Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - The Only Witness: A History of the Shroud of Turin

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

For many years the debate has raged, is the Shroud of Turin really the burial cloth of Christ or is it a hoax?  Nancy Grace sits down with dear friend and author, Guy Powell, to discuss his new book "The Only Witness: A History of the Shroud of Turin."   The book is historical fiction, a depiction of how the Shroud made its way to its current resting place in the  Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. Powell gives a brief overview of the testing and research done on this treasured Christian relic to determine its authenticity and lets us inside his motivation behind writing the compelling historical fiction.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, thank you for being with me. I know this is a departure from our usual analysis of murder trials and high stakes games lawyers play in court, criminal investigations. I want to talk to you about an investigation of a different sort. I want to talk to you about the truth of The Shroud of Turin. And I'll tell you why.

Because today, a phenomenal book has hit the market. I already got up this morning and got it on Amazon in Kindle form. It's called The Only Witness. And I want to show you the picture of the front of it. The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin. And it is written by a friend and colleague, Guy Powell. I have known Guy for many, many years through our Sunday School class that he led for years. And when I heard he was writing this book,

I was so happy because when I first heard, learned about the Shroud of Turin, as a Christian, or try to be a Christian, a seeker, I'm more of a seeker of Christ. I was so thrilled. And it was many, many years ago that I learned about the Shroud of Turin. And then there were the debunkers.

And I've got to tell you, I almost wished I hadn't heard what they said because I wanted very much to believe that the Shroud of Turin was real. Whether it is or isn't changes nothing about the resurrection. Now, apparently, the debunkers have been debunked. What is the truth? With me is Guy Powell, author of The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin. Guy, I'm so happy to get to speak to you.

Thank you so much, Nancy. And I really like your introduction because back in 1978 is when I really first learned about it. There was a, I can't remember if it was a Time or a Life magazine article. And I said, wow, what's that? I'd never heard of that. And that then kind of got me interested in it. And then when you talk about the debunkers, that was 1988 when a handful of scientists

and laboratories did some radiocarbon testing on it. And they came out at the end and said that the shroud dates from 1260 to 1390. And then at that moment, I heard that and I said, oh my God, it's fake. Whoa, wait just a minute, Guy Powell. We don't say OMG on NG. Ah, okay. Thank you.

So, in any case, they said the shroud is fake. They said they flogged it. They faked it. Oh, wait. Just stop right there. Have you ever seen those movies where there's like an evangelical pastor, and you can't see me, but I'm using air quotas when I say pastor, and they're healing people and they turn out to be a big fraud? Or when you hear about a pastor or a preacher that has like cheated on his wife,

and I say he has, there are female pastors. In fact, our church is about to get a female pastor. They cheat on the wife and with all these ladies. I remember a case I covered at Court TV. It was the case of Rabbi Fred Nylander. And he was a renowned rabbi. I believe he was in, hey, Sid, could you look up? I think he was in Cherry Hill, anywhere somewhere really rich, where all the rich people are. And this very, very tony synagogue.

Cheating, cheating, Cherry Hill, okay, yeah. And I'm getting there. Wait a minute. You know how I go off in tangents sometimes. So, he killed his wife. Long story short. And, I remember listening to his son speaking. You know, when something to do with our Judeo-Christian heritage is debunked, or they take a chink in the armor.

I just feel like it's fodder for naysayers. And when I heard the Shroud of Turin was a fake, I'm like, oh, that's a black eye. That's another black eye for us. I mean, so I was very, I was disappointed when I heard that. You know, just as with anything to do with our beliefs. Even when our government, for Pete's sake, when you find out that there has been some sort of wrongdoing in the highest arena within our government, it's a kick in the teeth. When I hear about a cop, a dirty cop coming from L.A., law enforcement, I take it really personally. So this means a lot to me, Guy.

Now, you're saying that when you heard about the Shroud of Turin back in the 70s. Okay. Pick it up from there. Yes, exactly. So there was a group of scientists that went over, and their primary purpose was to determine what made that image on there. And the team was made up of religious folks, so Protestants and Catholics that had a couple of Jews on there. And the team was made up of religious folks, so Protestants and Catholics. It had a couple of Jews on there, and it had a couple of atheists. And when they got done studying the shroud of 120 consecutive hours over five days straight, all of them came back,

and they said, this is not a painting. It has not dyed. It is not stained. It is something that they have never seen before, that it is not probably or most likely not created by the hands of man. And that was kind of their conclusion. Now, let me understand. So this is the group that debunked the debunkers. Well, this is the group that debunked the debunkers well this is actually no this is actually before that and one of the tests that they wanted to run at that time and they weren't allowed to uh was a radiocarbon dating and the problem with the radiocarbon dating

like carbon 14 is that what you're saying carbon carbon-14? That's exactly right. Radiocarbon dating using carbon-14. And the problem with that is that it is a destructive test. So you have to take a sample out of the shroud. You have to cut a sample out of the shroud. And it's like, you know, if this is truly the relic that is the burial clock of Jesus Christ, you don't want to touch it, and you don't want to cut anything out of it. And so it took another 10 years in 1988 when samples were actually cut under a lot of scrutiny, but also cut incorrectly where they took those samples from was not the agreed on places. And so they did the testing and as i

mentioned before the results of that testing were that the date of the shroud according to that test was 1260 to 1390 it's very difficult from my scientific background i deal with dna data hard DNA data, hard data every day. It's very hard for me to reject carbon-14 dating. Exactly, exactly. And so for probably 20 years, the research on the Shroud kind of fell apart. And, you know, everything went dark. There wasn't really much done. There was a lot of, you know, a lot of depression about the, you know, hey, what are we doing now? It's fake. And yet we don't know how that image was made. This wonderful image of this man that clearly

suffered was crucified. And then this cloth somehow picked up an image of that. And then it was only recently, and I don't remember exactly the date now, that the raw data that went into the carbon-14 testing, that the raw data was made public. And it was made public by the British Museum only at the urging and the constant urging by a handful of people, and in particular one, Tristan Costa Bianca. And he got the data and found out that they had flogged it. They had flogged the data that they used, and there's some statistical tests that are done, and without getting into the details of that they perfect well it is believed that they purposefully flogged the data using their word and they did not follow the statistical um rigor that would need to be done on the results that they got and yet they published

it anyway and it's now as that now is becoming coming to light and you know here over the last few years that now this debunker these three debunkers these labs have now been debunked and that's one test that they did is wrong Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So, the debunkers come in. They see 14, carbon 14, the Shroud of Turin. And they say that the Shroud was created. I believe you said what, the 1800, when did you say? 1260.

1260. 1260 to 1390. Yes. Okay. And it's very, very difficult for me to reject. Well, I cannot reject the carbon 14 test test because I know it to be true. You are now telling me, Guy, that the data used in the carbon-14 test was intentionally skewed

to prove falsely the Shroud of Turin was a fake. Yes, exactly. So one of the things when you get, so what happens is that the carbon-14 test and the results from their test on the samples, and that's a critical word, on the samples that they took are most likely correct. That the date of those samples actually range from somewhere between 1260 to 1390. The problem is twofold.

The first one is, where did they take those samples from on the shroud, number one. Normally, what you would do is if you really, really wanted to do a pure scientific test, you would take a sample from one corner, from the middle, from the edge, another corner, you would take them all around the whole cloth. You would not take them from exactly the same place. The second thing is because they didn't do that, and that was the agreed on approach, and then all of a sudden they decided not to do that, they took it from one spot. Well, the spot that they took it from had potentially two things wrong with it. over the last two millennia, that is where the shroud was held by the bishops and the senior church hierarchy

when they actually wanted to display it to the public. So the grime on your hands, the oil on your hands would contaminate and probably contaminate at that spot. You just said something I can connect to. Contaminate, like contaminated DNA DNA so what I think you're saying and of course I'm a JD I'm no scientist is that of course it is not the carbon-14 method that is in question because it simply is not just like evolution is not in question. That's the way it happened.

Now, how you want to look at evolution through the filter of Adam and Eve, that's a whole other can of worms. But carbon-14 testing is that the linen itself is very, very polluted, contaminated by, for instance, where it was kept, how it was handled over all those years. Is that what you're saying? So the carbon-14 testing and pristine laboratory conditions would have been fine, but that the object, the shroud itself, was polluted? That is, and there's two or three areas, but yes, that's the first one. Weren't traces of fungus and calcium carbonate found uh that's a different thing but yes there were traces of uh calcium carbonate and uh and other other dust that is only found in jerusalem and isn't it true that certain areas of the shroud were darned in other words repaired later on and yes absolutely and that's been the second dimension of why potentially the carbon dating was wrong in that that area where the shroud is held hundreds and maybe

thousands of times is that that area where they took that sample not only may have been contaminated, but may have been repaired with modern material. Wow. You know, Guy, I remember when I heard, I read that the Shroud of Turin was a fake. I remember that moment. Like, I remember where I was exactly when I found out Elvis Presley was killed. Or that, you know, that the war in Ukraine had started. Just the O.J. verdict. Or just the O.J. Simpson verdict. So many moments in time you never forget. And I remember immediately running to David, to whom I'm now married, and saying,

the Shroud of Turin is fake. And I was upset. Although I have absolutely no connection to the Shroud of Turin at all. And in my mind, whether it's real or not real, has no bearing on the truth of Christ's teachings. Correct. Absolutely. I've got to ask you something, Guy. What led you to write The Only Witness, A History of

the Shroud of Turin? Well, it's kind of funny. So we had the 78 research. We had the 1988 debunking. And then about, I don't know, 15, 20 years later, my brother sent me a book on the Shroud of Turin, and it was called The Blood and the Shroud, The Blood and the Shroud by Ian Wilson. And I remember reading it, and it's a history book. And it's basically on 1356 this happened, and on 1357 this happened,

and on 1358 this happened. And I go, there is no way. That sounds terrible. No way that, exactly, no way that anybody. You lost me on 1358. Exactly. So then I said, you know what would be interesting? And I remember it very distinctly. You lost me on 1358. Exactly. So then I said, you know what would be interesting?

And I remember it very distinctly. It says, somebody ought to write this as a historical fiction. And that's exactly what I did. And that's what the impetus for me was. I took all of those facts, you know, as they were laid out by Ian Wilson and many others, of course. And I said, you know, so how could we tell a story about something that is this significant and tell a story that other people would read and be able to then consume it and read themselves as to whether the shroud is authentic or not. And that was really the genesis of me writing that book. And I remember with that weekend, when I read that, I said, I'm going to write the first chapter. And I wrote the first chapter. And then it was 20 years before I actually started to really write it.

I had always wanted to write it. And then it was COVID. And I remember sitting here and I said, I need to finish that book. And I picked up what I had written and I started writing. And that's been where the, the, the book came from. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

Guys, for those of you just joining us, I'm talking to a friend and colleague and also an Amazon number one bestseller of another book, completely different topic, has written the only witness, a history of the Shroud of Turin. Guy Powell is with me. And, you know, guys, there are some people in the world that

you take everything they say with a box of salt, as I like to say, not a grain of salt, but a box of salt. Guy Powell is someone you would seek out for an opinion or advice or the true facts. And hearing you speak about your book, I mean, I got it this morning. Have you voiced it yet? Have you got an audio yet? I'm in the process of trying to figure that out. I need it in an audio. So when I go jog, ha ha, or walk,

I can listen to it. But yes, I got it on Kindle this morning. So it struck you after reading one kind of a historical view of the shroud to write your own. First of all, what is a burial shroud? A lot of people are not familiar with a burial shroud. Yeah, exactly. So a shroud is a burial cloth. So it's a cloth that would be wrapped around somebody that had just died, and then you would be, certainly at the time of Christ, then you would wrap the body in this piece of cloth, and then you would bury that person in the tomb.

And there's a couple of different pieces that might take place. The one is the cloth, the single piece of cloth that wraps from the back of the feet all the way up to the back of the head, over the face, and then down to the front of the feet. And that's what the Shroud of Turin is. And then possibly and very probably, then there was another strip, a strip of linen that is wrapped around the body to hold that piece of cloth on the body, you know, just to make sure that it just stays there and stays together. And so there's a couple of different mentions of that in the Book of John, of course, these linens and the strips of linens. And so that's where those two things come from. And this is then believed to be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

In other words, this cloth, according to many believers, was there in the tomb a silent witness to the resurrection? Exactly. It is, and that's then where the title came from, it is the only witness. So it was there during that moment of resurrection. So that's then believed to be what caused that image to be imprinted onto that cloth. And then the book, of course, is the only witness. It's a history. It's not the history.

Nobody knows what the history is. But it's a history, a plausible history of the Shroud of Turin as it progressed then from that day on Golgotha and then in the tomb and then all the way up to where it is today in Turin, Italy. So was it thrown away and recovered? Was it revered as one of the most important relics in human existence. Guy takes facts and hypotheses to write a history of this cloth, this burial cloth of Christ, as it travels from Golgotha, where Christ was crucified in Jerusalem, through the Roman Empire, through Byzantium, through Europe, and how this cloth protected for centuries lands in Turin, surviving fire, war, plague, floods, to become, for instance, the Bible or the Torah, which is our Old Testament, even survived, but particularly the New Testament.

Because after Christ's crucifixion, Christians were, of course, persecuted. And it was more important to them to keep the faith. They would leave their homes, go live in caves, rather than denounce what they believed to be the truth. And it strikes me now, Guy, how blessed we are to be able to even talk about the Shroud of Turin, or the Bible, or the Torah. How they survived over all the years and were not destroyed. To me, that is a miracle in itself. But, you know, guy, there are countries

all around the world where Christians and others are persecuted, jailed, killed, even now because of their beliefs. And you and I can just take to the airwaves and talk about, is the Shroud of Turin real or is it a fake? It's how blessed are we? Yes, you are so right.

When I think about those early Christians, the apostles and then the early converts, and then the Romans destroying the temple in early the first century, and then persecuting the Christians for another couple hundred years, how hard was it for them to be a Christian? How hard was it for them to be a Christian? How hard was it? And nowadays, to your point here, we are talking about Christianity, talking about the Bible, talking about this miraculous, potentially miraculous relic, the Shroud of Turin.

We are truly, truly blessed. You know, Guy, I was just thinking about what I said at the beginning about seeking the teachings of Christ. Whenever I am in doubt, like Thomas, and I'd like to remind everyone, when Thomas doubted, Christ did not reprimand him or kick him out. He wooed him. He loved him anyway. Whenever I have feelings of doubt, I think about those early Christians who would rather die than renounce their faith, or the disciples. Do you remember Peter would not even agree to be crucified. He thought it was too similar to the way Christ was killed. So he insisted he be crucified upside down.

They would rather die than renounce. I hope and pray that you are correct, that the Shroud of Turin is real. I cannot reject science, but I have faith. I can't wait to finish. I just got started this morning. The only witness witness a history of the Shroud of Turin and how long did it take you to write the book guy well it was from start to finish when I really got into it it was three years three

years Wow guys where can everyone find it? The only witness, a history of the Shroud of Turin. Where can it be found? Well, definitely on Amazon. So today is the launch, the first availability of the book on Kindle. It'll be available shortly in print form on Amazon. It's available and it'll be available through any bookstore and certainly hope to have it available in different Christian bookstores. And then lastly, if you want to,

you can also get it from my site, guypowell.com. And there you can sign up for the book, also purchase the book and learn even more about The Shroud of Turin. This is a labor of love, and I really look forward to reading it. Guy Powell, thank you for being with us today. Nancy, thank you so much. I very much appreciate it.

Bye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.