Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Thanksgiving Murder Mystery: Natalie Woods was murdered, says Natalie’s Bond Girl sister Lana Woods

Episode Date: November 23, 2017

Natalie Wood's death 36 years ago has been one of Hollywood’s biggest mysteries, but the Los Angeles Sheriff's department has restarted its investigation as new evidence came to light in recent years. It was ruled an accidental drowning soon after the actress’s body was found floating along a Catalina Island beach on November 29, 1981, but the death certificate was recently changed to “undetermined” base on the revelations in Marti Rulli’s book, Goodbye Natalie, Goodbye Splendour. Rulli, Natalie's sister Lana Wood and Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum join Nancy Grace for an in depth look at the case in this Crime Stories episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. in Hollywood. This is America's sweetheart. It was Thanksgiving weekend 1981 when Wood and her actor husband Robert Wagner went sailing on their yacht The Splendor. They were joined by actor and friend Christopher Walken. Wagner notified Captain Dennis Davern that Wood was not on board. Then I said to Robert Wagner let's turn on the searchlight to see if we can see her and he said no we don't want to do that right now. Do you believe that maybe Robert Wagner has been hiding the real truth of what happened that night all these years? I fully believe that. We have received information, which we felt was substantial, enough to make us take another look at this case. It's old information that was never looked at, that should have been looked at. She died a watery death, Hollywood royalty.

Yet, her death has never fully been investigated. Still more questions than answers. And today, 36 years since the death of the beautiful Natalie Wood. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. It was Thanksgiving 36 years ago that the beautiful star apparently drowned. But did she? Not according to her closest blood relative, her sister, Lana Wood, a former Bond girl. Joining me now, her sister, Lana Wood, the director of the Cold Case Institute, Cheryl McCollum, and renowned author, Marty Rooley, author of Goodbye Splendor. Goodbye Splendor refers to the yacht belonging to Natalie Wood, the last place Natalie slept. And now, straight to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute. Cheryl,

before we delve into Lana Wood, who is joining us today, Natalie's sister, who's quite a lot of revelations surrounding the death of her sister, Natalie Wood. First to you. Cheryl, I have never felt any degree of, you know, when we would try a case, when we were both duking it out in the courtroom, you finish a case, you get a verdict and you feel a sense of not, not really peace, but like you have achieved something. You did it. It's done next. I've never felt that way about Natalie Wood.

I've never felt, okay, now I can go on to the next case. Something's not right. Several things are not right. But yes, you just get that feeling that it's unsettled. Robert Wagner changing his story, the ship captain changing his story, the evidence that, you know, there was some type of struggle on board, there was some type of fight. The fact that they did not search for her, even though he says he did on board. There was some type of fight. The fact that they did not search for her, even though he says he did on board, there was evidence that he did not completely search that boat for her. Well, what concerns me is they did not completely search the boat for her, for the ship. And that night, according to reliable sources, Robert Wagner

insisted they not use the searchlight to try and find his wife out in the water. I mean, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Let's start at the get-go. Natalie Wood, superstar, was found drowned near her yacht during a celebration Thanksgiving. The cause of death seemed to be apparent, that she drowned. But why was she out in the middle of the ocean all by herself? Why was she, was she trying to escape something that had happened on the boat? This is a woman, by all accounts, that had a dread fear, a dread fear of water. In fact, a so-called fortune teller had foretold her death by water many years before.

And she had been afraid ever since. She would even have night terrors about drowning, nightmares about it. She would not put one little toe out in the ocean. That just, no, that was not going to happen. And I'm supposed to believe Cheryl McCollum that she and the husband now remember he was a TV star. She was the movie star and he made comments about it all the time. Like sources say that for instance, when they were going out to dinner, he gave, well, you're the star, Natalie, you pick where we're going. You know what? I'd

want to slap my husband sideways if he said something like that. I mean, I'd be thrilled to get to pick where we were going. So I'd be thrilled if I got to pick, but not like that, like some side-handed, back-handed insult. At the time, that was a big, big differentiation. I guess it still is,

whether you're a TV or a movie star. Sure. So he was all, like, hung up with're a TV or a movie star. Sure. So he was all, like, hung up with that. Lots of jealousy. So I'm supposed to believe that that night they have a fight over her co-star, Christopher Walken, who I love, who happens to be with them on the yacht. And they have a fight because Ragnar's jealous, and he admits that.

He admits they have a knockdown drag out. He admits he a bottle of wine some glasses or something like that in his anger and that she decides that night Cheryl correct me if I'm wrong because you know the facts a lot better than me she decides she's gonna crawl off the yacht in the in the dark and un unrope a huge dinghy on the side of the yacht and then crawl down in it in the dark out on the ocean on the waves and row herself to shore or turn on the motor and and nancy she decided to do this in a flannel nightgown in Woolstock. And no underwear. And no underwear. Now, I am not saying you can't go commando when you feel like, you know, fine.

But she was, you and I, Cheryl McCollum, have poured through photos of Natalie Wood. Tell me your observation. There's not one photograph where she's not flawless. Her hair, her makeup, her outfit, her jewelry. She is a movie star in every single photograph you can find. Picture perfect. So for me to believe that this woman in a flannel nightgown with her makeup off, with half of her jewelry off, with a down jacket and wool socks, is fixing to go to shore? In the middle of the night.

And it was cold, and it was dark. And again, not only did she have a fear of water, dark water was debilitating. She would not even go near her own swimming pool in Beverly Hills in the dark. She wouldn't do it. Did she know how to swim? No, ma'am. Oh, dear Lord in heaven, you're not getting me out on a dinghy in the middle of the night. What else do we know about that night, Cheryl? We know that they had a fight, and we know that Robert Wagner changed his story. The broken wine bottle specifically, he said, oh, it must have been because the boat, you know, was rocking some and it must have just fallen over.

Well, that yacht wasn't moving in that water. And then he later changed the story and even wrote in a book that he smashed it over jealousy of Christopher Walken. So again, in my world, once you change your story, I'm focused on you completely. You know, that's what I always say, Cheryl. Embellish your story. Add to your story as much as you want to. But when you change your story, you've got a problem.

Because I always learned, working with witnesses, that when I would sit down with them, which, of course, I would do before I put them on the stand. If you sit down and take time to talk to them and ask them question after question after question you learn so much more than it's in a police report and they will embellish a lot of facts and details and descriptions as best they can but when they start changing the story then there's a problem now let's talk about how, if he did, did Robert Wagner change his story about that night? What is his story about the sequence of events? His story was that she went off to bed.

He went down later. She wasn't there. He looked for her. He went to the ship's captain. They looked through the whole yacht. They could not find her and then they became panicked but he still waits and waits and waits before he calls for help he waits and waits and waits before he calls for other people to come help and search and find her he never turns the

lights on he never goes to christopher walken's room so again if i'm quote looking everywhere for her the person that i was jealous of the person that I thought she was flirting with, I would have at least gone to his stateroom. And that never happened. Right. The big blowup that night was he, Wagner, was jealous that Natalie was paying attention to Christopher Walken. And they were having fun and talking. They'd been working on a movie. As I recall, it was some kind of thriller, Brainstorm. That was the name of it. Her co-star

was Christopher Walken. So Walken comes along. Bad weather was predicted that night, November 28. There was a cold rain over Isthmus Bay. It was pummeling the faces of anybody going ashore for dinner the sea wasn't that rough however although it was a horrible night um let me understand so they are all three on the that's called the splendor was natalie's yacht they're celebrating it's thanksgiving and then the fight breaks out you know once you add alcohol into a scenario like this it's just like putting gas on a fire so rj robert wagner gets mad and starts a fight and actually says what do you want to f my wife he says that to walk and i guess that ended the party okay Okay. Walken stomps off to bed, slams the door,

and then the two of them continue to fight. Also on board, the ship's captain. Then what happens? The ship's captain is panicked, and he said, we've got to call for help. We've got to turn the lights on. And he said, no. Leave her there. He said, leave her there.

So that would make me think he knew where she was. So then finally, after four hours. How do you know she's, he, Robert Wagner said, leave her there. That's what the ship captain said that he told him. And I met with him personally. So then they decided to call for help. So Robert Wagner calls for help. And he tells over the radio, we have someone overboard in a 20-foot rubber dinghy.

We. So he includes other people in this and then says someone. He doesn't say my wife. He doesn't say Natalie. He doesn't identify her at all. So that, to me, is very important. If you remember, like, with JonBenet Ramsey, when Patsy referred to that child, trying to distance yourself at all is a clue

to me. It wasn't someone. I know it sounds like a small clue, Cheryl, but it is a clue. And that has been repeated over and over in criminal cases. When you refer to the victim or someone else, not by their name, but as, for instance, that child or

someone. Now remember, it was about 7 p.m. that evening that they had all been seated for dinner, and they ordered more and more champagne. And this was on, I believe, on shore. And the manager of the restaurant was so worried, he was afraid, they were all so intoxicated they couldn't get back to the yacht. But they did. And the drinking continued. The fight breaks out. Walken storms away, slams his door. The fight continues.

And then suddenly, how is everybody alerted that Natalie is missing? Robert Wagner went and told them they supposedly searched. And then that's when they called for help. And once help arrived they had you know helicopters and everything the dinghy was actually found a mile away from the yacht and natalie was found in the other direction almost a mile away a mile away almost was there a witness on a nearby craft that believed it was an ear witness yeah yeah she heard a lady screaming saying what help me wow okay what else do we know we know that she had the wool socks on when they recovered her and that's key

because if she would have been flailing around trying to save herself from drowning, those socks very likely would have come off. We know that she had 300 cc's of urine in her bladder, which again makes you think she may not have been conscious when she went into the water. Because normally if someone is drowning, they void. And that's very typical. In fact, it would be abnormal for her not to urinate if you drowned. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, that's one of the things that leaped off the page for me when I read the autopsy. Which means the alternative to that is that she was knocked out before she was thrown in, and therefore she didn't void in the water. Correct. Now, that does not jive with a fellow crafter hearing her yelling help.

Correct, which is one of the things law enforcement should have keyed in on at the time. So again, the sock, the urine, those things do not appear that she was actively drowning, but could have gone in the water unconscious and drowned. So that would equate for the urine and the water in her lungs. She had water in her lungs, so she did take in water. But with the urine, that would explain she went into the water possibly unconscious, but still drowned, but was not flailing around. The night manager of the restaurant where they had eaten that evening,

was that reading a book in the cabin of the boat where he lived year-round. He heard the radio, the CB radio crackling, and he heard the conversation between Wagner and Miller. He radioed a friend, the night manager, Don Whiting, on the isthmus to go to the Wagner yacht pronto and report back. And 30 minutes after that, finally, 30 minutes after he did that, light beams from the Harbor Patrol boats, private boats from Baywatch, Coast Guard helicopters began to crisscross the ocean. They shined down on the waves, swept over yachts, ships. Nothing was found in the sea.

It was 7.30 the following morning. A sheriff's helicopter headed toward Catalina. Suddenly, a crew member saw a spot of red in the ocean waves. And they go down, and it is face down in a red jacket, Natalie Wood. Her hair splaying out around her face down in the water. The dinghy was discovered on shore even further south. The key, still in the ignition, turned in the off position. The gear neutral. The oars still tied down. Correct.

What does that mean? Here's what it means to me. The down jacket is what allowed them to find her. So again, down float. So when they talk in the autopsy report that, oh, the jacket would have weighed 40 pounds, it would have just, you know, drawn her all the way down into the ocean. That jacket didn't weigh 40 pounds in the autopsy report that oh the jacket would have weighed 40 pounds it would have just you know drawn her all the way down into the ocean that jacket didn't weigh 40 pounds in the water the jacket is the reason again they found her because down float so that jacket did not kill her police were shocked yes because the boat obviously had not been used at all but here's another key thing.

They said she failed getting into the boat. They just accepted that. She failed getting in. Nobody untied the dinghy and then gets in it. That dinghy being rubber on that water with that wind, as soon as you untie it, it's going to start moving. Like a balloon in the wind, it's moving. So if she untied it first first there ain't no getting in it that boat's gone she wouldn't have done that we already know here's the contrast it was clear

she was not dressed to go on a boat ride but police believe she had to untie the dinghy why does she untie it if she didn't intend to go out in the boat. And again, you get in the boat, you get it all ready, you get the oars, you turn it on, then you untie it. Correct. That's how that works. And she knew that much. And Nancy, looking at pre and post behavior, look at post behavior. Even when this horrible thing happens, Robert Wagner doesn't even go and identify her body. Once again, he goes to the ship captain and makes him do it. Dennis DeVern identified Natalie Wood at the morgue.

You know, another thing is who told their children her mom had passed away? Nastasha learned about it on the radio at a friend's house. What? Nastasha learned about her mother's death,

breaking news over the radio while she was at a friend's house. He didn't call her. He didn't go over there. He didn't go pick her up. Now, you and I both have recently lost loved ones. My immediate concern became my children, how to explain it to them, how to help them through it. I wanted to get to them as fast as I could. Not Robert Wagner.

Did we learn anything from the search of the boat, of the yacht? Yes. Their stateroom was in disarray, the wine bottle, and again, the fact that he did not completely search it. The fact that he did not turn on searchlights. The explain to you, she took her jewelry off, she took her makeup off, she put her nightgown, and then she went to bed. So that's how she did it. So at some point, she decides she's going to put a jacket on because they're going outside. So they're either going outside to finish arguing, which the captain can hear, or he makes her put the jacket on and says, come with me. We don't, you know, we don't know for sure. Obviously we weren't there, but at some point she stops her nightly routine and puts on a jacket and goes outside with Robert

Wagner. So Robert Wagner is the last person to see her. He was arguing with her at the time. The ship's captain that, you know, Dennis DeVern will tell you he saw her, like, shove her away. Shove her away or shove her toward the water. We also know that, according to the autopsy, a widespread bruise, diffuse. It was about four inches by one inch spread over her right arm above the wrist. On the left wrist was a superficial fresh bruise about a half an inch in diameter. There were small superficial skin bruises scattered over her right and left lower legs. Fresh. The knee area on the left, recent bruising, the right ankle, recent bruise, and superficial bruises on the posterior, the back of both lower legs, covered, covering her legs were covered in

bruises. A vertical upwards brush type abrasion was on her cheek, her left cheek, as I recall. That was her only head wound. I think that's a hell of a fall. If you can manage to hit the front of your legs and the back of your legs and both the wrist and your face. I mean, it reminds me of the back of your legs. Well put.

That's not a fall. You don't fall and get bruised front and back. Not at all. It looks to me like she might have had some type of physical fight and then hit maybe the swim step going in or maybe the swim step and part of the dinghy. Like she fell in between. But again, that doesn't appear completely accidental. Some of those bruises were fresh, so possibly before she hit the water. What's happening right now in the investigation? Why has there never been an arrest? Well, right now, detectives

are actively working the case. They have re-interviewed Christopher Walken. They have re-interviewed some other principal people, and the death certificate has been changed from accidental drowning to undetermined. So that's very significant to me that they would make that move. What an important time of the year for me and for so many when we stop still and thank God for our blessings. It's Thanksgiving. And I want to thank our sponsor, our partner today, making our program possible. And it is Link AKC. Christmas is right around the corner with all the other holidays. Don't

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prices increased from $6,000 to $385,000 in 90 years, but it's still the same amount of gold today. That's called preserving your buying power. Dial pound 250 and say the keyword grace. That's pound 250, keyword grace. Dial pound 250 and say grace. Our specialists are standing by. Joining me right now is a very special guest. The closest blood relative to Natalie Wood, Hollywood star. Lana Wood, her sister. Successful and well-known actress in her own right.

Lana, thank you so much for being with us. And I've got to tell you something, Lana. I'm not one to go and get a photo or go and pose myself on celebrities when I see them, but when I saw you at CrimeCon, I just couldn't stop myself. I just wanted to hug you and meet you and talk to you, and I'm so grateful for you being with us today. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Were you younger than Natalie? Or are you older than her? I was the baby. We had eight years difference.

I thought you were the baby. Were you a Bond girl? Yes. Ah, yes, yes. Ooh. Va, va, va, voom. I always tell people if I had known that the Bond role would have followed me for the rest of my life, I would have done a better job. You did a great job. You know, when I heard that Natalie's case became a cold case, at first I was a cold case. I was disheartened. But the case is heating up again. And when I

spoke to you about your recollections of the night Natalie died and what unfolded over the next 72 hours and since it It is amazing. I want to take you back, and I know everybody does this, but I want our listeners to hear it from Lana Wood, Natalie's sister. What possessed Natalie to go out on that dark water at Thanksgiving? Why would she go out there? Go in the first place? Yeah.

Natalie, it was their Thanksgiving plan for quite a while. She had been filming. She wanted Christopher and RJ to get to know each other. It was a plan, and she refused to change it around, even when her daughter Natasha was begging her not to go. The night before was rainy and nasty, and nobody wanted to go out on the boat, and everyone thought that it was silly for them to be going. But it was just, you know, that was the plan, and she was just definite about it nope those are the plans and we're not going to change them and that that's the end of it now how old were her children at the time oh dear um approximate uh courtney was about uh five she was about the

same age because um my daughter ev, is the same age as Courtney. They're at six months difference in age. And Natasha at the time was about 12. Oh, my stars. Lana, I never thought it through about how young they were. Yeah, yeah. It makes it even worse. I mean, losing a parent at any time, I suppose, is horrible. But they were so young. The thing that saddened me so much not that long ago is Courtney was asked for a memory in an interview, and she said, I don't remember my mom.

I never knew her. And that broke my heart. That broke my heart. You know, you can't. none of this can be undone it just can't all the ripple effects of that one night where were you the night they went out on the splendor where were you um i was home now that time, you were getting along with Wagner, correct? Yeah, I didn't. Absolutely.

I just accepted him as part of the family. Now, they had been married before. Yes. Divorced. Yes. She married another guy. Married again. And then, after that divorce, remarried her first husband, Robert Wagner. Right.

What did you think about the remarriage? Quite honestly, I wasn't happy about it. Then I made myself very clear about my feelings. I do have a habit of voicing my opinion on my feelings. And I took Natalie's side the night she announced it to my mom and dad and me. And I said, what on earth are you doing? Because I remember the breakup of her marriage. I remember her coming into the family home late at night.

I was in bed. I remember her coming with her hand bleeding. Why was her hand bleeding? She broke a wine glass that she was holding and sliced her hand. During an argument with Wagner? Yes, yes. And I remember all that, you know, and I remember everything after that. Did he know how you felt?

I don't really know. This is a terrible admission to make. I don't think I spent much time talking to him when I was with Natalie I was there for Natalie I didn't go to visit we were normally on our way out there we were going shopping or we were going to do a girl's lunch or we were going to we were going to go to a movie we were going to do something do you know what I mean yeah or I was there with something specific and it would be the two of us he was jealous of her I know he was jealous the night of Christopher Walken but I mean because of her huge huge box office success and he was a tv star I

I think he would have to be some sort of saint not to feel how difficult that would be because I think it's part of the male ego. Yes, I'm making a blanket statement. To be a man, the man likes to be in charge, be the breadwinner, be the decision maker. It's a guy thing. You've got to agree with me on that. That's how they feel. Let me ask you a question. This is completely on a different topic. Hold on. Now, at the time Natalie passed away, was Wagner already starring with Stephanie Powers? Yeah, he was already doing Heart to Heart, yes.

So he was already starring with Stephanie Powers, and that was his, was that his biggest show? That was a big show. It was a very successful show. Absolutely. Very popular, very successful show. So when did it start sinking into you that everything did not, gee hoss, everything did not exactly line up correctly? I don't even recall brushing my teeth. I don't know when.

I know that I was on automatic pilots. There were arguing. There was arguing going on. My mom passed out from high blood pressure. Guy McElwain, who was a friend of Natalie's and a former boyfriend of mine, suddenly arrived at the house. Our half-sister came. My mom was hysterical. I remember my mom turning around in my living room and saying the wrong one died while looking at me. And I said, don't even go there. Why have you said that Robert Wagner has not cooperated with police? Why do I say it?

Because he's never spoken to them. I don't know why he keeps saying he did. It boggles my mind. That day he didn't speak to them? When it happened, whoever whoever arrived it was somebody from the coroner's office and there was there were those there was that detective rasher um they arrived on the boat they did not question anybody they took an accounting from everybody when did you see your last one that's happened i'm terribly sorry if you lost mr wagner um he was then he and christopher were flown back to the mainland and it was

dennis devern who had to identify natalie's body which horrified me um i mean i can't i can't it's i know it's wrong for me to want someone to react how i would. That's just flat out wrong. But it boggles my mind that you wouldn't, as a husband, as a lover, as a friend, as a dog owner, that you wouldn't rush to the side of someone that's passed away and want to hold them and want to be there. I don't understand it. So since that time, he has not spoken to police? No. The only time he has spoken to police was that the day he has never spoken to them. Let me ask you this, Lana. Is it true that detectives told you they were very close to

making an arrest in the case? Absolutely. They came to my home and said that they had everything they needed for an arrest and that the district attorney would not move forward. And I said, I don't understand. And he said, please get that word out because they feel that there's something going on. And I said, fine, if somebody asks me, I will tell them. So they came to your house and said they have enough for an arrest, but the DA is sitting on it. Yes. Did you believe that they were referring to Robert Wagner? Did they tell you it was Robert Wagner?

Oh, of course, yes, yes. They told you it was Robert Wagner? That's what they said. Now, Robert Wagner was starring with Stephanie Powers on Heart to Heart, and he then later married Jill St. John in 1990, correct? Yes. Did she, had she been a friend of Natalie's? No.

I'd never even seen her at the house. No, not friends at all. Actually, I saw very little of Stephanie, but I saw more of Stephanie than I never saw Jill. So after all the years, he's never sat down with you and talked to you about what happened that night? Nancy, he didn't ever call me and tell me that Natalie had drowned or that anything had happened. He never called Natasha, Natalie's daughter by Richard Gregson. She was spending the night at a friend's house. She heard it on the on the news. Oh, my stars.

What was Natasha's take on all of this? Where does Natasha stand? I wouldn't know. I'm not I'm not allowed to speak to anyone or they will not take phone calls or anything from me. I'm somehow, I don't know. If you ever find out the answer, let me know. What did you find odd about that night, other than the fact that Natalie Wood, who was always, no matter when you saw her, she was dressed to the T for her fans and she was out in a flannel gown with knee socks and no underwear.

Did they do a rape kit on Natalie? Do you know? I was told by Detectives Hernandez and Lowe that there was no rape kit. There were no fingernail clippings, and I said, wow, that's really odd because that's standard procedure. I was then told later that there was a rape kit and there were fingernail clippings and somehow they're not accessible. Nobody knows anything about it. So who do you believe? I don't know. I really don't. Who told you that there was a rape kit and nail? An attorney contacted me personally not terribly long ago who has been speaking to various people that he knows. He told me. What else was odd to you that you learned about the night Natalie drowned?

Well, many things. First of all, Natalie would never, never in a million years for any reason of any type leave her boat not dressed, not dressed with wool socks on. Natalie always had cold feet and hands on the boat. It was intensified. She used to keep wool socks to sleep to go to sleep. She would have never gotten into the dinghy for any reason. She would never have gone out to tie it up. That's why they had a captain on board. He did all that. If somebody doesn't suddenly change their personality, their behaviors in a day. That's not Natalie. She would not have done that. There is no earthly way. It's ludicrous to think otherwise.

Do you recall at the wake that Robert Wagner was, you said, I've got to talk to you. I've got to know what happened. And according to one story I heard, he turned around, looked at you and said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. He did. I went upstairs. RJ, I didn't see him. And I said, where's RJ? And somebody said upstairs. So I went upstairs into their bedroom and he was sitting on the edge of the bed. And I said, RJ, what the hell happened? What happened? And he said, it was an accident. Please believe me, I'm sorry. And then somebody grabbed me by the arm, I don't know who, and said, leave him alone, just leave him alone. And so I left. I went back downstairs. What has Walken ever said about this, Christopher Walken?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. He's never said a word. I understand he passed a polygraph. Christopher Walken? Yeah. Ah, good. I don't think he had anything to do with anything. I don't think he did either. But I find it interesting that he would go in and take a polygraph and Robert Wagner wouldn't. Because people, why is that interesting? If you have something to hide, you do so.

If you have nothing to hide, when I go through the security checks at the airport, we've got to pat you down. Go for it. Is there anything I can do to help to make this easier? Is there anything I can say? Is there anything I can do? That's what an innocent person does. In all the years that Natalie has been gone,

do you ever feel that she has tried to contact you or you've heard from her? I don't know. I've had strange dreams. I had one strange occurrence that I don't know. I would love to believe that she has, but I don't know. It would be great if she had. I know she wouldn't be happy. What do you make of the fact that they have essentially reopened the case? I don't buy any of the circumstances with which she passed away. I buy none. Dennis DeVern used to call me late at night, drunk, and this was maybe 10 years after Natalie passed, maybe not quite that long, maybe four years, five years, and say, you know, that he knows what happened and he was there and he did this and he did that. And I used to say, you know, that he knows what happened and he was there and he, he did this and he did that. And I used to say, Dennis, go, go to the authorities.

And he'd say, I can't because he felt guilty too. And he'd say, I can't tell you everything because you'll, you know, you'll hate everybody. And I said, just tell me. And he, he would tell me enough and then he would stop and he wouldn't tell me everything ever. But he said that there was a bad fight. R.J. has changed his story twice, and R.J. denied that to my face, which then I said, you changed your story.

He goes, oh, I never changed my story. Yes, he did. He said in one book that there was no wine bottle. He didn't break a wine bottle. There was no argument. Everything was fine. And suddenly he writes another book, and in there he says he got upset and jealous and accused Christopher Walken of cheating and, you know, Natalie cheating and this and that and broke a wine bottle. That sounds to me like a difference in a story. And I'm not, I can't tell you. It's like, I just, I just find this all bizarre and horrendous. Again, I want to thank our partner today making our program possible,

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investigating the mysterious death surrounding the apparent drowning of Hollywood star Natalie Wood. It's Marty Rooley, the author of Goodbye Natalie, Goodbye Splendor. Marty, thank you so much for being with us with the most recent turn of events in the Natalie Wood death investigation. I'm really anxious to hear what you've got to say, Marty. The actual closed case in 1981 that was closed within days of Natalie's suspicious death was reopened in 2011, November 2011. And what I make of it is that I worked many years on trying to get that to happen, and finally it did happen. And the beautiful thing that came from it is that two new detectives were assigned to the case

who left no stone unturned, and they have ended up believing what I spent many years trying to get them to believe. And they interviewed hundreds of people, not just Dennis DeVern, who is the main eye and ear witness of Natalie's death, the night that she was actually in the ocean and Dennis saw everything that happened that led to her death. These detectives now believe this homicide case should remain open because it is solvable. They have a suspect. They do not come out and say they have a suspect. It's been quiet, but it is not over. The Natalie Wood case is still an open and active case. Marnie, after all of your energy, all of your time that you poured into the Natalie Wood death investigation, what do you believe is the most powerful evidence that suggests Natalie did not die by accident? It's more than just the argument and that more than one witness overheard on Saturday night. Everything leading to Natalie's death started months before this fateful cruise that Thanksgiving weekend of 1981.

Robert Wagner traveled months ahead to visit Natalie in North Carolina where she was filming with Christopher Walken on Brainstorm. He told Dennis Saverne he was going there to catch her cheating. He knew she was cheating. There's no evidence of that. But in his mind, that's what he thought he would go there and find. He came back. He seemed satisfied. He did not catch Natalie doing anything wrong.

But his whole entire personality, demeanor changed at that time. He started disappearing at night. Dennis saw them on a daily basis, even in everyday life. And Robert Wagner wasn't coming to the boat. He wasn't available at night. He was making comments to Dennis that were frightening. Dennis didn't know what was going on. He figured when Natalie was done,

her location filming, everything would get back to normal. They'd start to come out on the boat. And that's what happened. Natalie finished her filming. It was Thanksgiving weekend and she wanted to take her co-star of her new movie on the boat for a cruise. It's what that family did.

Robert Wagner had his people on board, the people he worked with. Natalie would have her co-star, Sean Connery. Anyone she worked with, George Siegel, they would come on board. So Natalie invited Christopher Walken. There's a lot of speculation. Oh, she was cheating. It's like, who would have their co-star on board the boat with their husband and make him jealous. This is what that family did. That's not what happened. So the Friday night of the cruise, the Friday night is the night people, the law, everyone should be focusing on. Friday night is when the arguing started. They were anchored in Avalon, where there's a lot of things to do on the island. Robert Wagner, late at night, did not want to stay in Avalon.

He wanted to move to the remote, secluded part of the island, where there's only one restaurant that closes about 10-30. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's Avalon? Avalon is the city on Catalina Island where there's activities, restaurants, curio shops. They were in a nice area for entertaining. Natalie just wanted to entertain her co-star. Robert Wagner is who wanted to go to the other end of the island where it's very remote and quiet. Why? On Friday night when it's

raining and cold, and that's the night the water was choppy, not the night Natalie died the next night. Natalie refused. Robert Wagner went crazy with anger, pulling anchor, saying he's moving the boat. Natalie was afraid Friday night. And I think that's when the seed that was already growing in Robert Wagner grew to proportions that are sinister, that he wanted that quiet part of the island for reasons that have to do with what happened to Natalie the next night. So they stayed. Natalie left the island, left the boat, I'm sorry, with Dennis DeVern, and they went to Avalon, and Dennis and Natalie stayed in a hotel room together. Now, Natalie, she didn't like being alone. She was afraid that night, probably more so of maybe her husband showing up than of strangers.

Dennis stayed in the same room with Natalie, and she vented until 4 in the morning. They talked, and she was very upset with Robert Wagner why he was doing this to her. She was going to catch a seaplane in the morning, and how sad that there were no planes available, there wasn't a way off the island, she decided to go back to the boat. But they were going to go back to the mainland, which Dennis begged Robert Wagner to do. But Wagner was so apologetic, he was sweet again, he apologized to Natalie, let's still go to the other end of the island is what he wanted to do. They went to Two Harbors at the Isthmus, and that's where they moored.

And the only place there is a restaurant. Robert Wagner is who told Natalie, go ahead to the island with Christopher and have yourself some drinks, and Dennis and I will join you later. And Natalie and Christopher took a taxi, a shore taxi, to the restaurant. Robert Wagner and Dennis joined them for dinner, for cocktails and dinner. But before that, Dennis still pleaded with R.J. to leave and go home to the mainland. And R.J. said to Dennis, no, Natalie will get what she came for and a lot more. And the way that Robert Wagner said that was so sinister that Dennis was so afraid something was going to happen that he pleaded again to leave for the mainland.

But they went to dinner, and that's when the trouble started. And then they got back to the boat. Interesting. The arguing started, and that's when the trouble started and then they got back to the boat argument arguing started and that's it though that you say robert wagner even though he was extremely jealous and he admits that of christopher walken sends natalie and walken to go out drinking alone before he and dennis get there and they were all so inebriated. The restaurant owner was worried about them even getting back to the Splendor that night.

Yes, that gave Wagner every reason to say she was out drinking with her co-star. He is the one who pleaded with them. You know, it was his way of apologizing. You two go have fun. I'm so sorry for last night. He was not sorry. A lot of people think that when Natalie went missing, Robert Wagner didn't know what to do. That's why he waited to call for help.

I don't think he was worrying about planning what he would do. I think he was following a plan. You don't wait two and a half hours when your wife is missing to call a restaurant for help, and then another two hours on top of that to allow. He had to give permission for the harbor master to call for help with the Coast Guard. And now medical evidence, since the new case has been reopened, medical evidence shows that Natalie was never conscious in the water. So there probably isn't much the Coast Guard could have done except maybe recover her body earlier than the morning time.

But there are so many details in this case that, of course, do not reach the public yet. The media wants statements from the law. The law is hands-off until they can make an actual arrest or form a grand jury because of the celebrity involved. Natalie's case is one of the strongest circumstantial cases ever. Any regular Joe would already be in prison with far less evidence involved. And the case is, again, left in the hands of a few people who still care. I mean, thank goodness Lana Wood, Natalie's sister, is a blood relative who gave the

nod to the Cold Case Institute now involved in this. And every single thing that they are investigating with experts and the forensic test that I conducted in my own private investigation. The cold case institution is now realizing everything that I've been saying for 30 years. And if, you know, a lot of people question Dennis DeVern, there's a lot of backstory there, too. But it's an open case, and I think that we will get to it. What's taking so long? Celebrity. You know, the law is so afraid that a jury will not put Jonathan Hart behind bars, Beretta, Dr. Huxtable. It just happens. When celebrity is involved and the celebrity has a high-profile attorney attached, there's always the threat of being sued.

You have to be careful how you word things. But now Karina, in charge of this case at the LASD, he has come out in articles and said they do have a person of interest. They are focused on one person here. But, you know, the greater media just doesn't pick up on these things. They're not following a case where information isn't coming directly from the authorities. And I understand that. And Robert Wagner, he's aging now.

And the one thing that I would like to guarantee people is that even if this case does not make it to a courtroom, the truth will make it to be attached to Natalie's legacy, because she does deserve that. I mean, my mantra is Natalie Wood didn't get drunk and fall off of a boat. Natalie is a victim, a beaten wife who was thrown into the ocean and left to die. And not because she did anything wrong, but just because her husband is a sociopath. And I'm not afraid to say it. I have the backup information to prove it. Of course, he denies any involvement in Natalie Wood's drowning death. Nancy, it took decades for people to listen to us. And now it's still a full-blown homicide investigation.

We are on the case, part of the investigation into the death of Natalie Wood. So many people still unsettled by the perceived lack of a resolution and joining us in our search for justice. I know this. I know it's Thanksgiving. And I know I am so blessed. We wish you all the most wonderful Thanksgiving, and I hope you have time, no matter who you are or where you are, to pause and count your blessings. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart podcast