Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - THE SHELL COLLECTOR: FINDING LOVE AFTER LOSS

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

A military widow struggles with her husband’s death, a heartbroken Marine is forced to face his past, and an older widow secretly spreads wisdom while she still can. When the lives of these three broken souls converge, they finally find peace and love. Today on Crime Stories, Nancy Grace speaks with the author and star of the new Fox Nation film, The Shell Collector.  Along with Nancy Naigle and Caitlin Clark,  two military widows, Barb Allen and Taya Kyle discuss their own experiences in dealing with the loss of their husbands.  Joining Nancy Grace today:  Nancy Naigle - USA TODAY and ECPA Bestselling Author: "The Shell Collector, NancyNaigle.com, Instagram/Twitter: @nancynaigle  Caitlin Clark - Actress, "The Shell Collector", Instagram: @Caitlin_M_Clark,   Barb Allen - Wife of Lt. Louis Allen, killed in Iraq in 2005  Author/Speaker/Podcast Host: "Flex Your Freedom", Author: "What Not to Wear to a Murder Trial", "How to Woo a Widow" and "Front Toward Enemy" BarbAllenSpeaks.com, Instagram: @BarbAllenSpeaks Taya Kyle - Wife of Navy SEAL Chris Kyle (killed in 2013, American Sniper - two children), Executive Director: Taya and Chris Kyle Foundation, Tackf.org, Author: "American Wife" & "American Spirit", Twitter/Instagram: @TayaKyle Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, CarynStark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"      See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Can you imagine building your life with your husband, having children, sometimes three, four, or five children, sending your husband off to fight for our country, and that moment when you learn he will never come home? With me today, two military widows. One of them, the wife of Chris Kyle, the American sniper. The other, the wife of Lieutenant Lewis Allen, killed in Iraq. Leaving behind not only his beautiful wife, Barb, but four boys.

She is a podcaster and an author. Also with me today, an incredible author. I know you're going to love her as much as I do. Her name is Nancy Nagel. She is a best-selling author, and she has written a book that you're going to love, The Shell Collector. It is a story about a military widow starting life all over again. Also with me, an incredible actress. Now you may have seen her before because I have, Caitlin Clark. She is the star of a brand new movie, which will drop on Fox Nation September 1, The Shell Collector. And she has taken on the burden and the responsibility of portraying a military widow.

Also with me, longtime friend and colleague, Karen Stark. That's Karen with a C, New York psychologist at KarenStark.com. To help us figure out what we do after such an incredible loss. First, I want to go to Taya Kyle, the wife of Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, the American sniper. She is the director of the Taya and Chris Kyle Foundation, author of American Wife and American Spirit. You can find her on Twitter and Instagram at Taya Kyle. Everyone, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, Taya, I don't know how you and Barb put one foot in front of the other after suffering the blow that you did. Do you remember when Chris left?

I do. And, you know, each time he left was different. And I think that's part of what we have to acknowledge as military spouses is that no time of a deployment is the same when they leave or when they come back. And the day that Chris and his friend Chad were killed was a Saturday morning and we had just taken the kids to basketball games. Everything was great. They were just going to go help somebody who claimed to have had PTS. Chris had a lot of success taking guys out in nature and talking to them and doing something they had in common as a way to just open the conversation. And so because the only information that Chris had was this was a person with PTS, he thought, you know, of course I'm going

to show up for this guy and we'll take him somewhere really beautiful and it's a nice drive and I'll get my my best friend Chad go out there with me and and then the guy turned on them of course I think that in that we're very blessed to have had such a great morning and such a great period of our life to end on a high note. And it's also, I think, adds to the tragedy and the shock that it takes a long time to really process that, you know, I had that thought through my mind over and over and over in the months to come. Like, you know, just, I don't understand would come through my mind. Anytime I'd stop, it would be like the back

of my mind would be like, I don't understand. I don't understand. So yeah, I do remember obviously very much so the, um, that morning that you left and, um, you know, I'm just, like I said, I'm glad we were in a really good place and, and had made it. Barb Allen is also with us, wife of Lieutenant Lewis Allen. He and his co-captain, Philip Esposito, killed in Iraq. He left four boys behind, ages six, five, three, and one at the time. Barb, do you remember that moment when you sent him on his way, kissed him goodbye? Yeah, I mean, there are certain moments we all have that are branded into us forever, and that's absolutely one of them. You know, I was trying to be strong the first time he drove away from our home, and I was holding our youngest child next to our tree. And we were both kind of crying and hugging our baby together while the other ones were inside. And he drove off to go, you know, to go meet up with people he needed to meet up with.

And a second later, he came roaring back down the road and jumped out of the car and left the door open and came running over to me, you know, gave me a big hug. He's like, I don't know how many leaves you got. You know, it was one of those moments that you just don't forget. And I went up to see him on Memorial Day weekend he had a surprise opportunity for me to see him one more time so Memorial Day weekend 2005 I was able to go up to Fort Drum and spend one more night with him just him and I and I will really never forget every single moment of that time. And, you know, I had to leave the next day and he deployed on Memorial Day 2005.

And 10 days later, he and his commanding officer were murdered by the staff sergeant of the unit. So, you know, it's just, you know, 10 days was just a lifetime apart. Barb, how did you discover that he had been killed? I had been up all night waiting to hear back from him. And I was just sort of resting on our bed. It was 6am. I had this terrible, terrible feeling something was wrong. I had had some moments the day before where I almost knew, like I just knew in some layer of my being that he had been killed.

Barbara, you are giving me chills all over because Karen Stark and I have talked about it a lot before. But so often victims' families, I mean, I knew it happened to me when my fiance was murdered. You know, before anybody tells you, it's the strangest thing. And I swear, of course, I could never bring this in to a court of law. I would never bring it up to a jury even because they'd never believe me. But I've heard it over and over and over. Barb, tell me about that. Those moments that, you know, the day before I thought I saw him walking down the street as I was flying home, I'd missed his call

and he sat next to me in the car and he had the space and he he said I don't know if I could say this online you can edit it out but he looked at me he said oh you know and then later on in the evening I was feeding my kids dinner and it was like something literally just it was literally like I was punched in my gut and I fell over on the table. I was just out of nowhere. And I knew in that moment. I just knew without knowing. And then you sit up all night telling yourself that you're crazy. But then your doorbell rings at 6 o'clock in the morning and the military detail is at your door.

And your world comes to an end. Oh, my stars. I'm just trying to imagine you, Barb, and Taya dealing with the loss of the love of your life and your spiraling. I mean, Taya, how did you do it? How did you come out of that? You know, it's interesting. It's been a really long process of learning about grace for myself and from my kids. And my faith in God has increased so much. I've experienced God in so many different ways that I would have never imagined in the first place that have carried me. And I remember there was this moment where I have many moments, right? And I've, I've gone back and I've asked my daughter, I've learned. So, okay. I'm, I'm in, in fragmented because there are so many moments,

but I'm going to pick two. One of them was when I, I realized that I was everything that I had lawsuits, Chris's business partners, somebody else, we had attacks from the family rumors, you know, it, it seems to always compound and it was and it was sort of a 580 degree battlefield at the time and my temper was short and I was up late you know all those things and so years later I said to my daughter I was not the mom I wanted to be and I'm so sorry and I need to ask your forgiveness and she said mama what are you even what are you talking about like I don't remember those things. And I had prayed earlier that God would mend the places that I broke in them,

and I had these really intense spiritual experiences where I felt like God was going to pick up where I had fallen short. And the other moment I want to share with you is this moment that I had with my son. I was driving into the house, and I was crying so hard. And these are years after it happened, right? These are probably, the conversation with my daughter was maybe seven years after Chris was killed. And we had many conversations before, but the beauty of that one was that she didn't remember all of the things that I did. The one with my son was probably three or four years after Chris was killed. And we were pulling into our house and I

said, I had this idea when you were first born and things were so good that I knew I couldn't be a perfect mom, but I thought I was going to be really close. Like, it just came naturally to me, and I had all this love, and I just felt so happy about it. And it hurts me, and I have to let go of this, that I can't even come close to what I think I might have been able to have been without trauma. And it breaks my heart, but it's time for me to let go because I've held on to it and it's hurting us more than it's helping us. And, you know, it was this powerful moment with him where he understood. And my kids are so deep and so faithful and so mature. And they get so much of life that other people their age

wouldn't get. And I think he realized that it was a powerful thing that I wanted that I had to let go of, and that we all have to give ourselves grace for the things that we can't do when life attacks, if that makes sense. I'm just listening and hearing how your lives have spun out after losing your husband. Guys, with me, two incredible military widows. Barb Allen, wife of Lieutenant Lewis Allen. He and his co-captain, Philip Esposito, killed in Iraq. He left behind four little boys to be raised by Mommy. Taya Kyle, wife of Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, the American Sniper.

I'm sure we've all seen the movie American Sniper. I want to bring in our other incredible guests. But I just had to start with the real thing, our military widows, who we owe so much. You know, when we look at all the military and we think, oh, what they're sacrificing, they're going overseas, they're in training, they're risking their lives. So often we don't think about the military wives and husbands and children that are also risking their world when mom or dad are deployed. Listen to The Shell Collector. Mom, what are you doing? I think I forgot something on this aisle. Listen to The Shell Collector. Jesse! Jesse, where are you? I'm over here!

That's good. You're ready to go to work. Hi. Hi. I think I have something you're looking for. Seems like you do. Thank you. Jesse, we talked about this. It's not safe for you to wander off from me. Sorry, Mom. Jesse tells me you're having some sink problems. Uh, yeah. I was trying to fix our sink, and let's just say the sink won.

That's why I bought this for her. Uh, you're probably not going to fix it with those. Um, I'm sure you don't need my help, but I am pretty handy with plumbing. And I know the store front to back. I can help you find what you're looking for. Two tools you need. A basin wrench and a crescent wrench. Okay.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to go now to Caitlin Clark. She is just stunning. And let me just, I'll go ahead and confess, before we started talking on air today, I had to ask her, Are you wearing blue contacts? And, of course, I was devastated when she said no. Her eyes, I mean, once you see them, you'll never forget them she is an accomplished actress so many credits to her name and i was especially interested that she actually this beautiful woman starred in horror flicks which if i was telling jackie i would totally be in horror movies if i

were an actress caitlin you have a really wide range. But my question to you, my first question. Hey, everybody. As I like to say, this is no high tea at Windsor Castle, all right? Jump in whenever you feel like it. Caitlin, how did you deal with the responsibility of portraying someone like Barb Allen or Taya Kyle. Because I remember when I would go into trial, and I would be all prepared, let's say on a murder trial, and I would have met with the family of the victim, and I would have gone to the medical examiner, and the crime lab, and the crime scene, and taken photos and measurements, and blah, blah, blah,

written the opening statement and the closing statement. When I would walk into court, I would know that I had to represent the state, and everybody was counting on me to somehow pull it out. I mean, when you hear real-life military widows, what was in your mind when you went to Act I, scene one? Well, thank you, Nancy, for having me on. But I do have to say, especially after listening just now to Barb and Taya, I remember when we filmed, and this is actually the opening scene. And of course, there's some scenes where you can't really relate to it, but you know how to prepare and it might require listening to music.

But I remember this one particular scene. The movie starts off. I'm saying goodbye to my husband without giving too much of the story away. And don't you dare give away the end where I'm not. We're on location there before we shoot the scene. And I just remember thinking, seeing the buses pull up, the soldiers in their uniforms, the actors, actually. And I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, I can't imagine what military families and the soldiers must go through because immediately i felt like this anxiety and i felt sad already without having to do much preparing i thought i don't i'm not going to need to listen to music i didn't even know the actor that well i only met him a couple days

before patch may and just standing there with my two children who are actors and seeing the rest of the families surrounding us I felt so sad and it really didn't take much for me to say of this the scene who is this is my brother my husband a boyfriend I can't imagine what Barb and Taya must have gone through and so many families and the soldiers and right away that I've I was sad it was easy for the the tears to come out because it's just it's something that happens all the time and it's happened to so many families so for that that moment particularly I didn't it didn't really require much because you you this and you think, oh, my God, I can't believe this, how many people this has hurt. So that scene for me was definitely heartbreaking.

People often think that we see actresses and actors on the red carpet and they're all glamorous or we see pictures in the tabloids of them going to dinner or some fun vacation somewhere when I'm listening to you describe that feeling before you started filming Caitlin you know it can really it can take a toll when you take it to heart and this is not much of a comparison but I would take my cases to heart. And I felt like so many people were counting on me and relying on me. And I would imagine what it would feel like, you know, if I lost the case and I'd have to tell the victim's mom, you know, I'm sorry. And it just it's it's a huge burden. Now, we have one woman to thank for this incredible story, the shell collector, which I am so proud is going to be at my home, Fox Nation. We have this woman to thank, Nancy Nagel.

Can I tell you about her? She is a best-selling author. She's written so many books, but this one, oh, you can find her at nancynagel.com, N-A-I-G-L-E. She's on Insta and Twitter, of course. The Shell Collector is incredible, Nancy, and I've just got to hear how you were inspired to write this. And did you have any idea it was going to be this incredible movie with Caitlin Clark starring in it? Oh, gosh, you know what? This whole story has been truly a blessing. And Taya and Barb, I mean, I'm just sitting here bawling for you girls.

I love y'all. And my voice is shaking, I mean, I'm just sitting here bawling for you girls. I love y'all. And my voice is shaking. I'm so sorry. But, you know, I was born and raised in Virginia Beach. So I don't have that military spouse background. But I have always had oodles of respect because, you know, the military wives are just as much at the forefront of protecting us and taking care of us as our soldiers are. There's such a huge commitment and respect and a gift from not only those men and women that are serving, but their families, you know, and the children. And I grew up with all these kids that were having to say goodbye to their daddies and stuff just for a few months.

And when tragedy turns. But this story came out of a different inspiration. I lost my husband to a short battle of cancer in 2014. He was diagnosed in October with stage four lung cancer, and at the end of January, he was gone. And at that time, I was a senior vice president with Bank of America in the finance and technology industry. And I, you know, as so many people do, you know,

I felt this profound need to pull myself up somehow through that grief. And I was really floundering. And five weeks later, I lost my cousin. And she had been battling cancer for years. And one of the stories he had told me was of a family friend who lived on the Outer Banks and Kitty Hawk and as that woman walked the beach one morning with something really heavy on her heart she kicked up a shell and when she picked it up I had a

scripture written in it and it happened to be this beautiful scripture that that uplifted her and helped her manage through. And over six years, she found four shells like that. And nobody else she knew had found any. And she considered them her messages from the angels by the sea. And I remember losing Mike on January 30th, and then five weeks later, losing Diane. And I was still so crumpled from losing Mike. I didn't even go to her funeral. And I remember laying in my bed, just sobbing for that loss and thinking I could use a bucket of those shells. And at that point, that story really started building in my heart. And it took me years to

write it. I lost him in 2014. This book didn't come out until 2021. But I felt such a need to make something good out of it. And I can tell you, the Lord has brought so many widows into my path that it's almost a little frightening when I start telling stories and there are so many. But we have found strength in each other and being able to share our stories and uplift each other. And so my hopes for this book were that

knowing that every single one of us is going to go through this loss someday, it's still, we're never going to perfect it. And I thought if I could write a story that would somehow find a permanent place in ladies' hearts, that when they went through that loss, something would tickle a memory or give them just a little bit of hope to help them manage through it with grace. That would be the biggest gift at all. And when Fox Nation contacted me to option this for a movie, I mean, I couldn't have

been happier. I've had several movies on Hallmark. They were all very special, but this just carries such a special message and meaning for me that touching this many people is just the biggest blessing of all. I tell you what, Nancy Nagel, Barb Allen, and Taye Kyle, and you too, Caitlin, now that I think about it, all four of you have just brought me to tears as I'm sitting here listening to what you had to overcome. One thing I'm hearing from you is that the Lord gave you a strength that you didn't know you have. Nancy, if you would tell me that story one more time and let me sink in about when those shells were found.

Yeah, I mean, that story just touched me from the first moment I heard it. But after I had that loss, it just meant so much more. I could just picture this friend of our family walking down that beach like she did every morning. And I grew up in Virginia Beach, so we just do that. It doesn't matter what the weather is, you know, sunshine or rain or cold, we walk that beach and love it. You know, and she kicks that shell up in the surf, bends down, picks it up. And then as she turns it over, she realizes something's written in it. And to read that scripture and suddenly feel that lifting of that burden to make her be able to manage through the problem that she had at that time

was just amazing. And that over a six-year period, she found four shells. Not all of them were scriptures, but all of them were positive messages. And some of them not even on the beach, but out near her home. And so you're like, well, how did that happen? Wow. And she said, you know, she asked people. Nobody else had had it happen.

Nobody else had found a shell. That's amazing. It was just an incredible story and so neat and touching. And so, you know, as the wheels in my own mind and heart were turning as I was trying to manage the grief, this story of this older woman who was kind of the navigator of those shells, even though she didn't know where they were going to end up or whose hands, you know, but that they managed to be in the right people's hands at the right time. I mean, it became so real to me.

That's an incredible inspiration. Barb Allen, joining me, wife of Lieutenant Lewis Allen. He and his co-captain, Philip Esposito, were killed in Iraq in 2004. He left four little boys as young as one year old behind to be raised by mommy. Barb, when did you feel that moment of strength, of inspiration, when you could actually see the light at the end of the tunnel? I had a lot of those moments over the years, but the one that served to help me change the trajectory of my life and sort of pivot everything around and take my life back was, it was actually on my 42nd birthday when I got a

call, a collect call, of course, from my ex-fiance. I was broken. I was in bad health. Everything. I just felt like I failed my kids. I failed God. I failed my husband. I just, you know, way below rock bottom. And that call, it just ended badly. I mean, because how could that not end badly? And I fell to my knees, literally dropped to my knees in my driveway. I was sobbing and just broken. This was 10 years after my husband had been killed. And I prayed. And I just said, I really just prayed to God. I said, please help me figure this out. You know, how do I? I have to fix this. I have to change.

I have to get myself together. I have to be strong. And I don't know how. Can you help me? And I felt an instant rush of warmth and beauty. I can't describe it. And strength. And it just, it was almost like I heard someone saying,

finally, you know, I sort of had to humble myself, you know, and ask for that help. And I stood back up and I just felt different. I had all the same problems, but now I had hope and I just felt differently. And I felt like it was going to be okay because I had reached that awareness and I had received that grace from a place I don't know. So that was the moment that I began taking all of those steps that I needed to change everything about my life and more amazing people came into my life from that moment on, Taya being one of them. So, you know, I'll never forget that moment either. Listen to The Shell Collector. I'm sorry I was so awful to you after Jack died. You were trying to be there for us and I blamed you. I know it wasn't your fault.

But it was. If I hadn't taken a different assignment, then I would have been there with him. That was the plan. That was the promise. And I broke it. Well, if you had been there, you probably wouldn't have come home either.

That'd be better than being here without him. He had you, the kids, so much to come home to. None of this is fair. I'm finally coming to terms with that. I have my bad D's. But overall, I'm okay. Caitlin Clark joining me, just an incredible actress who is starring in what is an incredible movie. And I'm so proud to be able to talk to them today. Caitlin, what was it like telling this story, The Shell Collector? Well, I did feel, I guess, a lot of pressure because I felt like, well, my husband was killed

in the movie and I didn't want to make it seem like, okay, we forget about him. But I also wanted to, hopefully my portrayal of Amanda will inspire people to move on and reach out for help. But I also didn't want it to make it like, okay, move on with my life, but then we forget Jack, my husband. So that was the pressure of thinking, okay, does it make it seem like I moved on and now he's out the window? But that was something I discussed with the acting teacher, and he said, no, you know, there's going to be a part in the script where you'll make it clear that just because you found your new life with your family and you've moved to a new town. You know, he's always going to be there.

And I'm sure many people who have lost loved ones, that will be the case for them. They've moved on. But, of course, their loved one will always be a huge part of their life and will always own a corner of their heart. Yeah, that's so poignant the way you said that. Always own a corner of their hearts. With me, in addition to Barb Allen and Nancy Nagel, Karen Stark and Caitlin Clark, is Taya Kyle, wife of Navy SEAL Chris Kyle, who I mentioned earlier is the American Sniper. I'm sure many of you have seen that awesome movie, The American Sniper. Taya, when was the moment, we heard Barb describing the moment she literally fell to her knees

and just could not go forward. When was the moment that you saw a light at the end of the tunnel? No, it's interesting that you asked that question because I had these, in hindsight, I look back and think what I felt like in losing Chris was an amputation. And as a parent, I think if my child was going to have an amputation and I knew it was unavoidable, then I would do everything I could to prepare them ahead of time, but I wouldn't tell them everything. I wouldn't overwhelm them. I would try to just give them pieces of information and put them around people who had survived hard things. And then I'd be with them during the

amputation. And after I would say, okay, we're going to heal. And then we are going to get out there stronger than you were before. And we are going to show everyone and show yourself importantly, that this doesn't take you out of game. I say that because I feel like in hindsight, that's what God did with me, knowing that there's free will of man, knowing that things hit us, but God knows those things are going to happen. And so he prepares us. And my preparation, the way I see it is that I had friends who lost their husbands and I watched these young widows go through it and I knew that they survived. And I knew that after I would leave the funeral, I would think, I can't believe I have to go to the grocery store for my kids.

It feels like the world should be stopping for them. But it doesn't. Oh, my stars, Taya. I have used that exact phrase a million times after. I can't believe you just said those exact words. You felt the world should be stopping I've said a hundred times after my fiancee Kate's murder it felt like I stepped off the world and looked back because my world had stopped and the world was still spinning and I couldn't

believe how everything didn't stop because this horrible thing had happened. Right. And it's so hard to take in. So I'm just imagining you coming home from a funeral and thinking, I've got to go to the grocery store for the children. It's just, so when did you feel, did you even see a tiny light at the end of the tunnel? Well, yeah, I think that was the interesting thing is I believe that God, you know, did not want those things, but he used those things so that when I had my moment and when people

told me, you know, that Chris had been killed, I had this knowing, you know, I had one friend with me at the time and she said, Taya, I saw you and the tears were pouring down your face. And he said, are you sure? Are you sure? Because I knew there were so many times that I had heard that maybe the guys had died or been injured. And so I told myself, until it's you, it's not you. Don't assume trouble until somebody looks you in the eye and tells you it's you. And so when they said that, and I asked them three times, are you sure are you sure and they said yes it was like my head fell back against the wall the tears streamed down and my friend said it's like you went into business mode of okay then this is it because I knew somewhere inside me I have watched these women do this and the world is not going to stop

and this is going to be you know hell on earth for however long it's going to be. And it's almost like my number came up, like F, I'm trying to swear on this show, but like, oh my God, it's, oh my God. And then you kind of go into shock and there were some, it's a long story, but there were some pastors that had gathered in my house that I think people knew maybe before they confirmed it with me. And I remember grabbing their hand. First of all, I said, who are you? Because they were just in street clothes. And they said, oh, we're some local pastors. And I said, OK.

And I grabbed their hand. I said, then I want you to pray for him. I know where he is. I know where he's going. I know that God is with him. I just want you to pray for that smooth transition. And they had some platitudes and all that. And I got angry and crying.

And I said, no, him, the person, him. And I kind of went into my own version and words of the prayer. And then I was like, now, I don't want to be rude, but I need you to leave. It was like, one, two, three, this is happening and I've seen it. So it's different. So I guess that's a very long-winded way of saying, in some way, from the moment I heard, I knew you survived. And my faith was already strong. And I knew that it had nothing to do with God wanting to hurt any of us. And that was important.

So I had something of a knowing or a hope that we would make it. And part of that too, Nancy, was devastating to me. I remember when one of my friends who was a widow said, Taya, it will get better. She was years ahead of me. And she said, it will get better and the missing of him won't be so bad. And I ugly cry sobbed because part of knowing that I wouldn't have that ache of him being so close to my heart destroyed me too. So the hope is good and bad. It wanes, it ebbs and flows. I think Barb said it best. She said, you know, the thing they don't tell you about grief is that it repeats in different ways.

It really, really does. Karen Stark is with me, New York psychologist, joining us from Manhattan today. Karen, I've got to tell you, Karen and I are not just colleagues, but we've sat alone in the dark many hours together. Now, let me explain. When I first started as a fluke in TV with a program called Cochran and Grace with Johnny Cochran, I moved into trial coverage, live trials. And Karen would be on the set with me, and the whole set would be dark, and we'd be watching a trial on the monitor, a live trial,

and then we would analyze what we were seeing. And when there would be a lull or a break, we became very dear friends. And for years, she told me I had to, quote, move on from Keith's murder. But I couldn't. And everything she said was right. Karen Stark, how does anyone move on? And we're telling this with the backdrop of this incredible movie, The Shell Collector, based on Nancy Nagel's bestseller book available on Amazon, The Shell Collector. How, in real life, not on the silver screen, how can you move forward?

Because, you know, it took me over 20 years before I could consider remarrying. And I would not advise that to any crime victim. But, Nance, you couldn't help it, remember? You're traumatized. So I'm listening to these stories and so much is familiar. You're in shock when you first get that news and yet a part of you is very aware of what's happening. description of knowing ahead of time. And that's a very real phenomenon. That's not something that just occurs among a few people. I remember and was just talking to my brother about the fact that my dad who died at 50, the days before he died, we knew. We just knew. There was no reason. He had been sick, but it was a long time afterwards. And we just called each other the night before he died and said, there's this cloud over us.

And we knew he would die. We just had that feeling. The next day, we were very young. And so I feel like that's part of that connection that you have with another person. And it's very deep. And somehow, you know when they're not going to be there anymore. You just get it. And one of the things I'm hearing from everybody talking about this is the help that you need to have. If you have a faith in God,

or people that really make a difference in your life, you are with them and need to turn to them, however you need to do that. The other thing I want to say in response to what you asked, Nancy, is that it takes a very long time. And in some ways, it never goes away. It just gets smaller. It's always there. Your love is always there. The connection is there. But you learn to live again and live with that loss. And that's more of what happens. It's not like you forget them.

You never do. And it's always a part of you. There's this growth of pain that you live with and you live beyond, and it gets you to be stronger. But at first, it just feels like you can't handle it, but you do. Well, you know, Karen Stark, you know, you spent all that time with you and I talking about, could I ever go forward?

But I remember the moment I walked down the aisle and saw David at the end of the aisle and everything you told me Karen Stark was right Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nancy Nagel, the author of The Shell Collector. Did you have any idea when you were writing that book, after you gave up your corporate job, when you were writing that book, that it was going to affect people the way it has? You know, when I first started writing it, it was for me. But in part of kind of my healing and, you know, you're right. I mean, the pain doesn't go away. It definitely changes shape and texture so that we we can you know muddle through but it never

goes away but as i began getting into the story and creating it and it started coming to life on the page i knew in my heart that it was a message and that god's hands were all over it and that he was helping me create a story that could touch hearts and fit in so many circumstances. Because, you know, I think we've heard it today with Taya and Barb, too, that, you know, in your personal thing, Nancy, you know, it's like we know the story and we kind of have the power like Dorothy and her little red slippers that click our heels. And it's within us all the time. And i think a lot of that's the holy spirit and um and it gives us power to to find the people we need to uplift us and move on and so yeah i did i feel it felt like god had special things for that book and when it debuted it came out number

20 on the ecpa bestseller list it was my first first Christian romance or Christian women's fiction novel. And so, yeah, I mean, that felt like, yeah, okay, I did the right thing. I said the right things. You sure did. You sure did. And Caitlin Clark, now that you're hearing Taya and Barb, all of us talking, how does it hit you that you have been a star in such an important movement? Well, I definitely feel very honored. And it's also a great reminder, the responsibility that I have as an actress, you know, and the important part of really going through the script and hopefully inspiring others. And I hope you all appreciate my portrayal. Absolutely.

Of Amanda. Oh, my goodness. The portrayal of the star of Shell Collector, I mean, when you're hearing real-life military widows, I mean, that's a very big duty. Because you're portraying not just the heroine of the book, Shell Collector. You're portraying bits and pieces of all the women and men that have turned into military widows. Listen to the Shell Collector. Hey.

Hey. I got you a bit of a surprise, if it's okay. More than okay. Oh! Hey, you two. I got three questions for you. Do you like to run? Yeah.

Do you like to fly? You're silly. We can't fly. Do you like monkeys? We love monkeys. I've never flown one of those before. I'll show you how. Prepare to be impressed. Come on you gotta run with me or it won't fly. Here you want to give it a shot? Sure. Mom, look! You're doing it!

You're doing great! That's it, Lightning Bug! Go, go! I'm impressed. That was so sweet of you. Jack and I used to flag kites on the beach all the time as kids. I thought it'd be something I could share with them. But of course, you two had to have two kites. Because it would be a competition.

Always was. Except over you. We never competed over you. Of course not. Why would you? We wouldn't. Can I ask you, Barb, do you ever feel that your husband is giving you messages or is in touch with you or is with you every day oh I could talk for a very very long time about about that because the answer is very strong yes in so many different ways and so many different moments um And especially now, you know, I'm engaged to an amazing man who loves all of me. He has the same birthday as my husband. And it's like, you know, and even his kids have said he was just telling his kids the other day. You know, sometimes I talk to Lou and his two kids who are teenagers said to him, oh, you know, that's cool because maybe Lou had a part in sending you to Barb. So even they get it. But yeah, there have been, and I think probably if we

turned this into a discussion where we all shared our stories, I feel like we would all talk for hours about all the moments because I don't think they're unique to me. And I feel like everybody on this call. I agree with you, Barb. I agree with you. Tay, have you ever felt that Chris had has guided you or been with you at your side over this difficult time? Yeah, I do 100%. And it's interesting because you know, my daughter was six years old, and was so, so, so close to Chris. I mean, just in January, he was killed beginning of February. In January, he left for a business trip for two days and her eyes filled up with tears. And she said, I know daddy's going to be back in two days, but I already miss him. You know, she just like, they were so close.

And after he was killed, she had so many spiritual experiences that she was too young to know, right? Like one of them was we were leaving and I had enough experience before to know that I believe in this. And so, you know, the first time she asked me was like, Mama, I feel like I hear daddy saying, I love you, baby girl, but his voice sounds different. And, you know, so I just said, you know so I just said you know I'm sure you are baby and and so forth so after Chad's memorial service Chad was Littlefield was killed with Chris same day by the same person in the same moment and we that was the first memorial service that my daughter had been to we went to the bathroom and we were in the same stall before we went to the funeral right she's little and she's holding this little stuffed animal

in her little dress with tears down her face. She goes, Mama? I said, yeah. And she goes, I feel like I hear Daddy saying, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, baby girl. But what is he sorry for? And I was like, you know, if you don't know why you're hearing it, you're not making it up, you know?

And so there were a lot of experiences like that and there were some confirmations too where lot of, yeah, there were a lot of experiences like that. And a lot of, there were some confirmations too, where I thought, man, I'm, I'm crazy. Like I identified with, with Barb too saying, okay, I'm, I'm hearing this and feeling this. I'm seeing this. I surely I'm crazy. Right. Cause that's, you just doubt yourself. And then I've gotten confirmations in the most interesting ways that, okay, wow, that must have been real. And so, yes, you know, a few stories as usual from Taya over here to answer one simple question, but yes. You know what's so great about the Shell Collector?

We love that about you. What's so great about the Shell Collectors is that you can look at it any time you want on Fox Nation. I'm just so proud to be even a small part of putting this out there. To Nancy Nagel, incredible author. Barb Allen, military widow. Taya Kyle, military widow. Caitlin Clark, the incredible actress starring in The Shell Collector and our friend Karen Stark

the time we've spent together today has meant so much to me and I know it will to everyone listening or watching right now, I just wish we could all be together when we watch Shell Collector on Fox Nation but I want to thank all of you

from the bottom of my heart and wish you all the very, very best because you truly deserve it. God bless you. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friends. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.