Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - THE CASE FOR RESURRECTION: JOHN 3:16, TRUE STORY

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The case for the resurrection. Bombshell. John 316. True story. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Starting point is 00:00:21 Thank you for being with us. Why is it that we want proof? After I graduated from law school and began prosecuting felony cases, my world boiled down to black and white. Everything in my world, simply put, isn't probative. What does it prove? If I can't prove it, then it's not real. You think I would put a psychic in front of a jury even if I believed what he or she said? No, I would not. Nobody

Starting point is 00:00:54 believes that. It would ruin the state's case. Just like putting up a witness is going to be destroyed on cross-examination. Is it worth it? Or do you lose all credibility? In this business, the media, there is one stink bomb. If you mention this, you lose all credibility. And Christ or resurrection. Joining me, an all-star panel to discuss the case for the resurrection. Straight out to a guy I feel I know because I have listened to him read his books. His most recent book is The Supernatural. Seeing the Supernatural. But what really reached me was Lee Strobel's book, The Case for Christ. Today, The Resurrection,

Starting point is 00:01:59 John 3.16. According to many of us, it's a true story. Straight out to Lee Strobel joining us. Now catch this. Former legal editor of the Chicago Tribune also covered the courthouse beat, crime and justice, where everything boiled down to, can you prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? Former atheist, which we'll get into, New York Times bestselling author of Seeing the Supernatural, that's his newest, The Evidence of Christ. 40 plus books. Sorry, Strobel, I don't have time to go through

Starting point is 00:02:36 all that. My favorite so far, The Case for Christ. Now, Lee, thank you for being with us. Also with us, an all-star panel that I'm getting to, but first to Lee Strobel. It's our Super Bowl. It's Easter. I argue the single most important time in the Christian year. We hear a lot more about Christmas. I get it. But Super Bowl, Easter, no question. Without Easter, nobody would care about Christmas. Explain to me how you turned from a dyed-in-the-wool atheist to a believer. Well, thanks, Nancy.

Starting point is 00:03:22 I was an atheist. My background's in journalism and law. So just like you, I loved your introduction because, man, I feel the same way. I need evidence. I need data. I need historical, trustworthy material before I make a decision. And I just thought your concept of an all-loving, all-knowing God was absurd. It wasn't worth my time to even check out. And I married a woman who was an agnostic. She ended up becoming a Christian. And I thought, how do I rescue her from this cult that she's gotten involved in? Let me see Strobel. And by the way, who's ever running that chain of photos or depictions of Christ?

Starting point is 00:03:57 Apparently, that's not at all what he looked like. He wasn't white as a lily with blue eyes, most likely just guessing. But that said, let me see Strobel. Lee Strobel, why was the idea? I mean, you believe in the Hubble telescope, don't you? Right? Oh, sure, of course. Okay.

Starting point is 00:04:20 I tell you, Nancy. You're not one of those people that we think it's all a scam that we really didn't land on the moon. You're not that person, are you? No, of course not. No. Then why can you people, you said you didn't believe or couldn't consider an all-knowing or all-loving God. So if you believe in the Hubble telescope and you believe that we can look into galaxies millions of light years away, what's so hard to believe? I don't understand. Well, as you'll find out as you interview Aries,

Starting point is 00:04:51 you'll find out they have a lot of reasons for not believing and tend to, as the book of Romans said, to suppress the evidence. And so you find ways to explain all of the evidence, just as the book of Romans says, that we tend to suppress the evidence because we want to be God. We want to make our own decisions. We don't want to be given commandments to live by. You know, you mentioned Romans, and I'll have to ask you and Father Pusena about the problem with the Old Testament. Talk about an angry father. I mean, that's bad. That's really bad in the Old Testament. It's very hard for many people to reconcile the God in the Old Testament with the God in the New Testament. I have my own ways to reconcile it.

Starting point is 00:05:37 But you mentioned Romans. And, of course, Romans was written by Paul, a.k.a. Elias Saul, the Christian killer, who, like you, became a believer. That happens to have my favorite Bible verse of all times in Romans. That's why I have a particular love for Romans. But that said, so you're dying the will, atheist. You're covering the crime beat, nothing but murder, rape, child molestation, mayhem all day long, and you like it. So how did you end up becoming a Christian, much less a Christian author, bestselling author, New York Times bestselling author? My wife was agnostic. She met a neighbor who was a Christian, shared Jesus with her, went to church with her. And then she came and gave me

Starting point is 00:06:28 the worst news an atheist husband could get. She said, I decided to become a Christian. And I thought divorce would be the answer. But then I thought maybe I could rescue her from this cult that she got involved in. So I decided to take my legal training and my journalism training and systematically investigate, is there any credibility to the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Because I figured, even as an atheist, that is the foundation, that is the linchpin of the Christian faith. Because Jesus clearly made transcendent and messianic and divine claims about himself. And so what? I could do that. You could do that. Anybody could do that. But if Jesus claimed to be God, died, and then three days later returned from the dead, that's pretty good evidence he's telling

Starting point is 00:07:08 the truth. And so I spent two years of my life using my journalism and legal training to investigate the data of history to try to come to an informed verdict on whether or not Jesus backed up his claim to being the Son of God by returning from the dead on the third day. And I became convinced, based on history, based on documents, based on eyewitness accounts and so forth, that Jesus is who he claimed to be. And that's when I abandoned my atheism and received Jesus as my forgiver and leader. Joining me in addition to bestselling author Lee Strobel, Father Cedric Pizegna. Father Cedric Ministries airs on TBN on Sundays at 7 a.m. on EWTN, Sundays at 9 30 a.m. He's the author of Rise, Living the Risen Life, and Death, the Final Surrender.

Starting point is 00:08:05 There are 25 books to go through. Father, thank you for being with us. You know, Lee Strobel just said so many interesting things, but one thing he said was that Christ declared himself the Son of God. Now, you know what I noticed? And of course, I'm just a lay person compared to all of you Christian intellectuals, but I noticed that very often when Christ would perform a miracle, which was documented in many written sources at the time by non-Christians, they would often refer to Christ

Starting point is 00:08:41 as basically an insurrectionist that could perform magic, healing people through magic. They didn't know what to make of it. But Father, I noticed from my point of view in the Gospels whenever he would perform a miracle, he would say, don't tell anybody. And when he would be asked, who are you? Even by Pontius Pilate, he would not come out and say, I am the son of God. It was there at the very end when the disciples still weren't getting it that he did claim to be the son of God. But I found him to be, I find him to be very humble.

Starting point is 00:09:25 I mean, in everything he did, it's a lesson on how we are to live. I don't find him tooting his own horn that often. Yeah, he wasn't that way. He taught with parables and he taught with a lot of wisdom. But he's the only person I've ever heard of, both written and spoken, that ever said, I am the resurrection and the life. These are unprecedented claims. And we're talking about the proof of the resurrection, Nancy, and I thank you for having me on. I'm a Catholic priest. And for 2000 years, the church has been present proclaiming this, that not only is there a resurrection of Jesus, but we are all going to be resurrected in the last day and stand before God. And when you

Starting point is 00:10:12 talk about proof of the resurrection, let me say this. I liken it to a boat. If there's a boat going through a harbor, it creates a wake. In the same way, the resurrection has created a wake. For example, the Bible, the New Testament has come forth because of that. The apostles have died for this. They've been martyred. People don't die for a life.

Starting point is 00:10:35 I want to say, Father Bezania, Father, when, you know, many people, and I can't wait to hear the rest of the panel talk about this, like myself, sometimes wonder, is this real? But wondering is not a sin. It's not the end of you as a Christian.

Starting point is 00:10:57 And I would like to refer to Thomas, the doubter, when he said, I don't believe the resurrection happened. That's BS. Excuse me, Father. Christ did not hate him. He didn't reject him. He wooed Thomas and showed him his scars. He felt where the sword had gone in Christ's side.

Starting point is 00:11:23 And Thomas no longer doubted. Something you just said, that the disciples were willing to die, to die horrible deaths. When Peter the rock was murdered, he refused to be crucified. He said, that was the way Christ was killed. I'm not worthy of that and was crucified upside down.

Starting point is 00:11:48 These people, when I feel weak, I think of them and all the early Christians that were murdered for their beliefs. They would rather die than recant Christ. And that is very persuasive to me, speaking about proof. Yeah, let me share this very quickly, because you have other panelists here. But I had a young man come up to me. He was a teenager. And he said, Father Cedric, it's Easter. How do we know that Jesus was risen? And that's the question before us right now. And what I told him was, I know he's risen because he lives in me. He's changed my life. I have actually had two near-death experiences where I encountered the risen Christ. And this so revolutionized my life that I became a Catholic priest with a vow of poverty, chastity, and obedience.

Starting point is 00:12:39 And Jesus said, by your fruit, you will know them. So the bottom line is, is that he pours out his Holy Spirit upon people, and that's the proof of the resurrection, that you can encounter Christ and that your doubts can be turned into faith. But more than anything, Jesus wants faith from us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem was a threat to the religious leaders of the day as their power was derived from rules and traditions. Jesus was also seen as a political threat by religious leaders as well as Roman authority, fearing the populace would unite behind Jesus, leading to unrest. Some of Jesus' early supporters expect him to be a political or military leader and are disappointed to find out otherwise.

Starting point is 00:13:28 In the crowds were instigators sowing seeds of false information about Jesus and outright lies, causing the people to question him, leading to his arrest. Gang mentality. Okay, one thing I don't understand is how a single guy from all places, Bethlehem, Nazareth, was a political threat. He owned one pair of sandals that somebody probably the hierarchy, not just the local religious leaders, but beyond to the Roman Empire? Joining me, an all-star panel as we head into our Super Bowl Easter. To Lee Strobel joining us, how many times have I wanted to speak to you? Along with an

Starting point is 00:14:28 all-star panel, each a bright light in this world. Lee is the author of a brand new book, Seeing the Supernatural, but also The Case for Christ, which I have listened to many times, Lee, on tape. So, Lee, can we talk about proof? Yes. And everything that Father Pazana has said, Michael Lacona has said is true. Yeah. But I can't go to a jury and say, OK, this guy said he saw a vision of a man that died 2,000 years ago. And that's my proof. Do I believe it?

Starting point is 00:15:15 Yes, I believe it happened. Can I offer it as proof? Probably not. Now, give me some proof, Lee. Sure. The things I heard you talk about in your book. Can we just start with eyewitnesses? Sure.

Starting point is 00:15:31 Most of the facts that we accept as being true about the ancient world, when you dig down into them, are based on one source or two sources of information. We have no fewer than nine ancient early sources confirming and corroborating their conviction that they encountered the risen Christ. First, we have a report of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, including named eyewitnesses and groups of eyewitnesses, far too quick to be a legend that developed over the centuries that came later. Second, we have Paul's testimony. He had been Saul of Tarsus. He had an encounter with the risen Christ, and then he became the apostle Paul, but then he got to know some of the apostles, including Peter, James, and John. And Paul says himself, he says, regarding the resurrection, whether it is I or they, this is what we preach. In other words, I was an eyewitness, and they're eyewitnesses too.

Starting point is 00:16:20 Third, we have Peter himself in the book of Acts, which even skeptical scholars will accept as a book about the spread of early Christianity. And Peter gets up before a group and he says, God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we're all witnesses. And 3,000 people that day said, Peter, we know you're telling the truth. And the church was born. The next four sources are the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are nine appearances of the risen Jesus in those Gospels. And we have every reason to believe that those Gospels are reliable.

Starting point is 00:16:50 They are early enough. They are rooted into the right streams that go back to Jesus and the original people. There's proximity. There's verification of distinct points with archaeology and other documents. There's the inner logic. Okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. See, you're so smart. You and everybody else on this panel, other than me, are just, you know, you're reeling it off. You got me drinking from the fire hydrant, Strobar,

Starting point is 00:17:17 because you can't take all that in. But you said eyewitnesses, and you were referring to the disciples, multiple accounts. I'm going to circle back to that. But what about, what about, I want to get to that, the writings outside the Bible. But the hundreds of people that reportedly saw him during the 40 days he walked the earth post-crucifixion. What about them? Yeah, they're mentioned in that creed that I mentioned, that early report of the resurrection. It mentions the specific names of eyewitnesses to whom he appeared, including Peter, including James, the half-brother

Starting point is 00:18:00 of Jesus, who was not a follower of Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. He was radically converted and became ultimately martyred for his faith as a leader of the Church of Jerusalem because he encountered the risen Jesus. And it talks about groups of people, including 500 people at once who encountered the resurrected Jesus. And Paul said to the church in Corinth, he said, I'm paraphrasing, he basically said, look, you don't believe me? A lot of these 500 witnesses are still around. Go talk to them.

Starting point is 00:18:29 They'll tell you the truth. So and then we have people who actually sat under the teachings of the eyewitnesses themselves, and they tell us what the eyewitnesses said. So, for instance, we have Clement, who we believe was ordained by Peter himself. And Clement wrote a letter right there in the first century in which he said the disciples had, quote, complete certainty caused by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. And then we have Polycarp, who we believe was appointed the bishop of the Church of Smyrna by John himself. And he wrote a letter to the Philippian church, and he said, he mentioned the resurrection no fewer than five times. And he said, I'll quote him, he said,

Starting point is 00:19:10 about Paul and the other apostles, he said, for they did not love the present age, but him who died for their benefit and for our sake was raised by God. So we have nine ancient sources going back extremely early, confirming and corroborating that the disciples were convinced that Jesus was resurrected and appeared to them. And I'd like to point out, not just the disciples. Yes, that's right. 500 people. 500 members of, yes, members of the then current religious regime were converted and they were very Antichrist or converted. Romans who had their lives to lose if they converted did convert because they saw him. They would rather go live in caves.

Starting point is 00:20:06 What if somebody said, okay, you need to pack up all your stuff and go live in a cave with your children. They did that rather than recant their beliefs. Joining me now, in addition to Lee Strobel, author of The Case for Christ,

Starting point is 00:20:23 Father Cedric Pizania, Michael Lacona, Billy Hallowell is joining us, host at CBN, Christian Broadcasting Network, has a new documentary out, Investigating the Supernatural Miracles, has two podcasts, multiple books at BillyHallowell.com.

Starting point is 00:20:42 Billy, one thing that is very convincing to me is that many people like Strobel did not believe. They didn't believe. In fact, they had a great interest, personal interest in not believing. They would lose their job. They would lose their home.

Starting point is 00:21:03 They could be put to death if they chose to believe. Yet after seeing Christ following the resurrection, walking the earth for 40 days, they chose to give it all up and become believers. Not just the disciples, not just them, his close followers, but people that didn't even know him before. I find that very probative. Well, it is. And you think about the fact that you were saying before, you know, some people, you know, why was Jesus such a threat to so many people? And he's performing miracles and he's walking around and he's doing these things that are shocking people and making them wonder, who is he really? And I would say, I think this is important to talk about. We're talking about the history in

Starting point is 00:21:47 the past. We're talking about what the Bible says and whether it's true, whether he resurrected. Let's look at the world today. You asked that question about people living in caves. Around the world today, Christian persecution is the worst that it has ever been in history. There are millions of people who are very much worse off than living in caves. They're being slaughtered and murdered and killed because they will not recant the faith. So that same proof that we're talking about actually back then with Paul and so many others, we're watching people live that out actively in those changed lives right now as we speak in countries around the world. And I'll tell you the thing that- Like where? I want to hear about current Christian persecution.

Starting point is 00:22:27 Absolutely. The World Watch List, every year they rank the worst countries. North Korea is typically number one. Nigeria right now, and I would encourage people to look this up. We cover this at CBN frequently. What is happening in Nigeria is horrific. The slaughter, the murder, the killing, the systematic, I mean, pastors and leaders and normal Christians, people who will not recant their faith. Not only are they second class citizens in many of these countries, but they are put in labor camps and they are slaughtered. And this is very actively happening around the world. Here in America, we don't think about these things because generally speaking, we have very good First Amendment religious liberty.

Starting point is 00:23:09 Other countries, this does not exist. But my point is that proof that we're talking about, we see it being lived out actively right now in our world today. And that's easy to look past, but I think it's important to discuss. Again, we are heading into the most sacred time of the year for Christians around the world, and that is Easter. It's painful to hear, for me, it's painful to hear the way Christ was treated. Jesus was arrested on charges of sedition because the Romans saw him as a serious threat to their authority. Jewish leaders felt the same way. Jesus's teachings were a threat to their authority. The combination of leadership from the political and religious parts of society, coupled with a groundswell of false information, turned the crowds against Jesus. It took only one week from the city of Jerusalem to go from

Starting point is 00:23:55 praise him to crucify him. Jesus was arrested late on Thursday night after the Passover meal. He appeared before the Sanhedrin immediately as the Jewish leaders wanted him tried as quickly as possible. He is accused of blasphemy and claiming to be king of the Jews. He is judged guilty, condemned to die, and turned over to Pontius Pilate. To Elise Strobel joining us, former legal editor at the Chicago Tribune. And I say that to tell you that he is a hard-boiled investigative reporter, former atheist, who is now a devout Christian. And of course, when I say devout Christian, I don't really see, many people think that that means perfect. We aren't anything but perfect and that is to me the beauty of Christianity because if Christ could take the disciples who were quite the lot, okay, and turn them into heroes, maybe, maybe there's a chance for the rest of us.

Starting point is 00:25:03 And I'm throwing Paul in that pot to stew. He actually tortured and killed Christians and became a great great supporter of Christ and is the author of Romans in the Bible, the book of Romans. Speaking of probative evidence, again Lee, I've described how I now see the world after law school. I went to law school following the murder of my fiance. I went from that emotional mess to becoming a felony prosecutor and the only way I could do it was to shut out any and all emotion

Starting point is 00:25:46 and look at the facts. Know my case and their case better than they did so I could be prepared to destroy it. So I'm asking you about hard evidence. We've talked about eyewitness accounts that saw Christ following, walking and talking, eating food after the resurrection, after being crucified. And there was no doubt he was killed because

Starting point is 00:26:20 when his body first turned up missing out of the tomb, Pilate sent his hench people to look in all of the graves, mass graves, burial grounds to try to find his body to parade it and show, look, he's really dead. But it couldn't be found. Now, what I want to talk to you about is contemporaneous writings at the time about Christ. And contemporaneous means a lot to me because we are very willing to accept, for instance, the story of the Trojan War in Iliad and Odyssey written by Homer. And that was written hundreds of years after the Trojan War. I believe it was written in the 7th or 8th century. But yet we're like, yeah, okay, I get it. Trojan War. I believe it was written in the 7th or 8th century.

Starting point is 00:27:05 But yet we're like, yeah, okay, I get it. Trojan War. It happened. Why is it such heresy to say, John 3.16, true story? I don't get the difference. I want to talk about writings at the time by non-Christians that talk about Christ. Well, we have all kinds of evidence from the first century. You know, Jesus really proved his divinity by returning from the dead.

Starting point is 00:27:31 Before he died, he got up before a group and he said, I and the Father are one. And the Greek word for one there is not masculine, it's neuter, which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father are the same person. He was saying I and the Father are the same thing. We're one in nature. We're one in essence. And the audience understood what he was saying because they picked up stones to kill him. He said, you, you're just a man and you're claiming to be God. So Jesus claimed to be God.

Starting point is 00:27:56 But so what? Anybody can do that. But it was his resurrection that proved that he is indeed who he claimed to be, the unique son of God. And so you would expect that there would be writings in the first century, shortly thereafter, that would establish the truth of the resurrection. And we do have this report with named eyewitnesses and groups of eyewitnesses that it's been dated back to within months of his death. I don't know if people realize how significant that is historically. When you consider the first two biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arian and Plutarch 400 years after his life, and they're

Starting point is 00:28:30 generally considerable. And yet here we have a report going back within months of his death, after he affirmed who he is by returning from the dead. Not only that, but we've had, as I mentioned, the nine ancient sources confirming the conviction of the disciples that they did encounter him resurrected. The disciples were in a different position. Of all human beings who've ever lived on the planet, they were there. They touched the resurrected Jesus. They talked to him. They ate with him. They knew for a fact. They didn't just believe it. They knew for a fact. Is this true or is it a lie? And knowing it was true, they were willing to live lives of deprivation and suffering. They were willing to die for their proclamation that Jesus had risen.

Starting point is 00:29:11 Nobody knowingly and willingly dies for a lie. Joining me is another special guest in addition to Strobel, father at Pazania, Michael Lacona, and Billy Halliwell. Longtime friend and colleague, now author, Guy Powell. Host of podcast, The Backstory on the Shroud of Turin, which is amazing. It's incredible, your podcast, but also author of a brand new book, one of many, The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin. I believe, could you show me your copy? I'm sure you've got one handy.

Starting point is 00:29:54 Guy Powell, new book, The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin. I want to follow up, Guy, on something that Lee Strobel just said. He is referring to eyewitnesses. He's referring to people that came in contact with the disciples and described what they said and how they were willing to die for what they witnessed. I want to talk to you, and this ties in with your assertion that the Shroud of Turin is real, that it was used to wrap the body of Christ and he emerged from the tomb and the Shroud survived with his imprint on it. I want to refer you to Cornelius Tacitus. He lived 56 to 120 AD, secular, secular, non-religious.

Starting point is 00:30:52 And this is what I look for when I try a case. Say I put up an eyewitness. I know he's going to be, he, she's going to be attacked on cross-examination, hopefully not destroyed. But I look for corroborating facts. How can I corroborate? Can I corroborate what this witness has said with impartial evidence? Okay. Then I can tell a jury, this is why you should believe Guy Powell, because one, two, three, and four, it's irrefutable.

Starting point is 00:31:21 I don't care what they say. So Guy, back to Cornelius Tacitus, he confirms several historical elements that have been found in secular, non-religious texts. For instance, that Christ did live in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, his followers were persecuted and murdered murdered and much more. So, so much of the story is corroborated by secular, non-religious translation. They don't have a dog in the fight, no skin in the game, they don't care, corroborates the story of Christ. Yeah, that is such an important piece of the evidence and the proof of the resurrection, you know, that singular thing that really defines Christianity.

Starting point is 00:32:10 And, you know, and even when you look at those other writers and how they also reflect what's been written in the Gospels as well, you know, so you have, you know, the appearances and those are written in the Gospels. You have then the crucifixion that are written in the Gospels. You have then the crucifixion, that's described in the Gospels. You have the wounds that he suffered and other evidence that reflects what's in the four Gospels with the wounds to the hands, with the wounds to the feet, with the wounds to the side, with the crown of thorns, with the beating and the wounds from all of those whippings that he suffered. And the Shroud of Turin reflects all of that. And so I think that, you know, that right there, in addition to all of these writings from the contemporary authors,

Starting point is 00:33:19 contemporaneous authors also reflects then another dimension of proof that that that supports these other writers. He was nailed to a cross and hung between two convicted thieves. A sign attached to the top of the cross said, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews. Crucifixion is not a fast death, and the Gospel of Mark says Jesus was crucified at the third hour, or 9 a.m. While on the cross, Jesus was taunted and harassed. Around noon, darkness covered the earth and lasted for hours. In the ninth hour, around 3 p.m., Jesus died on the cross.

Starting point is 00:33:52 Crime Stories with Nancy Grace In the Bible, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke describe a darkness covering the land from noon to 3 p.m. during Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus was a historian and secular writer around 50 A.D. who is probably the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus, but his works don't exist anymore except were quoted by Julius Africanus in 221 A.D. Thallus previously tried to explain the way the darkness occurring at Jesus' crucifixion. He said, The darkness and the temple being ripped in half has now been corroborated. Well, it was already corroborated in ancient writings by Talos in the third book of his history.

Starting point is 00:34:56 Straight out to Lee Strobel. I find it very interesting that in your case for Christ, you report many, many Roman accounts of corroboration of the story of Christ and the resurrection. But you also refer to Jewish accounts. Christ was a Jew. And you refer to the Talmud, an important Jewish work, where he was referred to as a false Messiah who, quote, practiced magic and would heal people through some magical means. I find that very corroborative. Well, very much so. And also the Talmud also reports

Starting point is 00:35:36 that Jesus was executed and thus killed. You know, a lot of skeptics like I had been said, well, maybe Jesus didn't die on the cross. Maybe he survived the crucifixion. Maybe he fainted. Maybe the cool, damp air of the tomb resuscitated him. And so that's where this idea of the resurrection came from. But we have five ancient sources outside the Bible that report the execution of Jesus, including Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, Tacitus, Mirabar Serapion, Lucian, and the Jewish tailman. In fact, get this, even the Journal of the American Medical Association, a secular, scientific,

Starting point is 00:36:15 peer-reviewed medical journal, carried an investigation into the death of Jesus. And their conclusion was, quote, clearly, the weight of the historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even before the wound to his side was inflicted. conclusion was, quote, clearly, the weight of the historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even before the wound to his side was inflicted. So this idea that somehow Jesus survived the crucifixion is disproven by reports inside the New Testament, outside the New Testament, and even the Journal of the American Medical Association to the point where one of the most famous atheist New Testament scholars, Gerd Ludeman, said it is indisputable historically that Jesus died when he was crucified. The dying part I get, Father Cedric Pizania, is the resurrection. I believe that it bears great scrutiny. I have been convinced for many, many reasons.

Starting point is 00:37:07 But Father, really? The cold, damp air in the tomb revived him. He was almost severed in half with a sword through his side, one side to the next. He was dead, Father. And also, can I get you to address, Father, which I find very significant, the fact that women who are so mistreated around the world, so looked down upon, so not able to speak, women, Mary and Mary Magdalene, were the first to find him. They were the ones to find that he was no longer in the tomb. I find that very significant. I do too, because you would think that the gospel writers would want to downplay that. But they told the truth as it was, that a woman, a second-class citizen in that

Starting point is 00:37:57 society, was the first to witness the resurrection. And if they were trying to create a lie scenario, they wouldn't have said that at all. But let me say this also. You quoted Thomas the doubter, and Jesus said to him, you believe because you've seen, but blessed are those who believe without seeing. Whether it be the shroud or the evidence we're presenting in a trial, jury goes to talk things over, then they have to make a decision. And I think that's what God wants from us. He wants faith, wants us to make a decision. He could have given us more evidence, but I think it's exactly the way God wanted it.

Starting point is 00:38:40 And now it's our choice. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. And as you believe, you will see. That's the Gospel of John. Seeing doesn't come just by seeing. It comes through faith. And that's what I think this whole program is about. We're hoping to inspire people's faith

Starting point is 00:38:58 that there not only is a resurrection, but it can change your life. So blessed are those who believe without seeing. To Billy Halliwell, joining us from CBN, give me your best case for the resurrection. You know, I think the biggest question of where the body is, we've gone through so many facts today. I mean, I look at Paul and his life. I mean, these are radical transformations. You have the 500. I think it's important to go back to that. And if you look at where these 500 people who apparently all saw

Starting point is 00:39:30 Jesus at the same time after his death and resurrection, it's written in first Corinthians, that book was written in AD 55. And as Lee was saying, this was at a time when most of the people were still alive. I mean, you think about, you have to put all the pieces together into a puzzle. And when you do that, it becomes remarkable that somebody, Paul, would be willing to write that. But I think the biggest evidence, obviously everything we've talked about, extending into today, and most of my job is spent talking to people whose lives have changed. They've gone from prison to finding Jesus. They've gone from horrific careers in drugs and other places, I won't even mention, into becoming pastors. What is it that changes a person? It's the very same thing through the resurrection that we see in the Bible. And we're

Starting point is 00:40:15 seeing that still in people's lives today. Well put, Billy. Guy Powell, having prosecuted crimes for so long, horrible felonies, people torturing each other, literally torturing babies, murdering just drugs. I'm convinced that just as there is a Holy Father, that there is a devil. I don't know the ins and outs. I don't know the details, but from what I've seen, it's very real in our world. Guy, best case for the resurrection. Hit me. Yeah. I mean, I agree with everybody else, but I think the best case is the Shroud of Turin. It is a physical proof that has actual proof and elements in it that reflect the resurrection and reflect the, I'm sorry, reflect the Gospels. All four of the Gospels talk about the inhumane, the devilish things that the Romans did to this man. And each one of those things, the crown of thorns,

Starting point is 00:41:21 as you're showing, the, you know, the whip marks, the nailing through the hands and the feet, and then the side wound to make sure that he was dead. All of those are reflected on the shroud. And that shroud then has been it is 2,000 years old and that it has survived all of these earthquakes and fires and things like that. And it would never have survived if it wasn't the proof to me, if it wasn't the proof that Jesus Christ lived on the earth. He walked with us and then he died and was resurrected. Guy Powell, author of The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin. If you still doubt, which I'm sure many people do, conduct your own investigation as Lee Strobel did, as Father Pazegna did, Michael Lacona,

Starting point is 00:42:21 Guy Powell, Billy Halliwell. Find out the truth for yourself beyond a reasonable doubt. John 3.16, true story. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - THE CASE FOR RESURRECTION: JOHN 3:16, TRUE STORY

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