Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Thursday Crime Stories: Kids dead from dope: HELP

Episode Date: August 9, 2018

An average of 115 Americans die each day from opioid overdoses, more than from guns or car crashes. And the rate is rising. Nancy Grace discusses the crisis with lawyer Mark Tate, who represents local governments suing drug companies for marketing practices they contend help fuel the epidemic, Dr. William Morrone, an opioid treatment expert, Tim Ryan, a recovering heroin addict who is the star of A&E's "Dope Man" series, and reporter Ninette Sosa. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. prescription pills than they are from motor vehicle accidents. The number of overdose deaths caused by synthetic opioids has more than doubled from 2015. These are people, these are real people, and they're dying out because nobody seems to care anymore. Altogether, the number of opioid overdose deaths in 2016 surpassed the number of deaths caused by the AIDS epidemic at its peak in 1995. Fulton County leaders, along with representatives from a private law firm, are suing 12 manufacturers and distributors of opioid-based medication. They say the companies downplayed the risks associated with the drug. We were all stunned to see recent images.

And these were not doctored. They were not photoshopped because, believe me, I investigated it. A couple, nice car, looked like a suburban mom and dad, passed out at the wheel. At first, I thought I was seeing an image of some kind of a hit and run or a crash or a single car incident. It wasn't. There were children in the back seat. They were looking at mommy and daddy passed out on opioids, heroin. And that photo, that one image circulated around the world. We are in the middle of an opioid crisis, an opioid epidemic. Other countries are looking at us saying, look, America has an opioid epidemic. Look at the U.S. How did we get in this spot? And I remember prosecuting cases and there would be

one guy after the next guy, after a woman, after a stockbroker, after a banker, or after a banker or after a soccer mom coming into court with heroin. I couldn't believe it. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with me. With me now, Mark Tate, lawyer representing government suing drug companies. That's what it's come to. Dr. William Maroney, opioid treatment expert.

Nanette Sosa, crime stories contributing reporter. And Tim Ryan, A&E's quote, dope man. Okay, I don't know how I feel about that, dope man. And advisor to rehab.com. Tim Ryan, I'm starting with you. You were an addict. How did you get clean I unfortunately got clean uh being sentenced to seven years in the Illinois Department of Corrections as you were just talking

I was that middle class father I was a very successful businessman I had an office in the building in downtown Chicago on Michigan Avenue I made made a very good living, but I also struggled with heroin and had a $500-a-day habit. I overdosed while driving, hit two cars, put four people in the hospital, one being a nine-month-old baby. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Tim Ryan with me, A&E's dope man, advisor to rehab.com. And I know right now I can't see Dr. William Maroney,

my friend and colleague, but I know he is just shaking his head. Tim Ryan, you did what? I overdosed while driving. I hit two cars. I put four people in the hospital. I was clinically dead on the scene. It took five doses of Narcan to bring me back. I ultimately started fighting my case. And here's where it gets deeper, because unless you live in the world of addiction, you're going to shake your head. Now, all my family knows dad's a heroin addict and I had tried Suboxone in the early 2000s and methadone, I wasn't ready to get sober. In the midst of fighting my case, I know I'm going to prison. And about three months into fighting my case, I'm profusely dope sick. And when you don't have opiates, you're hot, you're cold. It's like having the flu times a thousand. I'm taking a hot bath and my 17 year old son walks in and he said, what's wrong, pops? And I said, what do you think,000. I'm taking a hot bath, and my 17-year-old son walks in, and he said, what's wrong, pops?

And I said, what do you think, Nick? I'm dope sick. And he said, not anymore, Dad. Today's your lucky day, and he threw two bags of heroin on the counter. Now, with Nick, I was not a father. I was a friend. I was the father that let my son and his buddies

smoke a little weed, drink a little beer, and when Nick did that, I got out of the tub and I did those two bags and instantly I felt better. And I went to my son's room and I said, Nick, what are you doing? He said, don't worry, dad. I'm just selling a little bit. I said, Nick, you need to shut this down immediately. You know what this drug has done to me. And my son looked right at me and he said, well, dad, you're a successful drug addict. And I said, why would you say that? Well, we've got a nice house.

You have an office in the Wrigley building. You make a good living. In my son's delusional mind, he thought I was successful because I functioned. Three months later, my son and I were doing heroin together. That's how we bonded. Tim, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's hurting me so bad.

I mean, I can tell you've told this story a hundred times, but I'm hearing it for the first time. And I can hardly take it in because I'm thinking about, you know, every night when I run back to the back and try to take a quick bath. In fact, it's so funny. You know, Dr. Mar I run back to the back and try to take a quick bath, in fact, it's so funny. You know, Dr. Maroney, you know my children.

They're so used to me going so fast. They actually thought the name of a shower was a quick shower. They didn't know you could take a shower. They grew up hearing me go, I'm going to take a quick shower. And they grew up and they go, Mom, I'm going to go take a quick shower. They don't even know. I'm so used to going 90 miles an hour. So when I'm back there, they always are coming in and out and talking and showing me something or whatever they're doing.

I'm just imagining one of my little babies throwing down two bags of heroin. I mean, Tim with me, A&E's quote, dope man, advisor at rehab.com, telling the story. Dr. Maroney, I mean, to him, that's normal. To me, I'm actually crying right now. Just to even think of it, Dr. Maroney, how did we get here, doctor? There's been a shift in the new normal, and you may be uncomfortable with it, but became evident through medical mismanagement, the proper way to evaluate pain was interfered with by non-governmental organizations, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies,

and they pushed medications into the public through channels, education, medical societies, and opioids became very common in our society. Okay, speak English when you say opioids. Are you talking about OxyContin? Well, what do you mean? What's an opium? Norco, Vicodin, OxyCco vicodin oxycontin hydrocodone i went to i went to law school not stenography oxy i'm still on oxycodone okay oxycontin you

said something about nor norco norco vicodin don't even try to take notes okay i'm putting i put my pen down go ahead all you gotta know is pain pills got out of control because there was an organization called the Joint Commission on Hospital Accreditation that forced this concept of pain being a fifth vital sign down people's throats. And some of the governments in the states and the hospitals and the medical schools said hey this is a good idea and they didn't train doctors or providers how to adequately assess pain and treat it is that what happened to tim ryan because it sounds to me like it was a bag of heroin not an oxycontin now when you're saying Maroney, you're calling off all these pharmaceutical names, I think I know what you're talking about. You're talking about what?

Blues, Kickers, OC, Oxy, Hillbilly Heroin. Now, those are the names I know. I'm very familiar with those. Well, that's what they call it down in Atlanta. But here's what happens. When people start getting kicked off, they move to heroin with the blink of an eye. When people no longer have access to the pharmaceutical medication that was pushed on them, in a blink of an eye, they transfer because their minds have been rewired. They don't want to be sick.

And starting heroin is just the next step. And that's the new normal. So Tim Ryan addicts may crush pills before swallowing or snorting them. Dissolve pills in water. Inject them. Get multiple prescriptions for narcotics from different doctors. Go to the emergency room to get more pills when they run out. Request emergency refills for medication. Drink alcohol or use sedatives or other painkillers with their prescription. Take prescription painkillers without a prescription just for any reason. If you know someone that's doing these things and more, you got a problem. Tim Ryan, A&E Dope Man, AdvisorRehab.com.

I want to get back to that moment that you thought it was normal. It was okay for your son to come in with two bags of heroin. I would completely nut up and burn the house down. Okay. I don't even know what I would do. What happened then? So you have to understand, you know, I'm, when you're, and I will never justify because ultimately my son died, and I will be the first to admit I helped kill my own son. And I have to live with that for the rest of my life.

I didn't start Nick on heroin, but he followed in my footsteps. And I own that. But when I was in that bathtub, profusely sick, and he said, Dad, I've got two bags of heroin. It was good. I can do those. You're not trying to get high.

I'm just trying to feel normal. And within two minutes, I felt normal. And then ultimately, Nick and I started using and then I was sentenced to seven years in prison. And when I went to prison, I left my wife high and dry, our house in foreclosure.

My addiction caused damage to everyone near and dear to me. And by the grace of God, I was able to get into Sheridan Correctional Center in Illinois. There's 28 prisons in Illinois. Two of them have a therapeutic community run through WestCare. And I got into that. I did 13 and a half months in that prison. My wife divorced me. I lost our house in foreclosure.

I displaced my four kids and my wife. My son was in active addiction, but all I did was plug into recovery. My cellmate and I, 18 hours a day in that cell, studied the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, the NA Basic Text, the Bible, read hundreds of books. I wrote the business plan for the foundation I run today in that prison cell. When I walked out, Shannon, my former better half, picked me up. She had a little townhouse set up for me in downtown Naperville because I am 49 years old today.

And as someone was saying earlier, Dr. Moroney, I don't have a driver's license. I have not had a driver's license in 16 years due to my driving on revolts, driving and getting DUIs. But the good thing is I have a full-time driver in a company car and my full-time driver is my 19-year-old son. So I get the honor and privilege of working with my son every day speaking in schools doing everything we do but i got out of prison shannon brought nick man tim ryan a and e dope man advisor rehab.com you're you're jack and i are in the studio we can't take it in. You're going so fast.

This, this story. I mean, every sentence is a whole new thing. So your wife that divorced you. Yeah. While you were behind bars, getting yourself together. She got you a townhouse to move into while you're in jail. Her and my mother did it. Even though Shannon divorced me, she still brought two of the kids to visit me every two weeks.

She was my biggest supporter. And I asked her, I said, why did you not give up on me? She said, Tim, when you went to prison, my heart was broken. Then it got to be a task to come and see you. Then I was excited that you were getting out because I had a little bit of hope that you might turn your life around. And I did. I started support groups where I have the families in person struggling, coming at the same time. I set up my foundation. I stumbled into working for a treatment center doing outreach. And then on my 19th sobriety day, my 20-year-old son, Nick, was back in treatment

for the fifth or sixth time. And I went to meet with Nick and he said, dad, we're going to speak all over the country. We got such a crazy story. I said, Nick, I would want nothing more than that, but you need to get into recovery. Don't worry, dad. I will. He got out 30 days later. He's back in Cook County jail, selling bogus bills, trying to buy heroin. He did 45 days. He got out. Shannon picked him up, took him to lunch and said, Nick, we're done. You're not coming to my house. You're not coming to dad's because all you do is lie, cheat and steal. Don't worry. I got it all figured out. Five days out of jail, I called Nick and I said, Nick, this is three and a half years

ago. I said, Nick, come to my house and get some Narcan. I was doing a big training event the following week. We started handing it out to our support groups. And he said, Dad, I promise you I'm not on that BS anymore. And I believed him. Two days later, Shannon called me at six in the morning, said, Nick, overdose. I'm coming to pick you up. We shot to Hinsdale Hospital. We ran into the emergency room. Tim and Shannon

Ryan to see our son, Nick. He overdosed. And 30 seconds later, the chaplain walked out. I knew my son was dead. And I'll ask people, what was my next thought? And they'll say, you wanted to go use. No, my next thought was I'll be at the six o'clock 12 step meeting. And that's what I did. And there's a lot more to it. But my son died on my 21 month sobriety date. The newspaper was doing a big article on me because that following Thursday, I was doing a big Narcan training event. And the reporter called me and said, Tim, I'm going to cancel the story. I said, no, you're not. She said, you're not going through with the event. Are you? I said, absolutely. I laid my son to rest on Wednesday. I did the event on Thursday. And in

the paper, it said anti-heroin crusader loses son to overdose. Unfortunately, in my son's passing, Nick really instilled what I do today. I can't change the past. I can't change anything I did. All I can do is take this pain, my 30 years of in and out of addiction, and use it for a positive to benefit people today. And I've assisted over 3,000 people into treatment. My full-time job, I work for a treatment center out of Florida, Transformations in Delray Beach. I speak all over the country. This is my life 24-7. Since Nick passed, I've buried 117 people. With me, Tim Ryan, A&E's Dope Man, advisor to rehab.com, Nanette Sosa, Dr. William Maroney, and Mark Tate, high-profile lawyer suing drug companies. Hold on just a moment. I want to address something.

You know, there's a lot of cold cases out there like the Golden State Killer, and they've been in the news a lot recently. But guess what? There's so many cold case murders across the country you never hear about. Well, Kelly Siegler and her team are changing that on Oxygen's cold justice. Kelly and her team of detectives dig into real cold murder cases in search of answers for victims and their families. And the show's executive producer is Dick Wolf, the creator of Law & Order. Each case really draws you in. You feel like you're part of Kelly's team and you will love how they work so hard to get justice because each case is personal to Kelly and the whole team. Well, buckle up. Watch the new season of Cold Justice, Saturday, 6 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Central, and you can find it on Oxygen. William Maroney, opioid treatment expert. Dr. Maroney,

you and I have very, very similar beliefs. When I'm listening to Tim Ryan from A&E's Dope Man from Rehab.com, I'm thinking about how so many people would be angry at him, blame him for his son's death, find fault with him. But, you know, I'm convinced that those that are broken the most are used the most to do good things. So anyone listening, if you think you are beyond healing and beyond repair and beyond doing anything with your life, please hear the words of Tim Ryan. Dr. Maroney, what happens when you are on an opioid? How does it take over your whole life? How does it suddenly, how is it okay?

Your son comes in and gives you a bag of heroin and you're okay with that? What you have to understand is at the level that you're using, if you don't get enough, you get sick. And what drives you back is not necessarily the need to get high, but you have to stop getting sick. And that's what everybody else in America doesn't understand about how the brain has been rewired in these people. And the number of milligrams they continue to need to not get sick goes up and they try to do enough drug to stop getting sick. But what we know, it's almost like there's this third wave.

I talked about prescription drugs. That was the first wave of addictions. The second wave of addictions is the onset of heroin into our culture at large volumes four or five years ago. The third wave, which is probably starting sometime last year, is the introduction of fentanyl alone and fentanyl and heroin. People are trying to get back to just not being sick, but it's clear that fentanyl and heroin are changing the American landscape forever, and all the doctors are ill-equipped with just not enough addiction doctors to help. Hospitals are inaccurately trained and the governments can't catch up with this because it's exploding. He's

trying to just not get sick. And what we need to do, I have a book that clearly outlines how heroin and fentanyl are exploding. And the only answer. Are you talking about American Narcan? Yes. That's Dr. William Maroney's book. It's one of the many ways Dr. Maroney is fighting the opioid crisis right now. To anyone that needs help now, dial 800-273-8255. 800.

We've got to educate families to fireproof themselves. 800-273-8255. Tim Ryan, A&E dope man. Could you tell me, because I have never used a drug, an illegal drug. When you take heroin, what feeling goes through your body? So I never glamorized heroin use, but the way I will explain it, I was over a year clean and sober when I tried heroin. I was going to 12 set meetings, but I like to sponsor myself and I thought I could get sober through osmosis. I did it my way. And I took a guy to Chicago to

move out of his apartment. His roommate pops out. What are you doing? I said, I'm moving out, Joel. What are you doing? He said, heroin. You want to try some? When I snorted that first bag of heroin in 2001, I thought, wow, this is what I'm looking for. This is it. And for the first three weeks, I did a bag or two a day. I was able to work. I thought I had more energy, and then I ran out. And I got profusely sick and found out I was dope sick, and I never ran out. But it's, I mean, pain pills, Oxycontin, all the things the doctor mentioned are there to relieve your pain. But so quickly, I mean, if I took a thousand people and put them in an auditorium and locked the door and I gave them

all opiates for a week straight, every person at the end of that week will be addicted to opiates. That's how powerful they are. And what's happening today is this, these younger generations and it's it, the older aren't drinking beer they're going right from weed to pain pills to heroin that quickly i mean the youngest heroin addict i've worked with is 12 years old the oldest is 78 this affects everybody mark tate is with me a lawyer who is actually suing the drug companies mark tate you know I really don't know how you do it. You have so many cases and you are a veteran lawyer, very well respected. Mark, tell me in a way that we can all understand, why are you suing drug companies, Mark Tate? I'll tell you why, Nancy.

It's a terrible story of what's happened, and it's all about massive pharmaceutical companies and the power that they have to shape the way Americans and the rest of the world think, but especially in the United States. And here, first of all, we're one of two countries in the entire world where drug manufacturers can market directly to the public. And we see the ads all the time, go ask your doctor if you should take this drug, ask them if you should take this drug. And so here, the pharmaceutical industry is touched on, you know, in part by Dr. Maroney. They contrived this notion, number one, that these drugs are used to treat what is your fifth vital sign and number two then they said

and came out with and published in the american journal of medicine that opioid medications were not addictive and then the first companies put people out into the medical public, and they're called drug reps or detail reps. And those detail reps were trained to go to surgeons and say, listen, what you really need is you need to be able to perform your surgical interventions on your patients, and then you need them to be pain free from that surgery, completely pain free. And no, Oxycontin is not is not addictive. And no, hydrocodone is not addictive. And no, fentanyl is not addictive.

And so the reason that they did that is the massive profits that they make, because, you know, the cost of manufacturing these drugs is very small in comparison to some other drugs. And so the profit margin is massive. And so I started to see some time ago that some folks were trying to sue individual medical doctors for overprescribing, and those lawsuits generally did not fail. So about a year and a half, two years ago, I, along with a former partner of mine, approached Fulton County, Georgia, because they, very powerful adversary by suing drug companies. With me, Mark Tate. Kind of feels like a David and Goliath scenario. Nanette Sosa, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Nanette, why is it being termed an epidemic, a crisis? And I noticed that the president just declared war on the opioid crisis.

But I recall Nanette Sosa when I first started as a district attorney in inner city Atlanta, the elected D.A., Louis Slayton, sent me to the Hill. In other words, the assembly, the Georgia legislature, to push anti-crime issues. And the politicians were forever making this proclamation and that law and this law, but then they wouldn't give in any money. So the laws meant nothing. I mean, I could order somebody to drug rehab every day of the week, but without a drug rehab facility, there were not enough beds. So they would sit in jail for a year waiting. Their time would be done. They'd get out without ever getting rehab.

So when you put a law on the books, that's a joke. That means nothing unless you give it the money. Nanette Sosa, what are the stats? Why is it being called an opioid epidemic, a crisis in the U.S.? It's called an epidemic because it's been so overprescribed by physicians. For a while, beginning in the 90s, there was an underprescription problem. People complained. So because of that, regulators became involved and said, well, let's loosen these regulations so physicians can prescribe more pain pills.

And so as a result, users then became addicted after being prescribed. Today, people who are using or had been prescribed massive amounts of opioids for their pain can no longer get prescriptions. Now they're hitting the streets and using it illegally. Dr. William Maroney, let's talk about statistics. Why is it being called a crisis, an epidemic? Explain that to me. Here's the number one reason why. The numbers are going up so fast. In 2015, there were 52,404 overdoses. In 2016, CNN, the CDC, and the New York Times quoted 64,000 opioid overdose deaths. I project in my book, American Narcan for 2017, we will have over 70,000, almost 79,000 overdoses. And by 2020, we will have over 100,000 overdoses in America because the first wave, the second wave, and the third wave are just happening so fast.

It's outpacing medical education. It's outpacing criminal justice. I'm listening to Dr. William Maroney, author of a brand new book, America Narcan, Opioid Expert. Tim Ryan, A&E's dope man with me, Nanette Sosa, Mark Tate, Tim Ryan. My husband had a very, very dear friend that he worked with for years and years and years. And he had the apple of his eye. It was his son. Okay. I don't know if you've ever seen the Harry Potter series, but I always think of Cedric Diggory, who his father just, you know, worshiped his son. And then his son dies. And the pain you see, that reminds me of this father. This father's son, my husband's friend, all A's, great student, cross-country track star in some private school. I mean, everything. You couldn't even see this guy

at the grocery store that I'm showing you pictures of. The son at this track made. He won this. He did that. His son tried heroin, Tim. He tried heroin. After the first time, he got addicted. The father immediately sent him to the best addiction recovery center he could find in the whole United States.

He got clean. He came back. He got back on track. The next thing we heard, he died of an overdose. He was 17, Tim, 17. It's people you don't expect. You know, it's people out on the street. It's junkies. It's the waitress at the Waffle House. It's across all races. It's the rich white kid. It's everybody, Tim Ryan. It's you. It's your son. He's dead because of an overdose. Explain it to people that don't understand that have never used opioids. So, you know, we have to understand here, this is the new in drug. When I'm dealing with kids or family members struggling, I wanted to fit in the pressure. I just wanted to try it. And if you try it that

one time, that's it. And as the doctor said, from five years ago when I was using to now, it's not just heroin. It's fentanyl. Fentanyl is a thousand times stronger than pure heroin. Even a lot of these pills that kids think they're buying is Zanax bar. It's crushed. It's pure fentanyl. You know, it's everywhere. We need much more education.

And the thing I hear from families, not my family, we live in a good community. We go to church on Sunday. So what? You need to know who your friends are involved with. Be into their technology. This affects everyone. The big misconception, Nancy, is the heroin addict is a homeless person on the corner with the needle in their arm.

My son never used a needle. He snorted heroin and his buddy gave him a bar of Xanax. The average heroin addict today is a 22 year old white middle-class female and a 23 year old white middle-class male. I am in the middle of central Illinois right now in farm communities. I'm speaking at three high schools today. One high school has 400 students. They've had 10 overdose deaths in this little community in the past year. This is everywhere. It's not going away. It's getting much, much worse. But what else is happening, too? We need laws like the Good Samaritan Law. When I speak in high schools all over the country, none of the students know what the Good Samaritan Law is. And the Good Samaritan Law is When I speak in high schools all over the country, none of the students know what

the good Samaritan law is. And the good Samaritan law is if me and you are doing drugs together and you overdose, I can call 911. The police will come, hopefully save your life, take the drugs, leave. Nobody gets arrested. Because when my son died, he was with his girlfriend and two other friends. They knew Nick was overdosing, and they panicked. They were afraid to call the police. They had drugs. They didn't know about the law. They put him on the sofa.

He was breathing. They went in the basement, did more drugs, forgot about him, came up an hour later, and Nick was dead. You know, I've been reading online, and I want to go back to the Good Samaritan Law you're talking about. I read a story about a mom named Kim Ferenick. She lost her daughter Dana to a drug OD. Now listen to Dana. She was on the high school swim team, a cheerleader in junior high and high school, her whole life ahead of her. She got into a cycle of addiction, treatment, relapse, addiction, treatment, relapse. She got her straight out of one relapse and took her on a vacation to Wildwood.

And this is the part that broke my heart. She says, I remember this trip like it was yesterday because for that week, I felt like I had my daughter back. But right after coming back home, she found her daughter face down cold and blue. She died of an opioid overdose. She is pushing Naloxone. Dr. Maroney, what is Naloxone? Naloxone is the generic name for one of the brands, Narcan. It's been out for 40 years. Surgery and the emergency room have used naloxone as an injectable to reverse anesthesia and overdose in the hospital. We need to change the model. We need to put generic naloxone or branded Narcan in every home in America to prevent children, parents, and spouses from dying. And this is so obvious because opioids have run rampant and the translation to heroin is transparent.

It's just so easy. If you're taking high doses of opioids, it's simple to crush them, inject them or snort them. And as soon as you do that, there's no difference than heroin. So people make that transfer. And the only way we're going to stop people from dying is putting naloxone or Narcan in the homes. We have to educate people with books and movies and videos. You know, I want to talk about the fact that, Tim Ryan, so often people get addicted or they try heroin or an opioid for the first time because it's offered by a friend that they know or a

family member. That's how they get into it, Tim. I agree. And with prescription pain pills, 55% of the kids that get started on pain pills, get them from a family member or a friend. So Johnny on the track team hurts his knee. dad says well you know what i've got some vicodin from when i had my back surgery take a few of these or these parents are having unused prescriptions left in their medicine cabinet get rid of them because johnny comes over to cut your lawn and says hey nancy can i use your bathroom? Sure you can, Johnny. He goes in, he's rifling through your cabinet, taking all your unused prescription pain meds. And Narcan is essential. But I want to take Narcan a step further. It's a tool to save a life. But what's happening, I just had a kid overdose Saturday night. His mother called me, the paramedics came,

they revived him. He refused to go to the hospital, and they just left. They didn't bring in any peer recovery support specialists to talk to this kid. Twelve hours later, he overdosed again. See, every time I overdosed, as soon as I got clarity, I was out of the hospital. I would like to see a law put into place to where if someone overdoses and is brought back by Narcan through a paramedic or law enforcement, they're remanded to treatment on the spot. If they did not have that drug, they would be dead. And we're letting them walk out of the hospital three hours later. It's so important what he just said, because we do not let people have

heart attacks at home and say, I'm not going to go to the hospital. Before we head back into fact-finding, a thank you to another partner making our program possible, and it is Circle. Circle. Circle with Disney. You know, it's so easy to just read a script going through all of the features, but I want to talk parent to parent. You know, we all know the internet has so much to offer our children. They're going to grow up only knowing a world with the internet. That's not the way we grew up, but there are parts, corners of the internet you don't want your children going to it's hard enough to monitor what your children are up to online 24 7 365 there is an endless list of complicated technical expensive solutions that require an it tech pro to come install hardware and software on your home that if that

affects everybody in the family but there's an answer it's's Circle with Disney. It's a little device designed for families to manage content and time online for all the devices in your home. You can filter content, set up time limits. You can even set a bedtime. It's easy to set up, which is good for me. And everybody in the family can have their own setting. And that way your children don't end up in scary parts of the internet where you don't want them to be. But mom and dad can still use the internet to get their work done. I mean, I certainly don't want my children researching the spots I'm on where I'm researching heinous crimes. I don't want them there. So long story short, this is what you do with Circle Disney. You keep them safe, but you still use the internet as you wish.

Use offer code Nancy at circlewithnancy.com to get $10 off your Circle plus free shipping. Again, circlewithnancy.com. Offer code Nancy. Circlewithnancy.com. Off offer code Nancy, $10 off your Circle and free shipping. Circle, I want to thank you for making the Internet a safer place for my two 10-year-olds. Mark Tate is a high-profile lawyer actually suing the drug companies. Mark Tate, do you really think you've got a chance? 100% I think we have a chance because all of the things that both Tim and Dr. Maroney have been talking about that are necessary and have become necessary to handle all of the things that are going on because of the intentional misconduct of the pharmaceutical companies and their distributors, those are the costs that we're talking about. And those costs extend even to law enforcement that counties and cities and states

are bearing regarding every officer now having to carry Narcan, every first responder having to carry Narcan, all of these issues about overdoses. We have instances in which counties have had to expand their coroner's units in order to house the bodies of overdose victims in places and counties that are fortunate enough to have their own county public health systems. Huge costs are being borne by the taxpayers ultimately in order to essentially subsidize the vast profits of companies like AmerisourceBergen and Cardinal Health and Purdue Pharma and Janssen Pharmaceutical. And all of these companies are subjected to practices that are uniform in the country, acts that are uniform in the country, Controlled Substances Act and Pharmaceutical Practices Act. But the issue is, and what we will overcome because finally communities tired of bearing costs, is what happened to the first lawsuit we filed to Fulton County. One of the defendants came to Fulton County and said, we want to open a

distributorship here, but gee, there's this lawsuit pending. That company forced Fulton County to dismiss their first lawsuit. Fulton County finally said, no, we're spending too much money taking care of overdosing people and outfitting our task force and indigent burials that we're going to refile. And that lawsuit is now pending again, and they're not the only one. Nanette, so that's certainly a fine how-do-you-do that the government is spending too much money on indigent burials because of overdoses. In other words, so many people are ODing, they don't have enough money to pay for their burials. Yes and no. And is that the true crux of the problem? And I'm going to give you an example, Nancy. In Barnstable over in Cape Cod, Barnstable Jail, when they

release their inmates who are addicts, they are now providing them with Vivitrol injections. It's an antabuse in addition to required therapy. And these inmates, even though they've served their time and have been released and they're drug addicts, they are now giving them Vivitrol. Vivitrol is not cheap, $1,200, $1,500 bucks an injection. I'm sure the jail is getting a break on the cost. I don't know about that, but it's expensive. So this is one community that's taking their people who are coming out of jails, who are drug addicts, and trying to rehab them. On the flip side, people who are taking Vivitrol have laughed. I've talked to them where they said, yeah, but we can just use another substitute drug or use some alcohol. And we know how to plan it out just to make it under the wire of pretending that we're clean and sober when they're not. So it's a double edged sword there. And as far as burying indigent people and so forth, a lot of the communities in the lawsuits, I'm sure, such as Tate Law Firm, the communities want to recoup the costs that they're spending extra on emergency services and ER costs.

So I don't think that's right. You don't think the community saying about indigent deaths is one reason why they cannot invest in diversion programs. I think what they're saying is that they're following the lawsuit because the expense of opioid ODs has become astronomical. Tim Ryan, A&E's dope man, I'm following up on something Nanette Sosa said, and I've been reading so many true life stories online and pairing them with the people I worked with when I was prosecuting. What you have to do to break free of this, and one thing is no alcohol, no smoking, nothing. Why is it so important that you break ties with old friends,

change your phone number, no alcohol, smoking, nothing, admit your mistakes and go to Narcotics Anonymous meetings? Why are those steps so important? Because you have to understand what the big misconception families have is I sent my loved one to treatment. A, the average opiate addict goes to treatment six times. So if we, and that's why, you know, I'm with rehab.com. I work for a treatment center because I want people to come once and hopefully grasp everything, but getting away the substances, you got to work with the underlining trauma,

but then living recovery is a whole different gamut. We need people going into long-term structured sober living communities. They have to learn to put recovery first. Me being five years clean and sober, I still attend four 12-step meetings a week. I still have a sponsor and I always sponsor at least one person. My job, my speaking events, writing a book, everything else I do is my career. My recovery is a complete lifestyle. You need to change people, places, and things. And I'll go back to my son, Nick, that died. We always had great insurance. I didn't know I could send my son out of state and put him in a long-term 90-day program. He would do three weeks,

he's out the door to the same people, places, and things, his chances of success were slim to none. In hindsight, I would have done things totally different. And that's what I'm trying to do now. What do you mean? What would you have done differently, Tim Ryan? I would have got Nick on a plane and I would have sent him down to Florida in a minute or sent him to a long-term treatment program like my program transformation treatment center which is my employer i can put someone in there with good insurance on a 90-day structured program and it's gender specific he could do 12-step baits he can do christian bait well i noticed the same thing tim that when people would get out of jail, they just go back.

I guess they don't know what else to do. They just go back to the same people they knew before, and history repeats itself. But I want to ask you about the other issues. Why is it so important that you don't have any alcohol, smoking, nothing? Why do addicts say that? Well, you have to understand once you've went into the opiate world, there's no going back. So you get people that get on Vivitrol and they might not have the cravings for opiates, but that's another tool. You still need to be

living recovery. But if I go back to smoking some weed, drinking, I will ultimately go back to my drug of choice. If you sober up a horse thief, what do you have? You have a sober thief. So you need to teach that person how to live life without altering their mind. And what I ask people is what's so wrong with you that you need to be altered? You need to get to the underlining clauses and conditions. And I looked at my life and I had a lot of trauma. I was adopted. I had an older brother that was a narcissist that beat me up all the time. I had learning disabilities. I was molested by a female babysitter at 12. Boom, there's all my trauma that was never dealt

with. Drugs and alcohol became my solution. Why is it, Tim Ryan with A&E's Dope Man, also with me, Dr. William Maroney, author of American Narcan, Mark Tate, high-profile lawyer suing drug companies, and investigative reporter for Crime Stories, Nanette Sosa. Why is it so important, Tim Ryan, that you change your phone number and break ties with all of your old friends? That's hard to do, Tim. Well, it is. And I'm going to go back to the people in prison or county jails. Here's the problem. You take me, an opiate addict or an addict in general, and lock me in jail for two years, give me no tools, no resources, and release me. Within 30 days, I'm going to be back to using. That's what we do. We're creatures of habit. In our institutions, we need more 12-step-based, Christian-based, smart recovery, refuge recovery, therapeutic communities within the jail. We need drug pods so people can start

working on themselves, why they're incarcerated, and we need wraparound services for when they're getting out. The one key factor that people don't have is jobs. They can't get a job because they're a felon now. They might not have graduated high school and they have no opportunity. They have nothing to look forward to and they go back to what they know. But you've got to change every aspect of your life. 99% of the people I associate with are in recovery. I have no business being around people that I don't go hang out at bars. I don't go to parties.

I just have no business doing it. But it took me a long time to want to change that. And you don't have to go to the depths I went to at 44 years old, getting sentenced to seven years in prison. And I want families to know, and I'm not doing it to plug my book, but if you've got a family member struggling, go to Amazon, get my book, A Man in Recovery from Dope to Hope by Tim Ryan, and you will understand why that person does what they do, because I explain everything in there. And it's a tool for people getting sober

and active addiction or family members that have a loved one's drug one. I want to point out this statistic that Dr. William Maroney first told me, author of American Narcan. Drug overdoses last year killed more Americans than the entire wars in Vietnam and Iraq. The opioid epidemic last year killed more Americans than the entire wars in Vietnam and Iraq. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.