Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TLC reality star busted for CHILD PORN!

Episode Date: May 4, 2021

Former reality television star Josh Duggar, of “19 Kids and Counting,” arrested by federal agents on child pornography charges. According to court documents, Josh Duggar “knowingly received child pornography” in May 2019. He also “knowingly possessed child pornography” during the same months by using the Internet to “download child sexual abuse material.” Duggar entered into a rehabilitation center in 2015, after he confessed to inappropriately touching his younger sisters when he was a teenager. He was also accused of creating a private, paid Ashley Madison account, a social site made for people wanting to cheat on their significant other. He reportedly met up with at least one person he chatted with via his Ashley Madison account and paid her for sex. He later admitted to his infidelity and confessed he had a porn addiction problem. Duggar pleaded not guilty Friday to charges of receiving and possessing child pornography.Joining Nancy Grace today: Glen Pounder - Chief Operating Officer, Child Rescue Coalition, Former International Liaison Officer for the UK’s National Crime Agency Specializing in the Prevention of Child Sexual Exploitation, www.childrescuecoalition.org, Boca Raton, FL Troy Slaten - Los Angeles Criminal Defense Attorney, Slaten Lawyers, APC, Twitter @TroySlaten Dr. Jorey Krawczyn - Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. - Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide” (July 2021) bw-institute.com Chris Byers - Former Police Chief Johns Creek Georgia, 25 years as Police Officer, now Private Investigator and Polygraph Examiner, www.chrisbyersinvestigationsandpolygraph.com   Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, LeadStories.com, Twitter: @swimmie2009 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. The wildly popular hit program, 19 Kids and Counting, that aired on TLC, sparked controversy then and now as the eldest son of the Klan, Josh Duggar, now indicted for child porn. Child porn should really be called video and photos of children, little children, as they are molested. Because porn somehow suggests that both parties are willing and maybe even have a contract to make money in a porn shoot. This is so vile. If you've ever seen it, you will never get it out of your head. Two charges now.

And it all starts with, quite ironic, the title, 19 Kids and Counting. This is the story of my family. We're the Duggars. That's me. I'm Michelle. There's Jim Bob, my wonderful husband, and our children. Josh is our oldest. He married Anna, and they had our first grandchildren, Mackenzie, Michael, and Marcus. Then there's Jana, John David, Jill. She married Derek, Jessa, Ginger, Joseph, Josiah, Joy Anna, Jenediah, Jeremiah, Jason, James, Justin, Jackson, Johanna, Jennifer, Jordan, and our youngest daughter Josie. That's a grand total of 19, and I delivered every one of them. Of course, with this many kids, we do things a little differently than most families.

It isn't always easy, but somehow we make it all work. I'm not judging about how many children they have or about their deeply religious beliefs in a certain, let me just say, sect of Christianity. It's hard enough for me to work and raise two children. How you do it with 19, I do not know. That is not what brings us here today. What brings us here today are very, very serious charges. Take a listen to this. Josh Duggar was arrested in Arkansas on Thursday, and on Friday, the charges were revealed. The 33-year-old former 19 Kids and Counting star is accused of receiving and possessing child pornography. During a hearing over Zoom, Duggar pled not guilty to the federal charges.

According to court documents, in May 2019, Duggar allegedly used the internet to download child sexual abuse material. He allegedly possessed the material, some of which involved the sexual abuse of children under the age of 12. If convicted, Duggar faces up to 20 years in prison and fines up to $250,000 on each count. Child sex abuse. Videos, pictures downloaded. You were just hearing our friends over at entertainment tonight and earlier you were hearing from the program intro tlc's 19 and counting joining me an all-star panel to try to make sense of what's going down right now and how an alleged sex pest wow that's a euphemism that's certainly putting perfume on the pig a sex pest try sex molester got away with it for years and

years and years before now charges child sex abuse videos photos of little children being molested with me glenn pounder chief, Chief Operating Officer, Child Rescue Coalition, former International Liaison Officer for the UK's National Crime Agency, specializing in prevention of child sex exploitation. You can find Glenn Pounder at childrescuecoalition.org. Troy Slayton, high profile criminal defense attorney joining us out of LA. You can find him at Twitter at Troy Slayton, Dr. Jory Crossan, psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University, research consultant, Blue Wall Institute, and author of Operation SOS, which you can find on Amazon. Chief Chris Byers, former police chief, Johns Creek, 25 years as a cop, now PI and polygrapher at Chris Byers Investigations and Polygraphs.com.

But first, to investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com, Alexis Tereszczuk. Alexis, yes, he was just arrested on two counts of child abuse materials, a.k.a. child porn. Take a listen, Alexis Tereszczuk, to our friends at Inside Edition. Was it an open secret that Josh Duggar molested underage girls? Long before the scandal erupted, there were troubling comments on the Internet aimed at Josh Duggar and his parents. Eight years ago, in May 2007, a woman who attended church with the Duggars wrote, let me tell you something about the precious Duggars that you don't know. She went on to detail Josh Duggar's history of molesting young girls and claimed his parents, Jim Bob and Michelle, lied and lied about their son to protect him.

Is it true? Well, apparently it is. Take a listen to ABC's GMA. This morning, bombshell sex abuse allegations against Josh Duggar. My life as I had known it was changing. Best known as one of the stars of the TLC series, 19 Kids and Counting. This is our story. The shocking allegations of inappropriate sexual contact with several underage girls when Josh was a teen reported in InTouch magazine.

Duggar responding to the allegations on Facebook. Twelve years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably, for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I confess this to my parents. We spoke with the authorities, and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my this to my parents. We spoke with the authorities and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. Alexis Shredshak, you and I covered that together. What happened within the family? What happened? Josh molested his own sisters in their house, in the Duggars' home. He started the first time that he molested them. The parents have described

it as the girls were asleep and he was touching them over their clothing and they didn't even know that they were molested. However, it progressed to him basically attacking his sisters all around the house. He cornered one of them in a laundry room and was putting his hands under her dress. He had another little sister, little, little, little sister, like I believe under five years old, sitting on his lap and he was reaching under her clothes. He was attacking his sisters in their home. And the Duggars, the parents, do you know what their solution was to keep Josh away from the girls in the house? They built a new 7,000 square foot house and they put the daughter's bedrooms on the other side of their bedroom

so that nobody could get to their bedrooms at night, thinking that that would help Josh stop molesting the girls while they were in their own rooms. Okay, so what about the babysitter? We left that out. It's not just his sisters, four of them, as I recall, but a babysitter, too, who was not asleep at the time. Wait, wait, wait, right, right, right there.

You're absolutely correct, Alexis Torres-Chuck. The first defense was that the girls were asleep. Let me ask you this. Troy Slayton, you're the high-profile defense attorney. How is it the sex-molested victim was asleep any different from the sex molest victim was drugged and passed out or there's no difference there is no difference there is no difference as long as the person who is committing the act is doing it for purposes of sexual gratification for themselves it's irrelevant. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

To Dr. Jory Croson, for a sex act not to be a crime, there must be consent. And if a sex act is on a child, they are under the law unable to consent. They can't buy a car. They can't buy liquor or cigarettes. They can't enter into a contract because they are minors. They also cannot consent to have sex. So the fact that there is no consent, whether you're asleep or you're a child, makes no difference. So why did the parents say that as some sort of a defense

that the girls were asleep when it happened? It seemed like a continuing initiation of enabling his behavior. From the moment this started, they just continued to cover and make excuses. When they said they moved him into treatment, he went off for three months. There's no kind of psychological mental health counseling treatment in three months at this age and at this level of intensity that he's experiencing that is going to be successful. You know, very often to former police chief Chris Byers, now at Chris Byers Investigations and Polygraph.com. Chris, very often you will see molestation within the home.

It's not always some creepy dude at the end of the playground wearing a trench coat and a hat looking suspicious. It's very often a molester in your home, an uncle, a father, an older brother. Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking back over my time in law enforcement and was an investigation within the home, within the family, within the confines of where the child should have been safe. Every time that's where the investigation led to. So I guess the parents were torn between seeking justice for their daughters and the babysitter who were not all asleep when this happened and turning in there. So let's take a listen to our cut seven. This is our friend Byron Pitts at Nightline. Stunning even by reality

TV standards. The news came to light when InT magazine obtained a decade-old police report detailing Josh's alleged molestation. According to the magazine, the heavily redacted report details how Josh, whose name did not appear, was investigated for multiple sex offenses, including forcible fondling, against five girls in 2002 and 2003. A female minor claimed that Josh touched her breasts and genitals while she slept. In Touch magazine says charges were never pressed and the statute of limitations has expired. The Arkansas Police Department told ABC News a judge ordered that the original report be expunged from his record and destroyed. That happened years and years and years ago, but it is my belief, and yes, it is anecdotal. I don't have

a statistic to back this up, but I have never seen a child molester be successfully rehabilitated. To Alexis Tereschuk, I know when the crimes against his four sisters and the babysitter came to light, and they came to light because somebody went online from within their church talking about how the Duggars were hiding or covering up the molestations. Then it got to, I believe, inside edition and they blew it wide open. But how long ago, that was years later, how long ago did it actually happen? The crimes actually took place, the molestations took place in 2002 and 2003. Okay, so 2002 and 2003. And today, here we are. Let's hear cut 21, our friends at Entertainment

Tonight. Josh Duggar was arrested in Arkansas on Thursday, and on Friday, the charges were revealed. The 33-year-old former 19 Kids and Counting star is accused of receiving and possessing child pornography. During a hearing over Zoom, Duggar pled not guilty. So now we're 20 years later, approximately, and it's still going on i mean you know i'm not an md a shrink i'm just a jd but to glenn pounder the chief operating officer at childrescuecoalition.org he went to treatment he never went to jail they swept it under the rug. They kept it a secret. The little girls he molested way back then were just children. Now he's got child porn or child sex molest materials. Jump in, Glen Pounder.

Yeah, thank you, Nancy. And thank you for explaining to your listeners what it is we're really talking about. We're talking about children younger than 12 years old sometimes violently being raped, and that's what these recordings are, child sexual abuse material. But if I can, this case is a microcosm of what we do at Child Rescue Coalition. And when I'm giving a demonstration of our technology, I'll explain to people all the time that the best cops using our system use it as a way of identifying the suspect. And then they ask themselves, OK, what else has this guy done?

So this case really is a microcosm of that. And I'll say to people all the time, if you arrest somebody in their 30s, they could have been offending for 10, 15, 20 years. So the best investigators use that as a starting point. And then they walk backwards to find out when was the first time this guy offended against a child. So let me understand something, Glenn Pounder. I said my knowledge of this fact, and I know it to be a fact. I don't need a statistic study to tell me this because I've seen it over and over and over again. That child molesters cannot be rehabbed. You can send them off to whatever expensive or not expensive rehab you want to. They're going to do it again.

It's just the way they're made. Yeah, it's a very challenging area for psychologists who work with offenders to try and understand what made them offend in the first place, and then obviously what can help treat them, which of course, for what we do, it is so important to at least identify these offenders, because as is proven in many, many cases, up to 85% of the time, those consuming this horrific child abuse material are also committing hands-on abuse at the same time. So they're reoffending against those kids who were raped at the point that took place. And more often than not, they've either already committed hands-on abuse

or they're heading down the path to commit rape against a child. The reality is that, and I've dealt with many, many adult victims of child molestation, that these images, they're really sick. You just heard from our friend at Child Rescue Coalition, Glenn Pounder, that it's videos and pictures of little children being forcibly raped. Exactly that. There's really no nice way to put it. And, I mean, maybe some of the pictures are not violent. But many of them are. It's horrible.

I took this fight to Congress and testified before a subcommittee. And with me, I had a little girl who was, I would say, in her teens by that time, who had been adopted out of a Russian orphanage to an American pedophile. And he molested and raped the little girl, would sometimes tie her to a tree and rape her out in the yard and video it. And how she healed from that is beyond me. But then she had to deal with the fact that images of this were being traded

amongst child predators and perverts for the rest of her life. Those images were out there. Every day, some freaky dude was looking at images of her being raped by her adopted father. And she still has to live with that, as do all of these child victims. There's a whole other layer to this about the show must go on with TLC's 19 kids and counting, while they knew these molestations had occurred in their home,

there's the whole hypocrisy layer. Take a listen to our friend Ron Claiborne at ABC's GMA Our Cut 5. Duggar has also resigned from his position as executive director of the political... We have to stand up for what is right. TLC, the cable channel that airs 19 kids and counting, now in its 10th season, declined comment. The Duggars have been outspoken proponents of sexual chastity. You guys can't kiss yet. Which Josh Duggar, whose wedding was featured on the show in 2008, talked about earlier this season. During our courtship, so we decided that there was going to be no kissing and obviously no

sex before marriage. And outspoken opponents of gay rights causes like Prop 8. I truly believe that every child deserves a mother and a father. And I'm sure grateful for mine. And the Duggar family wields considerable political influence. Many conservative politicians vying for their support. In 2012, backing Republican Rick Santorum. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, we are talking about the fact that in the last days, one of the stars of TLC's 19 Kids and Counting arrested for child porn, which is materials, video photos of little children being raped. Alexis, you've got the whole layer of Christianity and somehow that makes the whole thing even worse. I mean, you expect the freaky dude at the end of the playground wearing the trench coat to be a perv, right? But you really don't expect it from this seemingly self-professed Christian family. And while he was working for the Political Action Committee in Washington, D.C.,

Josh Duggar was spending over $1,000 on AshleyMadison.com. What that is, that was a website that was where you would go online and find a person to have an affair with, to have sex with. And Josh was on there, and their email, their database got hacked, and it all got published, and Josh Duggar was one of their top clients. So while he's working in Washington, D.C., first of all, was a child molester, second of all is working to deny rights to everybody else and talking about how strong the family unit must be.

He was cheating on his wife with their, and she had, I think at the time, four children, four little, little, little children, and he was cheating on her repeatedly. After that was exposed, he finally got fired. All right, Alexis Torres, check to our friend Gigi Chang at ABC. Former reality show star Josh Duggar, husband and father of four, often preached his Christian faith and family values at political rallies. Marriage is central to the family. We're the Duggars. But now the former reality star of 19 Kids and Counting, who just months ago was in the spotlight for bad behavior, again facing public embarrassment.

Apologizing after being outed among the 37 million accounts potentially hacked on Ashley Madison, the site known for matching up married cheaters. Welcome to the club. Instant time for AshleyMadison.com. In a statement on the Duggar family website, Josh calls himself the biggest hypocrite ever, saying while espousing faith and family values, I have been unfaithful to my wife. He even confessed that he has a porn addiction, but later took that admission down. The scandal all the more shocking because it's Josh Duggar, who's outspoken public moralizing so blatantly contradicts his now very public private life.

To Dr. Jory Croson, a psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University, and author of Operation SOS Practical Recommendations to Help Stop Officer Suicide. Dr. Jory, I mean, I'm certainly no biblical scholar, but it's my understanding that one of the things that Christ detested or decried the most were hypocrites. They're the worst, right? I mean, a sinner's a sinner, but a hypocrite is a sinner and a faker to boot. You have to look at the dynamics psychologically involved with sex offender pedophiles, especially this, the anonymity that is provided through the Internet where they can get on, you know, and just like with that one chat room that they were talking about, the money he was spending monthly on that. The other thing is the fantasy. You know, this is a fantasy world and as an investigator and when I

evaluated and treated sex offenders you always have to get into that fantasy world and that's something that is very well hidden it takes a lot of time and that's part of the treatment and when you see the low success rate I just checked in it ranges anywhere between maybe a high of 10 percent to 30 percent of successful treatment for pedophilia and if you look today you know they're now looking to make pedophilia a sexual orientation i don't know who that is but it's over my cold dead body clutching their throats. That's not going to happen if I have anything to do with it.

But I was talking to you about hypocrisy. I mean, Troy Slayton, a hypocrite? I mean, that's just like a chum to the sharks. A hypocrite? Juries hate hypocrites they certainly do but the charges here um and charges with any sex offender whether it be actual hands-on molestation or the allegation here which is receiving and possessing uh child pornography from the internet, it is nuanced in that there's a difference between somebody who is pre-pubescent and post-pubescent. The law does make a difference whether somebody is over the age of 12 or under the age of 12. And in the case here for Josh Duggar,

his allegation is that this was child pornography under the age of 12. That gives me something else to think about. Thanks, Joy Slayton. Guys, speaking about the whole layer of hypocrisy, take a listen to our cut 10. These are our friends at Inside Edition. Listen. The Duggars belong to a Christian sect known as Quiverful, which believes families should have as many children as possible. Vicki Garrison used to be in Quiverful, but left in 2008. She says she's not surprised by claims that the Duggars initially sought help with Josh's issues from church members.

Law enforcement does not quite get on their radar because they're talking about this is a spiritual issue. This is a character issue. And so what they're going to do is they're going to look at, you know, what do they need to do is get their hearts right with God. In Touch magazine is reporting that one of Josh Duggar's victims may have been five years old. So bottom line to you, Alexis Tereschuk, the parents sent Josh Duggar, who I think at that time was 14 or 15, to a Christian rehab for about three months. He then got a, quote, stern talking to by an Arkansas state trooper and that was it. Now the statute of limitations has passed, right? Well, so they, Michelle and Jim Bob said that they had this Arkansas state trooper give

a stern talking to to Josh Duggar about everything that happened. The trooper said he was not told all of the details about what happened at all. He was only told about one incident within the family. He didn't know about the babysitter. He didn't know about the other four sisters that were molested. He said if he had known that, he would have handled it very, very differently. Because a police officer, obviously this is a crime, especially if it's somebody, I don't even want to say that, this is a crime. And the police officer would have to take action.

He was also a mandatory reporter. He would have to call Child Protective Services. He said he wasn't told about any of that. Well, if he was even told about one of the incidents, all those triggers should have been immediately acted upon. To Glenn Pounder, there you see the original five victims. Nothing was done. And I have found, again, anecdotal,

that with adult victims of child molestation and actual children I've worked with, one of the worst things they feel is helplessness. There's nothing they can do to get away from the perp. Here, they go to their parents and the parents do not report him and he is not prosecuted. And the molestations apparently go on. That feeling of helplessness will stick with that child the rest of their life. Yeah, absolutely. And that re-victimization, those memories, that will affect a child for the rest of its life.

And, you know, we talk about these things as if they're all separate. So, for example, you know, the number of people in the U.S. who lose their lives to terrible drug addictions, well, some of those people suffered familial and other types of child sexual abuse when they were children. Like this ripples across society and it ripples through that child's life forever. Forever. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. One of the stars of TLC's 19 Kids and Counting just arrested for child porn.

Two counts, receiving and possessing child porn. And this results from a 2019 raid on Josh Duggar's used car lot. Now, we've heard about the molestation of five little girls when he was about 14. No charges. We've heard about, later on, the Ashley Madison hacking, and it was revealed he'd been paying thousands of dollars for sex during his marriage while his wife pregnant. How did that work out? Take a listen to Our Cut 15.

This is our friend Gigi Chang, ABC. Josh Duggar's wife, Anna, is standing by him. According to family sources, Anna will not leave him. And get this, she blames herself in part for Josh having an account on the notorious Ashley Madison cheating website. To love and to cherish, forsaking all others. Josh and Anna got married seven years ago, a spectacle covered on 19 Kids and Counting.

Things may seem hopeless. Listen to Josh pledge his fidelity in song. Yes, I will be loyal to you. Those words are sure ringing hollow today. Even Josh is calling himself the biggest hypocrite ever. We're also learning that he had two Ashley Madison accounts. One account was active as recently as May 17th. At the time, Anna was pregnant with their daughter Meredith. When he registered with Ashley Madison, he listed

his ideal woman as a girl next door with an aggressive take-charge nature, natural breasts, and a high sex drive. I really don't know what to say to that, but I can say unequivocally that that was not Juju Chang at ABC. I think it may have been our friends at ABC, but that's not Juju. Let me go back to, you know, I keep going back to our shrink on this, but what I don't get is the wife standing by him dr crawson i mean that's really a typical victim mentality i mean you can see how she's just been basically programmed into that it's just like the children they take it upon themselves that you know they're responsible for and she's following that that behavior pattern I mean, it's sad to say, but we see that so much with victims, children and female victims.

And of course, Troy Slate, not that I think that she ever would, but typically what is said or communicated, not necessarily verbally, between a husband and wife. For instance, the husband's charged, he invokes the privilege so his wife cannot testify against him unless it is a case of child abuse or domestic battery. So those are two exceptions to the husband-wife spousal privilege. So she could, the wife who is standing by him, could testify against him under these circumstances. That's true, but she can't be compelled to. She won't be jailed for contempt of court, for refusing to testify. It will be her choice.

You know, to you, former chief, former police chief, Chris Byers. Chris, I've thought back over all the cases I investigated and prosecuted and covered, and rarely, if ever, can I remember a mother, a wife, going against the husband, boyfriend, lover, live-in who had molested the children. They always stick by the husband. Have you noticed that? Absolutely. Every time, again, as I was thinking through all the cases that I dealt with, the wife stood right there, stood by him, would not turn on him. I don't know if it's just the embarrassment of the whole ordeal or what, but yes, that has happened in every one of the cases. Well, you know what, Chris?

Same here. And I mean, bad, bad molestation on little girls, boys as young as three years old. The wife would just, I guess, rationalize and stay in the marriage, whether it was the money or whether she had been conditioned, like you heard. I think it was Dr. Jory Croson saying to Glenn Pounder, chief operating officer, Child Rescue Coalition. Have you found the same? Yeah. Again, unfortunately, over multiple cases over many years, that's something that I've seen in my law enforcement career as well, yeah. So this is going back to when he's 13, 14, 15,

all the way up to the Ashley Madison debacle. Now they're about to have child number seven. They just have a gender reveal. It's a daughter. And these charges land. Take a listen to our cut 22, our friends at E.T. Duggar, who wore a gray prison uniform during the hearing, will remain in custody until May 5th when a detention hearing to seek bond will be held. A pretrial hearing is set for July 1st and the trial is scheduled to begin on July 6th. This is Duggar's mugshot taken on Thursday. The father of six was arrested in Washington County,

Arkansas. Later that day, Josh's sister Jill and her husband Derek Dillard exclusively told ET, quote, we just learned this information. It is very sad. On Friday, Josh's parents, Jim, Bob and Michelle released a statement on their family's website. Quote, we appreciate your continued prayers for our family at this time. The accusations brought against Joshua today are very serious. It is our prayer that the truth, no matter what it is, will come to light and that this will all be resolved in a timely manner. We love Josh and Anna and continue to pray for their family. To Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, where does the case stand right now? I'm imagining any good prosecutor or lawyer not only builds their own case, but they anticipate what the other side is going to say.

The only defense I can think of is I didn't download it. Somebody else did. It's not my computer or entrapment by the feds. There's only three defenses I can come up with. But what's the latest in the case right now? Well, the judge just a few days ago had set some parameters for if Josh is given bail and he's released on bail, he is not allowed to live in a home with any minor children, which means he can't live at his own home since he has six, one on the way. He can't live with

his parents because they still have about 10 or so kids still at home. Can't live with any of his married siblings because they all have children. So he has to find somewhere to live where there's not a minor child anywhere. You know, to you, Troy Slayton, a high-profile trial lawyer out of L.A., when you think about what we were talking about earlier, the wife standing by the husband in this case, what about the threat he poses to those children? They're soon to have seven children. And we know pedophiles, they can't help it.

They are going to prey on children, period. Well, that's why there's all sorts of risk assessments and mitigations that could be placed. The judge here, as Alexis Terescheck mentioned, the federal judge, Wiedemann, in Arkansas, stated that there would be certain bond conditions, namely that he can't be around minor children. That would violate his bond and force him to be put right back in custody. And also that he has to pay for a third party custodian. That means basically a monitor that he would have to pay for to make sure that he's not using the Internet, not being around children. Good Lord, that's a lot of time, energy and money.

Why don't we just put him in jail and leave him? How's that sound? Because everybody is entitled to bail. Everyone is entitled to bail. This is not a capital offense. And he has not been convicted of the crime. He may be, um, uh, have been accused of child molestation in the past, never convicted. He may be a cheater of being on Ashley Madison. That doesn't make him a criminal. That's not a criminal act. So he's presumed not guilty until proven guilty in a court of law. Okay. You know what, Troy? I think sometimes when you don't know what to say, you drag out the presumption of innocence and dust off the mothballs and start talking about that. I hear you. But all the

monitoring and the watching and the money and the effort and the, just leave them in jail. I think a lot of people might agree. Earlier, you were hearing our friend Les Trent at Inside Edition. We wait as justice unfolds, God willing. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.