Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Texas mom missing, but cops think young daughter witnessed her murder

Episode Date: March 15, 2019

Andreen McDonald is still missing and presumed dead two weeks after she vanished from her San Antonio, Texas, home, while her husband Andre McDonald is jailed on an evidence tampering charge. Cops say the Air Force officer was lawyered up in and was uncooperative when their investigation started in early March. Nancy Grace digs into the case with experts including criminal lawyer Darryl Cohen, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, private investigator Vincent Hill, and syndicated radio host David Mack. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Sheriff Javier Salazar says Andre McDonald, a major in the Air Force, refused to help investigators find his wife. Investigators say they found blood and hair on a light switch and a burn pile in the backyard of the couple's far north side home. Investigators found disturbing items at the home, including an axe, a shovel, and gasoline. Quite frankly, there may be a body out laying in the woods that, again,

would help us bring closure to this case and to one little girl that I feel that we owe answers to. And I'm not going to rest until we find her and until we get her back to her family. Where is Andrene McDonald? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, an all-star panel. Atlanta criminal lawyer, former prosecutor, now renowned defense attorney, Daryl Cohen. Forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Daniel Bober. lawyer, former prosecutor, now renowned defense attorney Daryl Cohen, forensic psychiatrist

Dr. Daniel Bober, Vincent Hill, private investigator, author of Playbook to a Murder. Joining me right now, syndicated talk show host Dave Mack. Okay, I want to start at the beginning where every investigation starts. When did we last see Andrene McDonald? Wait a minute. I want to start before that. Tell me about her. I was reading

an article about her, Dave Mack, that was in a ladies magazine or ladies column before she ever went missing. What can you tell me about her? Andreen was a graduated from University of Texas at San Antonio, graduated with honors, bachelor's of science in finance. She also is a certified dementia practitioner and a certified assistant living manager. But you're going so fast. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Okay. Hold on. Did you say she graduated with honors from University of Texas? Is that what you said? Yes, ma'am. Okay. Wow. Because that's an awesome school. And after she graduates with honors from University of Texas, what happens then? Well, you know, she actually, type A personality, according to all of her friends,

she's a go-getter, and she actually was certified in dementia as a practitioner and a certified assistant living manager. And with those skills, she opened up her own business. And within a very short period of time, Nancy, she was winning awards. She won the Service Excellence Award for the Starlight Homes that she owned and was well liked by her employees. People loved her. She even opened up a second assisted living home. She was just going gangbusters with this business. I'm reading about her in something called San Antonio Woman Connect. And this is something Alan Duke

sent me. It's got this gorgeous picture of her standing there. It looks like a business outfit of some sort. And it says award winners. And she's standing by it. So she must have won some sort of award. Business name Starlight Homes Assisted Living. She's the owner and it says andre mcdonnell owner operator starlight homes assisted living two facilities providing personal care services for the elderly in the san antonio region she is a wife and a mother tell me about her being a wife and a mother dave mac well she and her husband andre um been married for several years they have a six-year-old daughter. She has autism and is fairly nonverbal, but she actually can speak and can indicate, and that means something in this investigation, actually,

but they've talked about it a lot, about how the daughter is fairly nonverbal. Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. So she's got children. She's married. They have a long-time marriage, and one of the girls,

one of her children, autistic, you know, I'm, I'm reading a little bit more here. She earned a bachelor's of science in finance with honors. Magna cum laude. Wow. Okay. She's no idiot. She was at the top 100 business students. She's a certified dementia practitioner. You told me that. A certified assisted living manager. Wow. Okay, you know what? I'm going to go straight to Dr. Daniel Bober before I go one more inch. Men, don't get angry. Jackie, you're with me here in the studio. Alan, you can fume out in your posh penthouse pad in LA. Have you ever noticed, Dr. Daniel Bober, and try to take your man-ness out of this. Have you ever noticed when the woman is really successful and she's smart and she's awesome, the husband gets jealous? That's one thing I love about David. He, when I do well,

he's thrilled. My dad was like that. When my mom did well at work, he was so happy. Never, you know, thought anything about it. Why are men still stuck in that rut, Dr. Daniel Bober? They should be happy when the woman does well. Well, I think part of it, there is certainly a gender differential reaction. I think that, you know, society... Okay, I don't know what you just said. Or as I like to quote Batman, I hate everything you just said. A gender differential what? Now you need to listen to this, Daryl Cohen.

Go ahead, Boba. So to use simpler words, basically, you know, men are supposed to take on certain roles in society. And so when women are more successful than men, men don't feel as macho. They don't feel like good providers that they're not, you know, being aggressive enough or dumb. So when they're not, they often feel insecure. Hold on. Let me go to Daryl Cohen on this. Daryl, I heard Dr. Daniel Bober say, let me put it in simple terms, translation Nancy, you're an idiot. You know what? I accept that Dr. Daniel Bober. I don't have a problem with that because I have had medical examiners and doctors talk down to me my whole life. And guess what? They're right. I don't know what they're talking about.

Daryl Cohen, the reality is when you put a witness on the stand, like someone like Dr. Daniel Bober, a forensic psychiatrist, you have to tell them ahead of time, they have to dummy down because we didn't go to medical school. We didn't get an extra degree in psychiatry. So when they throw out terms, this is a trial tactic. Some lawyers are really impressed and love to throw around Latin terms and medical terms. Juries don't understand it. I mean, it's like shooting yourself in the foot, Daryl Cohen. It's almost as if when I put a witness on the stand like that,

I want that witness to dumb it down, but I look up to the witness and make the jury think that I am so impressed with the simplicity of the witness. And that gives the jury some authority to know they really know what's going on as opposed to the Latin curve. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like this. I would have to write. I remember going to the Latin curve. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like this. I would have to write.

I remember going to the medical exam, and I'm sure they all shuddered when they saw my beat-up Honda pulling up with the smoke coming out from under the hood because it would take me forever, Daryl, and I'd book brief it. In other words, I'd have the medical examiner's autopsy report. There would be scribbling writing all the way down both columns where they would interpret all of their terms,

and I'd have to write it down so when I got in front of the jury, I could explain it. So, Dr. Bober, no offense, but please, dumb me down for me. Is that going to exist forever, or are men ever going to get over it? Well, Nancy, first of all, I would never ever dream of talking down to you. But second of all, I think that I am. I think there are some men that are just very insecure. They don't feel confident within themselves. And so a lot of them have to bring down their women there with to feel like they're, you know, superior. And it comes from an internal lack of, you know, self-concept and insecurity. Not to say that this particular husband was insecure. I'm just noting how successful and smart she is. Okay, Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host,

I'm so far afield right now. But this is the thing, Dave Mack, and Jackie Howard, I think you can identify with this. When I would go out to prepare a case and I'd go to a witness's home I'd like to sit down with a witness on their sofa I remember one lady Miss Leola her home was gorgeous everything was completely white and she had everything covered in that real hard plastic and I would sit down on the plastic every time and she would bring me a cup of coffee or tea or whatever and very carefully translation do not spill this on my white upholstery but do you know she became one of my very very best friends her her son was killed in a murder over a ten dollar debt and to just sit down and talk to the witness hear them hear what they have to say, all the background,

because the devil is in the details, Dave Mack. Yes, ma'am. The devil is in the details. Now, you're telling me about her success. She has children. You told me about one that's autistic. That takes a lot of love, okay? Did she have any other children?

Not that I'm aware of, Nancy. Okay, so one child. You know, that's a big stress on a marriage right there, just having children, period. Would you agree, Jackie? Just any, yeah. Okay. She's, yeah. She's crying. I wonder why. So that's enough stress, much less trying to help an autistic child through the world. Very difficult. So Dave Mack, can I move us up to the day she goes missing? And I know she's busy. She's running two facilities. She's got an autistic child. She's got a husband. Now, where do I go from there? Her normal routine was to start at the gym at 5 a.m. She didn't show up.

Oh, dear Lord in heaven. I'm a failure. Okay. So did you say at the gym at 5 a.m.? Yes, ma'am. She had a regular routine, and it was so regular that when she didn't show up at 5 a.m. to work out with her friends, they immediately started thinking, hey, something's wrong. When she didn't show up for work, that's when they knew, we've got to go to the house. We've got to find out what's going on. She wasn't answering her phone. Andre wasn't answering his phone. So these two friends, they go to her house. The search for Andre Nicole McDonald hits close to home for so many San Antonians. Melinda Pinnell is a former military police officer, a female entrepreneur and a mom. She's a local businesswoman. The fact that she's a spouse of an Air Force major, the fact that so many people, friends and family that know and love her

have said what an amazing woman she is. Just it inspired me to say I need to do my part. She was one of around 500 people who canvassed the post looking for signs of McDonald. The sheriff's office says McDonald has been missing since March 1st when she didn't make it to work and wasn't at her home in far North Bear County. Family and friends are holding out hope and even those who don't know her say they're keeping the search top of mind. As a fellow female, as a fellow San Antonian to come out and help to do my part. You are hearing our friends at KENS 5 Eyewitness News. That was Erica Zucco reporting on missing Andrene McDonald, a mom, a business person, a wife, loyal to friends and family.

Still, we don't know where Andrene McDonald is. The tip line, 210-335-6070. Repeat, 210-335-6070. To Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now renowned Atlanta criminal defense attorney. Daryl, I'm listening to her friend, and it reminds me of the camaraderie and the friends that I had within the district attorney's office, and especially with my investigator, Ernest. And when you go through so much together, and I've told this story before, Daryl. I was out, I believe I was in the Red Oak Housing Project. I think that's where I was, looking for witnesses with Ernest.

And it was bright, bright early morning. And you know, all the dopers sleep till two or three o'clock. So we knew we were going to find witnesses. All right. And that's who I was looking for, a doper. And we knocked at the door and it was dark on the inside. The door was open except for a screen door. And I remember he saw it first. The barrel of shotgun came out, and he grabbed me by the shoulders, and we both dove off of the porch into the bushes. That's just one example of things that happen that you really bond with people over the years,

and this woman, Andrea McDonald, has all these friends out looking for her. I'm really impressed with who she is, Daryl. I'm very impressed with who she is, and I'm afraid to say who she was. But it seems to me that she has just reached such great heights in all the things that she did because life for her was a very good one with all the people that she dealt with. So it's not a good thing that she's disappeared. Yeah, especially her routine. And you know, I always refer to the Adnan Syed case, Daryl, when I'm talking about, quote, routine evidence, because the one day of all days that his girlfriend, who broke up with him, Hay Lee, disappears is a day he did not follow his routine for years.

Go to school, get out of school, go straight to track practice. His dad would pick him up. Same thing every day of his life. That day, suddenly, he decides to go to the public library. It's out of routine. Is the public library a crime? No, but it's not the routine. Dave Mack, you were telling me about her not being at the workout club at 5 a.m. You know, I was proud of myself that I get up at 5 a.m., but I am not on a treadmill at 5 a.m. I'm dragging around trying to get the children's breakfast ready. So, Dave Mack, you left off with the friends get to the home. What happens when they get to her

house? They aren't getting any answers on any of the phones. They go to the front door, no answer. So, they start going around the house trying to find any way to... Well, is her car there? Was her car there? Do you know? Car's in the garage. Yes, ma'am. Her Malibu is in the garage. Okay. Is her car there? Was her car there? Car's in the garage, yes, ma'am. Her Malibu is in the garage. And as the friends walked around, they found a back door unlocked and let themselves in. That's when they immediately saw certain evidence that made them realize we've got a bigger problem. That's actually, at the same time they're opening the door to go in, they notice a fresh burn pile in the backyard and what appears to be

maybe clothing that belonged to Andrene in this burn pile. That's when they call the police. Okay, wait a minute. The clothes belong to her, Andrene? Yes, ma'am. And when the police showed up, they actually found a whole lot more. The friends actually discovered blood and hair on a light switch. They found what appeared to be blood in the bathroom. When police were called and came out, they found even more evidence of other blood and the smell of bleach was very strong. So they suspected that it had been, you know, an attempt to clean this up as well. Hold on to Vincent Hill, private investigator and author of Playbook to a Murder on Amazon. So now we know.

They get there. The first thing when they see her Chevy Malibu parked, that's way wrong because she would have called her friends to say, I'm not going to make it today or to at least text them. They get there and the back door is open. Also wrong. She always locked her doors. We know whatever happened to Andrine happened that morning before she went to work out or to work. Now, it could have happened in the early morning hours. It could have happened during

the night. We don't know that yet. But Vincent Hill, the fact that they smell bleach, that says cover up. That says staging the scene, which is really just changing the scene in any way. And I've long said, and I want to hear what Daryl and Dr. Bober have to say about this. If it's a random kidnap or a, you know, you see a woman, you're like, hey, I'm going to rape her. I'm going to kidnap her. I'm going to steal her car or her valuables. You grab the woman and you leave. Here, the perp took the time to put out bleach and even more so to do a burn pit in the backyard. What does that mean, Vincent Hill? What it means to me is that it's not random. You're absolutely right, Nancy, because if it was a simple home invasion, no one's taking that much

time. They're getting in, they're getting out, they're doing what they got to do. But here's what's more troubling, Nancy. David talked about her going to the gym. I've been trolling her Instagram account and she's literally deadlifting 300 pounds. She literally has her husband on her back in one of the photos. So she's very strong. So whatever happened, it wasn't easy. I assure you there was a struggle going on inside that home, Nancy, and the fact that the neighbors found blood and clothing that were burned that belonged to her. Something horrible went on in that house, but it wasn't easy for whoever did it. Hey, Alan Duke, I want you to look at that article

that you unearthed and you sent to me. Look at her hair. Look how, well, she's beautiful. She's got a million dollar smile. I bet that costs some money right there. Teeth perfect. But look at her long hair. You know, that hair took hours to make it look like that.

I'm not kidding. I know from experience, not from my hair, but from my wife's hair. Yeah, you just take yours in a ponytail and go about your business. That's all I do. And look at that. And when I think about that hair getting yanked out of her head and mixed with blood on a light switch. Do you see her picture, Alan? I'm looking at her.

She's so beautiful. In fact, when I found this page, this is a page that is published before she became a news story for Vanishing. But it talks about how successful she is and what a tragedy if something happened to her because she was such a star in the San Antonio area. Well, you have a daughter and you've been through your ups and downs with her, as we all have, as we all have. And look how great she turned out, Alan. That's a testament to you and her mom. But I'm really worried about this autistic child,

who, as we learn, becomes a key piece of this investigation. crime stories with nancy grace investigators search for clues that can help them find a missing mother she's been missing for a week and bear county sheriff's investigators believe investigators believe her husband, Andre McDonald, played a role in her disappearance. Sheriff Javier Salazar says Andre McDonald, a major in the Air Force, refused to help investigators find his wife. Investigators say they found blood and hair on a light switch and a burn pile in the backyard of the couple's far north side home. Investigators found disturbing items at the home, including an ax, a shovel, and gasoline.

Quite frankly, there may be a body out laying in the woods that, again, would help us bring closure to this case and to one little girl that I feel that we owe answers to. And I'm not going to rest until we find her and until we get her back to her family. Where is Andrene McDonald? It's really disturbing me. Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host,

the husband isn't helping. He actually invoked the very first time that the police talked to him about his wife's disappearance. Interesting to all of this, Nancy, is that when police arrived the first time, they found Andrene's purse, ID card keys, and other personal items in a burn pile.

They then talked to Andre the very first time about his wife's whereabouts. And he told them his wife was at Baptist Emergency Hospital. Okay. She's at the hospital. They call and they're like, no, she's not. That's when he invoked. He said, I'm not talking to him where I want an attorney. So when you say he invoked, do you mean he invoked his right to remain silent, the Fifth Amendment protection? Yes, ma'am. Wow. And that's when they started following it. Let me go back to the crime scene, David Mack. And I refer to it as the crime scene because I'm convinced that's where

Andre McDonald was taken. Take me through all the evidence. For instance, what was in the garage, what was in the bathroom. Tell me everything. Okay. Well, when the police actually started doing a search of the home, okay,

they immediately found blood evidence on a light switch with hair. In the master bedroom, they found what appeared to be a lot of blood and more hair. In the bathroom, they found, once again, more blood that did turn out to be human blood. They found what appeared to be the, well, they could smell the bleach, so it appeared that there had been an attempt to clean up this scene. On top of that, there were, there was a burn pile that was witnessed by the two friends who showed up early, one burn pile. When the police arrived later that day, they found evidence of a second burn pile in the backyard, which is where they found a number of Audrey's personal effects in the burn pile. The police then found her Malibu in the garage, and they found other evidence around the home.

They found what appeared to be some items that had been purchased recently, a shovel, an axe, a hatchet, large garbage bags, gloves, two five-gallon gas cans. They also found a portable burn barrel. To Daryl Cohen, former felony prosecutor, Atlantic defense attorney Daryl Cohen, I'm thinking through all of this. I know the husband quit speaking immediately. The same thing happened with Scott Peterson.

And I remember Mark Geragos, his defense lawyer, now representing R. Kelly said at the time of course he clammed up and didn't want to talk because he was the focus he knew it with that he was the target it reminds me a lot of the JonBenet Ramsey case as well because whoever killed JonBenet was not worried that they would be caught by the inhabitants of the home. They staged the scene. They took time to write a three-page ransom note, and then another three-page ransom note. There was a practice note. They took a lot of time hiding JonBenet's body. And it's just interesting to me that someone would break into a home, commit a heinous crime, and then feel very at ease in taking their time to cover up the crime,

Daryl Cohen. You see, it seems to me that we have to look at the possibility, albeit very slight, that she stayed something. But when you have no worries, we mentioned that she had a routine. So he knows the routine. He knows that no one is going to be at the house. Whoever did this, and I'm saying he, whoever did this knew exactly how much time they had, which was just unlimited time. So there was no hurry. There was no, oh my gosh, I've got to get this done. I'm not worried about it. I have to methodically and meticulously take care of this scene to try to erase and eradicate anything that may be here that can incriminate me. So that is, I see it as you do at this time. Unusual, we see it together, but I think we see the same thing.

To Vincent Hill, private investigator, author of Playbook to a Murder, to me, the most valuable evidence is the blood evidence in the hair on the light switch because if it turns out she is dead, which I agree and I don't like it, but I think Andrean is dead, That shows me there was a great struggle. That tells me that it was not an accident, that it was not, oh, an accidental overdose of painkiller or sleeping pills. Tells me there was a violent struggle in that home, a struggle that required bleach to clean up the scene, Vincent Hill. Yeah, Nancy, it wasn't an accident. And keep in mind, too, if there was blood in here on a light switch, it happened over a period of time in probably several spots of that

house. So she was in agonizing pain while this was going on. She was probably trying to get away from the situation. I want to go to Dr. Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I've always been fascinated, not in a good way, a morbid fascination, when people have the wherewithal to clean up a murder or kidnap scene. I mean, what is going through their head? It reminds me of, for instance, Chris Watts. After he murdered his wife, Shanann, who was pregnant with baby Nico, then murdered both of his children, then crammed their bodies into oil drums to a very small opening, like a nine inch opening.

Imagine those little girls' shoulders going through that opening. Burying his wife in a shallow grave. What does he do stop by a convenience store and get a biscuit a ham biscuit or something and a drink and kind of chats up the blonde cashier it's like hey no problem I can't really relate to that because I'm just thinking I remember I just got in the twins back to New York and they had bathed them and got them on their PJs. And I called my mom and she said that they wanted to put my dad on life support. And I remember that moment. I couldn't even think straight. And somehow got

everybody dressed again and out on the sidewalk. Right now it's like 11 o'clock at night. We're out on the sidewalk. And I'm just, I can remember hearing it, but it didn't seem to be coming from me. Screaming for a taxi. It was just a blur. Trying to get home to my dad. And how do you have the wherewithal at a time like that to go open up a bottle of bleach and mop the floor, Dr. Daniel Bober? I think, Nancy, at that point, it's pure

self-preservation. I think what's going through your mind is I have to do everything I can do to not get caught. I have to do everything I can to protect myself. This has to succeed. And I have to make sure to get every detail right because I need to get out of this and I don't want to get caught. I think that's literally what's going through his mind. The evidence consisted of a shovel, an axe, some heavy-duty trash bags, some work gloves, and two five-gallon containers of gasoline and a burn pit, portable burn pit, burn barrel. It led us to believe that these were implements that were going to be used to dispose of a body, quite obviously to us,

which really tends to drive home the point to us that we believe that Andrean McDonald is no longer living. We were hearing Javier Salazar from the Bexar County Sheriff's Department talking to reporters, and he's talking about Andrean's husband, Andre. Dave Mack, what happened? When police were looking over the scene the first time, they saw in his car, in Andre, in his vehicle, they found traces of blood. At that point, they decided to tail him

because he wasn't talking. He had told them that his wife was at the hospital. So that's when they tail him. They tail him to the gun store where something inside the gun store spooked him. He left his ID. He left the gun that he was purchasing. He did grab the ammunition. That's when they stopped. They said, okay, that's it. They saw a shovel in his car while they were taking him, they were going to take him for evaluation. They saw the shovel in his car, and that's what prompted the second search warrant, a more specific search warrant for his house and car. It was at that time that they actually found he had tried to destroy two torn receipts, okay, receipts showing that he just purchased the shovel, the ax, the hatchet,

the gas cans, the gloves, the bags, all of that evidence that they have. He tried to destroy the receipts. So what they charged him with and arrested him was for tampering with evidence because he tried to ruin the receipts to prove that he had just bought that stuff that morning. You know, Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor with me, now defense attorney Daryl Cohen, I just love receipts. You know what I love even more than receipts? Video surveillance at Walmart and Target. I could just watch it all day long. I love it when the husband comes in and buys bleach and tarps and shovels and saws and axes and a portable burn pit. It's just, it makes me so happy. But Daryl Cohen, I know it's just burning you up, burning you up that they have arrested him

on destroying a receipt. And that's the only charge. And he's gnashing his teeth and twisting his tail in jail on a receipt charge. Well, Nancy, you can't legislate intelligence. Here's a guy that you mentioned earlier was not very bright. And it seems to me that he— I never said that. I never said he wasn't bright. He was smart enough to marry on Dream McDonald, who owns two assisted living facilities,

taking care of an autistic child, gets up in the gym at 5 o'clock in the morning. Uh-huh. He did something right. He can be greedy, but not necessarily bright. And here's a guy who probably did this on the spur of the moment and then went through every machination he could to cover his butt. He didn't know what to do. He was panicked. He cleaned up, but he didn't clean up carefully. Everything he did shows, in my view, that he was scared to death. He did this horrible, this heinous deed. He committed a murder, and now he's got to protect himself. But when he went to protect himself... The receipt! The receipt! That's why they have arrested him, because he destroyed a receipt. That's the only

thing they've got him on. Let's listen to the Bexar County Sheriff. Right now he's charged with tampering with evidence, again, in trying to conceal the purchase of what we believe were going to be implements to dispose of a body. Has he said anything? To us, he has not said much. When we originally came into contact with him on Friday evening, he lawyered up pretty quick. He asserted his right to counsel, which he absolutely has, but it made us a bit suspicious. Not the fact that he asserted his rights, the fact that he didn't seem to care very much at all that his wife was missing, and the fact that he just flat out refused to help us with finding her. I think one of the

most heartbreaking aspects of this case is that at the center of this is a little girl, she's six years old, who quite frankly, frankly speaking, for all intents and purposes, just lost two parents. And this little girl is autistic, mostly nonverbal. And to us, and I can't go too much into it, but to us, it's pretty evident that she saw something. She saw what happened to her mom. The reason the receipt is so important, guys, is this is the receipt for all of those items, the shovel, the axe, the gasoline, the trash bags. He's got the receipt, and he destroyed that receipt.

That is the only reason he's behind bars. I don't know how long they can really keep him behind bars on a charge like that, but I just heard something very, very important. Dave Max indicated talk show host about the autistic child. You know, police have stated that they believe that she witnessed what happened between her mother and father. Now, this is coming from one of those first witnesses who actually is a friend of the family. She was one of the people who went there to try to find Andreen the morning she didn't show up to work out or at work. They said that when they talked to the little girl, when they got her out of school,

they asked her if she knew what happened. And one of the women actually taped her using a cell phone. And the little girl who is, she's on the spectrum of autism, is fairly nonverbal, but she does speak, Nancy. According to these witnesses, in that video, she said that daddy hurt mommy and she made a choking noise like mommy was having trouble breathing. And she asked, did you get all the blood cleaned up? Those are the things that we know the police have, which is why they're saying they believe she saw everything. Oh, no. That just breaks my heart. Dr. Boba, I've worked with so

many children and a lot of times they don't explain things like most people can understand them. But once you can unlock their language and understand, look at their pictures, try to place their words with what you believe happened, it all makes perfect sense to say, mommy couldn't breathe. Did you clean? Did you get all the blood up? I think that says it all, Dr. Bober. Yes, I agree, Nancy, and that's probably even more so true with someone who is autistic and sees the world through a different lens than other kids do. You know, Vincent Hill, private eye, former cop, author of Playbook to a Murder on Amazon,

I just feel a sense of sadness because I'm looking at the photos of them together. Here's one he made. It's called Happy Wife, Happy Life. And he's smiling and he's put hearts all over the picture. Here's one of them. I think she's sitting in his lap. They're smiling. And they have it all.

They've got it all, Vincent. And I guess the social media paints a very different picture than what we know to be true. I mean, he filed, Jackie's telling me he filed for divorce in 2017 and then they got back together, Vincent. Yeah, Nancy, they did file, he did file for divorce in 2017. And I'm actually looking at a picture with them holding a key saying they bought their first home in June of 2017. But the thing about domestic violence, Nancy, and you know this better than anyone, what looks really good on the outside can be hell on the inside. We don't know what was going on inside that home. And what's really troubling Nancy is I wonder why he purchased a gun after his wife went missing after this burn pit. Is there someone else that could have been a potential target?

What was the point of the gun at this point, Nancy? That's very troubling. Or maybe a witness. You know, Darrell, when I was prosecuting, I also volunteered at the Battered Women's Center for nine and a half years. And it was amazing to me. And I can't reveal any more than what I am, but the rich, educated people that were beating their wives, including major politicians in the city of Atlanta, whose wives would call in and we all knew who it was. We all knew what was happening and would try and try and try.

But I guess my question would be, Darrell, can you prove a murder without a body? Oh, absolutely. We can prove a murder without a body. But I'll tell you why I think he purchased a gun. I think when the investigation is fully complete, you're going to find that she was either having an affair or he thought she was having an affair and he's going after the guy that he believes that she was having an affair with.

That's why I think... Darrell, I don't know another way to say this, but is it all about sex with you? We have not even a scintilla, not even a shred, not even a speck of evidence to suggest she was having an affair. How about him having an affair? Put that in your life and smoke it, Cohen. You know what? Cut his mic. Cut his mic. I don't even want to hear it.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Before I hear Daryl Cohen say one more word about the victim, goodbye quickly. This is an iHeart Podcast.