Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Timid Honor Student Son, 13, Stabs Mom Dead Sleeping With Infant

Episode Date: November 6, 2023

Derek Rosa is not your typical 13-year-old boy: He is on the honor roll with neighbors saying he is exceedingly nice and the model son. Irena Garcia, 39, just gave birth to a baby girl. So it was shocking when the teen called 911, telling the dispatcher that he snuck into the room where his mom and the baby were sleeping and stabbed his mother dead.  As the operator talks to Rosa, he tells her he took pictures of the murder and sent them to a "friend." He also says he then deleted the photos. When pressed for the friend's name, Rosa says it is just somebody he knows online. During his call with 911, Rosa said he had a gun he planned to use to kill himself but decided not to.   Derek Rosa was taken into custody and transported to a juvenile detention center. He was then moved to Jackson Memorial Hospital after he threatened to harm himself. Rosa was initially charged with second-degree murder, but a Miami-Dade grand jury found enough probable cause to indict the teen as an adult and up the charge to first-degree murder. Joining Nancy Grace today: Jason Oshins - Criminal & Civil Attorney  Dr. James Garbarino - Emeritus Professor of Psychology at Cornell University and Loyola University Chicago (specialized in studying what causes violence in children); Author of, “Listening to Killers: Lessons Learned from My 20 Years as a Psychological Expert Witness in Murder Cases”  Master Sergeant Ron Livingston  - Ron Livingston - Sergeant at Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles (30+ years in law enforcement) Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida; Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine; Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference Caitlyn Becker - Senior Reporter for Dailymail.com; Twitter: @caitlynbecker   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous young mom, fast asleep, lying in bed right beside her newborn baby girl is murdered. That's bad enough. The MO, the mode, the method of operation, the modus operandi, itself even more shocking. The young mom stabbed in the neck. That's not all.

Now, behind bars, her 13-year-old son, honor student, described as meek and mild. A young mom, dead in bed, asleep at the time she's stabbed in the neck by her 13-year-old? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. Let's take a listen week old. Okay. And you did not touch her, correct? No, I did not touch her. I didn't want to touch my sister. I need to know if your mom is breathing. She's dead, ma'am. I have the gun with me. I was going to shoot myself, but I didn't want to.

I didn't want to. I pulled back the slide, but I did not shoot. And more. I need to know, do you think we can help your mom? She's dead. I have more family members. They can take care of my sister. I took pictures and I told my friends about it. Was that bad?

You told who about it? My friends. Your friends? Did you send pictures to your friends of what you did? Yeah. I didn't delete the pictures off my phone, but I sent them to him. And I told him that I was sorry, and then I said goodbye. I'm okay. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. Let me understand this. Caitlin Becker is joining me. Senior investigative reporter with DailyMail.com. Caitlin, White. The 13-year-old honor student's son kills mom, stabbing her multiple times in the neck,

and then leaves his 14-day-old little sister alive, takes pictures of his mom dead in the bed and sends them to a friend. Just start at the beginning, Caitlin Becker. Nancy, this case is absolutely baffling. We have no idea what the motive is. This is about 1130 at night. The son, as you said, 13 years old, is awake. Both the baby and mom are asleep.

He goes into the bedroom, allegedly stabs mom to death, like said, leaves the baby untouched. And then he takes a picture, sends it to someone he barely even knows. I mean, he says the word friend in the 911 call. And when the dispatcher asks for a name, he says he doesn't know the friend's actual name. It's just someone that he plays games with online. So not even someone this child is close with. And then he calls 911 on himself. You could hear in the call that he's clearly distraught. And from everything we know about this kid from friends and family, he's an honor student, well-mannered, well-behaved, quiet. This appeared to come out of absolutely nowhere. And his baby sister, who is 14 days old, is a half-sister. So his stepfather, who is a truck

driver, was out of state working this night, so he wasn't there. And we know the gun that the child mentioned in that call belonged to the stepfather. I want to hear that second sound again, Sydney, if you could play that one more time. I need to know, do you think we can help your mom? She's dead. I have more family members. They can take care of my sister. I took pictures and I told my friends about it.

Was that bad? You told who about it? My friends. Your friends? Did you send pictures to your friends of what you did? Yeah. I didn't delete the pictures off my phone, but I sent them to him and I told him that I was sorry and then I said goodbye. I'm okay. I'm really sad. I'm really sad. Joining me right now is high profile lawyer Jason Oceans, New York based, but really practices all over criminal and civil lawyer Jason Oceans. Because each line proves so much. Because you have this young perp who has just stabbed his mom in the neck. The little baby sister, just a few days old, lying there with her. And he says, not only that he did it, but he's speaking.

What can I learn from this 911 call? Just the part that i played so far he is coherent he has taken pictures of his mother this is his bio mom he's taken pictures of her lying dead with her neck stabbed and he has sent them to the friend and he says this one thing this is very important it's critical was that bad people only say was that bad when they know it's bad was that wrong yeah it was wrong yes he's barely barely 13 just uh just 12 a little bit ago so he's not is that what i asked you no you did not ask me that answer you also called him a perp because he murdered his mother right that's clearly he murdered his mother

there's no question and would you disagree that he is not the perpetrator? No, he is the perpetrator. So he is, in fact, the perp. Yes, Nancy. As we break it down, he is the perp. Okay. Back to the original question. In court, I would say something like, as I looked at you glaringly, your honor, may I refresh the

witness's recollection? May I redirect the witness as his answers are unresponsive? And I will ask you again, have you ever had a piece of evidence that the more you looked at it, the more you learned. Just one sentence, one piece of evidence, that clip from that 911 call, that one part of it. Well, as a prosecutor, Nancy, you're looking at critically and you see everything inside your case right there to prove it. I understand where you're coming from. I do not disagree with you. You're going to play that over and over in your head. You're going to play it over and over for the jury. You're going to

play it over and over again. It's quite're going to play it over and over again. It's quite dispositive. There's not much to it. It's a slam dunk. For me as a defense attorney, it goes beyond to mental health. You know, the conference. Is that wrong? That's not a perp.

Is that wrong? That's a little boy. That's a troubled one despite what the outside looked at. Something snapped. Perhaps the birth of a new child. Something happened that made him snap. Well, frankly, unless it's a legal defense. I mean, I see things in everything, as you know, Jason, we're longtime colleagues and friends.

Everything to me now, once you go through law school and once you try cases for a living, you begin to see the world in a different way. Is it probative? Does it prove something? Is it admissible? If it's not admissible, I don't want to hear about it. I only want to know what I can put in front of a jury and what, how I can interpret that and what, is it true? Is it real?

Did this happen? Do i have the right person why i gotta leave that up to a shrink like dr james carborino joining us who specializes in what causes violence in children professor of psychology emeritus cornell and loyola university of chicago wow author of Listening to Killers. Lessons learned from 20 years as a psychological expert witness in murder cases. Okay. I'm reading that. Dr. James Garbarino.

I'm not saying that Jason Oceans is wrong. He's right. He's right. Does that mean that goes into my analysis of how I'm going to prove the case? I care about one thing. Am I getting a true verdict? Am I telling the jury the truth? Am I telling the jury the whole truth? And does what I give the jury advance the truth. It's all I care about. Who did this? Where?

When? Is it in my jurisdiction? And is there a legitimate defense such as self-defense, insanity, accident? But Dr. James Garbarino, I want you to hear our cut three, our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Derek Rosa is not your typical 13-year-old boy. He's on the honor roll in eighth grade. Neighbors say he is exceedingly nice and friendly. He is the model son to his mother and respectful to his stepfather. He has been a big help to his 39-year-old mother, Irina Garcia. She just gave birth to a baby girl a couple of weeks ago. Derek Rosa is a good boy. He is a good boy, Dr. Garbarino. Help me. You know, a lot of the focus of the criminal

justice system is always, as you say, primarily what did they do? Who did it? You know, the kind of work that I've done for the last 30 years as a psychological expert witness really tries to get at who they are. I've worked on a number of kids who killed their parents over the years. You know, a lot of the kids who kill their parents, it's called reactive parasites in response to abuse. But I have worked on cases like this that are mysterious at the outset, because, you know, where does this come from? What does it mean? How do we make sense of it? You know, there are a number of possibilities. It's too early to know. You know, there was a

case in Oregon years ago where a boy killed his parents and it turned out he was slipping into schizophrenia. He was hearing voices. And, you know, the thing about hearing voices in America is a fascinating study that finds that 70 percent of the voices that schizophrenics hear in America tell them to commit acts of violence against themselves or others. Seventy percent. In India, it's 20 percent. In Ghana and Africa, it's 10 percent. So, you know, we need to know what was his inner life like. That's certainly one possibility. I mean, there are other possibilities too that eventually may make sense of this, but it certainly doesn't sound like this is, you know, there's another

case recently where a boy killed his mother because she wouldn't buy him some virtual reality headphones. And he was only, you know, he was even younger than this boy. Nine. I believe he was nine. You know, so we have to try to understand who this is. This doesn't sound like it's the culmination of an increasingly aggressive, antisocial kid who's entitled and maybe narcissistic, maybe even on the road to becoming a psychopath. It doesn't sound like that. It sounds like some very bizarre thing going on in his head that was kept from the adults around him. You know, that boy in Oregon years ago,

he told no one that he was hearing voices. I worked on another case of a 13-year-old actually in Florida who also killed his mother. No history of delinquency or any social behavior. But the more we got to know, the more we saw there was something going on in his head that, again, was telling him to do this in a way that for a young kid is, it can be very powerful. You know, the part of the brain that controls how intense kids feel things, how intense people feel things, it peaks at age 15, 14, 15. So he's right in the period when everything feels more intense. You know, the role of this internet friend and connection,

I mean, that's contaminating in another way. So we're just at the beginning of making sense of this, but I think eventually we will find a way to make'm trying to solve a Rubik's Cube. Joining me, a longtime friend and colleague, Master Sergeant Ron Livingston with the Florida Highway Patrol, 30 plus years in law enforcement. Ron, I want you to take a listen to our cut 12 more of the 911 call. And the reason I keep playing that is because it's very hard for me to look at this kid. And he is a kid, as Jason Oceans accurately pointed out. And his whole past behavior is completely completely opposite of that one act of murder but listen to this 911 call ron livingston i need to know if your mom is

breathing she said there's blood all over the floor. Okay, why did you kill your mom? I need to know. Do you think we can help your mom? Miss, she said, can you bring the police over here where I live? What is your address? Miss. Yes. I took pictures and I told my friends about it.

Was that bad? You told who about it? My friends. Your friends? Did you send pictures to your friends so what you did yeah do not open until i tell you to open the door and to make sure that you have nothing but your cell phone in your hands no they're not gonna kill you we're here to help you okay we're gonna're going to help your family. Okay. Okay. To Master Sergeant Ron Livingston. Ron, if this were an adult, I would be arguing right now how clearly he knows exactly what's going on. He has not had a psychotic break. He is not insane. He knows cops are coming and he says, are they going to kill me? She says, do you have anything in your hands?

He goes, I've got a cell phone. Do you have anything else? No. Are they going to kill me? She says, do you have anything in your hands? He goes, I've got a cell phone. Do you have anything else? No. Are they going to kill me? He knows exactly what's going to happen if cops come to the scene and he's got a gun in his hands. They're going to kill him. So there's no way he's going to be able to argue any kind of insanity. Ron Livingston, have you ever seen anything like this or even closely akin to this?

You know, we've seen this over and over. And, you know, with social media, with, you know, with kids, they're so focused on, you know, social media and, you know, they watch all the bad things that happen out here. And so, you know, the media has portrayed law enforcement, you know, to be bad, which, you know, we're not. We're there to help you. We're there to help everybody. And so I think that's been the biggest, you know, as far as the portrayal of media and stuff as far as law enforcement. So I would assume that's where he's getting this. The law enforcement is going to kill me.

And we're not. We're there to help preserve the scene, to start the investigation. Obviously, we have to make sure the threat is under control. And law enforcement, there is no threat to law enforcement once they arrive. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, joining me, or now a medical examiner out of the state of Florida, lecturer at University of Florida Medical School in the Forensic Medicine Division, founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Dr. Gallagher, this happened in your jurisdiction.

This is in Hialeah. Could you explain to me, is there any way that this new mother, his mother, she's got a little baby girl, 14 days old, and she's sleeping in the room with the baby. Is there any way that the mother didn't feel what happened to her? She was asleep when she was attacked. I don't see a way, but is there a way? Most likely not, you know, unless she was asleep under the influence of some substance. But when people get stabbed and they are sober, they feel every second of it. You know, you don't die from the stabbing. You actually die from bleeding to death. So that takes quite a while. And in that time, you are very, very aware of what's happening to the pain, your surroundings, who is doing bleed to death. So yes, if she was not on the influence of anything that was putting

her asleep, she felt every second of it, knew what was happening and felt her life slipping away from her. Nancy, can I just jump in? Is that Caitlin? Yeah, I just wanted to jump in and add a little detail to that, that he, there were some local reports that while we know that she was stabbed in the bed, her body was discovered on the floor. So I don't know if she had rolled off the bed or had tried to climb out of the bed or if there were going to be defensive wounds, but the body was found on the floor. So that indicates to me that she moved in're saying dr tim gallagher that she knew very well what was happening and was trying to either get away or protect her baby i don't know what she was doing but she did get out of bed what do you make of that dr gallagher well if you think

about the emotional state that she was in you know she just had this baby so she's in the mother bear mode you know she really wants to protect the baby yet. She's being attacked by her son who she's also there to protect because he's really not of age to do that for himself. You know, so she was probably torn between those two circumstances in a, in a very unusual and very critical time of her life there. And just I could see the confusion. I could see, you know, why she was thinking, why is this happening to me? You know, what is going on? And just a very,

very confusing point. And I'd like to know if she did have any defensive wounds on her. But just a crazy, crazy situation. Just very, very unusual. You really found a good case here, Nancy. We know that she was lying on the floor next to the baby's crib. I wonder if she was trying to make her way to the baby. I would hope so. Yeah, I would certainly hope so. Oh, gosh. Guys, we are talking about a 13-year-old boy, Derek Rosa, who is now charged with first-degree murder and the stabbing

death of his own mother lying right next to her, his 14-day-old little sister. Caitlin Becker joining us, DailyMail.com. Caitlin, how many times was the mother stabbed? I don't know the exact number, Nancy, but I do know that it was multiple times. It was a very bloody scene, and it was specifically in that sort of neck and upper region. To Jason Oceans joining us, high-profile lawyer out of New York and New Jersey, you know he is going to be charged as an adult. There's really no choice. What do you make of it?

No disagreement, Nancy. I mean, you know, when you have the direct evidence, as you do as a prosecutor here, you're pretty limited in your defense. I think the approach, Nancy, is, you know, some sort of a plea. And hopefully you're getting him, you know, mental health assistance because as the doctor is going to get something snapped. You do know, Jason Og Jason, which we have discussed many, many times, snapped is not a defense. There's no such thing as I snapped or everybody in the Fulton County jail would say I snapped and they'd all be walking out right now.

Yeah, they'd be snapping and saying it at the same time. But for layman's terms, we understand what that is. A jury would understand that. It's not a defense. It's just discovering the underneath motive, which background doesn't consistent doesn't in any way, you know're dealing with an almost a barely 13 year old just a couple of weeks ago was 12. You're you're constrained in thinking that this young man should spend the rest of his life in prison. It's not death penalty eligible. Supreme Court. I'm not thinking anything right now. The duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice for the state and the state represents the victim, the crime victim. The crime victim in this case is Irina Garcia, just 39 years old when she was brutally murdered, stabbed multiple times as she

lied next to her 14 day old baby girl. That's the interest that I have. I also care about what, if anything, went wrong with this young boy. He is going to be charged as an adult, as he should be. And yes, I have tried a 13 year old for murder. In that case, the 13 year old, six foot3 or 4', broke into a pawn shop, well, crashed into a pawn shop, murdered one, left another in a wheelchair, and a third shot, I believe with a colostomy bag, over a handful of dope ropes, which is gold chains. Is this Dr. Garbarino? Please jump in, Dr. Garbarino. Thank you. You know, I think having worked on a number of these juvenile cases over the years, I mean quite a number, I always think that we need to figure out which group they're in to start with. There is a group, even at 13, as you point out, who are so damaged that it's going to take at least 20 years for them to

recover. They need to get to age 25 when we can presume a mature brain. And then they need at least 10 years to use that mature brain to transform themselves and rehabilitate and educate and all the rest of that. And the evidence is actually pretty good that they can get better. Most of them do. That's really what's come out of the Miller versus Alabama decision about not sending juveniles to life without parole. That's one group. Yeah, you can no longer send a juvenile to life without parole, just like you cannot get a sentence of death penalty on a juvenile. Right. The second group are kids who have basically been intact in childhood, but they have a kind of adolescent crisis. It's often the onset of schizophrenia. It's a drug related thing.

It's, you know, influence of negative peers, a variety of things. The good news about them is most of them actually could be dealt with as a juvenile, setting aside the severity of the crime, which may preclude that for political and moral and legal issues. But they typically, you know, a guy once said to me in prison, how can I get how can I be rehabilitated if I was never habilitated in the first place? And that's an important point. It sounds like this boy was habilitated. So this is a crisis that we need to understand what brought on the crisis, and he could be restored. There is a third group. It's a much smaller group who are, as the Supreme Court said, irreparably corrupt. These are the kids who are simply on their way to becoming full-blown psychopaths. And I've worked on those cases too, where it's not a matter of them getting better. It's not so much a matter of a crisis. It's a matter of something so profoundly

wrong with them that it would take a miracle to, you know, to transform that. So that's why I say we need to understand who this is. I understand as a prosecutor, and I sit across from a lot of prosecutors, you know, one prosecutor in Florida said to me, I live with the stench of death. And I understand that mentality. But, you know, the interest of the state here should also be taking care of this boy. Well, I've got a question for you, Dr. Garbarino. Could the birth of the little baby sister have been some sort of a triggering event for him? Well, certainly could have been.

You know, it seems to have happened in such close time proximity. You know, as I understand it, he was the only child before. Who knows what this meant to him? You know, it's the result of a stepfather impregnating his mother. Who knows what that meant to him? You know, because from a child's point of view, regardless of how good the relationship is with the stepfather, he is an intruder in a sense. So, you know, we have to understand what this meant to him because, you know, I think there's no such thing as senseless act of violence.

It always makes sense, you know, if we get inside the head of the perpetrator enough, it makes sense. We may not accept it. We may not appreciate it, but we have to get there. And I think, you know, I've had some good experiences, even in Florida, where prosecutors have understood this. And so they they're willing to take a plea that involves taking care of this troubled boy. Well, I want you to hear something else, Dr. Garbarino and everyone on the panel. Listen to the boy's behavior afterwards. Take a listen to Hour Cut 7 from our friends at CrimeOnline.com.

Neighbors in Hialeah, Florida, shot footage as police showed up to arrest a killer. The scene, filmed by a neighbor and posted online, is not a crazed maniac. This murderer is a 13-year-old honors student. The boy is standing timidly on the balcony of his apartment as he is on the phone with 911. The boy called to confess and now the 911 operator is giving him instructions. The boy follows the instructions, putting his hands up in the air and obeying the police directly in front of him. When the police finally get close enough, they take Derek Rosa to the ground hard. He's put in handcuffs and taken away. To Caitlin Becker joining us, senior investigative reporter of DailyMail.com,

he clearly is following instructions. He understands what's happening. He is not out of his mind. He's not having a psychotic break break all that is actually going to work against him at trial because he clearly knows what's going on and he knows what he did was wrong caitlyn you hear that sadness and that remorse in the call you can hear him getting choked up and being overwhelmed by his alleged actions i do think that will work against him at trial. But Nancy, on the flip side, at one point, the dispatcher asked him his address. He doesn't know his address. I feel like a defense attorney is going to say this 13-year-old boy who's barely even 13, who didn't even know where he lived, didn't understand the magnitude of his actions, maybe until after it was done.

I don't know. I think that a jury might look at the 911 call and hear this broken little boy calling and talking to the dispatcher and responding to her, no miss, yes miss, and being polite and sort of trying to rectify that version of the child who's on the phone with the brutality of the murder. I think it's going to be tough. To Jason Oceans, a veteran trial lawyer, and I'm going to quote verbatim the law,

one may immediately regret the deed, but that regret does not negate intent at the time of the act. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. There's premeditation here. He has to creep into the mother's room while she lays sleeping. He waits until the moment she is asleep in the dark of the night. He goes in with a knife. He goes into the mother's bedroom with a knife. There are multiple stabs. Premeditation can be formed in the twinkling of a moment. So between each stab is another period in which premeditation can be formed. That's what premeditation means. Now, it may not mean that to a lay person on the street, but the jury, if there is one, will be instructed that that is what premeditation means.

It's not a long, drawn out scheme such as someone poisoning the victim over a period of months or even years. It can be formed in an instant. So he has premeditation. He knows what he is doing is wrong. What about that? And Nancy, I'm not going to disagree with you in any of your approach and your prosecutorial position. You've explained it well. You've articulated it. You're going to go ahead. The only thing I would say relative to being counsel for the defendant is don't over prosecute because he's notwithstanding all of your case, he's still sympathetic at barely 30. Yes, he is. He is to Master Sergeant Ron Livingston joining us

out of this jurisdiction in Florida. Are juveniles this age housed in an adult jail facility? No, ma'am. They will be housed in a juvenile detention facility. In the state of Florida, we're not allowed, juveniles are not allowed to be in a jail with adults longer than six hours. So once they're processed, they're taken out and turned over to the Department of Juvenile Justice. In the last hours, this young man, 13-year-old Derek Rosa, has pled not guilty

in a court of law. And you may be very surprised at what happens in court. Take a listen to our cut A. It's very unfortunate that this tragedy occurred, but this child is very humble, very peaceful. Now you are hearing his father, his biological father, Mr. Rosa, in court. He describes his son as humble and peaceful and more. Take a listen to our cut. B is in brother. It's hard for us to explain how this occurred. You know, it's difficult, but I guess what we're asking for is another opportunity. It's a second chance to help him grow and become mature as a grown man,

to put this behind him and say, we have your back. We're here to support you. Caitlin Becker joining us from DailyMail.com. What happened in court? It was really emotional. Not only was it the young boy's father, it was also his grandmother. They sent some 20 letters of support trying to get him a little bit of leniency.

And in court, when the charges were upgraded to first degree murder and he was charged as an adult he was taken out of the juvenile facility and remanded into an adult facility I don't know how long he stayed there or if he's still there but his attorney in court his attorney Kristen Reynoso had plans to request what's called an Arthur hearing to try to secure him bond, even though it's not a bondable offense. And she also requested in court that her client be returned to juvenile custody. But that is something the judge said that they would have to determine at a later date, and they were going to review all of that. So I do know he was taken into an adult facility. I don't know how long he would have remained, but he's going to stay in custody until his next hearing, which at this point isn't until February.

Back to Master Sergeant Ron Livingston. It's confusing when you hear the verbiage that we just heard from Caitlin Becker, and everything she said is correct. The judge has to determine the exact age of the defendant, and that has to be weighed against the charges. But this juvenile will be housed separately from adults. He will not be in general population. He will not have an adult roommate. None of that's happening.

He is being taken to an adult facility until it's sorted out where he should be because he's charged with murder one. But in the state of Florida and across the country, juveniles are not put in cells or amongst grown men. That is not happening. Please confirm that. Yes, ma'am. They cannot be in eyesight eyesight nor can they speak or talk to any any adults um you know typically and in this case might be a little different i mean the judge could actually overrule it but typically the law in florida is is that juvenile

does not stay in the in that's right in an adult jail for longer than a process, and then they're removed. Now, Miami-Dade, they might have a section that's completely segregated from the adults to where they put him and house him to where he is not in view, contact, can't speak to any adults. That's very strictly prohibited. Yes. Guys, I want you to also hear more of this young man's father, Mr. Rosa, in court. Listen.

Derek's mother recently had a child, and she was overwhelmed with a lot of the work. It's not taking away anything from what occurred. And I wish if he could bring, you know, the insulin back to get studied before that occurred. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida and the founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Dr. Gallagher, I want to go through. We keep talking about the boy. What happened to the boy? The boy's an honor student.

He had always been timid. He was a great son, very respectful, on and on and on. I want to talk about the mother, the new mother. Tell me what she went through as her life ebbed away from her and she tried valiantly to get over to the crib where her 14-day-old daughter was sleeping. Well, Nancy, I mean, she's in a very, very difficult position, as we discussed before. She is in fight-or-flight mode now. She doesn't know whether to run and save her life or to run back to her crib and protect her newborn baby. So she is going to be in the presence of the

son with the knife, you know, for as long as it takes. She's probably already received a fatal wound. She is bleeding. She's actively bleeding to death at this point. And she has a decision to make, you know, do I sacrifice my life for the safety of my newborn? Do I run and try to save myself by going out the door and exiting the situation? All this time, she is getting weaker. She is getting weaker and the ability for her to reason is becoming less as less amount of blood can reach her brain and affect her reasoning center. So she is in a very difficult position in it. And it looked like ultimately she chose to protect her baby because that's approximately where she was found when she was deceased. So very, very difficult situation.

Dr. Gallagher, and I've done this myself in the case of my fiance being murdered. I like to tell myself, well, he didn't feel it. He didn't suffer because he was shot so many times in the face and the neck and the head. But you know what, Dr. Gallagher, that's probably not true because people that have survived gunshot wounds, some of them have said, I didn't even realize I was hit. Others say how much it hurt. Stab wounds have got to be just incredibly painful. I think she really suffered and she got out of the bed and tried to get to the baby's crib. She knew she was bleeding. She knew she had been stabbed.

She probably knew who had stabbed her as she was dying. I have no doubt in my mind. She knew she had been stabbed. She probably knew who had stabbed her as she was dying. I have no doubt in my mind she suffered. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. People who get shot in the bed don't even wake up. You know, they are found exactly where they were sleeping. But people who get stabbed wake up. They feel the pain and they wake up and they try to defend themselves. And this apparently is the case here. And that's the result of knowing what's going on, of feeling the pain. Yes, they were suffering. I'm sorry, Nancy, this is Jim Garbarino again. You know, I think we haven't talked about, you know, obviously a lot of things here. One being, you know, was committing this

crime may have put him in a what's called a dissociative state that just disconnected and that may be reflected in his call. But the other thing is he talks about having a gun and not using it on himself, which suggests that he chose the knife over the crime because, as you well know, stabbing is a very different internal process often than shooting. And it really, again, suggests to me that there's something we don't know yet that's really deep and big and dark inside him that led to this particular form of attack. And again, I think we've just got to understand this because it's not like a lot of other murders that juveniles committed. And I just hope the system will be able to find a way to understand that, make sense of it. And I think, as I said, this gun versus knife issue

may be a clue to what was going on. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend.