Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - THE DELPHI MURDERS: TRIAL BEGINS WITH LIBBY, 14, ABBY, 13, BODIES FOUND & SLIT THROATS

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

The trial of Richard Allen is underway at the Carroll County Courthouse, where seating is limited to 72 seats. Cameras are prohibited in the courtroom, but the judge has designated 12 seats for media coverage. On the first day, after jurors arrived, journalists' cameras outside the courthouse were confiscated. Judge Fran Gull has warned the media not to follow or photograph jurors, who will be sequestered for the month-long trial. Citizens hoping to attend the trial have been camping out, and for the first two days of testimony, anyone arriving after 2:30 a.m. could not secure a seat. Despite years of coverage on the murders of Libby German and Abby Williams, police have never disclosed how the girls were killed. During his opening statement, Prosecutor Nick McLeland informed the jury, "You're going to see the crime scene. It was a gruesome scene. Libby was completely naked. Her throat was cut, blood all over. Abby's throat was also cut." The prosecution focused its case on three key points: the "Bridge Guy," the unspent bullet found at the crime scene, and the brutal murders of Libby and Abby near the Monon High Bridge. Prosecutor McLeland outlined a timeline, stating that Libby posted a photo of Abby on Snapchat while they crossed the Monon High Bridge. After noticing a man behind them, Libby started recording on her phone at 2:13 p.m. on February 13, 2017. McLeland said the man pulled a gun and ordered the girls "down the hill." The girls complied, and the phone video then stopped recording. McLeland added that Richard Allen admitted to being on the trail that day. Investigators later found a gun at his house, and testing showed that an unspent round found between the girls at the crime scene had been cycled through that gun. McLeland also stated that Allen voluntarily confessed to the crime to both his wife and mother while in jail. JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY:  Matthew Murphy - Former Orange County Homicide Prosecutor, ABC Legal Analyst, Criminal Defense Attorney, Matt Murphy Law, APC, and Author, The Book of Murder; X; @mattmurphylaw Dr. Bethany Marshall  – Psychoanalyst, Author – “Deal Breaker,”  featured in hit show: “Paris in Love” on Peacock;, Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Sheryl McCollum – Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder & Host of New Podcast: “Zone 7;” X: @149Zone Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” X: @JoScottForensic Susan Hendricks – Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’;” IG: @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Delphi murders trial finally commences with Libby just 14 and Abby 13. Photos of their bodies found, their throats slit, tears in the courtroom, working over the weekend, witnesses breaking down on the stand. One witness stating, when I first saw them, I thought they were mannequins. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. As soon as you get into town, I mean, it's picturesque. It's beautiful. Everybody's super friendly. You're talking about Delphi, Indiana. It was supposed to be a walk in the woods shared by two friends. Abby Williams and Libby German went to this hiking trail near Delphi's Monon High Bridge. But there's no way you'd find that bridge if you're not from there. When the girls didn't return to the spot where they were

supposed to be picked up, their families knew something was wrong. They thought maybe the girls were hurt. Thatly to the killer, who may be in this room, we believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have.

We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you. And you want to know what we know. And one day you will. That day is now. You were just hearing a direct warning from Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter. And oh, how right he was when he gave that chilling warning. For two years, you never thought we would shift gears to an investigative strategy, a new strategy. We have likely interviewed you. And as it turns out, the you to whom he refers

was a local pharmacy tech that had waited on Libby and Abby's family for years, even processed their photos for free. How many times do you think he poured over photos, candid photos of those girls, watching them come in and out of the pharmacy? Again, this is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace, and I want to thank you for being with us. The trial has commenced.

Listen. Even though the case of Libby German and Abby Williams' murders has been in the news for years, police have never said how the girls were killed. During his opening statement, prosecutor Nick McGleeland told the jury, You're going to see the crime scene. It was a gruesome scene. Libby was completely naked. Her throat was cut, blood all over. Abby's throat was also cut. Joining us at the courthouse is

investigative reporter Susan Hendricks. But before I go to her, I want to go out to Matt Murphy, high profile lawyer, former Orange County homicide prosecutor, ABC legal analyst, and author of The Book of Murder. Matt, thank you for being with us. I would try to warn victims' families about photos that would be introduced into court. And very often those photos would be put up on a slide show or handed out to the jury. So the victims's families could be prepared. But I don't think there is ever any way to prepare the families of Libby, Liberty and Abby for what they are about to see the girl's throats slashed. Yeah, I agree. I mean, it's this is a it's brutal for families. What you have to do as a prosecutor, though, is it's all about

maintaining the integrity of the process. You don't want that to become a sideshow. And the jury doesn't miss that. So the family members that can't handle it, you've got to have them sit outside because you don't want that to be distracting. You want this jury to make the call based on the evidence and the law. And above all else, you want to make sure that you're avoiding appellate issues at every step because the case is so horrific. And the only thing worse than going through something like this as a family is having to go through this whole process only to do it again because the case gets reversed because of some sort of error. To Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of the hit new series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, thank you for being with us. One of the last times

that you and I dealt with a decapitation or near decapitation that actually went to the jury was the case of, of course, Nicole Brown Simpson, murdered by former husband, football star, Orenthal James Simpson. The degree of blood from a near decapitation or decapitation is overwhelming. What does that mean? That means it will be very difficult to determine if the defendant's blood is somewhere in there. And of course, Joe Scott, in one of his many, many, many confessions, Richard Allen blurted out something to an inmate that nobody else knew that he had performed the murders with a box cutter. What does that mean to you forensically? Well, in order to, well, let's just think about the dynamics of a box cutter, the dimensions of it. It's a very shallow blade. It doesn't go very

deep. So what does that mean? Well, we've got people throwing around terms like decapitation. Nancy, let me just say this plainly. If we're talking about decapitation with a box cutter, this would have taken a protracted period of time. This is not like using a knife, a hunting knife, for instance, that has a long leading edge. And now, granted, they're sharp, but it would take a protracted period of time. And, you know, I'm more curious right now to hear what the forensic pathologist will say. And that's going to be a big tell here to give the dimensions of this injury. But I can say this, it would have been a very bloody affair. And the fact that this individual of blood from the jugular vein from any, any artery is going to be immense.

And my point is, before we get into the actual forensics of that, what this family, what these families are witnessing in court and what that does to them. It would take wild horses to drag them out of the courtroom. So far, they have steeled themselves. Joining me now from the courthouse, Susan Hendricks, investigative reporter, author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Susan, please explain who is Jake Johns and what's his testimony over the weekend to the jury. He is the gentleman, the volunteer who found the clothes of Abby and Libby. And his testimony was during that volunteer search. Again, the search was called off the night before, but volunteers came in the next morning when they started to search early and the bodies were discovered a little bit after noon,

he found clothes, Libby's sneakers, her top. What we have learned through all of this testimony and a hearing at the end of July was the cause of death. And Nick McLeelan mentioned that in the opening statement that Libby had been completely nude, blood all over her, her neck slashed sadly, Abby as well. And Abby was in the clothing of libby put that clothes her clothes on libby's clothes was ordered to before she was brutally murdered crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Four other girls also saw the man on the bridge that day and described him as kind of creepy. Witness statements, there is a lot of similarity in what the witnesses said and they seem to have seen a man. And a woman says she later saw the man in the bridge video.

He was muddy and bloody, she said. Now, you just heard the killer state guys down the hill. He had to have pulled a gun on the girls. The girls then go down the hill and they actually had the wherewithal to take the video of the man approaching him. Something about him made the hair on the back of their neck stand up and they started videoing him right there. The girls themselves did this and they caught his voice saying down the hill. Cheryl McCollum, I'm predicting it'll be a cold day in H-E-double-L before Richard Allen utters one word in the courtroom because the jury can hear just like you and I can and compare it to Down the Hill, Down the Hill, Down the Hill, that loop of Down the Hill that

prosecutors made. A hundred percent. Nancy, the other thing about that video, you show the man on the bridge dressed for freezing weather. He is layered in a like a sweatshirt and then a jacket. Remember, it was unseasonably warm. Even Abby is in a tank top. So he is dressed not for hiking. He is layered. And I think, again, when you look at the way that he is dressed, you look at the way that the person sounds on that recording, that person is calm. That person is in control. He is in charge. There's no way co-workers, friends, neighbors, folks from high school and his family don't recognize his gait, his pace of walking and that voice. Let me go straight back out to Susan Hendricks joining us at the courthouse. You told me about Jake Johns, the volunteer, and all these volunteers were

working through the night with the family. Police, law enforcement had called off the search, but they, the family and volunteers went back with lights, went out on canoes in the night, all the way through the night looking for the girls. But Susan Hendricks, who is Patrick Brown? Patrick Brown is the volunteer who discovered the bodies. And he said that he walked up, but at first he wasn't quite sure of what he was seeing. And he took off his glasses, kind of tearing up, and said, I thought they were manic. Oh, Dr. Bethany Marshall joining me.

We're now psychoanalysts joining us out of Beverly Hills, author of Deal Breaker. And you can see her on Peacock or find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, thank you for being with us. You know, that has, I've heard that response to, from many witnesses who discover bodies. For instance, Connor Peterson, baby Connor, Lacey Peterson's little baby who died when his mother was murdered. His body after her uterus disintegrated underwater. His body just kind of floated out. It was completely pristine, like a little, one of those little plastic baby dolls. They're kind of shiny that you see the little naked baby dolls. And the witness

that found the body thought it was a mannequin, a baby doll. Could that be, or are you just so conditioned not to expect to find a dead body that your mind goes to a mannequin. Like this witness said, the jury's hearing from Patrick Brown. He was searching for the girls. And then he sees the girls, one completely naked, but he instead thinks they're mannequins. Nancy, our brains are not wired to see a scene like this and to immediately comprehend what it is. Just like being in an accident. Let's say you're walking across the street, a car starts hurtling towards

you. Your first thought will be, that car's not really hurtling towards me. There's like a disavowal of the reality of the situation. But sadly, Nancy, when I heard the term mannequins, I thought about the sexually motivated nature of this crime and how he used those girls like dolls. When he says down the hill, down the hill, down the hill, I hear a menacing, power hungry, horrible little man whose only way to have control and authority in life is to take a 13 and a 14 year old. And Nancy, you know, these crimes are sexually motivated. So what I wondered was, did he slit their throats to subdue them so he could anally and vaginally rape them or masturbate on them or do whatever he wanted with them, toy with them? Or did he torture and toy with them and then slit their throats so that he couldn't ID them? The idea that Libby's clothing

was found on Abby suggests a prolonged period of playing with them and toying with them, which breaks my heart that these two children had to experience something like that. Speaking of what they were wearing, the state did not have to rely upon recollection. One of the last photos of these two girls was, of course, remember they're 13 and 14, a Snapchat photo. Snapchat photos Libby took on February 13, 2017, show Abby sitting in the backseat of Libby's sister, Kelsey Siebert's car, in route to the trailhead earlier that afternoon. Abby wore a gray zip-up hoodie, blue jeans, and a messy bun. Libby wore a tie-dyed shirt. The other photo Libby took that day showed Abby stepping from one wooden

railroad tie to another on the high bridge. Cheryl McCollum, one witness, states that was Jake Johns, one of the first witnesses, not the first witness, but one of the first witnesses, describes how he found the clothing, the clothing we just heard about that was in the Snapchat they took of each other. You're familiar with Snapchat. It is the thing and it has to be done quickly. There's no message to it. It's just a photo. Instead of texting somebody, you have a Snapchat group or people that you chat back and forth with. And all you do is you send a picture. It's just a picture in that moment. And that's what they did. Now, that's how we know for sure what they were wearing. Cheryl McCollum, we know that Jake Johns

described finding the shirt up in a tree. Nancy, this is a trail. This is a clue as to what went on after he forced them down the hill. So when they are being disrobed and the clothing is found in a tree and a shoe is found in the creek, this is leading you to the homicide scene. So this to me, pinpoints and paints a picture of exactly what happened and the order that it happened. This is what he's testifying to. But why up in a tree, Cheryl? He possibly could have been hiding it, thinking he could discard it where nobody would see it.

Who knows what's going through his head? But Nancy, again, it's telling you this happened at this exact location. The bodies are then found at this exact location. So again, it's like these breadcrumbs to this horrible event, from the shoe to the shirt to the bodies. You know what is happening and exactly where it's happening. That's what's important to me. To you, Jessica Morgan, that the shirt we've been talking about was up in a tree. Why was it in a tree?

Look, is it probative? No. I'm not proving anything with this, but I want to know. Why was it in a tree? Was he taking the clothes and just throwing them? What's your theory? I'd like to know how high up in the tree it is. You know, if you're talking about discarding something, you know, accessibility, that sort of thing. And as Cheryl pointed out just a second ago about the creek, Deer Creek, I think it's called the shoe that was in there why not discard everything

in that area first off you're going to wash away any kind of well most forensic evidence perhaps and also if it's got a flow to it it's going to take it downstream from where the initial event perhaps happened so uh it's a curious finding again, I'd have to know physical relationship to the height of it. Is it something that he was attempting to sequester? Here's one other piece to this. I've often wondered, you know, going back to, you know, say, for instance, him working at CVS and look at these photographs. This guy's got a rich fantasy life. I'm wondering, was he a trophy taker as well? And seems like clothing, he has something to do with clothing, taking time to dress and undress bodies, this sort of thing. Why would you not retain that for your own recollections like a lot of these guys do? It is certainly, I think it is rather probative, Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. These two precious souls who were taken, I'll say it plainly, we're talking about perhaps to the point of a partial decapitation here, Nancy.

And they never thought they would hear that the girls were murdered. You're talking about Delphi, Indiana. A child murder. It's never happened. A poignant detail that the family told me is that morning before the girls left, the grandma was worried that it might get too chilly. That was her concern. She thought that I would only be gone an hour and a half.

And she kept telling the girls, wear a coat, put on a hoodie. That was the fear. The trial is happening now, today, in a court of law. Straight back out to Susan Hendricks, investigative reporter, joining us at the courthouse. Susan, how does the defendant look? He looked so much different, Nancy, than he did, of course, in the in his jailhouse orange clothes. He was in street clothes, khaki pants, a belt, kind of a linen looking shirt, a light shirt with glasses, reading glasses on his head. He looked more healthy than he had since I've seen him and looked more just engaged, if you will. And I saw that even during jury selection, where he was involved

and his attorneys were leaning over Richard Allen, and he was pointing to kind of which jurors. It was a team kind of, they worked as a team with Richard Allen to decide who they should pick. I noticed that, and absolutely he looks so much different than he had even during the hearing. What I saw at the end of July, beginning of August, of course, the deputy is very close, arms and handcuffs. Deputies are even in plain clothes behind him. So it's, of course, not to prejudice the jury and seeing Mr. Allen in a jailhouse orange, but it is much different. I think he looks better too.

Wow, Susan Hendricks. Okay, really? Reading glasses? I will never forget with the Menendez brothers how the female defense attorney would like pick lint off them and hug them, smooth down their sweaters. I'm like, okay, whatever. But we're seeing the same thing happening now, Cheryl McCollum, the fawning over Richard Allen in front of the jury. The jury's going to know it's a stunt. They knew when they saw him in that wheelchair, when he couldn't walk and he was emaciated, it was a stunt. They know that saying that there was a hair found that didn't match him before the trial started was a stunt. This jury is not stupid.

They are going to understand exactly what's going on. They are going to look at the evidence and evidence only and render an appropriate verdict. I believe that. Well, we also see the state is preparing the jury for a lack of DNA. Susan Hendricks joining us at the courthouse. What about it, Susan? But Cleland said, how many of you have seen CSI and people raise their hand? And how many of you think you need to have DNA evidence for a crime to have taken place to find someone guilty? Who believes that you need DNA evidence? So to me, it was very clear they just don't have that. The bullet is the key

piece of evidence, they say. And of course, the confession, 60 plus confessions were mentioned of Richard Allen saying to the jurors and during opening statements that they will hear Richard Allen in his own words tell what happened that day, not only why he did it, but how we did it. Oh, I can't wait to hear that, Susan Hendricks. Now, we already know. Let me go straight back to Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University. And then I'll follow up with you, Cheryl McCollum, a box cutter. is interesting. Remember how we railed about law enforcement not releasing what we thought were enough facts to get more tips from the public? Well, in a way, the facts that they did withhold, it was very, very wise because we apparently have Richard Allen talking about murders were conducted with a box cutter, which was then disposed, he also said, in a dumpster. I think a CVS dumpster, which would have been an area

familiar to him because he was a pharmacy tech, right? Now, can you, as a death investigator, determine if a box cutter was used any way to do that? Yeah, and I think that it's going to be relied upon our friends that work in the tool mark section, which I know you're familiar with at Crime Labs. We might hear evidence from them. It all depends on, and forgive me for being rather gruesome, if that instrument struck bone in particular, we're talking about they keep using the term near decapitation. Is that possible to make that connection? I guess kind of peripherally, it could be. You could say that this could be consistent with a mark left by a box cutter. It's got a thinner blade than, say,

perhaps, I don't know, like a K-bar knife, for instance. It's not as robust. So, yeah, you could have an indication of that. And also, what you're going to be looking at, and this is how these beautiful young girls are going to testify on their behalf in this trial. We're going to hear about these injuries, and we're going to hear about a presence or absence of hemorrhages in these wounds that they have sustained to their neck. And they're going to paint a picture, Nancy, that is going to leave all this other stuff in the dust, trust me, whether it's odinism or Thor or all this other nonsense that they keep coming up with. We're going to hear the real scientific facts. And that box cutter is going to be a big part of this. Guys, testimony pouring from the witness stand, the jury working over the weekend.

But then here is the problem, the fly in the ointment, so to speak, for the state. A mystery hair. Listen. During opening statements, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin says some hair evidence is not tied to the defendant, Richard Allen. During autopsy, a hair is found in Abby Williams' hand.

That hair has a root and is able to be tested. And the tests showed the hair belonged to a female, not to Abby or Libby, but probably from a relative of Libby's. Baldwin says there should be more tests to find out whose hair it was. Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert

who has been at the courthouse and in Delphi throughout this investigation. Cheryl McCollum, when you first hear a mystery hair, it's like, oh, could it be the killer's hair? And if it doesn't match up to Richard Allen, that could equal reasonable doubt. But the rest of that sentence is it belongs to a female relative of the victims, which you would absolutely expect to find on them through some sort of a transfer. I don't know how. Maybe her hand touched her body. Maybe on the ride over, she was sitting in the car with her hands on the seat and there was a hair there and it stuck to her body or her clothing. So now we know it's a female relative. You know what this

reminds me of? This reminds me of the hair found in top mom Casey Anthony's trunk, the trunk from which the odor of a dead body emanated, top mom's own mother, Cindy Anthony, stated that in the 911 call. Right. Then the hair was found in the trunk and it could have been one of three people, Cindy Anthony, top mom Casey Anthony or baby Kelly Anthony. But Cindy and Totmom had chemically treated hair, dyed and or frosted. This hair was pristine, which proves that the baby Kelly Anthony had been in that trunk from which the odor of a dead body emanated. So in my mind, in this case, that mystery here is much ado about nothing. It's completely nothing. Here's the bottom line.

Thanks to Libby, we got a video. There's no woman on that bridge. There's no female voice on that tape. And I'm going to tell you, the biggest thing to me that is going to come very soon are the other 43 seconds on that videotape. Prosecutor McLeelan says there is more than just bullet evidence that ties Richard Allen to the murders of Abby and Libby. Richard Allen himself. In statements to correctional officers, inmates, law enforcement, even his wife. Allen tells them things with details that only the killer would know.

McLeelan says Richard Allen followed Abby and Libby to the Monon High Bridge and that Allen is, quote, the man on the bridge. Joining us at the courthouse, investigative reporter and author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi, Susan Hendricks. We have a surprise. What is it? Nick McLean, the prosecutor, said that Richard Allen was interrupted, that he brought the girls and led them down that hill, planned on having his way with them, as he said, and was interrupted. And to me, that stood out. We had never heard that before. And I wonder what will come into play during the trial. Was Richard Allen interrupted by some sort of vehicle driving by? We don't know that. And we will hear that during the trial. Now, why would the prosecutor, I'm wondering about it, Susan Hendricks, believe that Richard Allen was interrupted in the murders of these two girls?

Cheryl McCollum, what do you think? I think there was possibly items at the scene that were not used. I think that the lack of DNA, possibly seminal fluid, things of that nature would cause them to believe this is clearly a sexual crime that looks as though it was not completed. I'm very curious because so far we haven't heard about DNA linking, linking him to the scene and sperm would absolutely be that link. Matthew Matt Murphy, a renowned and veteran trial attorney. Matt, as part of discovery, all scientific evidence must be handed over to the defense X number, usually 10 days, but in this case, it's been months prior to trial. And in those scientific reports, that is where we would learn if DNA links back

to Richard Allen in any way. Isn't that true? That's right. And it sounds based on the Vort Dyer, which is the jury selection. It sounds like they don't have that, but it's important to remember, Nancy, in this case, he had a lot of time here. one of them of course was found naked the other one wearing the the opposite young young lady's clothes so he had time to do this which means he also had time to clean up and one of the fascinating things i think about a lot of the the modern cases we're seeing this with gilgo beach with rex huerman is that if they're given time um they're you know you can get rid of DNA. And he certainly had time here. So there is a reasonable explanation. And plus, remember,

given what happened to them, we have a complete absence of DNA. So the logical conclusion, the argument is, well, nobody killed them then, right? So it's one of those things the jury just has to think through. And as long as it's, I think, effectively argued, it's going to be fine. Or at least it should be. I believe the evidence against this man is overwhelming, if properly presented. Well, the defense is certainly making a foray and they're arguing about the timeline. One thing that's going to be very difficult for them to counter are the alleged confessions. This guy blabbed behind bars.

Listen. After discovering over 60 recorded confessions by the accused killer in jail phone calls to his wife and mother. McLeelan believes over a year ago, Allen began speaking about the murders in very specific detail with a fellow inmate even testifies that Allen revealed to him that he killed the girls with a box cutter which Allen later disposed of in a CBS dumpster. I mean you'd think by now Dr. Bethany Marshall that lawyers would tell their clients don't reveal anything over the phone. I've even had cases where recorders were set up in the walls of a jail, not my jurisdiction. But when you're in jail, that doesn't matter. You do not have any expectation of privacy. You don't need a search warrant to put in a tapping device,

like at a grave or hanging outside someone's apartment on the fire escape. You can put a tape recording device there just like you can in a jail. So why is it when you know Richard Allen has been told, shut the hay up, keep your lips together, he's still talking and all of those calls are recorded, Bethany? Well, obviously the defense has lost control of their client. But what it tells me, a couple of things. He's impulsive. He's profoundly immature. He wants to keep retelling the story because he's changing the narrative again and again to try to justify why he did it. But also, he's reliving the glory of the crime. I mean, if you think about the

fact that likely this is sexually motivated, he's in jail, he has no access to sex partners. I mean, his fantasy life is probably prolific. And this is probably how he got attached to the girls in the first place, looking at all those photos and at their clothing and sort of developing a fantasy relationship with them. And the only way to continue that, talk about the crime. Speaking about reasonable doubt, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin says Richard Allen is an innocent man ensnared in an investigation that he says was messed up from the beginning. Challenging the state's timeline, Baldwin says Abby's phone connected to a cell phone tower after Allen had left the trail on February 13, 2017, claiming after 4 p.m. human hands handled that phone.

Richard Allen was at home and never came back. To you, Cheryl McCollum, who has been at the courthouse and in the area since the investigation started. Cheryl, what is the defense? Is it based on cell phone data placing Richard Allen elsewhere by 215? That's what they're going to try to show, Nancy. But again, if you look at the totality, that's one aspect. You've got confessions. You've got himself at the bridge. You've got the bullet. You've got the video. You've got the voice. You've got the fact that to me, you've got somebody that parks away. His car was seen.

He's dressed inappropriately for the day. You've got a totality of what occurred here. They are going to be able to paint a picture that he had information only the killer would know. There is no way with that video and that voice that his entire family, his entire friendship circle, every co-worker, nobody can identify him. I don't believe that. That's what's coming. Susan Hendricks joining us at the courthouse. Susan, I understand that people are lining up in the wee hours of the morning to get into the courthouse.

What's happening? Nancy, the interest in this case is clear, as you see with citizens lining up. People want to know, being part, of course, of Carroll County, and it's being held here in Carroll County, jurors selected outside of this county. And really, you could see the interest. People want to know. I mean, the hearts are in this. There's teal and purple ribbons all around downtown Delphi aligning the streets here.

And people want closure for this. The girls are never coming back, of course, but they want to be part of this because their hearts have been in it from the start. Susan Hendricks at the courthouse. I'm just thinking about the family who has been in court all day long, listening to excruciating testimony, seeing horrific crime scene photos of the girls nearly decapitated. And it reminds me of what Becky Patty told me when I spoke to her, how she could not even ask. When she was told, she was out searching, when she was told they found the girls, she would not let herself ask, are they dead or alive? Listen. Did you ask any questions?

Did you think they were alive? Oh, I jumped in a car and... Did you think they were alive? They wouldn't... Did you think they were alive? They wouldn't... Did you ask them? I went tell them, I just asked them to take me to them. I said they found them. I wasn't even asking how they found them.

I just said, Libby needs me. You need to take me to her now. Unable to even ask, are the girls dead or alive? And this whole day, they've been sitting through those horrific crime scene photos and testimony. We wait and pray as justice unfolds live at the courthouse. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.