence. Of course, David Sarny, I know that's the first thing you're going to tell me. But I find that very, very bizarre. There are things that are interesting about this case.

And I always say, you know, the responding officers are initially the ones who will see what happened at that scene, and they're the ones who get a good feel of what happened. And when they get to the scene, you have the 911 caller there and the son, who they asked, because they know, it's exigent circumstance.

We don't know. There's two bodies. Could there be more? Could he have been injured? They go around, they find, when they speak to the son, and he goes, I was sleeping during this whole thing. And that's already, that starts putting out those little signals in your head. There's more to this than what he's saying at that moment.

That's never enough. I have seen cases where DNA is not enough. I've seen cases where statements or confessions are not enough. So this is the, you know, when we look for people, of interest or suspects he becomes suspect crime at that moment but it doesn't matter we have to develop the evidence that's why that crime scene that a that crime scene has to be frozen at the time the police get there so when we can actually start recovering forensic evidence uh anything along the lines of anything on the person anything that could find out who was responsible for that

it takes time and that's the one thing about this case a crime scene the good thing about this crime There's nothing really good about any crime scene, but it was central. It was in the house. And then what you do is when you have that part of the scene, you do what's called extended video canvas or extended canvas because you have apparently showcasing at the scene. You have a possible witness who said they were sleeping, but that doesn't make any sense. And that's the thing. You know, we talk about these cases all the time about murder investigations, about any type of case.

People can plan it. They don't really plan the aftermath, the aftermath. aftermath. And that's what we've seen with the evidence that's been recovered. He was trying, or at least notes were trying to say there was a plan to hide evidence. But as we all know, as investigators, there's always something people leave behind. There's always an opportunity and the mistakes that are made. And that's why you have what you have in an arrest in this case. Well, David Surney, NYPD and John Jay College Criminal Justice, you're absolutely correct. No murder weapon was ever found. There were just a bunch of ambulances pulled up.

for a couple of people outside seemed pretty distressed. She had just seen two individuals who were unresponsive and covered with blood. I've been having some nightmares. I've been having a hard time sleeping. I've taken some extra precautions to make sure, you know, my family is safe. From our friends at KUTV, back to Vanessa Walsh, joining a star of unmasked true crime. Vanessa, who discovered the mom and the little boy, Eli, age age eight. bodies. So Jessica and Eli were discovered the next morning by Jessica's 17-year-old daughter, and she found them both lying in Jessica's bed. Their faces were covered in blood. There was blood

pulling behind their head, and she immediately called 911. Eli had been shot twice in the head and was pronounced dead at the scene, and Jessica was shot once in the head. Amazingly, she was still alive, but she did pass away three days later. stated that the mom's daughter found her. Where was the daughter at the time of the murders? All we know is that she wasn't at home at the time, but when she did get home around 10 a.m., she walked into the completely horrifying scene of her mother and her little brother lying in Jessica's bed, covered in blood and unresponsive. To Dave Mack, joining us from crime stories, I thought the daughter was staying at her dad's home.

Nancy, that has been put out there in the media that she was at her father's house, but that hasn't been confirmed by any stretch. It's just that she got home at 1015, found her mom and 8-year-old little brother, and immediately called police. And they referred to the call as loud and frantic. And that call was made right outside her brother's bedroom door, which he claims he slept through. I want to talk about how the scene was processed to Jeff Gentry joining us, forensic certified bloodstain pattern analyst, senior crime scene analyst and death investigator,

former toxicology, author of Forensic Science Applications to Death and Crime Scene Investigations. You can find him at evidence over assumption.com. Jeff, if you had gone into this scene, what would you have looked for first? Well, first I'd exercise all caution. Until you know your suspect, you're going to exercise extreme caution in this kind of case where you have a seemingly random murder with two people deceased. It's not until you start taking a deeper look into that. And right away, those text messages that you showed should be a big red flag very concerning. That's going to put you on the right path, trying to narrow down a suspect in a case where two people are apparently randomly murdered.

That's how you start narrowing down that suspect list is looking at the obvious. And this text message should be very concerning. But first thing you're going to be concerned with in any murder investigation is processing of evidence. What is your most fragile evidence? There's going to be fibers, transfer items that are transferred from one location to another, any cartridge casings, any sources of DNA, any sources of fingerprints. Those are going to be things that are going to be forensic links to your suspect. And so you have to exercise extreme caution when you're not only going in there to secure the scene, but when you're rendering aid, and then eventually when you're going to be processing that scene,

you just have to be very cautious and you have to be well-educated and well-experienced and looking for these things because you don't want to miss a thing in this type of case. Every single little detail, every single little piece of evidence is going to help you to link that suspect frenzically to your crime scene. Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches, There's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pastos survive the first bite?

Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all? And will you finish episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Craved Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.com.com for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. But as a watch, what if anything did the son say when he was questioned by police?

I mean, what was he doing when police arrived? So when investigators started clearing the house, the 15-year-old son kind of wandered out of his bedroom and said that he had been sleeping the entire time. So he claims he slept through the three gunshots the night before that he slept through, as Dave mentioned, the very loud and frantic 911 call that happened right. outside of his bedroom and that he also slept through the EMTs and the officers arriving on the scene. When they questioned him about, they asked him a very specific question about if he was aware of any weapons in the house. The 15-year-old interestingly answered that he was unaware of any guns in the home. And investigators did take note of that because at that time they had not given him any details of the murder, and they had not told him that his mother and his little brother had been

shocked. While many people would poo-poo, the son's claim that he slept through the entire double murder, I've got to point out, the murder of a gorgeous young mom or saw you gale by a handyman. The son was suspected, but the son said he slept through the entire thing. What was so disturbing in that case among many things was the lone male figure walking through the neighborhood in the early morning hours, dragging a rollerboard, leaving a blood trail, the blood of Arsulia Gail. And in that case, the son did sleep through the entire murder of his mother. So it has happened. It has happened before. Dr. Bethany Marshall, in that case, however,

Arsulia, Gail was bludgeoned dead in the basement. In this case, the mom was murdered. Jessica was murdered by gunshot wound. There were three loud gunshots. And if he slept through that, he must have also slept through his sister who comes home from a sleepover at dads and she's right outside his bedroom screaming into the 911 call. He slept through that too.

I just want to hear all your thoughts, Dr. Bethany. Well, the other differences is that you have a disorganized handyman, bludgeoning a woman to death, rolling a suitcase down the street with blood coming out. In this case, you have a very organized. killer or somewhat organized killer who is maybe trying to cover his tracks, maybe saying I was sleeping. If it was a son, we don't know. But I think an important clue to is the son's sexual preoccupation with his mother.

That's a barant. That's a perversion. And that could play a huge role in this crime. And what we see when sons are sexually and angrily and in a hostile way fixated with their mothers is you have a perfect storm of factors. Often you have a mother and a father who separated during an important developmental time of the child. So we don't know how when the father and mother divorced or separated, how old this son who, you know, we want to think about him since he was near the scene of the crime. Often the single parent, opposite sex parent will

turn to that child for gratification, emotional gratification. I'm not trying to blame the mom, but they'll be like pizza nights and let's go out together and the son starts to take on the role of the father who's no longer there. But then when the mother starts to develop her own life, maybe she starts to date or, you know, takes a new job. Then the son gets destabilized, but there would have to be other factors. Rage towards the mother, a feeling of deprivation. Often there can be psychiatric illnesses bipolar or OCD. But then the longing for the mother to pay. penetrate the mother, to have sex with the mother, to dominate her, to punish her, becomes so strong

that he gets almost fused and confused with eroticism and sexuality. You know, love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin. Hate love and sex often go together. And I think if he is the perp, which I have no idea, I haven't examined him, you'd want to know what destabilized him. Was there a sexual preoccupation that started with gratification, then hatred? than the feeling the mother had withdrawn everything she'd done for him before, and now he wants to punish her for it. That's what I would be looking for. It's a tale as old as time and obsession with the mom.

It can happen with either sons or daughters. For instance, here's an incredible example, a disturbing example, of Derek Rosa. Miss, I killed my mom. How did you care your mom? I dropped the knife from the kitchen and when she was sleeping, I stabbed her in the throat and in the back. Okay. Where is the knife right now? I put it. Let me check. Wait. I can't find a knife. I need to know if your mom is breathing.

She's dead, miss. She's dead. Okay. What did you do that? She's blood all over the floor. I need to know. Do you think we can help your mom? Ms. She's dead. I stopped her. You stopped her. I grabbed them more than five times. I took pictures and I told my friends about it. It was that bad.

You told who about it? My friends. Your friends? Do you send pictures to your friends? So what you did? Yeah. What type of knife was it, do you know? It was just a big size kitchen knife.

That big? Yeah. Your mom was sleeping? Yeah, she was sleeping. And then she woke up? Yes. Did you say anything else to her? Did she say anything to you or no?

No, she just screaming. She just screamed. to Dave Mac, the problem was, I don't know if you caught it on the 911 call. He actually sent a photo of himself to his friends from the bloody crime scene, bragging that he had just murdered his mom. He did. Nancy, that, I remember when we covered that case, it was just emotionally devastating when you listen to what that child did or what that boy did.

sending out pictures to friends bragging about what he had done. It's just shocking to the soul that a person could do that to their mother. Another issue, back to what you were saying earlier, Dr. Bethany Marshall, is that Derek Rosa murdered his mother and sleeping beside her in a crib beside the mom's bed was the baby sister, the infant baby sister. The mom had remarried and had just had the baby sister. Here is a shot of the three of them, the mom, the new husband, and the defendant, and she's pregnant. That is Derek Rosa and his mother shortly before he murdered her.

And you were saying earlier, Dr. Bethany, you were pointing out anger over the mom, marrying or the mom getting a new job or the mom having another baby. I found it very significant in the Rosa case that he murdered his mother with the baby daughter right beside her bed. You know, Nancy, and I'm thinking of so many cases you've covered like this where really what led to simmering and smoldering resentment spilling over into actual homicide intent and the final action is that there is the reintroduction of a new baby, a younger sibling, somebody who's getting mother's attention. And if you have a young person like 7, 8, 9, 10 who already wants to jealously possess the mother, okay, wants everything from the mother. The mother's trying to develop

a life. The son or the daughter becomes resentful. Then a new baby comes along and mommy's able to give everything to the new baby that mommy's not giving to the current. eight, nine, or ten-year-old, okay? And so when you think in this current case, his eight-year-old younger sibling was also murdered at the same time, I think that is incredibly important. And what we'd have to look at is if the teen son did it and he was becoming destabilized and hateful towards the mother, did she bond in a stronger way with the eight-year-old because he was simply a healthier child and someone where there was more gratification. We also have to look at psychiatric illness again.

I treated a mother whose 14-year-old daughter was homicidal, and they had very few resources. We talked through how to protect herself at night and barricade the door and all of that. But this was following a separation from her husband where the daughter had bipolar, became destabilized and became preoccupied with possessing her mother. And if she couldn't have everything from her mother, didn't get all of her needs, gratified or met, she just wanted to kill her. So it's jealousy, possession, extracting from the mother, bleeding the mother dry, being parasitic, being like a leech.

All those things come together in kind of an adolescent way. And here is a teen girl seemingly obsessed with her mom. Her name is Sarah Grace Patrick, who actually gave a eulogy for her. her parents and then was charged in their murders. For those of you do not know me, my name is Sarah, and I am Kristen Fox daughter and James Brock's stepdaughter. This isn't easy. I don't know how bad any of you do those all the time, but I'm really happy I get to

stay there with me because I stutter a lot. I just wanted to say goodbye to my mom and James since we never got the chance to. I was so used to you guys, always made huge to plead that I did. everyone's thoughts who imagine y'all not being here. I have a single clue with how much I needed jawed full now. For James, thank you for all the life lessons you taught me and for being the best known as dad ever. Your heart will finally be healed in heaven

and neither of y'all will be in any pain anymore. Although that gives me so much comfort, your fight was not supposed to end there. On the morning of February 20th, 2025, deputies with the Carroll County Sheriff's Office responded to a tragic scene at 1531 Carrollton-Tayas Road. They discovered the bodies of James Brock 45 and Kristen Brock 41, both deceased from apparent gunshot wounds.

From the very moment, the 911 call was received, a relentless investigation began, one that would span months, consumed thousands of man-hours, and require the full weight of the local and federal law enforcement agency partnerships. Today we can confirm that an arrest has been made in the case. Kristen Brock's 17-year-old daughter, Sarah Grace Patrick, has been taken into custody and charged with two counts of murder and two counts of aggravated assault. That eulogy video of Sarah Grace Patrick crying and snodding about the parents that she reportedly kills, she's awaiting trial, is from Kristen Douda.

Then, of course, there is a case, can't forget this one, 14-year-old Carly Gregg also obsessed with her mother. Every night spent making the kids lunches. There's a lot of veggies. Will the pasto survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty? Half full? or come home at all. And will you finish episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Craved Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit.

Visit bell.za for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Veteran defense attorney out of the Utah jurisdiction where this mom, Jessica, is murdered to Sky Lazzaro, defense attorney, it's kind of hard to argue with body cam. You see the stepdad lying on the porch saying she just shot me in the neck. It's hard to defeat evidence like that. And I guarantee you in this case, there's going to be body cam.

In this case where Jessica Lyman's son comes up, oh, hey, why are the police here? You know that's going to be on body cam. Like he didn't hear three gunshots right down the hall and his sister screaming into 911. Good luck with that. Not an easy defense to make, Nancy, for sure. But, you know, this is a 15, 16 year old kid. He could have had earbuds in. 17.

Could have slept through anything. It's hard 17. Either way. There's explanations, I think, for not hearing things. I do think you're right. I think the body cam probably is going to reveal a lot more in this case. But as of right now, you know, he is charged in juvenile court, but most of this evidence surrounding him is really circumstantial.

You know, they're looking at videos, the surveillance videos of outside that show maybe a couple figures. The best they can do is say that the shadowy figure thumb matches. It's a male figure that fits his description. although his face isn't seen at his height and weight wearing clothes similar to him to what he had and wearing a backpack that was found discarded by a river in their neighborhood. I take issue, Nancy, with the surveillance camps like that. Those cameras are not great.

And if you want to say someone fits someone's description, that could be one of many people around the neighborhood. or just individuals in general. Maybe we see something come out of forensics from the backpack that tie it to him more definitively. But those surveillance cameras or videos alone that... Okay, you're right. You're right, Sky Lazzaro.

And it brings to mind that... You remember the teppy killings that you and I discuss? That video from our friends at KUTV, by the way. Remember walking along the back alley, what, three? A.M. A. A.M. A. Guy looks just like Mrs. Tepie's, Manique Tepie's ex-husband, the freaky stalker, medical doctor.

And guess what? It was him. Looks just like him. Bam. But I see what you're saying. Circumstantial evidence is, you have to have it to tie that backpack back to the sun in this case. And speaking of Jeff Gentry, gunshot residue. Gunshot residue.

is as fine as baby powder. That's why you can't let a suspect even go to the bathroom because one wash under the sink, it's gone. You can even do this and get rid of gunshot residue. And isn't it true that gunshot residue upon firing a weapon usually travels about at the most 36 inches? Yeah, gunshot residue is all the little small metal particles and all the products after a firearm is fired.

So it is going to disperse throughout the scene. And obviously the people that are closest to that gunshot or that weapon being fired are going to have gunshot residue deposited on them. And in theory, the shooter should have gunshot residue on their hand, their clothing, on their body in close proximity to that firearm. The victim will likely also have some gunshot residue on them too if they're in close proximity to that firearm. But it's a very good way to narrow down who was the shooter.

who was the victim, who was close by this firearm, and you're very right. It is fragile evidence. So it is something that you would want to secure right away. You want to make sure that the suspects or anybody that's involved in a shooting incident is kept isolated or their clothes are collected right away or their hands are swabbed right away because you don't want to miss that critical evidence. In some cases, you don't have gunshot residue, but when you do have it, it can be very helpful in pinpointing who was the shooter, who was not. joining us former NYPD, now adjunct professor John Jay College of Criminal Justice. David, many, many times investigators are so busy securing the scene that they don't keep an eye

on a potential suspect and they go, hey, can I run into the bathroom? They go, sure, there goes the gunshot residue. It's gone just like that. Yeah, that's why the first officer's on scene do a really good job because they secure the scene they have their body camera video they have him they there are statements made in an accident circumstance and its defense attorneys will do they will they will challenge everything so as an investigator we refuted with evidence and that's why little bits and pieces don't add up until you get to totality circumstances he said he was sleeping at the time there's apparently um DNA residue seminal fluid at the at the residence apparently when they take his they notice he has a scratch on his shoulder.

That's when the investigators go into play. So they take his clothes. They take photos of the injury. They also going to do a full, when they do the DNA search on the bodies, on the victims, in this case, you bag their hands, see if there's any type of any finger, any type of skin cells underneath their fingers. And that scratch, does that match a scratch on the victims at that time? All these things come into play.

You know, you could refute every piece of evidence, but that's why when you talk about crime scenes and talk about the importance of documentation, the importance of securing that evidence, when we ask a question, we have to answer it out, and that's what the forensic evidence does here. Not everything adds up to everything. It's very circumstantial. Video is circumstantial at one point. You could have DNA circumstantial at one point. But as each piece falls into play, that's why it took so long to get this arrest because, you know, they have an arrest. they have the murder almost a year after the fact, but this is why it took so long to get the,

you're talking about the text messages, to get communication from the parents, you know, the father getting involved and the father actually stopping the kid from actually cooperating anymore. You had to get their phones, you had to get surveillance cameras, you get all of that.

And, you know, when you had the initial story done by at the time of the witness, which is the time as a witness, we now have things refute what he said at the time when he said it. And speaking of gunshot residue described so perfectly by David Sarnie and Jeff Gentry, Vanessa Walsh, is it true that there is GSR evidence in this case? Yes, Nancy, that's correct.

Investigators found gunshot residue on multiple items of the 15-year-old's son, including items that he was wearing on the morning when investigators arrived on the scene. Whoa, whoa. Vanessa Walsh, there is gunshot residue on him, the son, on his body, and on the clothes. He was still wearing the same clothes and had not gotten rid of gunshot residue. That's correct. Investigators found that not only was it on his clothes, but it was on the same clothes that he was wearing when they got there. So although there could be potentially other explanations, that one's going to be hard. to explain away. And to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of the LA jurisdiction, I showed you those similar transactions, for instance, of Sarah Grace Patrick and Carly Gregg, in addition to Derek Rosa, because both genders of children can get obsessed with their mothers. Nancy, as you said earlier, it's a story that's as old as time, and I've often had older patients in my practice, 30s, 40s, 50s, who are still preoccupied with their parents.

And you know what's always at the core there somewhere is they think they're going to get something from their parents. Like, I'm going to get an inheritance if they die. My mom promised to buy me a small prop plane, but she's not writing the check. But I know after she goes, I just thought I could write the checks myself and get that plane or if you think of a 10 year old i i wanted a new bike for christmas or i wanted um i wanted to go play with my friends or you think of a teenage girl my parent wouldn't let me hang out with my boyfriend so i'm going to kill them so what is our earliest relationship with our mothers we get things

from them they give us they give birth to us they nurture us they feed us and some people we think of psychopathology are so disturbed that when that that perfect flow is disrupted in any way, they become resentful, angry, and preoccupied with getting what they feel was lost. The investigation goes on, but tonight we are also learning that video surveillance inside the home also reveals audio in the home. Gunshots are heard. Shortly after an intense argument between the mom, Jessica, and the son. About two to three minutes after that argument, three gunshots are heard. If you know or think you know anything regarding this case,

please dial 801-7666503. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I-heart podcast. Guaranteed human.