Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Tiger King Juror: " Jury cried when Joe Exotic convicted."

Episode Date: April 29, 2020

The Netflix docu-series 'Tiger King' has many talking about the life of Joe Exotic and whether or not he deserves to be in jail, despite having hired a hit man to kill Carole Baskin. But what did the jury really think? Listen to Kristen as she tells Nancy Grace what went on inside the courtroom. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. At a time when we are all pulling together to fight coronavirus, COVID-19, I have something for you. An all free e-chapter on coronavirus crimes and how to fight them. Don't be a coronavirus crime victim from door-to-door sales of fake

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Hit the link and download it for free. Arm yourself against criminals and scam artists, cons, that will not only take advantage of you, but take advantage of you, your parents, your grandparents, the people you love at a time when we are all fighting the virus. I hope you go to CrimeOnline.com and download this. It's been highly researched and presented for you for free. Goodbye, friend. Keep the faith. How many of you, like me, have watched the Netflix so-called documentary on Joe Exotic? Not his real name.

The so-called Tiger King. But is that just a show? Is that real? Their numbers are skyrocketing through the roof for the Tiger King. But what is the truth? What really happened in a court of law? Many of the jurors are afraid to speak out, but we managed to track down one juror, Kristen, who will tell you the truth of why Joe Exotic is behind bars in a federal penitentiary. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining us now is a very special guest, Kristen, who actually sat on the Joe Exotic trial.

Kristen, thank you for being with us. Thank you. Kristen, I don't know if you saw the Netflix special or the Fox Network special on Joe Exotic, but I've got a pretty good idea. It was very different than what happened in the courtroom. Would you agree with that? Oh, I absolutely agree with that. It was a completely different story than what we heard. And you know, it's so crazy to me as a former prosecutor to hear people actually approach the president asking for a pardon for Joe Exotic when you guys went through all this evidence. Let me just start at the

beginning. When you first saw Joe Exotic in that courtroom, how did he appear? Well, he looks much smaller than he does, than he did on the special. He had the mullet and he had some jewelry, not much, but the suit that he was wearing was way too big for him, so it kind of swallowed him and made him look even smaller. So, yeah, he was not impressive, and he looked much older than he did on the docuseries. Let me ask you a question regarding the evidence. We've heard it said over and over and over on TV, in the media.

There was no evidence that he handed over money to Alan Glover for a hit. Well, I disagree. Alan Glover took the stand, and there were so many hours of tape recordings. I mean, tell me what you thought was the strongest evidence requiring the hitman counts. Kristen, I know you guys look at a lot of counts. The Lacey counts for wildlife. The endangered species counts.

Shooting the tigers. A lot. But on the hitman aspects, murder for hire. What do you think, Kristen, was the strongest evidence that convinced you it really happened? That is a real easy question. We did hear a lot of recordings and we saw a lot of text messages and that kind of thing that had to do with Alan Glover, but then with the undercover FBI agent. And I can't think of his name now, but there was a long recording of him meeting Joe and we could have convicted on both murder for hire counts based on one sentence that Joe said which was the first guy that I hired to kill her ran away with my three thousand dollars now we're gonna try this again and and something to that effect obviously not word for word um and like how

much would you charge me or that kind of thing but one sentence we could have convicted him on on both counts so this was the recording with the undercover that the fed the undercover agent right yes is it true he had a a meeting about murder for hire at an applebee's um i don't recall that this uh recording that we heard was uh actually at the zoo uh the first probably 10 minutes was just them walking with no talking at all. And then he met him, I believe in the, I think they said it was like an office near the gift shop. And that's where they sat down and talked about it. Now, this is the Fed, the undercover agent, right? Yes. Yes. You know, Kristen, I've got so many questions for you, but regarding the evidence, when Joe Exotic would be heard talking about murdering Carol Baskin, what was his demeanor was he afraid was he worried he was going to get caught

was he cavalier was he laughing what was his demeanor during all those recordings uh his demeanor in the courtroom or on the tape he was laughing he it was all a big joke to him. I think he really thought that he was going to get away with it. He sounded angry in some of them, but mostly he was just laughing. So let me understand, Kristen. Was it a big joke? Or was it for real? Did he really pay to have her killed?

It was absolutely real. I mean, there was not a second of discussion and deliberations about whether or not he meant it. We all absolutely believe that he wanted her dead. And so I think the laughing part of it was that he was thinking about how happy he would be when it actually happened. You know, I've listened to a lot of, a lot of people, higher hit men, believe it or not. And I've never heard one laughing about it, that it was just a big joke that this woman was going to be shot dead. So what was Joe Exotic's plan as to how to kill Carol Baskin? What did he want to happen to her? Oh, he had a few different plans. Um, at one point they talked about, um, uh, about Glover hiding on the, off the trail where she would ride her, her bike to work and that he could just shoot her from there. I think that at one point they, it was talked about that he could

cut her head off. And I mean, it was, it was all different scenarios that they would talk about. I really don't think he even cared how it happened. He just wanted it to happen. Kristen, you know, when something like that would come out in court, every juror would turn and look at the defendant. Did you ever look over at him when those recordings were being played about cutting her head off or shooting her off her bike? Yeah, he was right in front of me um he was uh in my direct line of vision so I watched his reaction a lot to things um and he didn't really react he he Sometimes he would lean over and whisper something to one of his attorneys,

but there wasn't any major reaction at all. Man, I would hang my head down if a recording was played back where I wanted somebody's head cut off, have somebody murdered. He just sat there like it was nothing, Kristen. Yeah. He, he just didn't seem to, to believe that that was going to be enough to convict him. And, uh, and I think, um, well, like I said, we didn't really talk about it, um in deliberations but i don't think anybody really had any sympathy for him um wow why do you say that is that did y'all talk about that in the jury room the jury deliberations room oh we did we talked about just a little bit because out of the three and a half hours that we were in deliberations, only maybe 20 minutes of it talked about the two murder for hire charges.

The rest of the time we talked about the animal charges. So we talked about how he would, his attorney would ask him a question and he would go way too far with the answers and his attorney would have to stop him. He offered up far more information than what his attorney obviously wanted him to, to let us know. So we talked about things like that, but, um, nobody, I mean, there, there were people that felt bad if he would have to go to prison. I wasn't one of those people, but there were jurors that, that, um, were sad about that. And I just, Okay, Kristen, whoa, wait a minute. They were sad because

the guy that shot Tiger's dead in the cage, he was not being attacked. The tiger was not trying to attack anybody else. He just shoot it dead in the cage. And you hire a hitman not once but twice to

kill a lady on her bike or cut off her head some jurors actually felt bad he would have to go to jail are you serious we had a few jurors that were crying when we went back into the courtroom and i i was, like I said, I wasn't one of those people. We had a job to do. And I actually watched his reaction. Some of the other jurors kept their heads down. But I just felt bad. They kept their heads down?

Were they embarrassed? I think they just felt bad um i just didn't i i felt like he deserved it crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Was he that likable, Kristen? Was he likable when he took the stand? Tell me how he did on the stand. Maybe he was sympathetic on the stand and some of the jurors felt some kind of connection to him.

Well, I didn't, that's for sure. But he was a fake crier. I was pretty close to him, so I could tell that when he was wiping his face there were no tears but he did make a grand gesture of it um i love it when people fake cry in court okay when you say he made a gesture please tell me what he would do i have to know this, Kristen. He would wipe both of his eyes and flick the tears away. And, I mean, I think he felt like we were in the splash zone of his tears. He was flicking them so hard. But there was no tears. That was all fake.

When you say flick, he would actually wipe wipe his eyes real hard and make this big flicking motion with his hands. You're flicking water off your hands. Okay. I got it. He did that in court. He did. Yeah. And I just, I was just dumbfounded at some of the things he did. Oh, please tell me what dumbfounded you. What else did he do in court? Well, the one that stands out the most is that his attorney was asking him about where he was one day when he got a phone call and what he did when he got that phone call. And I think he said he was in Oklahoma City or Edmond or something. And so he headed back to the zoo. But they stopped at a motel on the way and filmed a softcore porn.

And his attorney was just shaking his head. And he said, okay, that's enough. And had to remind him. Let me just drink that in kristen hold on so he's in oklahoma city and he's on the way back and he stopped at a motel to watch a little porn did i get that right no to film a soft core porn. Whoa! Okay, wait. Wait. Yeah. He just pulled off and filmed some porn.

Yes. I mean, it was bad enough when I thought you said he watched some porn. I didn't know you said he filmed. Okay. All right. Okay, since that's not a felony, I'll proceed. I wonder who he's filming the porn with.

I don't know, but I am sure that I wasn't the only juror that was afraid that might come into evidence and we'd have to watch it. Okay, wait a minute. Let me get my head off Joe Exotic filming porn. And that's going to be hard to do, and I'm going to move on. So what else did he do in the courtroom besides admit, without being asked that he was filming porn, what else did he do in court? It was just a lot of trying to elaborate on certain things. When they would ask a question, he would try to sneak in other things.

Like he would say, if it wasn't for her first dead husband, and then they would object, or it was things like that. And of course, we had no idea what he was even talking about, but he did try to sneak things in. Looking back on it, I remember a few of those things, but the prosecution stopped him pretty quickly, and we never even talked about it. We didn't even know what it was about. Did you guys in court see any of his show that he filmed where he would talk about wanting carol baskin's head in a jar did you see any of that on and i guess on youtube did you get to see any of that we did we um the in the jury box um

there was one monitor for every two people so we got to see all of that right in front of us and um when he shot the blow-up doll i think everybody jumped we didn't see that coming um and just you know the the head in the jar all those kind of things that it was very disturbing to see um but yeah we saw all of that we didn't see any of his music videos but we did see little parts of his his internet show and you gotta see the music videos oh i i have seen them since and uh once was enough that That was enough for me. But yeah, he claimed that he had a million followers for his internet show. And I think that's,

he didn't say too much more about that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Why do you think, why do you think, I mean, I have an opinion, but why do you think he hated Caroleol baskin so much he wanted to kill her well i i think that um i i think that he um didn't like that she well obviously he didn't like that she was attacking him for having the cubs but also there was the uh the million dollar

lawsuit um which he brought on himself for for naming his company right you know almost the same name as hers big i think it was entertainment i think yeah and the logo was so similar um but i think that i think it all came down to just getting even he just wanted revenge for her um saying anything bad about his his zoo and he just became obsessed with it. What did you make of the first would-be hitman, Alan Glover? What did you think about him? Well, he, in my opinion, he had either been drinking or he had been doing some drugs. I don't know, but when he was on the stand, his eyes were bloodshot.

He was real sweaty. He was just obviously very uncomfortable. I found him believable. And I think probably the other jury members did too, since nobody even questioned that in deliberations um i don't think he ever intended to kill her or try to kill her when he told joe that he would i think all along he was just going to take the money and run um yeah i just i found him believable. I, I know that he has a path. Well, did you ever actually, oh yeah, yeah, but I mean, who do you think is going to be hanging out with Joe Exotic,

nuns and priests and virgins? No. Right. What do you make, I understand that Alan Glover had issues, but no one challenged his credibility. You believed him. What about the undercover agent? You know, I was thinking about that the other day, and I can't even remember what he looks like. I know he took the stand, but I just don't remember much about his testimony at all. I guess I believe Gerritsen, he's pretty much the one that gave all the information about it Joe asked him to do,

be involved in the fake ID and the phone and that kind of thing. I felt like he was very – Which fake ID are you talking about? Well, there was – I want to say it was in – oh, I don't remember where it was at, but they went to some sort of the, the undercover agents, fake ID. Well, it had to do with, um, oh, it actually may be. Yeah. I'm just, I, I remember them talking about a fake ID and, and for some reason I'm thinking it was for Glover, but I could be wrong.

Yep. Let me ask you this. You had to listen to all the tapes of the federal agent speaking to Joe Exotic as Exotic was trying to get him to kill Baskin. Were the tapes believable? Oh, yeah. Absolutely believable oh yeah absolutely believable um the undercover agent was just um he talked like uh like he actually lived at the park you would never know that he wasn't um wasn't the kind of person that uh garrison would hang out with um i can see why joe had no idea that he was was an fbi i guess you now know that joe exotic not his real name has filed

a multi-million dollar lawsuit claiming that he was entrapped that the government set him up lured him into this what do you make of that kristen oh i think that he's is he's grasping at straws there's there was absolutely no evidence of a setup at all um everything everything that we were given as far as evidence was either in a video or recording or text messages or email. Everything was documented in some way. And it was really just a matter of sitting down and going through it and putting things together. And there was really no question about his guilt on any of the charges. So you're telling me that you guys, once you got in jury deliberations, taught for about 20 minutes about two hit men to kill Carol Baskin,

and the rest of the nearly four hours was about the Lacey Act, the Endangered Species, the Wildlife Act. Why do you think you guys devoted so much time to what happened to the animals? Well, we had to go through all the documents, and we went through those one by one. And then there was one juror that wanted to go through them a second time. But it was just kind of matching things up and trying to make sure that what we were seeing was actually. What the indictment said. Right. Yeah.

Right. It was because these were all forms that we weren't familiar with and and um so yeah we we we only had one juror who um was a holdout for a little bit on the charges um well the the cubs selling the cubs, he was charged one count for each cub that he sold across state lines. And another charge was for falsifying the document, the USDA document. And so each cub, there were two charges and one juror just said, I can't find it. Because there's the act of selling the cub which is against the endangered species act and then there's the

forging of the documents to sell the cub to make it look like the cub was donated or given for a sanctuary so yeah i get it and the one juror got hung up on that. Yeah, she just said, I just don't think I can find him guilty of two charges on each cub. And I said, well, there are two crimes. I mean, he did it. He did both of them. So I don't know. If you find him guilty on one, you almost have to find him guilty on the other. But, I mean, it didn't take long for her to come around. What was the response of the jury, the individual jurors, when there were the counts of shooting tigers in their cages?

Okay, so the story behind those tigers is that there were five tigers that were kept in three cages. And somebody wanted to board three tigers there and pay to board them. And Joe didn't have any empty cages. So he pulled those five tigers out to empty those cages. And he shot those tigers and buried them in it on his property to make money for boarding that's how little the tigers meant to him and how much money meant to him and that was probably the most disturbing thing of anything he did. They had a vet come on who had records for those tigers and they were all healthy. They were all between, I think she said nine and 12 years old and tigers can live to be

17 or 18. So they were, they had plenty of life left. And Joe had tried to say that they were all old and they were sick and that he was putting them out of their misery and it was absolutely not true. Did he shoot them right there in their cage? I believe he pulled them out one at a time. He injected something so that they would fall asleep and then he shot him in the head. Who testified to that, Kristen? I know that Eric, I believe it's Cowley, he was the first one that testified. He took care of those tigers. So he testified about that. In fact, one of them, his name was Cuddles, and he was very close to that tiger. And he started crying on the stand

when he was talking about it. I believe John Finley talked about it too. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now that you've seen the Netflix special and there's been so much discussion of it, how do you compare, and I'm not trashing the Netflix special, I watched it too. How do you compare what you saw there to what you saw in court? Because most people believe what they see on TV. They don't get that the jury heard evidence that led them to a verdict.

How do you compare that crazy series of Netflix to what really happened in real life? Well, I have a friend who had said to me that this was a docudrama, not a documentary or a docuseries, and that's exactly what it was. They created storylines that not only we didn't see, but they didn't show what we did see. They didn't include that there was evidence about the hitman and they didn't tell the story behind the tigers and they made him out to be almost a victim. They made him seem lovable and that he was such a good guy. it just wasn't even the same story. It did a huge injustice to the jury because now people think that we convicted him based on absolutely nothing. And I know it didn't take us long to deliberate, but that's because we were handed everything we needed. And I think his ego was so big that he really thought that

that there was no way he'd be found guilty. Kristen, what was his reaction when guilty was read out in the courtroom? He put his head down. He was obviously upset. He at one point looked each juror in the face and was kind of shaking his head and I can tell you that I didn't get the feeling that his attorneys were surprised at all but you know they also

can remain stoic during verdicts of all the trials I've seen. So I don't think that's an indication of anything, but he was surprised. Kristen, what has your life been like since the verdict and since the documentary, or as you say, docudrama, aired on Netflix? Well, I mean, after the trial, and I could tell people, you know, what trial I was a juror on, and they had some questions, but not tons. But now once this came out, my friends and my friend's friends ask a lot of questions about him and what it was like in the courtroom. And I mean, I can't answer a lot about a lot of the people that were on the show because not all of them took the stand.

Only some of them did. And I was honestly disappointed that Jeff Lowe didn't take the stand. I did kind of want to hear how he was tied into it all. But he never took the stand. I mean, do people act like you did the wrong thing? Some of them now do. Yeah, they'll say, what did you convict him on there was nothing there there was no evidence and i said well that's because that wasn't a courtroom show that wasn't they didn't show the trial they showed you what they want you to believe

and you just have to remember that that is all for entertainment. That is shock value. And, you know, don't believe everything you see because it really, there was so much more to it than what they're showing you. When you look back on it, Kristen, how do you feel about the whole thing? I absolutely feel like we made the right decision. I think that, um, I think that he deserved what he got. Um, there's, there is no doubt in my mind at all that, uh, he did every single thing in those charges. So I feel very confident with the decision we made. I'm just so grateful that we've gotten to actually see you and hear you because it makes me know that the jury did the right thing. I don't have to question it because I've met a juror,

I've heard you talk about the evidence, and how you reasoned it. Kristen, thank you from all of us. Can I just say one quick thing? Please. On this last show, Netflix show that they added, his campaign manager said that the reason that he was found guilty is because Oklahomans don't like Joe Exotic and Oklahomans don't like gays. Well, I can tell you when I walked in the courtroom, I didn't know who he was. So I had that had nothing to do with that. And as far as gay people that I it is so insulting that anybody would say that about the jury that that that was the reason that we came to that verdict I can tell you in deliberations

we didn't talk about his husband's we didn't talk about his sexual orientation we didn't talk about anything like that So I just want that to be cleared up, that that had no part in our decision. Kristen, thank you for clearing that up. I'm so glad you brought it up. Thank you for being with us. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.