Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - The Prosecution's Case for Christ

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

Christians around the world celebrate December 24th as Christmas Eve, the day before the Christ child is born. The birth of Jesus for many, however, remains an unsubstantiated myth, a story, despite ancient writing and artifacts, pointing to Jesus’s historical presence. Today on Crime Stories,  Nancy and her panel of experts investigate whether it is possible to prove that Jesus did walk the Earth. Joining Nancy Grace today: Guy Powell - Host: “The Backstory on the Shroud of Turin; Board member of STERA (The Shroud of Turin Education and Research Association), Board member of SEEC (The Shroud Educational Endeavous Corporation, President of ProRelevant; Author of “The Only Witness:  A history of the Shroud of Turin”; website: www.guypowell.com;  YouTube: Guy.R.Powell.ShroudofTurin; Facebook: AHistoryOfTheShroudOfTurin; IG: @guy.r.powell; TikTok: @guy.r.powell;  Dr. Robert “Bobby” Duke -  Chief Curatorial Officer and the Director of the Scholars Initiative at Museum of the Bible, Author of “Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary” and “The Social Location of the Visions of Amram”, website: www.museumofthebible.org, Facebook: MuseumofBible, Twitter: @museumofBible, Dr. J. Daniel “Danny” Hays - Professor of Biblical Studies Emeritus at Ouachita Baptist University, Author of “A Christian’s Guide to Evidence for the Bible: 101 Proofs from History and Archaeology” and “The ICHTHUS Christagram and Other Early Christian Symbols” and 15 other books; Twitter (X): @Haysdanny, Dr. Robert Van Voorst - Professor Emeritus of New Testament at Western Theological Seminary; Author “Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence”; Bishop Dr. LaDonna Osborn -  President and CEO of Osborn Ministries International, Author “God’s Big Picture”  website: www.Osborn.org, Facebook: Dr. LaDonna Osborn,  Billy Hallowell - TV Host at CBN News (Christian Broadcasting Network), Host of 2 podcasts: “Jesus and the Prophecies of Christmas” and “Quickstart”, Author of “Playing with Fire: A Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts,” and “The Armageddon Code: One Journalist’s Quest for End-Times Answers” and more. Website: www.billyhallowell.com, @BillyHallowell on all social platforms  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For many people around the world, this is one of the two most holy seasons of the year, Christmas and Easter. Without Easter, would Christmas even matter? And vice versa. Tonight, the prosecution's case for Christ. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us. A mystery buried in time. From ancient scrolls to unmarked tombs, what may archaeological evidence reveal of Jesus of Nazareth? Is he real? Was he real? When we enter into the Christmas season, we see Santa, we see Christmas trees in all different shapes and sizes.

We see the Grinch. Well, where does Christ fit into this scenario? It's so easy to ignore the fact that Christmas is named after Christ. But is it just a myth? Something we're told since we're little children and we're supposed to believe. I've conducted a very intense investigation, and tonight I make the case for Christ. With me, an all-star panel, but first I want to go out to a very special guest joining us. Billy Hollowell is joining us from New York,

host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network and host of two podcasts, Jesus and the Prophecies of Christmas and Quick Start. Wow. Okay. And author of Playing with Fire and on and on. You know what? Your resume is so long.

I don't have time for that. I've got to get to the case for Christ. First, I want to query. Have you noticed, Billy, that we are so predisposed to accept other historical facts, other historical writings? Let me see off the top of my head. Let me point to the Iliad and the Odyssey by Homer. Now, that detailed the Trojan War and the death of the Trojan King Hector, but yet we choose to believe

it's based in fact. I just happened to notice that the writings about Christ were contemporaneous with his life. Not Christian writings, but Jewish writings. Listen. Two of the most important works

of the Roman Jewish historian and military leader Flavius Josephus, are Jewish War, recounting the Jewish revolt against Roman occupation and antiquities of the Jews, that documents the history of the world from a Jewish perspective, and was written for a mostly Greek and Roman audience. Josephus' historical works provide an independent account of individuals mentioned in biblical texts, such as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, John the Baptist, as well as documenting that James was the brother of Jesus

of Nazareth and that Jesus was called the Christ. So these ancient writings, some around the time Christ lived, are very persuasive. What about it, Billy? Yeah, well, you know, some people will say that the Jesus reference is in dispute. So even if you move that to the side, what you just showed there, James, the brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ, that is a line that is not disputed, right? And so what I make of that is that you have people speaking at the very same time or very nearby the time of Jesus. And you have to add into that as well, all of the manuscripts. You mentioned, you know, we take things at face value that are hundreds of years old. When you look at the manuscripts

and Lee Strobel very astutely said this, you have 5,000 Greek New Testament fragments out there that back up precisely what we see in scripture. So the Bible is actually the most backed up literature that we have, ancient literature that we have. And people act as though that evidence isn't there when it very clearly is. I'm very curious why so many people choose to ignore, as I call it, evidence. You know, let me go to Bishop Dr. LaDonna Osborne. She's the president and CEO of Osborne Ministries. She's the author of God's Big Picture. And all of that aside, what impresses me the most about the bishop is she has ministered in over 100 nations among cultures completely different than her own and ministering to the the needy. Bishop, why are we so predisposed? Like if you read it in a New England medical journal,

then it's true. Okay. Or at least that's how I feel that that's got to be true. But with all of the historical writings about Christ that even occurred contemporaneously with his life, nobody, many people don't want to believe that. It's all just a big story. Why? Why are we like that? I think it's interesting also that people would rather be suspicious about something that is so proven. Of course, what you've said about my life is true, and I have been among people of every religion, every ideology, every way of worship or would be called faith. And what is so interesting is that the search within people for truth, for deity, for a cosmic presence, something that intrigues me. So there is something in humanity that is searching.

Now, when the subject of Jesus comes up, why there would be such resistance, I don't know, unless there is a spiritual dynamic. And this is where I would go, because my faith is based on the scripture, and I've given my whole life bringing what we call the good news of what Jesus Christ did for humanity to people who are hopeless, people who are sick, people who are really lost and depressed and in bondage of all kinds. I've seen more miracles of healing and deliverance than I could ever document. But the point is, I think there is a spiritual resistance to what is really the truth. Dr. Hayes, this issue, our human nature to doubt. And I believe that I've seen real miracles in life that could not be explained in any other way than a miracle. Yet, Thomas, who had lived with Christ for Pete's sake, had seen the miracles, had heard the, basically the heresy that Jesus was preaching, completely different from hundreds and hundreds of years

of tradition and ideology. He saw all that, yet he doubted. And I think that that was really intentional, Danny, because we all doubt. We all have that in our nature and And we see how Christ addressed it. Not by ridiculing Thomas, but by wooing him and continuing to love him. So, why is it, Danny, that we as humans choose not to believe really

hard evidence in the antiquities. Well, what I love about the Thomas episode is that what he doubts is the resurrection. So his other friends, the other apostles have seen the resurrected Jesus, but he hasn't. Well, the resurrection of the dead is kind of a big, you know, contrary to normal event. And so we can understand Thomas having some reservations about Jesus being resurrected from the dead. But you're absolutely right in how Jesus handles it. And almost with some irony, Jesus picks up the same terms of Thomas. You know, he says, only if I can touch, the nail scarred hands. And Jesus says, fine, Thomas, come and touch this, and then brings Thomas to faith

in that crucial event, the actual resurrection. So I think that story's in there for a purpose, just because we do have doubts. And you see all of the disciples stumbling at some point or another in their walk with Jesus, but he reaffirms them. But they come out strengthened because of the encounter. And I think Thomas walks away from that meeting of the Lord much stronger in his faith because he's actually seen the resurrected Christ and touched it. Joining us also in addition to Billy Hollowell and Bishop Osborne and Dr. Hayes is Dr. Robert Van Vorst. Dr. Van Vorst, professor emeritus, New Testament, Western Theological Seminary and author of Jesus Outside the New Testament, An Introduction into Ancient Evidence. Dr. Van Vorst, listen to this. In Book 18, Chapter 3 of Antiquities of the Jews, Flavius Josephus writes,

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. Josephus also describes how Jesus was condemned to the cross by Pontius Pilate and after his crucifixion appeared to his followers three days later. That is, Professor Van Horst, extremely probative in my mind. And you have to understand where I'm coming from. As a longtime felony prosecutor, I would never put anything in front of a jury

that I could not prove to a mathematical certainty such as two and two equals four. The I can never ask a jury. Look, I said it. So you just believe it. OK, just just trust me that that doesn't work. And in my world, that doesn't work. So I have been on a lifetime search for evidence to support the case for Christ. What do you think, Dr. Van Horst?

Well, I think that you're on the right track here, Nancy, that Josephus and a lot of other Jewish writings give us a good deal of evidence for saying that Jesus actually existed, that he worked miracles. Now, Jewish leaders of the time explained those miracles differently, but miracles, in a sense, they were. Well, didn't they believe that they were magic? Right, right, magic. Yeah, done by magic or with the cooperation of Satan. But that sort of assumes that those miracles are, in some sense, real. Jesus did, as Josephus says, wonderful things. Whether he confessed and actually believed himself that Jesus was the Christ, you know, that's sort of a statement that a Christian would make, and some historians have doubted that that is actually what he thought. But anyway, because in the other passages that he treats Jesus, he calls him the so-called Christ.

But anyway, we get a lot of good evidence that Jesus is real, yes. That Jesus started a movement, yes. That Jesus worked things that are wonderful, yes. And in a sense, Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God. So these beliefs... Wait, right there you did a little bit of a jump, Van Horst, because you went from ancient biblical writings, well no, ancient Jewish writings that state

clearly, and this is contemporaneous with Christ's life, that He did live, that He performed miracles which they attributed to either Satan or magic. So based on that, we know he lived. We know he lived where he said he lived at the time the Bible says he lived and that he performed miracles of a sort. We know all of that. And also in these writings, if we're to believe ancient artifacts, it's described how he was put to death after creating a movement. Listen. In his 20-volume history of the Jewish people, Flavius Josephus identifies the victim of an unlawful execution as James, the brother of Jesus who is called Messiah. Josephus

also describes a man who did surprising deeds and was condemned to be crucified by Pilate. In Annals of Imperial Rome, first century historian and Roman senator Tacitus also mentions Jesus' crucifixion, writing, Emperor Nero falsely blamed the persons commonly called Christians who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. A piece of cloth, a slab of stone, and the accounts of a crucifixion. Archaeologists and historians examine evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. Is he real? Could he possibly have risen from the dead? Well, what about this theory,

radical in some circles, that Christ had brothers and sisters? Listen. On October 21, 2002, the existence of the Oshuary of James, the brother of Jesus, was announced. It's a first-century limestone box that was used for containing the bones of the dead. The authenticity of the Ossuary, or bone box, of James is not in question, just the inscription engraved in Aramaic that when translated means, James, son of Joseph, his brother of Jesus. Two eminent paleographers specializing in dating, interpreting, and authenticating inscriptions determined the inscription was authentic.

Didn't matter. The Israeli Antiquities Authority charged Obed Golan, the owner of the ossuary, with forgery. The trial lasted seven years. Golan was acquitted and put the ossuary or the tomb or the box containing the remains of James, the brother of Christ, why is it so difficult for many people to believe that Mary, Mother Mary, had other children? Straight out to Billy Halliwell, what about it? Yeah, this is interesting because obviously Catholics and Protestants have very different ideas on this.

I'm an evangelical, so I've always grown up without any problem seeing Jesus as having had siblings. And in fact, I think a reading of Scripture in multiple areas, Matthew, Luke, Mark, it talks about Jesus's mother and brothers. And some will say, well, those brothers were, you know, cousins or they were close relatives. But that doesn't seem to be the case when you look at the original language. So I think it is interesting. I think it has to do with the vision of Mary as seeing Mary as pure, but there's nothing impure about getting married and having children. Right. And so after she had Jesus, you left out the sex part, Billy, you left out. I was actually going to get married and then suddenly there's a baby. Well, you know, it's interesting that you bring that up because in Matthew 1, you actually see Joseph.

He gets the message from the angel, right? And he goes and he takes Mary home as his wife, even though he could have not done that. I'm sure he was terrified and petrified and angry when he found out that she was with child. But it says in Matthew 1, 24 to 25, but he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And that son is Jesus. So you have that verse as well that definitely seems to indicate

that they had other children or they at least did consummate their marriage at some point. And I'd like to point out to Dr. Danny Hayes, that makes Mary an unwed mother. Okay. I find that fascinating because in our society, unwed mothers are frowned upon. They're looked down upon in a horrible way. Yet, if Christ is to be believed, which I do,

He is the product of an unwed mother. Now, I mean, how much more clearly could Christ speak to us? He's born to an unwed mother, to a carpenter. He becomes a carpenter, right? And of course, where he grew up, there were not a lot of trees. It's in the desert. So I don't know what carpenter really means. An odd job guy?

I don't know what that means. Then who does he pick for his followers? Uneducated men from the waterfront. That's who he picks. What could be more profound is starting a movement that survives centuries and centuries and centuries than coming to the world

like that, choosing those disciples, it really speaks to me that if Christ would pick an unwed mother and a group of uneducated men off the waterfront, then maybe there's hope for the rest of us that maybe we could fit in. Well, you're certainly right in that the birth of Jesus was surrounded with scandal and born of Mary with the scandals that would have come with that. And the humble beginnings and birth of Jesus, of course, were fulfilling those prophecies of Isaiah that proclaimed that this coming Messiah would not be born in a king's palace, but would be born with a humble origin. So we see that fulfilling the prophecies. His life as a carpenter, of course, taught him

lots of things. You know, while you're right about there not being a lot of trees, we suspect he was a stonemason. And growing up in Nazareth, it's not but a short walk to the big city of Sepphoris, which was under construction during that time. And Jesus and his dad, Joseph, probably walked down to Sepphoris every day and worked as stonemasons while that city was being constructed. So him growing up as a hardworking stonemason with humble origins, certainly he was a he was a Messiah and a Savior that came for all people in all situations. And never, never does the New Testament ever suggest some kind of elitism of the Christians who follow him. But it's a call for everybody, all walks of life, in all economic stratus are the ones who are called to follow him. And he certainly understands our pain and suffering in every situation.

You know, I want to go to Bishop Dr. LaDonna Osborne. Speaking of the existence of siblings, again, as a lowly Methodist, I don't have a problem with that at all. In fact, we are taught to believe that Christ is divine and human, and it would be absolutely human to have siblings. Now, my Catholic friends vehemently disagree with me, but it sounds like a real life Da Vinci Code scenario. Bishop Osborne, listen. There has long been a question about the siblings of Jesus. The New Testament clearly states Jesus had four brothers, James, Jude, Joseph, and Simon. Bishop Osborne, listen. temple and clubbed to death or stoned. Jude, Joseph, and Simon were all married and all became traveling evangelists. The sisters of Jesus are not named, nor is there any specific information

provided about them. Okay, so once again, the women just don't exist. But that said, this is what I'm talking about, a real life Da Vinci Code scenario. Listen. Is it possible that blood descendants of Jesus Christ's brothers and sisters exist today? Maybe. It depends on the denomination. Catholics, absolutely not. Other Christian denominations, maybe. Joseph was not Jesus' biological father, but Mary is his biological mother. Each of his blood brothers was a half-brother, and each of their children would have been a partial blood relative of Jesus. However, following the natural family tree, all humans come from Adam and Eve. And in that regard, we are all related. To Dr. Van Horst, what do you make of the recalcitrance to believe that Christ had brothers and sisters?

And if that is true, wouldn't there be evidence of their lives, much as we see in James' burial box? Right. We have evidence that Jesus did have brothers and sisters in Scripture and in archaeology. The much larger question about whether any of them, their descendants, still exist today, that would really take sort of a DNA test, and I'm sort of wondering how would that be done, and is it in fact provable, you know, if you're talking about physical descent. But I like the bishop's idea that in Christ, in faith, we are all brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, and that for us is probably the much bigger and more important religious question than sort of the Da Vinci Code mystery that some descendants of Mary could still be walking on the face of the earth. You know, the religious significance of that

pales in comparison with present faith in Jesus, which makes us brothers and sisters. Trout of Turin has been the source of argument and study since it was first on display in 1389. In 2022, researchers in Italy using a new dating technique known as wide-angle x-ray scattering indicated that the shroud was about 2,000 years old. The shroud is kept in a climate-controlled case in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy. The shroud is only rarely displayed. The last time was in 2015, but is expected to be on display in 2025 as part of a Jubilee 2025 Holy Year. Is Christ real? Many argue the Shroud of Turin offers proof that he is, while others say, no, it's a hoax. Joining me is Guy Powell, host of the Backstory on the Shroud of Turin and author of The Only Witness, A History of the Shroud of Turin. Guy, thank you for being with us. Tell me the pros and the cons

of the Shroud of Turin. Well, the pros are that it has an image on a cloth, and some would say it's miraculous for those of us that believe that the shroud is authentic. That image that you see there has a face. It has a body. It has the whip marks. It has the wounds in the hands and in the side, the side that Thomas put his fingers on. It has wounds in the feet. All of those wounds reflect the story that's found in the Gospels. And in particular, the one that's also in the Gospels that you don't see on other crucifixion historical evidence is the crown of thorns.

And that may be the one historical difference that really helps to prove, first of all, the Gospel stories, and then that the Shroud of Turin is real. Now, there are some skeptics, well, there's a lot of skeptics. There's been various different studies done, one on radioactivity and using radiocarbon dating. And this latest study that you mentioned, the WAXS, the Wide Area x-ray scattering, seems to prove with many, many, many other studies that the shroud is 2,000 years old, that there is blood on it, that it reflects the gospel story, and therefore is to a very high likelihood the authentic burial cloth of Jesus Christ. Okay. Yeah. I think a lot of people have the same question I did when I first learned about the shroud. How did Christ's image end up on the cloth? Yeah, that is a, that is, you know, one of the challenges that shroud authenticists have is,

and that's actually, I think, good news, is we have not been able, as scientists, been able to figure out what caused that image. And so that kind of says that the image is not a man-made image. There are no man-made techniques that can make that image the way it's found on the shroud. So therefore, is it a miraculous image? I personally believe it is. It is, to me, the only witness to the resurrection, the singular event that proves Christianity, that Christ was both man and God. And that image then, because it's miraculous, probably will never be proven by man that what caused it or how to recreate it. It's just a, it's an enigma that I don't think we'll be able to solve, at least not with current technology. And, but it definitely shows the divine,

potentially the divine nature and then the human nature that is Christ. Okay, Guy Powell, for those looking for evidence, I'm going to throw you a hard question. Let me put you on the cross-examination hot seat. Isn't it true that certain tests performed on the Shroud of Turin revealed, let me just refer to it as paint or paint-related objects that are not that old. Yes, that is correct. One of the things that happened over the Shroud's history was, well, one of the things, if you step back, if you touch a relic, whatever touches that becomes what's called a secondary

relic. And so what people would do is they would paint. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait a minute. What? To me it sounds like transfer DNA. Okay. Are you trying to say, and regular people talk? Okay. Remember we're making a case for Christ. I'm not talking about what I want to believe, what I'm comfortable believing. I'm talking about evidence. Evidence that supports what what I want to believe, what I'm comfortable believing. I'm talking about evidence, evidence

that supports what we believe as Christians. Okay. Cause it's very hard for me to sit around a Christmas tree or a nativity scene if I don't really believe. Okay. Now those particles on the Shroud of Turin, which are not around the time of his death. We know that from carbon-14. You do believe in carbon-14 testing, right, Guy Powell? I do. Absolutely. That's a yes, no. So yes. Yeah, that's a yes. Absolutely. You trust carbon-14. Don't make me cut your mic, not on Christmas Eve, please. You do believe in carbon-14. Some of those particles were carbon-14 tested, and they showed that they are from much, much, much later, centuries later after Christ's death. Now, isn't it also true, Guy Powell, that you believe, as do I, that those more recent particles were from the storage of the shroud. In other words, if I put this piece of paper down,

it's going to collect the DNA of where, you know, the particles from where I place it. So the theory is that those more recent particles are from the storage method. Well, and that's where I was getting to is if that piece of paper that you put down had paint on it, that would transfer paint over to the shroud itself. And so those paint particles that you're talking about would have been transferred from another painted cloth that was made as a replica. Now, you also mentioned the carbon-14 dating. That is the, I do believe the carbon-14 dating is correct. The challenge is that the carbon-14 dating that was done on the shroud was done very improperly. They didn't follow protocol. And it's possible that the sample that they took was in an area that had been repaired with modern material. And therefore, unfortunately, that carbon dating that was done really needs to be thrown out. And all evidence points to the fact that it should be thrown out. They did the statistics wrong.

They hid the data. And at the end of the day, those people that were- Why would they hide the data on the Shroud of Turin? Exactly. Why would they hide the data? When we find that out? Who shot JFK? Who knows why the government hides anything? But that said, Guy Powell, are you satisfied that the Shroud of Turin's attacks have been disproved.

Absolutely. I think there has not been one attack that has been proven to 100% that the Shroud is false. Every attack that's made, whether there's paint on there, whether there's radiocarbonating, every one of those has been proven to be false. And then you have many, many tens of tests that have been done that do indicate that it is from the first century and it dates to the first century. So, so far, there has not been one valid scientific proof to be able to say that the shroud itself is not authentic. Researchers have pointed out that there are no records for 99% of the people that served in the Roman Empire, but there is evidence of Jesus found in an ancient piece of graffiti known as Alex Aminos Graffito. Carved into the wall of a room

near the Palatine Hill in Rome, somewhere between the first and third centuries AD, the drawing is of a man worshiping a donkey-headed man hanging from a cross with the message that translates to, Alex Aminos worships his God. A leading authority on archaeology of early Christianity, Dr. Jonathan Reed, tells the Daily Mail, the earliest evidence we have in the archaeological record for Christians is someone making fun of Jesus being crucified. That actually hurts me to think of someone making fun of Christ dying on a cross. The Christian theory is that Christ allowed himself to be crucified so that now, centuries and centuries later, when we face death, we will have no fear because we know he endured

the very same thing, if not worse, and lived on. To Dr. Robert Van Vorst joining us, Professor Emeritus, New Testament, Western Theological Seminary, and author of Jesus Outside the New Testament, Dr. Van Vorst, I want to explain to you as best as I can. I mean, you guys are the experts, not me. I'm just a trial lawyer. Why this evidence, the graffiti mocking Christ, to me is the most probative. Why? Unlike people, not you, Guy Powell, of course, that advanced the legitimacy of the Shroud of Turin,

not other people invested in continuing the faith. They got a dog in the fight, right? They got skin in the game. This guy has nothing in it. This is graffiti carved onto a wall actually mocking Christ's crucifixion and people bowing down to worship him. And this was at the time of Christ. I find that considering the source

to be more probative than a priest or a preacher or a nun. This is someone, a non-believer, who is accepting the story of Christ and even mocking it. Well, that's right. The whole graffito there points quite clearly that Jesus was known to be crucified, that this crucified figure is worshipped by Alexamenos, and of course he is made fun of in this graffito. Alexamenos is a young man and probably this graffito was put on the wall of a school or a building there on the Palatine Hill. And if you go to Rome today, you should go to the Palatine Museum and see that because it's really quite striking. And it testifies to us that Jesus was known widely

in the ancient world, especially in Rome, as someone who was crucified, and his crucifixion called forth worship from his followers. Yeah, that's really interesting the way you just said that, Dr. Van Voorst, because people were crucified. That was not uncommon in the time of Pontius Pilate. But people, all the others that were crucified didn't get worshiped. That sets Christ apart. So I'm not, at this point, I don't think anyone doubts that Christ

existed. It's in all of the ancient Jewish manuscripts and more. We don't have any question that He was crucified. It's the resurrection part. That is the, let me just say, fly in the ointment. But here in this graffiti, we see, it's being made fun of, of course, that Christ is actually being worshipped. Why? Why is He different from everybody else that was crucified,

whether Uncle Gotha or not? Because He is and was different. Okay, far from some old age graffiti, now an incredible mosaic has emerged. Listen to this. Located beneath the floor of an Israeli prison, an 1800 year old mosaic featuring the first written declaration of Jesus as God. The mosaic is 581 square feet and decorated the world's first prayer hall in 230 AD.

It contains the ancient Greek phrase, the God-loving Akeptos has offered the table to God Jesus Christ as a memorial. Carlos Campos, the CEO of the Museum of the Bible, which recently exhibited the mosaic, hailed it as the greatest discovery since the Dead Sea Scrolls. The prosecution's case for Christ, did he exist? I say yes. And I am schooled, schooled in bringing forth believable and credible evidence. What about eyewitnesses? Yes, I know in a court of law, one eyewitness can easily be attacked. Were you wearing glasses?

How far away were you? What were the lighting conditions that night? Isn't it true? You have had cataracts in your left eye, blah, blah, blah. But what about 500 witnesses? Joining me, Bishop Dr. LaDonna Osborne, could you speak to the hundreds of witnesses that saw Christ after the resurrection? Yes, that documentation giving, saw the divine and human expression of his life. And then they wrote. I know there's questions about actual authorship,

but they were eyewitnesses that wrote and documented what we can call ancient literature. It still has survived. And Nancy, I think the fact that the Bible has even come to us in spite of all the human intervention, that's a miracle by itself. So yes, after his resurrection. It really is, Bishop Osborne. Billy Howell, what about it? Agree or disagree with LaDonna regarding hundreds of witnesses. It's my job to attack witnesses in court. That's my job. And I believe my questions. I believe I'm doing the right thing. But 500 witnesses and another thing, Hallowell. People at that time, Billy Hallowell, chose rather than denounce Christ. They chose to go into hiding, living in caves, uprooting their families because they saw him. Now, that is certainly a dish of credibility, Billy. I mean, would any sane person go to a brutal death?

From what we know from tradition, John may be the only one who didn't have a brutal death, who had a peaceful death, right? All of his direct followers. But I want to address that question about the 500, because when you look at first Corinthians, which is where that story is, Paul probably wrote that around AD 55. Jesus died around AD 33, let's say. So you're talking about 20 some odd years here. So most of the people that were in that 500, the Bible actually tells us a good chunk of them were still alive. So here is Paul writing a letter, making an outlandish claim that Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to 500 people. And where are all the people to say, no, you're crazy.

No, this is wrong. Everything we've documented in this show, there are people mocking, there are people calling Jesus a sorcerer, but nobody is denying these stories really, right? We're not seeing denials. We're seeing people misplace what's happening or have it wrong. I think it's pretty remarkable that Paul would write that letter with those people, hundreds of them, very likely alive. It's a pretty bold thing to do if you're making up a lie. I find that one of the most compelling pieces of scripture.

According to the gospel, we are asked to live in faith. Many doubters say, well, why can't we just have proof? I guess if we had proof, then we wouldn't have no free will because it would be force-fed to us. I think Christ asks for the faithful, not the robots who simply regurgitate what they've been fed. How do you explain that, Dr. Van Vorst? Well, I think that to look at the life of the disciples is good, and the way that they died in faith and in obedience to Christ.

Very early, it became a point of belief that because Jesus died for us, we should be willing to die for him. And when you look atero's persecution of Christians, said that a lot of people began to be sympathetic to Christians because they realized that Nero was going way over the top with this, and he was killing people in cruel ways for things that did not deserve death. And this was impressive to other people, you know, so much so that the early Christian theologian Tertullian said very famously, the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church, that the more they were killed, the more attention they got, the more faith was elicited in other people. And they had such a strong belief, not only in Jesus dying for them, but that Jesus was raised from the dead by God eternally, that the same thing would happen for them, that martyrdom would

lead to resurrection and eternal life. The case for Christ, we could argue about so-called evidence to a blue in the faith, but to many it's a matter of faith. Nothing in the world is usually black or white. So many things cannot be proven, such as 2 and 2 equals 4 to a mathematical certainty. But it's very probative that in that time, disciples and many others chose to die horrible deaths than recount the life, the crucifixion, and the resurrection of Christ. I would submit that to a jury as probative. At this Christmas season, the truth of Christ is still in question for many, but as you gather around your Christmas tree,

it's certainly something to not only question, to consider, but hopefully to believe. Merry Christmas. This is an iHeart Podcast.