Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - The DELPHI MURDERS: Suspect Richard Allen Bows Head, Prays Before Shocking Pictures of Abby & Libby Shown In Court

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Libby German's and Abby Williams' families were informed that crime scene photos, including some very gruesome images of the girls, would be shown during testimony. Although the photos have not been made public, they were shown to the jury, and members of the gallery could also see them. As the photos were displayed, Crime Scene Investigator Sergeant Jason Page described what was captured in the 42 crime scene photos, including more than 20 images of Libby and Abby. Sgt. Page took the crime scene photos presented in court. Referring to the area as "ground zero," Page explained that the taped-off section was roughly the size of a football field, though most of the physical evidence was concentrated within 30 to 40 feet of the girls' bodies. The photos clearly showed a significant amount of blood at the scene, with Sgt. Page testifying that there was enough blood to soak into the ground beneath the leaves. One of the photos depicted Libby and Abby lying less than five feet apart, their feet angled toward each other. Fourteen-year-old Libby was nude, her pale skin stained with blood on her hands, thigh, chest, throat, and face. She was covered with twigs, which crisscrossed her throat, and a heavy bough lay lengthwise across her left side. Thirteen-year-old Abby, lying to Libby's right, was dressed in some of Libby's clothing in addition to her own. Sgt. Jason Page noted that her jeans appeared damp. During the photo presentation, an image unexpectedly flashed on the screen without warning or introduction. It was a close-up of Libby German's bloodied face. The image startled the courtroom, causing audible gasps from the families in the gallery, and prompted an apology from State Attorney James Luttrull Jr., who said he had intended to provide a lead-in to the picture. Anticipating the prosecution's introduction of audio and video recordings from Libby German's phone, Richard Allen's defense team filed a motion requesting that the judge prevent the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings that were provided to the defense. The defense team argued that the audio and video supplied by the state had been manipulated, with the audio enhanced and sections of the recording looped. The defense is not asking to block the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings but is seeking guidelines on how the jurors will view and listen to them. They also want specific limits on the questions that can be asked of witnesses regarding the recordings. The request aims to prevent questions that would lead witnesses to interpret the words and sounds. The defense stated, "It is up to the jury to determine what words or sounds exist on the recordings." Richard Allen's defense team claims that the audio and video clips from Libby German's phone, provided by the state, had been enhanced and that certain sounds were looped, repeating a phrase spoken by either Libby or Abby, along with an audio clip of a man's voice. The defense argues that these enhancements are "investigatory tools" and that "interpreting the words and sounds on the enhanced video requires a completely subjective analysis JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY: Phillip Dubé  – Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); X: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Appearing in “Paris in Love” on Peacock; BOOK: “Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Sheryl McCollum  – Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone7 Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic Barbara MacDonald - Court TV Documentary Producer, Co-Host/Producer of HLN’s “Down The Hill Podcast” and Documentary, X: @NewsyBarbara   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Delphi double murder suspect bows his head and prays before photos of Little Abby 13 Abby, 13, and Liberty, 14, are displayed before the jurors, the girls, nude, semi-clad, and murdered. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. As soon as you get into town, I mean, it's picturesque, it's beautiful, everybody's super friendly. You're talking about Delphi, Indiana. It was supposed to be a walk in the woods shared by two friends. Abby Williams and Libby German went to this hiking trail near

Delphi's Monon High Bridge. But there's no way you'd find that bridge if you're not from there. When the girls didn't return to the spot where they were supposed to be picked up, their families knew something was wrong. They thought maybe the girls were hurt. That bridge is treacherous. And they never thought they would hear maybe the girls were hurt. That bridge is treacherous and they never thought they would hear that the girls were murdered. Carroll County Sheriff's Deputy Darren Giancola, the first deputy to arrive at the scene, said he was called to the area of Deer Creek because they had been told members of a search party found something, possibly bodies. Giancola says there were multiple people in the area when he saw a multicolored shirt and a shoe in the water. He said when he first saw the bodies of Abby and

Libby, one was nude, the other was clothed. Giancola said he did not perform life-saving measures on the girls because it was apparent they were deceased. Joining us, an investigative reporter who has been there in the courtroom, Barbara McDonald McDonald joining us from Delphi, a documentary producer and co-host of Down the Hill podcast. Barbara, thank you so much for being with us. Barbara, so many bombshells in that courtroom. I want to start with the fact that now we know why the girls' clothing was soaked. And yesterday, Barbara, I couldn't figure out why did one person see a t-shirt in a tree? Now I know. Please explain. Yeah. So we heard from several of the crime scene investigators who arrived and described finding the clothing of the girls in the creek. There were about three different areas where the clothing was in the

creek. And two of those areas, the clothing was sort of stuck on debris in the creek. The hoodie, the gray hoodie that Abby had been wearing that had belonged to Kelsey German. We saw Abby wearing that in that Snapchat image that Libby posted of the girls before their abduction. That was submerged in the creek. All of the clothing that was collected from the creek was inside out, including Abby's jeans, Libby's tie-dye t-shirt, that gray hoodie, two socks, one black, one pink. And then we heard that the girls were found, Libby was completely nude, and Abby was wearing Libby's jeans and hoodie,

along with a gray sports bra that we believe belonged to Abby. And Abby also had her shoes on when she was found, those Converse sneakers we saw in that same Snapchat image. Nancy? And joining us from the courthouse there in Delphi, joining us from Delphi is Barbara McDonald. I want to talk about the significance, Barbara, as to why the girls' clothes were soaked. Why, when their bodies were found well after the murders, their clothing was still soaked. Were they forced to wade across the creek?

That is the theory from the state that Richard Allen forced these girls off the bridge down the hill to a secluded area on the south side of the creek, but then was interrupted during that attack, that he intended to have his way with these girls down at the bottom of the hill, but was interrupted and then forced them to cross the creek over onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed at the scene where they were found. The images that we

found also showed large amounts of blood at that scene. But the crime scene investigators described the clothing that Abby was wearing, all of it, the hoodie, the jeans, as well as her shoes, all being damp or wet to the touch. And they said it could not have come from condensation. It could not have come from being out in the elements overnight, that it definitely was from the creek. They also had a lot of that silt and that sort of dirt that's in the creek and debris on their clothing, as well as for Abby, even though she was found wearing her shoes, they did show some images of her feet after her shoes had been removed. Her feet were dirty, had some of that, that filthy sort of sandy dirt on her feet, as well as some leaf debris. So it certainly appears that at some point, Abby's

shoes were off and then put back on her. I know this may seem obsessive, Barbara, but if you don't mind, I'd like to hear what you said again regarding the discovery of the clothes, their condition, who was wearing what, where the clothes were. And then I'm going to go forward to the actual scene, the blood-soaked earth, and my theory that the scene was staged. Let's start with the clothes again. If you don't mind, Barbara, please go ahead. No, not at all. So the clothing items that were found in the creek, there were three different areas where

the clothing was found, all within the same general area, but perhaps about 10 feet apart, each of those three areas. Two of the areas that clothing was actually stuck on debris and was visible from the surface of the water. The gray hoodie that you see Abby wearing right there in that image was found submerged in the creek. All of the clothing that was in the creek was inside out. And all of those items were wet. All of those items had that silty, sandy debris from the creek is how the crime scene investigator described it,

as well as some leaf material. And then as I mentioned, Libby's or Abby's feet rather, under her shoes was dirty. There was signs that she had taken the shoes off at some point or that someone had, and she had walked perhaps a little ways without any shoes on her feet, and then the shoes were put back on. I could only see one of her shoes in the images shown in court yesterday. That shoe was not tied, and the tongue appeared to be pulled out as if you were taking it off or putting it back on your foot. To Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and star of the Zone 7 podcast. Cheryl, the picture, the picture in my mind of these clothes covered in dirt, the one shoe, the Nike shoe with the clothes in the creek. You know, Cheryl, I remember my first carjack murder case.

I remember it like I tried it yesterday. But the image that almost not quite choked me up in front of the jury was a neighbor ran out. The victim was a teen boy. And he was shot in his front, his mom's front yard where he lived and the perp took off in the car. And the neighbor, hearing a commotion, ran out with a pillow off of his own bed and went and put it under the victim's head. The victim was already dead. He was shot in the head. But when I saw the crime scene photo for the first time, I hadn't investigated it yet,

I'm like, why does the victim have a pillow under his head in the driveway? And then I went and interviewed the neighbor and I found out that poignant moment where the victim is dead and he's putting his head on a pillow in the driveway. That photo, and I know we've seen a lot of horrific photos in the courtroom over the last two days of the victims, but the image, Cheryl McCollum, of these little girls' clothes having been forced to strip, wet and filthy in the creek, is so upsetting and poignant to me. I can't really identify how wrong this is. Cheryl.

Nancy, what it says to me is time was taken. More time than maybe they originally thought in a scene like this. It's hard to take wet clothes off, much less put them back on. If anybody's ever fallen into water and tried to take wet jeans off, it's tough. But to turn back around and try to put them back on, you would have to struggle even if those jeans were a little too big for you. The fact that they were unbuttoned and unzipped tells me Abby didn't hike that way.

You know, I think that was done again at the murder scene. So if you take it step by step, the way Barbara has laid this out so beautifully, you can see again, like we talked about yesterday, these breadcrumbs of evidence where you know where it started, you know where it ended, and you know the time that it took. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Joseph Scott Morgan joining me. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of the hit new series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, we keep referring to the fact that Libby was nude and Abby had on Libby's clothing. Well, at some point, Abby was nude too. Abby was forced to strip as well. So I'm going to get to the fact that we don't have any DNA from the perp, the alleged perp yet. But Joe Scott, I would like you to help me analyze what Barbara has told us, because I am telling you in every sentence that she conveyed, which has just come

out in the courtroom, there is probative value. Each thing proves something to me. The fact that the clothing was apart, but in three separate areas. The fact that some of it was down the stream. Obviously, he was trying to get rid of the clothing by throwing it. Or did the girl strip there and then forced to a secluded area? We know that they were barefoot. Why were they barefoot? We know that their clothing was still soaked by the time their bodies were found. Tell me what this tells you, Joe Scott. I think that the idea of the clothing being separated out over an area, this goes to a pattern with this fellow. Let me expand on that. I think that for each item that's there, there's a potential. He was throwing these items in front of these children

one by one into the creek. Imagine how menacing that is when you begin to think about, you're watching these young girls being humiliated relative to exposure of their bodies to this creepy guy that's out there in the woods, not to mention one another out in the open. And all the while, it's a matter of control.

He has a pattern of menacing, Nancy. And if we could bring the camera back up, let me show you something else here. The idea that they had a live.40 caliber round at the scene that had been cycled through a weapon, again, that goes to menacing. You're going to push these girls to do whatever you want them to do. And then afterwards, afterwards, you're going to redress bodies. So you've got all these bits of evidence that are spread about. I don't think that these are random in any way. I think they were used to leverage these girls doing whatever he wanted to do. People talk about how it was an unusually warm day. Let me tell you what wasn't warm. That water. That water will get your attention that time of year up there. It's

freezing. So you talk about debasing and humiliating. That's only a part of it. Dr. Bethany Marshall with us. Renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A., author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock or find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, two thoughts. You know, a gun makes a big man little and a little man big. And that's just what he was doing. As Joe Scott said, but think about it, Dr. Bethany, humiliating these two prepubescent girls, one's 13, one's 14. I mean, they look like little girls. Humiliating them by making them strip, A, in front of a guy, a grown man, they hardly know, the pharmacy tech for Pete's sake, and out in public in the woods. Nancy, I can imagine these poor little girls screaming and crying and

just so distraught. Nancy, where this all begins for me, and I love Joe Scott Morgan's use of the word menacing, is when he says down the hill. That, if you listen to his tone of voice, it's dripping with contempt, hatred. You are two bad little girls. You belong to me. If anybody watching this program has ever been in an abusive relationship, they will recognize that tone of voice. He makes them wade through the river. I do agree with the panel. He is trying to have control over them in every way possible, but also to degrade, to humiliate and to force them into sexual submission is really behind a lot of these crimes. And in terms of throwing the clothing in the creek, he was wanting to scare them. It's like, don't run away. Your clothing is not here anymore. And the fact that

Nancy, he put the clothing back on, it was like he was preserving the bodies to come back later so he could rape them again. Richard Allen's he was preserving the bodies to come back later so he could rape them again. Richard Allen's defense team claims the audio and video clips found on Libby German's phone that they receive from the state have been enhanced and the sounds have been put on a loop, repeating a phrase spoken by either Libby or Abby, as well as an audio clip of a man speaking. The defense claims those enhancements are investigatory tools in that interpreting the words and sounds on the enhanced video requires a completely subjective analysis. I bet they are trying to get that audio suppressed. Now we know why. Joining me from Delphi,

Barbara McDonald, who hasn't missed a word of testimony, Barbara McDonald, isn't it true that when the audio is enhanced, because remember Libby is walking along on gravel, the wind is blowing. She's out there in the woods coming down off that trestle bridge, which is really high up. If you take a good look at it, it's up there with tree tops. It's very high up. We visited it. It's way up there. So she's walking along the gravel off this trestle bridge. If you enhance that audio, multiple ear witnesses state that you hear one of the girls saying words to the effect of, does he have a gun or gun? He's still there or is he still there? That's why they don't want it enhanced. I listened to that video several times, Nancy, and I really struggled to make out what exactly was being said. In addition to the gravel and the wind that you mentioned, Abby, or rather Libby, when she's making that video is moving her

phone up and down, almost like this. And so you don't have one steady shot of the man. You definitely see at the beginning of the video that he is further behind Abby. Abby is looking down at the railroad ties. We all know it's a very treacherous bridge to cross and you need to pay attention to where you're putting behind her. And towards the end of the video, he absolutely makes up much of that ground and is much closer to her at the end of the video than he is at the beginning of that 42-second video. The video ends right after he tells them down the hill. We did hear testimony and saw pictures of a slide area where the leaves were disturbed at the south end of that bridge going down that hill. It is very steep.

I have walked that area myself. I went down on my butt so you could imagine that perhaps the girls did the same thing. Would that disturbance of the leaves, Barbara McDonald, be consistent with the girls going down on that side and then being forced to wade across the creek and their bodies being found on the other side? Yes. So there were two hills they would have gone down. The first part of the hill was described as perhaps 15 or 20 feet down. And then there's a gravel driveway that's a private driveway belonging to one of the homeowners on that south side of the creek. And then there's another hill also about 15 or 20 feet that they would have gone down to be in

what was described as sort of a floodplain area closer to the creek. And the state's theory is that that's where Richard Allen was intending to have his way with these girls. Those are the prosecutor's words from his opening statement, and that he was interrupted there, perhaps by that homeowner who would have been driving along that private drive about 3.30 that afternoon, and then therefore crossed the creek with the girls onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed. Barbara McDonald, tell me again your impressions of what you could hear. Did you hear the enhanced version or no? I don't believe I heard the enhanced version. I heard the original version.

You could make out the down the hill spoken by the man. There is only one man in the video that I saw, that 42-second video. But I really struggled to hear what I believe Abby says to Libby about, is he still there? I really listened for the word gun. I even closed my eyes and listened to the video a couple of times, trying to really make out what was spoken. And it is just not very clear. Certainly wasn't clear to me. I think it is open to interpretation,

which is why I think the defense wants the jury to be able to hear those words and make up their own mind about what is said. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. My question is, Barbara, according to others that have heard the audio, they can make out the word gun and words to the effect of he has a gun. Does he have a gun? It's really hard to make it out. Other than hearing what you believe you heard to be, is he still there or he is still there? Could you hear the girl speaking at all other than that one comment? You hear Libby saying something to the man. It sounds like at some point before the video began, he gave them some sort of instructions. And she is standing there at the end of the bridge saying, there's no place to go, there's no path. And that's when he says, down the hill. And that's right as the,

you can hear the rustling of them perhaps beginning that descent down the hill. And that's when the video cuts out and you don't see or hear anything else. Okay. So you, Barbara, were able to make out, we usually hear with the naked eye, but with the naked ear, unenhanced. You hear, is it Libby or Abby saying there's no path, there's no place to go? Who do you think? It's Libby saying that. And then after that, you hear the guy on the bridge say down the hill. And then, Barbara. Yes.

The state is bringing in evidence that there were disturbed leaves down the hill. Yes. And I had heard that previously from a member of Libby's family who searched that south end of the bridge that he described seeing an area that he said looked to him like somebody slid on their butt down the hill. And that's sort of how the crime scene investigators described it. It would have been very difficult to walk down that hill, especially if you were scared or being forced or in a rush. When I went down that hill, it was very steep, very slippery because of all the leaves that are in the area. And I scooted on my bottom down most of that hill. Once you get closer to the bottom, it does even out a bit before you get to that gravel driveway. But then there's

another hill also about 15 or 20 feet down on the other side of that gravel driveway to get down to the area near the creek. Richard Allen's defense team files a motion asking the judge to prevent the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings that were turned over to the defense. The defense team claims the audio and video the state turned over to them has been manipulated by enhancing the audio and looping the recording. We are at the courthouse bringing you the latest as the Delphi murders trial goes on. And with me from Delphi is Barbara McDonald. To the rest of the panel, I'll bring you right in, but I want to get all the facts from her. Barbara, the defense is trying so hard to keep this video and audio away from the jury. And now we know why. The more I question you, the more I learn.

Now, you're telling me that you hear Libby stating as he's obviously holding them at gunpoint from what others say they hear reference to a gun on the audio, telling them to go down into the woods off the trestle bridge. Libby says there's no place to go. There's no path. And he says down the hill. Now, let's connect this. Then the state is introducing evidence where the leaves are disturbed. You went the very same path and you ended up on your rear end going down on your rear end.

We then know they confronted the creek. And then for whatever reason, they were forced to wade across the creek. Their clothes completely soaked. I want to ask you to think back. Is there anything else that you could make out on that audio or video? Anything at all? Because I've already learned they're saying there's no place to go. There's no path. The possibility that they are saying he's got a gun. Them stating, is he still there? So we're learning a lot. Is there any other utterance that you could make out, Barbara? No, I couldn't. And you don't see a gun in the video if he is showing one or has previously shown one to them. That is not obvious in the video. But because of the way

that Libby is trying to make this recording without him being aware that she's making the recording, her phone is in her hand and she's motioning with that hand. And so a lot of times when the phone kind of comes up and shows the bridge scene before she moves her hand back down, the man is obscured behind Abby. And so you don't really have a lot of great video of him, even though that video is 42 seconds long. It's really only bits of that video that show him at all. And several of the times that the camera comes back up, Libby, or Abby rather, is completely blocking him from view. But he definitely during the course of that video makes up a lot of ground, whereas he's further away from the girls at the beginning of the video. By the end of the video, he is caught up and is much, much closer within a few feet of the girls. So he's absolutely pursuing them. When does the video audio end? What's the last thing you hear? You hear the rustling of

he says down the hill and then it appears that they start to go down that hill in that area where those leaves were disturbed and that's when it gets sort of staticky. You hear a bunch of other noise and then it just cuts out and that's the end of the video. And that was the end. That's the last known utterances of those two little girls. That was near the end of their lives before they were forced to wade across that creek, strip out the open. And then their throats were slashed. Cheryl McCollum, you've said all along that you thought the perp had a knife or a gun in his pocket, or else why walk that way?

He walked with his hands stuck in his pockets all the way down that bridge. Correct. Not only do I think he had a weapon, I think he brandished it. I think that's how we gained control of the two of them without them screaming. I think that's why they did exactly what he said, because, you know, they probably believed if we do what he tells us to do, he won't hurt us. But if you look at him on that bridge and I've been at that bridge, my sister went on that bridge. There's no way you don't have your hands out. Just making sure you keep your balance because there is no right.

Right. And if you were to 60 feet up in the air, you're up there with the treetops. Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer out of L.A. He is with the public defender's office. What does that mean? That means he's tried a lot of cases, a lot of cases that he wanted to try, and a lot of cases a judge shoved down his throat that he had to try. Philip Dubé, I want to quickly touch on the legal aspect, the legal argument the defense is making that they do not want this tape enhanced. I'm sure they don't, Philip. Do they have a leg to stand on? No, they don't. I mean,

let's be honest here. The evidence against Mr. Allen is compelling. I'll give you that. I'll give everybody involved in the prosecution that. But to be fair, I think their only hope at this point is to chip away at what the state's got and try to find legal grounds to exclude it all. And I will tell you, Nancy, there is no scientific reliability on voice comparison, on voice analysis. And I don't believe it has ever been held to be scientifically reliable by the U.S. Supreme Court review process. Dubé, did I ask you about making a voice comparison? No, I did not. I know you want to talk about it because that behooves the defense. But what I'm asking you is about the enhancement. The defense does not want the jury to hear an enhanced diversion. I mean, Barbara McDonald, for Pete's

sake, had to close her eyes and strain to hear. But if they enhance that audio video, it may be very, very clear. And the defense doesn't want that. Now, if this were you, how would you fight that enhancement? I would say that it, how would you fight that enhancement? I would say that it lacks foundation and authentication, that even if it is enhanced, you don't have anybody coming into court to say that that enhanced version sounds just like Richard Allen. Who do you really have? Who are they going to put on to do that comparison? And, you know, the standard is not that the recording is good enough, passes muster. You know, it's good enough for me. That's not the standard. It has to be somehow scientifically reliable because juries put a lot of value.

They put a lot of importance on this type of evidence because it comes through the court as having this imprimatur, if you will, of gospel truth. So unless and until you have some scientific foundation for it and authentication, it absolutely should be excluded from evidence. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Describing a photo of Libby and Abby laying less than five feet apart, their feet angled towards each other. 14-year-old Libby is nude, her skin pale as porcelain, stained with blood on her hands, thigh, chest, throat, and face. She is covered with twigs, which crisscrossed at her throat, and one heavy bow that lay lengthwise across her left side. 13-year-old Abby is laying to Libby's right. She is dressed in some of Libby's clothing as well as her own.

Sergeant Jason Page says her jeans appear damp. Joining me in All-Star Panel to make sense of what we are learning and to dissect and analyze the evidence, which is crucial in this case, Barbara McDonald with me, investigative reporter, documentary producer there in Delphi. This is critical, Barbara. Now, isn't it true that one of the girls has dried blood running horizontal? Think of her standing up and she has dried blood running from the inner thigh horizontally across her leg to the outer thigh. Explain. Yeah. So in the photo, you definitely saw an area on Libby's right thigh where it looked like there were six or eight drops of blood. That's how the crime scene investigator described them as being drops of blood. And then travel

marks is how he worded it. Moving from the inner thigh to the outer thigh, making straight lines across her thigh. There were about six or eight of them, as I said, and several of the reporters that I was sitting with, we were trying to imagine what position Libby would have been in when those marks were made, how that would have been done. Again, it was described as drops of blood with travel marks traveling to the outside of her thigh. Each of those travel marks may be five or six inches in length. That is so significant, Barbara. Guys, Barbara McDonald just straight out of the courtroom and what a day it has been in that Delphi murderous trial. Let's analyze what Barbara has just told us.

Jessica Morgan, clearly this is a problem for the defense. The bodies were staged because that blood by the rules of gravity did not run horizontally across her leg. She had to be in a position, possibly on her side, where the blood dropped on her and then it ran down and then her body was turned back over and the blood dried. Isn't that interesting? One, two, three, four, five. What if it's a point of transfer where the fingertips are super saturated with blood? You place your hand on the thigh, perhaps to manipulate the thigh in some way, and then you go to move the body in this idea of posing. And of course, gravity is going to take over and it's going to kind of arc away from the initial point where you touched.

No, because these were not transfer from fingers. These were drops, blood drops. I understand that there were drops. So if you have, like I said, if the fingertips are super saturated with blood, and even if he's just holding over like this, you're going to get this falling away. And it won't fall away much. It's not going to get, he's not, what I'm saying is he's in very close proximity to it. Maybe they are transfers.

Maybe they didn't read them correctly. But we know that there's a robust amount of blood, so much so that it would track away when you move the body. It's not just merely, merely a smudge. This is a robust droplet of blood. And then you would have to have sufficient energy to get this thing to move. I think that it goes probably to the manipulation of the body, maybe into posing. Got it. Barbara McDonald, also, there were a lot of theories at the beginning that the girls were

killed somewhere else and then their bodies dumped here. As a matter of fact, isn't it true, Barbara, that one of the defenses theory, they've got a scatter shot theory, like you're shooting a shotgun and the shells go every, you know, the buckshot goes everywhere. That's impossible because the defense theory is that they were killed somewhere else, brought back there and dumped. And that timeline assertion would exclude the defendant if they were killed elsewhere and brought back because he can establish his whereabouts later on. So they want to be able to establish the girls were killed elsewhere and then brought back, possibly even the next day. But at the beginning, when the bodies were first found, there's a lot of speculation the scene was, quote, pristine. No, the saying was not pristine. Explain. That's right. There were two very large areas of

blood on the ground away from the bodies, about two feet from the feet of Abby and Libby was the largest pool of blood that the crime scene investigator described as the ground still being saturated two and three days after the murders. There was another area where there was a tree to the right of Abigail, maybe two or three feet from her body. That's the tree that had the so-called F mark on it. We found out that there were two areas of blood on that tree. And then just on the opposite side of the tree from where the bodies were found was another pool of blood on the ground. And then as you described, there was a lot of blood on Libby's body. She had blood on her hands. She had blood on her chest and her face.

She had blood on her thighs. She had blood on her right heel and the back of her right calf. Abigail, mostly the blood was in the area of her injury to her neck. Her hands were clean. Her feet had no blood on them. And it didn't appear that there was much blood on the front of the clothing that Abigail was wearing. When they rolled her over, they did see a lot of blood on the back of her sweatshirt. And there was another pool of blood under her body. That's also where they found that second Nike shoe. It was under Abigail.

And then under that shoe was Libby's cell phone. They described the area where the shoe and the phone were as being behind the small of her back. What about the phone? Where was the phone, Barbara, the phone that made this recording? The phone was right under that shoe and it was face up and it had a lot of condensation, they said, on the cover. It was obscured by leaves. And the first image when they removed the shoe, I struggled to see the phone in that photograph. They moved the leaves away and then you could see the phone. They also flipped it over. It had a Harry Potter purple cover on the phone with a Gryffindor logo or crest on the back of it. I'm not a fan of the Harry Potter series, but it was something to do with the Gryffindor on the back of her phone. Former Indiana State Police crime scene investigator Dwayne Dotsman testified about finding the one piece of evidence linking Richard Allen to the crime scene. The unspent bullet that

prosecutors say has been cycled through the same Sig Sauer Model P 336.40 caliber handgun that Allen owned. Dotsman says he kept seeing a glitter in the leaves near the bodies and that's where he found the.40 caliber cartridge. Amazing that he thought it was glitter, something shiny and sparkly. Well, it was a treasure because it's the only hard evidence the state has right now. Of course, the evidence has just started. And what a day it has been in that Delphi trial courtroom. To Cheryl McCollum joining me, Cold Case Investigative Research Institute founder. Cheryl, what about the bullet that he first thought was glitter in the leaves?

I think the position is critical. When you eject that bullet, when you rack it and it's unspent, it goes a little backwards to the right a couple of feet. If it is between the two bodies, that means it was aimed at one of them. So when you think about trying to invoke fear, you're clearly trying to make one of the victims petrified that they're going to get shot. But you've got a second one having to watch that. Philip Dubé, joining me, high profile lawyer, a real trial attorney. He doesn't sit back and read depots in an office. He's in the courtroom

fighting it out. Philip Dubé, this is very powerful evidence because, you know, markings on bullets, it's irrefutable. It's like a fingerprint. So if this bullet came from his gun, he's up the creek without a paddle because the other suspects, and yes, there were other POIs, persons of interest, which they will use to their benefit. But none of them had this gun. I don't see why it's relevant, to be honest with you, because these girls weren't shot. It would be one thing if they found a bullet lodged in their rib cage or they found spent shell casings at the scene. Let's be honest here. An unspent shell casing does not prove a murder.

At most, it proves presence. That's it. And who's to say that that shell wasn't there before the girls were brought there? So I don't know how they're going to temporally prove his connection to the dropping of that bullet, that casing, at or near the time of the actual double homicide. So therefore, I think it's temporally and legally irrelevant. Well, that's why Philip Dubé wins all of his cases, because he said that with an absolute straight face. And actually, that's a legitimate argument. How do I know that Richard Allen hadn't been in those woods before hunting or shooting or with his gun. This is the single most critical piece of evidence as of yet, as of tonight, because it is linking him directly to that scene. But it's going to have to be argued that it must be taken in light of all

the other circumstances in order for the state to get a conviction in this case. We wait as justice unfolds. And reminder, we are live at the courthouse bringing you the latest from the Delphi murder trial, a trial we have all waited on literally for years for justice for Abby and Libby. And now we stop to remember a hero, police officer Logan Medlock, London PD, Kentucky, just 26, killed by a drunk driver in the line of duty, survived by a grieving widow, Courtney, and a son, Brantley. American hero, officer Logan Medlock. Nancy Grace, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.