Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Texas church killer started with torturing animals & Filthy rich investor sued for luring women on Instagram, assaulting in “dungeon”

Episode Date: November 7, 2017

The man who massacred worshipers at a Texas church was arrested for beating his dog, according to a police report shared with Crime Stories by private investigator Bobby Brown. Brown joins Nancy Grace, psychologist Dr. Chloe Carmichael, and reporter Art Harris in a discussion about the latest in the investigation. A New York investment manager is accused in a civil lawsuit of torturing and raping women lured to his dungeon. Nancy looks at the case with forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, psychiatrist Caryn Stark, and co-host Alan Duke. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Sunday service massacre. He was dressed in all black. The suspect crossed the street to the church, exited his vehicle, and began firing at the church. It was rapid fire. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelly opened fire inside Sutherland Springs First Baptist Church. A local resident grabbed his rifle and engaged that suspect. He was killed after fleeing the scene. I never thought it would happen here. I mean, this is something that takes place in a big city. It doesn't make any sense. A devastating blow in this close-knit community reeling from what's being called the country's deadliest shooting inside a house of worship. All of America is praying to God to help the wounded and the families of the victims. We will never, Never leave their side, ever. 26 dead here on American soil and in a house of worship at 11 a.m. on a Sunday morning. It's known around the world that that is when U.S. churches are open for worship

in almost every Christian denomination. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. And now we are learning so much about the shooter. How did children, an eight-month pregnant mom of four, how did they die? Why did this happen? Joining me, investigative reporter Art Harris,

Emmy Award-winning reporter Cheryl McCollum, crime scene expert and director of the Cold Case Institute, Dr. Chloe Carmichael, psychologist out of New York, creator of AnxietyTools.com, and private investigator Bobby Brown, based in the same town where the shooter lived, and he has been digging deep into the shooter's life to find out why and how. First of all, straight to Bobby Brown. Bobby, what have we learned about this shooter that goes into this beautiful little house of worship in a small Texas town, walks toward the altar right down the center aisle, then turns around, faces the congregation, looks them in the faces as he guns them down, women, children, men alike.

Straight out to Bobby Brown, private investigator. Bobby, what have you learned about the shooter's past? For instance, a police report you found? I have the report from an incident that actually occurred on August 13th of 2014. And it was a cruelty to animals complaint. One important thing is that when the police, the fountain police, got to the mobile home, motor home that Patrick Devin, Patrick Kelly, was living in, he refused to come out for almost an hour. And then when he did come out, he was confronted about how he had brutally assaulted his dog, as was witnessed by a number of people. Let me just kind of chase Bobby. What did he do to the dog?

He literally, he was strangling the dog and was on top of the dog and punching him several times in the head. And the dog was whining and was just cowling. And then he drug the dog back to his motor home. When he was confronted by law enforcement, he passed it off by saying that he was teaching the dog not to run away again. Oh, my stars. Okay, wait, wait, wait. Right there with me is private investigator out of Colorado Springs, Bobby Brown.

This is where the shooter lived for some time. Bobby has been digging into the life of Devin Patrick Kelly. Before I go to Cheryl McCollum and Art Harris, Dr. Chloe Carmichael, psychologist out of New York, creator of anxietytools.com. Dr. Chloe, I've studied many, many and prosecuted serial killers and spree killers. And Art, you were with me through many of those investigations covering them. Chloe, when you show rage or violence or just cruelty to animals, I mean, when Bobby Brown said that, it chills down my arms because that is a textbook sign of someone that will erupt into spree

or serial killing in the future. I mean, it's just like a given. That's one of the first things you look for is have they tortured animals? Dr. Chloe? Yes, Nancy, I agree. That's just a heartbreaking story. And what's really awful about it, too, is it doesn't sound as much like he's psychotic. It doesn't sound as if he thought the psychotic. You know, it doesn't sound as if, you know,

he thought the dog was out to get him or something. Even by his own description, he was using a really cruel form of torture in order to control the dog and to try to, you know, dominate the dog, to stop the dog, you know, from just running away, which of course I'm sure the dog would want to run away if this is how he treats it. You know, to Cheryl McCollum, Cold Case Institute director, Cheryl, I mean, this is a classic sign of a serial killer or spray killer. And I'm not just cooking that up in my iron pot on the stove, okay? This is documented over and over and over again, Cheryl. Nancy, it's right up there.

You've got the cruelty to animals. You've got your domestic violence. You've got your soft targets like children. You've got failure in the military. He is right out of the playbook. There's no question about it. But I think one thing that needs to be pointed out here, unlike a lot of potential serial killers that just grab animals from wherever, all of his targets have been selected.

None of them were at random. Every one of them is somebody that he was connected to or an animal he was connected to that we know so far. Explain Cheryl McCollum. It was his dog. It was his child. It was his wife. It was his in-laws church. Anybody that does him wrong that he's connected to, he will seek revenge. Well, Cheryl, I mean, this is just off the top of my head, so there may be more, but animal abuse, I have always known,

is one of the first signs of a serial or spree killer. And for instance, I mean, I'm not even going to have to look these up. You've got David Berkowitz, son of Sam. You've got Carol Cole, who killed almost 30, 35, 40 people. Jeffrey Dahmer had animal cruelty in his background. The Boston Strangler, you know, Albert DeSalvo. But that's my point. I mean, all of them started with cruelty to animals.

Mass killers start by harming or torturing pets. And then they go to, you know, like a troubled teen starts killing pets or torturing them. And then the next thing, it's their wife. And then the next thing it's their wife and the next thing it's their baby you know it's not pulling a cat's tail or trying to ride your dog around the front yard that that's not it it's not that it's torturing them just like bobby brown is telling us do you i mean i can recall a case luke woodham. He went to Pearl High School. Do you remember him? He stabbed his mom to death, and then he opened with a hail of bullets on classmates, then a hunting knife, killing two little girls. Well, we found out he had tortured and killed his pet dog, Sparkle. And he described his dog, Murder, as his, quote, first kill.

I remember about Kip Kinkle. He shot his parents to death, then unleashed on Thurston High School. He had bragged forever about how he tortured animals. And I told you, Jeff Dahmer, the Boston Stranger, the son of Sam. It goes on and on and on. This is classic, Cheryl McCollum. It is so classic, but here's the difference in this person. Dahmer carries around this dead squirrel that he just got from the woods.

This guy is connected to his own animal. He's more of a revenge killer of people he knows or is connected to. That's what's kind of unusual about him. That is unusual, too. Art Harris, Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter. Art, weigh in. Nancy, the animal cruelty is so in line also with domestic violence. And in this case, before he slaughtered 26 people in that small church, he had beat his

wife and child and been convicted in a court-martial in 2012 when he was serving in the Air Force in New Mexico. He got a bad conduct discharge, served a year in the brig or confinement, and suddenly he's out as a wife-beater and abuser, and he is able to buy a gun. How did that happen? That is the travesty here. The Air Force now admits it failed to enter his domestic violence conviction into the civil system, meaning it's not in the national information data crime base that the FBI uses when you go into a gun store and fill out a form that the gun seller has to run through that system. And if you have been adjudicated mentally ill,

or if you've been convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence, or a felon, or dishonorable discharge, you are rejected. Well, he went into a store. He was able to buy four guns. In Colorado, he bought two. And in Texas in 2016, where he bought this Ruger AR-15 style assault weapon, Nancy, he filled out the background check, my sources say. And it sailed right through because, number one, he did not have a dishonorable discharge but a bad conduct discharge. So he could say that he was not discharged that way from the military, but they never saw his background as a wife-beater,

and he was able to buy that gun. So here we are with a guy walking around who has all these convictions, is a felon, is a bully, and he has just got a passport to kill now. Cheryl McCollum, crime scene expert. I want to follow up on what Art Harris is reporting. You know, how many times, Cheryl, have you walked by my courtroom and I was prosecuting and I'd just be slumped over sitting there, not in front of the jury, of course. I'd wait until they left.

But I would be thinking, woulda, coulda, shoulda, if a judge hadn't let him out, if the pardoned parole hadn't let this guy out on parole, if he hadn't gotten a right sentence to start with, if this victim had gone to police in 1995, then blah, blah, blah, then this wouldn't have happened. This wouldn't have happened if, if, if, if, if, woulda, coulda, shoulda. You know what? I could say that right now, Cheryl, in fact, I'm getting chills on my arms thinking of all those cases when I would analyze it to just bits until my head was about to blow up how this could have been stopped.

Art correctly is pointing out that the military did not enter his criminal problems in the computer or in the database and therefore he bought a gun. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. This guy was a powder keg waiting to blow, Cheryl. He would have done it no matter what he would have done it no matter what and he would have done it by any means necessary there's been some reports that he had explosives in the car nancy he fractured that child's skull without a gun he beat his wife without a gun he had the knowledge to put together some type of explosive he wanted i mean that's an easy Google search for any idiot that's willing to do that. This person has been on psych drugs since the 6th or 9th grade.

Some reports are saying he's been a problem. High school friends were fleeing from him on Facebook and every other way they could. If he hadn't bought a gun, he would have stolen one. He's not going to stop if that's his intention. I mean, Cheryl, I almost feel like breaking down crying right now. Gosh, when I think about these children, that pregnant lady, the mother of four. I mean, Cheryl, you already know. I get up at 5 o'clock in the morning every morning to get everything ready for twins.

That's two children, all right? For them to get to school on time and blah, blah, blah, and take care of them. She had four children and pregnant. I just, oh, and I'm thinking, how could this have been stopped if only they had put this in the database? But you know what? You're right, Cheryl. It was going to happen, come hell or high water.

He was going to do this thing. Dr. Chloe Carmichael, psychologist, creator, anxietytools.com. Dr. Chloe, why do I look for somebody to blame? It would be so easy to blame the Air Force or the military right now. It's not their fault he did this thing. It just makes me feel better to say they did it. It's their fault. We can fix this. Is that makes me feel better to say they did it. It's their fault. We can fix this. Is that what it is? I want to fix it. So in order to fix it, you have to find who to blame first. Why does it feel so much better to be able to blame somebody? Because it's nobody.

It's Devin Patrick Kelly's fault. Nobody else's. Exactly. Exactly, Nancy. Of course, we always do try to search for somebody that we can blame for a couple of reasons. First of all, it gives us a target for our anger. And exactly as you said, it also gives us the idea that somebody, you know, can be corrected so that this won't happen again. If only they had changed their process or something like that, so we can think that we're more protected against this in the future. I want to go back to Bobby Brown, private investigator, who's been investigating into Devin Patrick Kelly's background. Bobby, you have uncovered this police report where he was just beating a dog, punching it in the face. And at first I thought, well, maybe the dog attacked somebody. Maybe the dog did this. No, he told police because the dog ran away that's why

he was punching at the dog whimpering and and you know the other day what did the dog do the dog growled our little mutt growled he's he's eight inches tall he's a mini he's supposed to be a mini dachshund but he's so not he's a mutt grow at Lucy. And I'm like, you are not growling at Lucy. And you know those cinnamon, Cheryl, do you know those cinnamon brooms they sell in front of the grocery store? It's like 20 twigs coated in cinnamon to put together to look like a broom, and you're supposed to put it and make it smell. So I took the 20 twigs, and I chased the dog out with the broom. All right. He got outside, and he lowered his

little rear end. He looked so pitiful, like he thought I was going to hit him, and of course, I broke down and started crying. I'm like, fat boy, mommy's not going to spank you. Just don't growl at Lucy. I felt so bad. All right. Bobby Brown, this guy is punching the dog in the face with the dog crying and whining. Bobby, what more have you learned about this guy? There's been, you know, so much talk about the weapons and that he did purchase two weapons in Colorado. And I will find out sometime later today, but there's a very good possibility that I found out where he did purchase possibly the AR-15, and that may have been right here in Colorado Springs.

But it's important to say, though, that everybody is, you know, they want to blame the Air Force right now, but had he not had the weapons, he could have had a pressure cooker. He was absolutely determined that he was going to you're right, that's what Cheryl and I were just talking about that he did all these other things without weapons guys, it would not be right for me to go forward

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LegalZoom, thank you for helping America's business owners. And I personally want to thank you for being our partner today to make our investigation possible. Thank you, LegalZoom. With me, Art Harris, Emmy Award-winning investigative reporter, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, Dr. Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist, creator of anxietytools.com, and Private Eye, Bobby Brown. Bobby Brown, what more have you learned? I think it's important that we touch on the fact that they say that, you know, he was mentally ill, but, you know, as a former homicide

investigator, I can tell you that he was so methodic in his planning of the shooting. He thought about getting bulletproof vests, so obviously he wanted to make sure that he was protected in that way. I think that it will be really important to see in the autopsy what type of drugs was he taking, what was in his system? And, you know, what drove all of this anger? And why did he come to Colorado? And I hope to have all of that even by the end of today. And I think the biggest thing that I will have is the purchase of

at least one of the weapons that I'm relatively positive happened right here in Colorado. Out to investigative reporter Art Harris. Art, I want to follow up on what Bobby Brown was telling us about him purchasing a bulletproof vest. It didn't help him in the end, Art Harris. What do you know? Nancy, this was one of the many things he had on, and he was armed for war. The former Air Force veteran dishonorably or bad conduct discharged for beating his wife. He had body armor. He had all black tactical gear.

He had this AR-15 style weapon with extra magazines and other guns, possibly explosives in his car. He was in a showdown that he aimed to avenge what he perceived to be family issues. And among the people in the church, Nancy, I'm now learning was possibly his wife's grandmother. So his in-laws were getting text messages from him, angry text messages over a period of time. He was obsessed, as Cheryl and others are saying, with this woman, his child. People like this look at them as objects that they own and have a right to, and his furies were building over time as he built up his ammunition and his arsenal. Suddenly, he unleashed it that day. To Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute and a crime scene expert, let's talk about this guy and his bulletproof vest and his

methodical planning, as Bobby Brown pointed out. Cheryl? Okay, let's talk about the truth, Nancy. He's a punk. He's weak. He's pathetic, and he knows it. That's the reason he goes after a baby, an infant. That's the reason he goes after a weak girl. That's the reason he goes after a baby, an infant. That's the reason he goes after a weak girl. That's the reason he goes into a soft target like a church where he knows there's going to be no other weapon to stop him. That's the reason he puts on a bulletproof vest. He's a punk. He referred to his gun as a bad bitch.

He's just a bitch. You know, Cheryl, we know essentially what happened to him in the end. But I want you to hear from his own mouth what that hero who chased him down has to say. Listen. You saw two men shooting at each other. Yes, sir. The other hero tells you that this killer just shot up a church. He drives off.

He tells you to chase him. You tell me. You say, let's go. Yeah. Did you have any second thoughts? What was running through your head right then? Nothing. Get him.

Why? Because that's what you do. The other guy, anything you can tell us about him? You know, he's very much a hero. He acted quicker than he could think as well. He did absolutely the right thing, which was try and take him down on the scene. You know, from what I know, you know, from what I know, he was just taking a nap and heard the gunshots and reacted.

What kind of gun did he have? He had an AR-15. So they both, both the killer and the individual you drove had AR-15s. The killer, from what I heard, had a pistol during the firefight, which is the main part that I saw. And then the guy with you, the other hero, had his own AR-15. Yes, he had his own AR-15, yes, sir. And he came out, he was barefooted he was barefoot yes yeah he he had no shoes on or nothing but he was he was ready to act and

the moment police got there and everything you know he did all the right things that was johnny langerdorf now listen. I heard a shot is the people that church, they're friends of mine, their family. And every time I heard a shot, I knew that that probably represented a life. I was scared to death. I was. I was scared for me, and I was scared for every one of them, and I was scared for my own family that just lived less than a block away. I'm no hero.

I am not. I think my God, my Lord, protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done. And I just wish I could have gotten there faster. But I didn't know. I didn't know what was happening. That was Stephen Williford. So Art Harris, tell me in the end what went down.

In the end nancy this neighbor with a gun sees guy come out of the church and is determined not to let him get away he pulls his own gun it's unclear when he fired this guy pat this guy kelly dropped the weapon got in his truck and fled to only to be pursued by hero hero, local hero, and a friend at the wheel.

He runs off the road, crashes, and is found with a gunshot wound that is fatal. And they're trying to determine whether it was self-inflicted or if it was from this guy's gun. I know right now the very latest is that he had three gunshot wounds, Cheryl McCollum. I find it very difficult to believe he self-inflicted three gunshot wounds, Cheryl McCollum. I find it very difficult to believe he self-inflicted three gunshot wounds. These heroes had a hand in this, Cheryl. No question, Nancy. The old saying, the only way to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun. He was shot in the leg and the torso, we believe, by an armed citizen. He was found dead in his vehicle.

He also had a gunshot wound to the head. Now, after the single deadliest shooting in Texas history, we are trying to find out why. We know he called his father to tell him that he was shot what does that mean what if anything does that mean on his last moments on earth that's what he did 26 dead in the house of worship the investigation goes on let me pause and thank our partner making today's investigation into the Texas church shooting possible. On a happy note, it's linkakc.com. You know, guys, we were just talking about how this guy treated his dog,

and it was one of the first indicators that he would graduate to homicide. That's a tried and true fact. You know, when I look at my little puppy dog, all I think is happy thoughts. Happy, happy. You know, the twins, all they wanted was a dog and a cat. All they wanted. That's it.

And it was one of the last things my dad that, you know, was my real soulmate, dead on earth. We went and we got a dog and a cat from the pound. Now, they told me Fat Boy was a purebred dachshund. All right, guess what? He's not. But I love that dog so much and Cinnamon Girl the cat too. And I'm always looking for new things to do or new things to help the two of them. And now I found this incredible new collar and it is called Link AKC and I want you to know about it because it's so much more than a collar. Collar is really not even the right word for it.

It's backed by the American Kennel Club. The Link AKC collar is a GPS locator. That's the key. Also get this, it's a fitness activity tracker. Yes, for a dog, and a smartphone app rolled into one. Now, the thing I like the best is the GPS locator. For instance, while I'm here working, I don't have to worry that fat boy is at home, aka Nitro. That's the name the pound gave him. We immediately changed him to fat boy one night when he fell asleep in the food bag. And the next morning,

he was laying there on his back and his tummy was so big it was hanging over to one side. Hence the name fat boy. I don't have to worry that Fat Boy has jumped over the fence and is running down the street either chasing or being chased by a car. I know where he is. It's total peace of mind. I can see exactly where Fat Boy is right on the app. Now here's, I love this part, the activity and wellness tracker. It doesn't matter how old or fat your dog is. It shows the exact amount of activity every dog needs, and it's easy to set up, which is good for me, who's always in a hurry, and sizes for every dog. Link AKC looks great. He's very handsome in his collar. Check him out

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doing with Fat Boy. A multi-millionaire. Repeat, a multi-millionaire now suspected of human trafficking, of sex trafficking. A U.S. multi-millionaire, the darling of Wall Street, and the guy that is intimately entwined with George Soros, the billionaire. He was one of Soros, the billionaire. He was one of Soros' former managers. Right now, claims that Howard Howie Rubin, raped and assaulted, beat, beat, flat out beat, three women, lured them for purposes of sex trafficking. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You know, when I make bold and brash comments like crime is all across the boards, it doesn't matter what color you are, what your heritage is, whether you're rich, poor, whether you've got your doctorate degree or you didn't finish elementary school, crime affects your life. I learned it the hard way when my fiance was murdered. This proves it. Joining me right now, renowned psychologist,

joining me out of Manhattan, Karen Stark. Also with me, death investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. And Alan, do you joining me from L.A.? You know, to you, Joe Scott Morgan, I say it, but I don't think people really believe it. But crime is across the boards. And this proves that when I was prosecuting in inner city Atlanta, I could have rich stockbrokers come in for distributing meth or crack or cocaine. And I could have street dealers, penny ante street dealers.

I mean, it didn't matter. I had rich business owners kill their wives. And I had people in the street shoot somebody dead over a $ dollar hit of crack a rock so it's true but this really proves it joseph scott morgan yeah you're absolutely right nancy uh evil evil and crime there there are no socioeconomic boundaries with this uh and in a case like this it would seem that evil literally has no basement to it, considering the nature of these crimes that have been committed. It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor. What matters is the condition of your mind and the condition of your heart. And

in this particular case, this is just... Heart! Heart! You think this guy has a heart? Listen to this, Karen Stark. This guy, this multimillionaire, stated that he would rape and attack the three ladies in a sex dungeon in his penthouse apartment that he bought with his millions of dollars specifically for these attacks. And then would leave and go, quote, back to his wife and kids on the Upper East Side. So he would go rape these ladies in some kind of a dungeon where he kept them literally enslaved and then go back to his wife and kids uptown. Karen? I'll tell you, Nancy, it belies your imagination to know that this guy, he was featured in bestselling books like Liar's Poker and The Big Short, and that he actually paid for this place where he had all of these chains and whips, and he paid these women to come so he could actually abuse them. Now, wait a minute. Human trafficking is different from hiring a hooker to let you spank her or hit her with a whip. That's a whole other can of worms.

So what exactly are we talking about, Alan D? I know that he was a manager of one of George Soros investment funds. First of all, tell me about who is George Soros? I think that's very critical to this. George Soros is one of the richest men in the world. He has a lot of investments. He's especially known for investments around the former Soviet Union and in Europe. But he is an American and he's very involved in American politics, too. What do you mean by that? He's very involved in American politics. George Soros is one of the richest men in the world and he manages all he has

a lot of investments. He's especially known for investments in asia and around the former soviet union and in europe but he is an american and he's very involved in american politics too okay you know how i feel about politicians they all lie so republican democrat or green they're all lying sorry there you go so george soros soros is a billionaire, and this guy managed one of his investment funds. Now, let's get down to the facts in this case. I am talking about a multimillionaire. He's filthy rich. And when I say filthy, that's just what I mean.

In Manhattan, they kept a dungeon for women that he kept as sex trafficking slaves. Now, again, that's a lot different than some guy hiring a hooker. Now, why is he being accused of sex trafficking, Alan? Give me those facts. Because of the way that it was allegedly done. He had a, quote, enterprise. He had employees, staff members, and including a lawyer, allegedly, who would scout out these women, mostly in Florida, finding them through social media. They would have these Instagram accounts where they – these are former Playboy playmates.

Two of the three women in this allegation, this lawsuit, are former Playboy playmates. They would find them. Wait, wait, wait. Why are you throwing that fact in? You think I care? Well, that's in? You think I don't care if it's a playboy playmate or Mother Teresa, God rest her soul. It doesn't matter. Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold, Alan Duke. I agree with you. She does not distinguish between victims or defendants. Well, these were not necessarily or even allegedly hookers. These were women who were

contacted and said, look, nobody even said they were hookers. You said they were playboy playmates. You mentioned it earlier. Okay. I said that because the, you said these were people he would pay to use whips on them. No, no, no. They didn't know that they were going to have whips used. That's what I'm okay. You know what? Let's start at square eight. Let's start at the beginning. Every day we start this show. I don't know if you're going to pull out the whips on me. Just go with yes, and you'll be safe. Usually. Just go with yes.

Now, start at the beginning. We'll start with Soros. He's the billionaire. And now we've got this guy, Ruben, that works for him. He's the millionaire. All right. Take it from there. He's 62 years old.

He has this staff that he allegedly uses. Which proves a man is never too old for a sex attack. Go ahead. That's what I've always thought. He's got these staff members who scout out these women allegedly on Instagram, send them invites, say, hey, we're going to fly you to New York. I bet they're glad they went and got their Wharton MBA to go work for Soros so they can go on Instagram to look at the next sex trafficking victim. That's the allegation. If that is true, frankly, they need to be roped in on this investigation as well. That's a whole nother can of worms. Go ahead. So he has flunkies looking for women online. And flies them from Florida or wherever to New York, takes them to this

penthouse and says, on JetBlue, an $8 million penthouse in Manhattan. And as you said correctly, it allegedly was only rented for the purpose because in a side room of this Manhattan penthouse, he had a dungeon that was equipped with all kinds of sex toys and torture equipment And then he allegedly would drug them chain them up beat them Sometimes so brutally that they had to have medical attention One of these women actually had to have her breast implants flipped over again Because of the damage that allegedly was done. Hold on. I've been a little bit joking about this guy because I find him contemptible if these claims are true. But listen to this,

Karen Stark, to what Alan Duke is reporting. The women claim Rubin and his associates trick them, lure them to New York City on JetBlue flights after being contacted on Instagram. Once they get there, they claim he drugs them and beats them so violently being bound and gagged and then beaten in a sex dungeon and hitting a one of the women so hard that he hit her in the breast so hard it flipped her breast implant around now to me not only is that you know know, an aggravated assault, a felony, but it's very, very telling that you would hit a lady in her private parts. It's telling because it shows the kind of rage that he has toward women. And it supposedly, allegedly, he said, I'm going to one of them, i'm going to rape you like i raped my daughter that's that's something that they say he said to one of them which says that even his own daughter

isn't somebody that he sees without feeling that kind of fury and anger. So I mean, even when you look at someone who's a killer, you take a look to see what they're doing, the kind of damage that they're doing to women. And anyone who does that is someone who has vicious feelings toward women. I mean, you know, psychologically, and I brought this in in cases that I prosecuted before, for instance, if you slash a woman's face, you're trying to disfigure her beauty. If you chop off her hair, like we saw in the Teresa Hallback case, which was the Stephen Avery making a murder case, he chopped her hair off before he tied her up with chains, assaulted her, and then killed her. There is something very specific psychologically when you attack a certain part of a person. Like, say, you want to get to somebody, you steal all their money. You funnel all their money because that's all they care about.

Or you steal their pet dog or or something that means something to them in this case disfiguring a lady by slashing her face or putting acid on her face or beating her in the breasts it's very telling about his state of mind joseph scott morgan you have investigated many, many death scenes. What do you make of the theory that I'm advancing right now? Nancy, you know, I've seen this time and time again in these brutal sexually related assault cases that I've worked over the course of my career with these people who are truly sexual sadists that go out and they attack these women. They will go as far as literally removing the body parts of women.

They're doing it as an attack, a sexualized attack on these individuals to completely humiliate them, debase them, take away everything that identifies them as a woman. It destroys their beauty. And that's kind of what you're looking at here. I'm very curious if these are the only three people he's done this to, because this sounds like he's had some practice at it. This guy, Howard Rubin, has been married since the 80s to his former Harvard Business School classmate, Mary Henry. They have three children together.

And as Karen Stark pointed out, he is an infamous Wall Street trader who was actually blamed for bringing about $377 million of losses, $377 million of losses at Merrill Lynch. And he's in the book Liar's Poker. He hasn't responded to these allegations yet. What more do we know about the facts? This lawsuit is a civil lawsuit, not criminal. But they're doing it under RICO laws, Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, claiming that there was an enterprise that he created.

So this is a pretty serious thing. They're asking for $27 million for these three women. The women are not named. However, as Joseph Scott Morgan said, you might think that there were other women involved and these are the only ones involved in this lawsuit. They're claiming that they suffered emotional distress, assault battery. But I'm wondering why there are not criminal charges. And is there a criminal investigation going on now? You know what? I wonder that, too.

And it brings to mind the whole Harvey Weinstein debacle where this went on literally for decades and no law enforcement did a thing. And now the NYPD, who I love, by the way, the highest echelons. I'm not talking about the street cops. I'm talking about the highest echelons amongst prosecutors. That was the real problem, that wouldn't prosecute the case after cops brought the Weinstein case to them. They're now being shamed into acting because London, the Brits, have opened up criminal investigations on Weinstein. So why has

it been hands off on this guy? Like nobody knew what was happening. So he would warn them, I'm going to rape you, punch them, gag them, bind them, hit one woman so hard she passed out. So to Joe Scott Morgan, what more do we know about the case? It describes four particular incidents in 2016. What more do we know? Based upon what we're hearing, what we're reading, these women were severely assaulted, severely assaulted, and what's really what's really great about this from an evidentiary standpoint, they will have had to have sought medical attention in this. It's not like we have rape kits and that sort of thing to go back on. We have their word, but we also have this documented in medical records.

They can bring these doctors in and bring their medical records in, in this particular case. They can take a look at them, and they can document what these women went through physically, the trauma that they endured. And this is going to paint a very graphic, graphic picture in court. Well, there are also problems with the case. And I'm looking at it not only from a criminal point of view, because in a rape case in New York now, I don't believe there's a statute of limitations. So this case can be brought. Yes, there are going to be problems. There are.

But that doesn't mean the case shouldn't be brought. I mean, if you only bring the cases you think you're definitely going to win to a jury, I mean, all you're going to be representing are nuns and priests and virgins, for Pete's sake. Well, that's not how victims come. They don't come that way. The problems are these. The women left the dungeon, but they came back. Also, they did not call police at the time. What are the problems with the case, Alan Duke?

Well, they're just like you said, they didn't go to the cops. But this is a civil case. They're just trying to show damages, and you do have physical damage. But then again, this man has already allegedly paid $20,000 to have this woman's breast reconstructed after the alleged rape. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, I didn't know that part. Yeah, they've already paid money. Every time a woman was hurt, she got the $5,000, allegedly, and medical expenses. Well, they say that once they were in his penthouse, after he lured them here, lured

them there, he would then turn on them. His whole demeanor, his facade would change, and he would then turn on them his whole demeanor his facade would change and he would rape them and beat them so severely they needed medical treatment then as flunkies or as they say associates would offer them more cash in exchange for silence and paid all their medical bills they had to he paid their medical bills that that is documented. This is crazy. They had to sign NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, before they entered the penthouse. They had to sign this statement saying that what happened inside stays inside. I don't know how legal that is.

Not at all. And also, as far as proof goes, Karen Stark, it will be just a matter of computer forensics for someone, you know, like Ben Levitan, my buddy, the telecommunications expert, to look up how they were contacted on Instagram. they would be contacted by a Rubin associate who had been trolling for them online stating he would like to meet her in New York and in fact in the Instagram they even referred to him as H all of this will turn out being evidence this is just another example of online crime in my mind. Karen? It's also another example of the kind of arrogance that you see in Harvey Weinstein. The very thing that you brought up, Nancy, where somebody who feels that they are powerful enough and they could use their money and their power to do whatever they would like to do to victimize women, abuse them, and destroy them.

And it just makes you think about how often, not this particular example, but how often that goes on with women where people pay them or have power over them so they can dominate them. So where does this stand right now, Alan Deeb? Well, it was just filed just very recently, and there's been no response to it from Mr. Rubin or his lawyers. So it's going to go through the federal court, civil court process. I'm sure there'll be depositions, et cetera, et cetera. This is an example.

We talk about why there aren't prosecutors and a criminal case on this. This lawsuit was brought by lawyers who make a good living off of finding people who were hurt and suing on their behalf on a contingency. These lawyers stand to make an awful lot of money. I don't know the percentage. Where do they get a third of whatever is the judgment? So that's where it's going. It's just going to go through this long protracted legal unless he reaches a settlement. The women state that he would take them out for dinner and drinks where he was cordial and respectful. Then they would all go back to his place. And suddenly, as soon as they were there his demeanor would change he would fix them drinks out of sight which they now say they're convinced was spiked that he had some

kind of a large x-shaped machine with straps a bench full face masks with zippers and metal hooks that he would immediately slap them across the face, that everything was unexpected. They did not realize that that was what was going to happen. I just wonder if this is going to result, Joseph Scott Morgan, in any criminal charges, or do you think the prosecutor's office believes you have to be pure as the driven snow to be a victim in their courthouse? One of the things I'm wondering about here is, did he videotape? Did he record any of these events? And if he did, many times with these kind of serialized events, these people will hang on to this for forever and ever because they like to

go back and relive this. And if the police do a thorough job, if they can get their electronic surveillance people in from a forensics perspective and dig through his files, there is all kinds of damning information that could be dug up on this fellow. Because, you know, when he's at home living the normal kind of Norman Rockwell life that he might perceive himself with his family, he might go into some dark place and review this stuff hidden away from everybody else because he's leading this double life. We stand by waiting for the latest in this case, a multimillionaire now accused of sex trafficking in these papers. And how, Alan, are they getting the charge sex trafficking versus a simple sex assault?

Well, it's under the RICO provisions, the RICO Act. And I think they're going to try to prove that there was an enterprise because he had employees. He had a lawyer allegedly helping him. It was an organization and they trafficked them because they brought them from Florida under false pretenses to New York, to Manhattan, and then did this to them. Well, you know what? You're right about that. And nothing makes me madder than a crime, not only violent in nature, but committed by someone that believes they are above the law because they're not. God willing, they're not. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing

off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.