Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TOT BOY, 2, VANISHES FROM CAMPING TRIP: WHERE IS DEORR?

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

On a whim, parents Vernal Kunz and Jessica Mitchell decide to take their 2-year-old son, DeOrr, camping near Leadore, Idaho. Mitchell invites her grandfather, Robert Walton, and Walton's friend, Isaac Reinwand, to join them. The group arrives at the Timber Creek Campground after dark and sleeps in the next morning. Kunz, Mitchell, and DeOrr go into town for gas and groceries, returning to camp around 1 p.m. By that time, DeOrr should be settling in for a nap, but his parents decide to explore the campground. Reinwand is off fishing upstream, so Walton agrees to watch DeOrr while Mitchell and Kunz take a walk downstream. A few minutes later, Kunz returns to camp to show DeOrr a school of minnows. However, the toddler is nowhere to be found. Walton says DeOrr started following his parents on their walk, and he assumed they had him. After searching for several minutes, Mitchell and Kunz call 911. Investigators quickly rule out kidnapping, as the campers would have seen a car leaving the area, and focus on searching the Timber Creek Campground. Both Lemhi and Bonneville County sheriffs, along with hundreds of volunteers, search for days. Dive teams spend hours combing the creek near the campsite and Stone Reservoir, a shallow body of water feeding the creek. Foot searchers spread out over a three-mile radius, checking even animal dens, but find no sign of DeOrr. Just over a year into the investigation, Jessica Mitchell and Vernal Kunz are named suspects in their son's disappearance and presumed death Joining Nancy Grace Today:  David Marshburn - Kunz Family Private Investigator, Director of Investigations for 'Search for Me Foundation', Former Bounty Hunter Pendrey Trammell - Civil Litigator, Former Prosecutor in Oregon and Idaho; Instagram: @pendrey28  Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski – Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides;” FB: forensicsandmediapsychologist/TikTok: Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski Dr. Jan Gorniak – Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV), Board Certified Forensic Pathologist Nate Eaton - News Director, EastIdahoNews.com, Facebook: "Nate Eaton - Reporter", Instagram: @n.eaton  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Beautiful boy, age two, vanishes from a family camping trip. Tonight, where is Dior? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. What's the address of your emergency?

I'm actually camping in Red Wharf, just outside of Red Wharf. Uh-huh. My two-year-old son, we can't find him. How long has he been missing? About an hour. An hour? Yeah. Are you by water?

Yes. Do you know which campground you're in? It's Stone Reservoir, Timber Creek. Stone Reservoir? Yeah. Or Timber Creek. Hold on. We need search and rescue. You are hearing the 911 call from the camping area for a two-year-old little tot boy, absolutely beautiful baby, seemingly vanishes into thin air. Let's listen to more of that 911 call. What do we learn? Jessica? Jessica? Yeah? What's your son's name? Brooke. Okay, what is he wearing? He was wearing cowboy boots, a blue, um, hair, like, pajama pants, and a camel jacket. And he's got shaggy blonde hair.

Is your husband calling, too? Like, all down where we were camping at, and we can't find him at all. Okay, we need you to stay within cell service. We've got people going on the way. Joining me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. First, straight out to Nate Eaton joining us, news director, eastidahonews.com. Nate, listen to this. Vernal Koontz and girlfriend Jessica Mitchell live together in Idaho Falls with their two-year-old son, Dior. On a whim, Koontz and Mitchell decide to take Dior camping outside Leodore. Mitchell

invites along her grandfather, Robert Walton, and a friend of Walton's. The group arrives to Timber Creek Campground after dark and sleeps in the next morning. Finishing breakfast around 11 a.m., Koontz, Mitchell, and Dior go into town for gas and a few groceries, returning to camp about two hours later. And they leave Dior with Grandpa, who's watching the child. Listen to our friend's East Idaho news. Grandpa's watching the child. He tells me he looks away momentarily.

When he looks back, he's gone, and he's assumed he's gone over the bank. Right where Grandpa's sitting, he's within 20 to 30 yards of the only roadway into the campground. And absolutely no one was seen at that lower campground coming or going. When children are kidnapped, nobody ever sees anyone coming or going. What happened to Dior? In addition to Nate Eaton joining us from EastIdahoNews.com, who shot to fame during the, um, cult mom, Lori Vallow case. In addition to him is a very well-known private investigator, David Mashburn, director of investigations at search for me foundation and a former bounty hunter. I can tell you this. He's been around

the block once or twice. Nate Eaton, straight out to you. Tell me about the terrain. Where do your went missing? Oh, Nancy, this is a very remote area. You have to take a four wheel drive or an ATV to get back there. When we went out there, you know, it would have it would have ruined our car if it was a small car. It's down a very long, dusty road. There's no cell phone service. There is a creek that runs through that campground. There's a big hill near the campground. There's a reservoir on the other side of the hill. It is extremely remote. It would be very hard for a little boy the age of Dior to get anywhere, really, in cowboy boots that were bigger than his feet.

Dior, just two years old at the time he goes missing. In addition to investigative reporter and news director, Nate Eaton, joining us now, special guest, David Marshburn, former bounty hunter, worked for the family. He's a private investigator and director at Search For Me Foundation. David, thank you for being with us.

Dave, got a question. I want to follow up on the terrain that Nate Eaton was just describing. And before we go any further about what Grandpa did or didn't do wrong, I've had a lot of cases where a child is being watched, and in the twinkling of an eye, the child is gone. But I want to talk about this terrain because the way they're telling it, David, and I believe grandpa, he's watching the child looks away momentarily and he turns around. I don't know how long that moment was. It could have been one minute. It could have been 30 seconds. It could

have been 30 minutes. He looks back and Dior is gone. Now, right where Grandpa's sitting, and this is according to the sheriff, Lynn Bowerman, we just heard talking. He's just 20 to 30 yards from the only roadway into the campground. Is that right, David Marshburn? Yeah, the terrain is very rough and you have a lot of sagebrush and that's what makes it difficult to move around out there except for certain little areas that are grassy and, you know, just dirt, plain dirt. Question, Dave Marshburn, you brought up something really interesting. Just imagining this little, this little tot in that sagebrush. You mentioned sagebrush specifically. Why would that make it difficult to move around and impede the search? Well, sagebrush is sort of like a briary bush that has a lot of hard limbs on it. I mean, it's just like walking through a compacted bush. It's just,

it's very difficult to maneuver around because they all intertwine with one another. You can walk between them somewhat. As an adult, you can stand above it and get around it. But as a two and a half year old, it would be hard to maneuver through it. I'm just thinking through what you're saying and you would know. As an adult, just picture it like this, going through a cornfield, basically. If you're a two and a half year old going through sagebrush, it's like an adult going through a cornfield. Now, now I can understand what you're saying, David Marshburn. It would be like me going through a corn maze. Got it. He wouldn't be able to see anything.

And from where the grandpa was sitting, Dave Marshburn, how far away was the sagebrush? Was it right there? It was within 15, 20 feet of him. Okay, guys, listen to this. By that time, it was almost two, and he usually takes his nap. We decided we were going to go a little exploring. He was going to be good with Grandpa by the campfire. We weren't more than probably 50 yards away in 10 minutes.

I've actually seen there were some things down by the little minnows that I thought he would just love. So when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to grandpa, where is, you know, where's little Dior? He immediately shocked. He says, he came up to you. Dad and girlfriend speaking to East Idaho News. Okay, let's analyze that. You know, Nate Eaton, sadly, Nate joining us from East Idaho News, sadly, when a child goes missing, you always look at the family. And statistically, very often you're looking in the right direction. But almost as many times, it's not the family. So I'm looking at them talking. I want to analyze what they're saying.

And that fits hand in glove with what the grandpa was saying. What do you make of what he said? Well, he is insistent that they went to look at the fish. They went to look at the minnows. And when they got back, they thought that Dior was with grandpa. Grandpa thought that Dior was with his parents. And that when they came back, they said said where's Dior? He's gone. Well they start to search around the campsite. They can't find him. They search 15-20 minutes that he gets in his truck. He goes to search further. That's when they went down the way to call 9-1-1 because there was no cell phone

reception. Nancy when they came in to talk with me, they brought Dior's, one of his little monkey toys. They brought his blanket. They seemed very distraught. They seemed upset. They wanted to know where their son was. So, Nate Eaton, you're analyzing, as am I, every word, because every word counts. Take a listen to the county sheriff from our friends at East Idaho. They supposedly thought they were turning their child over to their grandfather, the child's great grandfather. They went down to the creek, which is right next to the campground. And within 10 to 15 minutes, they go up to find their child to show them some fish in the stream. And he's nowhere to be found. Grandfather assumes he's gone down to them because he was within their line of sight

and wasn't too far from the campground. They started their initial search and eventually called 911 when they realized they couldn't find the child. You know, Dave Marshburn, again, you've been working on the case. I want to make sure that what we're hearing jives with the topography, with the scene. Does it make sense what Grandpa says? Let's start with him. I do not agree with that. Okay. What about the topography does not fit that scenario?

Because it's not an edge you can just fall off of. If you walk to the edge of the right where the decline is to the creek, you would hit something. Something would stop you before you entered the creek. Is there a way, you know, I had a judge, he was the oldest judge in the Fulton County Courthouse and the wisest, might add and one thing he told every jury and I know it by heart it is your duty members of the jury to make all witnesses speak the truth and impugn perjury on no one in other words when various witnesses tell their story from different angles and different lighting and different points of view, I don't expect them to fit like a fingerprint. So hearing what the grandpa is saying, that he was watching the boy from that location, he turned away.

He says for a moment, it could be 10 minutes. He turns back and the boy was gone. I don't mean he had to go over a ridge and disappear. Where the grandpa's sitting, could Dior have run off to play and gotten out of the grandpa's vision? Yes. He could have. He could have just disappeared. Okay.

That much, I agree with you, David Marshburn. I also agree that there's not some kind of a ridge like he falls off the end of the earth and you can't see him anymore. But I do believe that Dior could have wandered off and be out of his vision, his line of sight. And it's not the first time it's happened. Listen. Charlotte was camping with her family here in Moreau State Park. Last evening, she went out on a bike ride. It wasn't dark. It was right around dinner time.

And did a couple of loops with close friends she considers her cousins. And then she decided, after going around Troop A, she said she just wanted to go around one more time by herself. Be that big girl, do it by herself. Literally 15 minutes later, she hadn't come back yet. And that's really when the nightmare begins. Of course, we're talking about little Charlotte Sina. She was with her family in a remote camping area of state New York and is riding her bike on a loop directly in front of the parents and their relatives.

They're all there for a big camp out and cookout going around and around and around and around with the other children. And the reason I bring up Charlotte David Marshburn is because that loop that she was riding her bike right there at the campsite with, with, uh, campers and tents around the little loop she was driving or riding her bike. If you look down that hill, there was a road and the kidnapper was on that road. He had been scoping out Charlotte and And as she rode her bike to the furthest edge of that loop, he grabbed her. They found her bike. She was found alive

several days later up under a cupboard in a camper the perp had behind his mother's house. She lived, but it was just like that. They were looking at her. They turned to the grill out. They look back. She's gone. It can happen just like that, Marshburn. I agree. So back to the case in chief, it could have happened that way here as well. Do you agree or disagree, Nate Eaton? I think it could have happened very well, Nancy. Like I said, it's a remote area. And the one thing that we haven't talked about yet that you might want to is wild animals are in the area. There's bears, there's wolf dens, there's also mines that are in the area that are hundreds of years old, that if you're walking around

and you misstep, you could fall into a mine and never be found. So, yeah, the terrain is not, it's not one if you decide to, you know, take a two-year-old out that they're going to get very far. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What's the address of your emergency? I'm actually camping in Leadworth, just outside of Leadworth. Uh-huh. My two-year-old son, we can't find him.

How long has he been missing? About an hour. An hour? Yeah. Are you by water? Yes. Do you know which campground you're in? It's Stone Reservoir, Timber Creek.

Stone Reservoir? Yeah, for Timber Creek. Hold on. We need search and rescue. Both Lemhi and Bonneville County sheriffs, alongside hundreds of volunteers, searched the Timber Creek campground for days, looking for any sign of Dior. Dive teams spent hours combing the creek running along the campsite and stone reservoir, a shallow body of water feeding the creek. Foot searchers spread out over a three-mile radius, even checking animal dens for any signs of Dior.

Joining us, Nate Eaton from eastidahonews.com, news director. Nate, tell me about the immediate search. I need to know, A, who was searching? B, how long did it take to get searchers in? C, had the family already started searching and what were their efforts? Can you describe that? The family has started to search Nancy on foot. And also remember that there were only like four of them out there with Dior. So it was the four of them. Parents were searching. Vernal says, the dad, says he hopped in his truck and started to search. It wasn't. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hopped in his truck. How can you hop in your truck if you can only get up there in ATV? Well, you can get up there in a truck if it's a four wheel drive. So his truck was there on the site. And so he tells us that he immediately did a search around the campsite then got in his truck did a search there then drove down the path to call 9-1-1 it's it takes some time to get up

there so the sheriff's office responded before a small search and rescue crew responded and within 24 to 48 hours you had people on horseback you had people on atvs you had drones in the air some helicopters were brought in from nearby montana to search the area and i would say that first week or so they did a search out there and what they were doing is to to mark off areas they had been they were tying pink ribbons around trees to let other searchers know that that specific area had been searched, but this is a vast remote area, Nancy. I mean, it would take thousands and thousands of people who knows how long to cover every single square foot of that forest. Wait a minute, Nate Eaton. In my mind,

you're bass-ackwards. It may be thousands and thousands of acres. Yes, I can't argue with the map, but a little two-year-old boy wearing cowboy boots almost as tall as him, he could not have gotten thousands and thousands of acres away. I don't need to search thousands and thousands of acres. I need to search that immediate area and then start moving out. David Marshburn, how did they do the search? From what I understand, they focused their area on the creek and they started up where the parents stated they were at to the bottom where you can cross over with a vehicle. And that's what they concentrated mostly on for three

to four days. So they started mostly in, wait, just give me the parameters one more time, David. Like within 100 feet from the campsite is how they started. And they started in the creek from the top down to the bottom. I think the farthest they were was around 300 feet to where the creek crosses, where the road crosses over the creek. Let me ask you a question, David or Nate, and I'm going to bring in Dr. Gorniak, Dr. Jeff Kaliszewski and Pendry Trammell in just one moment. But could a two-year-old boy wearing those boots have crossed that creek? What do you think, David Marshburn? Absolutely not. There's no way that could have got within 100 feet from that campsite just on flat ground.

And Nate Eaton, I agree with Marshburn. If he had made it to the creek, I don't know that he would have gotten in the water and tried to cross it in cowboy boots. I don't know if the creek was so deep that was impossible. And if he had, we would have evidence of him doing that. Would you agree with that, Nate Eaton? Absolutely. Yeah, I don't think he could have made it to the creek. Had he made it somehow miraculously to the creek, the creek would have stopped him.

He could not have crossed it. And then, you know, the part of the creek that I've been to, there's a little hill right past the creek. He didn't have to go uphill. And remember, they weren't just cowboy boots, Nancy. They were cowboy boots that were one or two sizes bigger than his feet. You know how it is to walk in shoes that are bigger than your feet, especially as a kid. You're kind of clomping along. So it's not like they were tight and attached to his feet, but there's been no sign of those boots. Had he made it to the creek, there's been no signs of his clothing. There's been no signs of him. And if he had made it to

the creek and across the creek, we would absolutely have evidence on the other side of the creek. Now, this is what I want to know. You mentioned a bridge going over the creek and a roadway. Could Dior have been seen from the road or the bridge? What about it, Dave Marshburn? Well, what it is, it's a creek that you drive over the creek, into the creek and up on the other side. So it's not like there's a bridge or stepping stones. The water moving so quickly would sweep the child off his feet. It would almost sweep a grown man off his feet. It's only like a foot deep, but it's still moving swiftly the whole time during the year.

So there's no way the child could have crossed the creek without being swept into the creek. And then you have buffers every 20, 30 feet that where the creek has accumulated sticks and brush and everything. So it would have stopped him. Someone, if he was in the creek, he would have been found the first day. I agree. I agree. And that's why I was asking Nate Eaton how quickly the searchers got there. Would you say they converged in an hour or less than two hours? I would probably say two to three hours to be more accurate. And, know david's right they did focus on that campground at first for the first several days and the creek then they spread out to see it if maybe you know one of the theories was did a large bird or a mountain lion pick dior up and take him elsewhere and drop

him or something like that did you just say a large bird that was one of just say a large bird? That was one of the theories, a large eagle or something picking him up, mountain lion. Hey, guess what? Maybe a little green man from Mars came camping that day and got him. A bird did not get the boy. Okay. A mountain lion did not get the boy. Am I crazy? Or have you and I been working on the Suzanne Morphew case, right? Suzanne Morphew was not attacked by a mountain lion. Why? Because we have done studies on it and we know there would be indicia left behind that there had been some type of a tangle with a mountain lion. There would be clothing, there would be blood, there would be struggle, something. Nate Eaton, after all this

time, you want to get up here on Crime Stories and say a bird may have taken Dior? I'm not saying I believe that, Nancy. I'm saying that was one of the theories that was looked at, that had a bird or a large bird, eagle, something, or an animal picked him up, then taken him somewhere else, or even a person. If a person had made their way into that campground as remote as it is and then discarded him somewhere else, that's why the search then spread out as far as they could go. The search for two-year-old Dior is on. Joining me, an all-star panel.

But I want you to hear, just to throw another wrench in the works, what happened? Listen. While we were doing our grid search, someone came in and wanted to deposit cremains of a loved one at that site. And I'm assuming it's a favorite site of their loved one. And without thinking, they deposited these cremains, not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene and what it would do. What? Someone comes on to the search scene to spread ashes? Did this really happen, Nate Eaton? It did happen. It did happen. Someone unbeknownst that this child was missing.

It was a reservoir that their family member loved to go to. They went up, dumped the cremains in the reservoir. That's of course, when the dogs picked up a scent that there was human cremains. And so we were up there when they were searching that reservoir. It's divers for several days were under the water. And that's when this person that dumped the cremains

came forward and said, actually, the dogs might be getting this sort of scent. And unfortunately, they never found Dior in that reservoir. So Dior, based on everything Nate and David are telling us, was not in the creek. He was not in the reservoir. These people came upon a crime scene search and throw out human remains, cremated remains, which throws the search into chaos with the scent dogs. But then another dead end. Listen. Two days after Dior's disappearance, Lemhi County sheriffs receive a tip from Ammon, Idaho, some 120 miles away. The caller is a Walmart employee who sold a man several boxes of diapers.

The man was towing along a blonde, hazel-eyed Todd boy. Police identify the man's vehicle from surveillance footage, but when they track him down, the toddler is not Dior. Frustrated by the dead end, Sheriff Lynn Bowerman comments, Every two-and-a-half-year year old with blonde hair looks just like Dior. Straight back to you, Nate Eaton. Then I'll bring in David Pendry, Dr. Kieliszewski and Dr. Gorniak. Nate Eaton, a false sighting. Now, I don't blame the people that called it in. They're trying to help, but it really skewers the timeline here. Resources go to track that down and it's a dead end. But the real focus should be where Dior went missing. Right. Yeah. Police rushed to that Walmart. We went down there and they pulled the surveillance footage. They were able to track

that guy in a nearby town. They went to his house, cleared him right away. He had nothing to do with the case. There was another sighting, Nancy, at a hotel in California of a beautiful little boy that looked just like Dior. I guess the good thing is that people were alert and paying attention to the fact that he was missing. Turns out that case was not related to this one. But, yeah, I mean, it does divert resources away from the fact that he's still missing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It's at this juncture, the search gets turned on its ear. Listen.

Jessica Mitchell and Vernal Coons tell investigators just after breakfast, they take Dior with them on a gas run to fill up Coons' diesel truck. The stage shop doesn't sell diesel, and the station two doors down is out of gas. The family finally finds diesel at Peterson's Welding, then returns to the stage shop for a few supplies and snacks, specifically french fries for Dior. The couple has receipts for the gas and snacks, but everyone who was at the stores at the time only remembers a couple coming in. They did not see a child. Back to David Marshburn, the Kuntz family private investigator and director of investigations at Search For Me Foundation, former bounty hunter. Jessica Mitchell and Vernal Kuntz tell investigators after breakfast they take Dior with them on a gas run

to fill up the diesel truck. Now number one, the stage shop doesn't sell diesel and the station two doors down was out of diesel gas. The family finally finds diesel at Peterson's Welding, then return back to the stage shop for supplies and snacks, French Fries for Dior. They've got the receipts for gas and snacks. Nobody at the store sees a child with them now let me understand something this is where the facts seem to diverge for me I thought Dior was back with the grandpa and that's where he gets lost now I'm hearing that he goes to get snacks and gas now back to the truism. It's my duty to make all witnesses speak the truth.

Did these two things happen at two different times? What happened is once they got breakfast, everything, the mom and dad took the child and they went into town to get diesel fuel. And then when they come back is when the grandfather watches the child. Okay. I'm glad I sussed that out with you. So that's true. Now, these people, Dr. Jeff Keleshefsky joining me, a forensic psychologist, author of Dark Sides.

You can find him on YouTube, Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski, forensic psychologist. Got a question for you, Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski. Dr. Jeff, many people, legal eagles and others, have attacked those citizens that come forward with a sighting. Sightings that are dead ends ends that are not Dior. Also the people at the gas station and the stage shop they have been attacked claiming they're slowing down the investigation. For all I know these people in the stage shop just didn't see Dior. There's no indication he was left out in the truck that didn't happen. So what's your no indication he was left out in the truck. That didn't happen. So what's your response? Well, I think what's important is, particularly in missing cases

situations, that law enforcement and anyone involved gather as much information as they can. As you know, interviewing witnesses, sometimes you have a witness's perception, sometimes you have what they're willing to tell you, and you have to compare that to what's in the environment of the potential crime scene and look at the logistics, how do people move within that crime scene. So gathering all the information, looking to see what lines up and what doesn't line up. And that sort of sets a stage for your next inquiry or set of questions is important. So the more information, the better. You can always rule out things as a misperception, as a mistake. But what you need to do is take all that information, find where there's consistencies, where things are plausible, and where things are

maybe not plausible, rule those out, and that leads to your next inquiry. Retired U.S. Marshal Frank Vilt volunteers to help the family find Dior. Vilt puts up personal savings for a reward and dedicates all of his time to the case. A month later, Vilt terminates his working relationship with Vernal Coons and Jessica Mitchell. Vilt explains his reasoning in a letter to the case. A month later, Vilt terminates his working relationship with Vernal Coons and Jessica Mitchell. Vilt explains his reasoning in a letter to the parents. Quote, I told both of you that if I felt you were not telling the truth, stalling me, or otherwise misleading me,

that I would withdraw from the investigation. Both of you lied and misrepresented the true facts that could solve the mystery of your missing son. Joining me, David Marshburn, the Coons Family Private Investigator and Director of Search For Me Foundation. This guy voluntarily joins the search, puts up money for a reward, and then drops out because he believes the father and girlfriend are lying? Yes, ma'am. But you have to look at the situation. Frank Beal, respectable man, good at what he did. He came from a U.S. Marshal background, which he

went after abducted children by the opposite parent. He seemed to get tunnel vision about Jessica adopting the child out behind Bernal's back. And because they refused to take a reward for the child, he even got even stronger about his belief that they gave the child up for adoption. Either Jessica did it without Bernal's acknowledgement or they both did it. But the parents were told by the FBI when they stepped in not to give out any type of reward because it could lead to a lot more false leads. And they wanted to spend more of their time at the campsite in the general area.

OK, so that could be that could be murky as to why he really left. But then there is another pi listen after frank vilt removes himself from the investigation the parents turn to another private investigator philip klein takes on the case and is hopeful that he will find little dior but klein quickly runs into the same issues vilt did klein says the couple's story frequently changes and their timeline of events crumbles under scrutiny. Joining me right now is a renowned attorney, Pendry Trammell, civil litigator, former prosecutor in Oregon and Idaho. You can find her at smithmalik.com. Pendry, thank you so much for being with us. There's a reason polygraphs don't come into court. Many people argue like

fingerprints that was contested once too, but now it comes into court. But here we've got five polygraphs where Vernal Koontz fails. He even fails the control question. Are you going to tell us the truth today? I mean, that's bad, Pendry. It is bad. You know, yes, those polygraphs don't come into court based on some of the science behind them. But when you're looking at five failed polygraphs, there is reason for concern there, especially when you fail that very first question. Pendry Trammell, you've, I'm sure, encountered lie detector tests, polygraphs. But again, both of these people in tandem are failing multiple polygraphs.

It's bad enough if one fails. But remember, these two are together when Dior goes missing. This is not a good sign, Pendry. Now, you've handled a lot of domestic and custody cases that go south. What's your analysis? Sure. So when we're looking at these polygraphs that are getting completely inconsistent, especially with two people that were at the same crime scene seeing the same things, we're looking at where's the consistency?

Where's the corroboration? You know, where are those things that are lining up and where are they diverging? And are those on key factors, right? If we're looking at divergence on key factors or they can't keep it straight, that's when we start looking at those key factors and seeing what went left. Bernal did not take five polygraphs. He took two. He did inconclusive pass on each one. Jessica Mitchell did two lie detector tests. It come inconclusive pass. And

the reason why it did that and the FBI agent actually told them the reason why it was inconclusive pass was because of the stress that they were going through of losing a child. Joining me right now, a renowned medical examiner, Dr. Jan Gorniak, who has been waiting patiently. Dr. Gorniak, former medical examiner in Clark County, that's Vegas, board certified pathologist, Dr. Gorniak. We know that Dior Kuntz went on that trip. We know it's very heavy terrain. We are convinced he never made it into the water, which means either he got lost in that wooded expanse or he was kidnapped. Question to you.

The most obvious answer is he's lost in the expanse, either killed or got lost on his own. Dr. Gorniak, if his remains were found now, would he be identifiable? At this point in time, baby Dior would not be identifiable. Unfortunately, I looked up the weather at that time. It's in July. It's in the 80s. And for a little kid, it will take less than a few hours for them to start to decompose. So 24 hours later, he would start to be decomposing. And like one of your other guests says, there's probably animals out in the brush and will probably got to his body. But these years later, he's probably skeletonized, completely skeletonized. If he's found though, even if his remains are simply skeletons, couldn't we still tell that it was a human child? Yes. You would

then have to employ an anthropologist, a forensic anthropologist who can look at the bones and take measurements and determine the sex and the height of the child, depending on teeth. Not sure if he had went to the dentist, but probably at that time he didn't have any cavities or fillings in his teeth that would be able to identify him. But had he had some x-rays of his teeth, of his skull at some point, then he'd be able to identify him. But had he had some x-rays of his teeth, of his skull at some point, then we'd be able to do it. I'm not sure there'd be any bone marrow left to do DNA. It'd be very difficult. In a case like this, it would probably come down to circumstantial, saying that based on the information and the circumstances, we can't do it scientifically, i.e. fingerprints, DNA, dentist. So we would have to say circumstantially, this is probably Dior. Dr. Gorniak, I can't think of any way, if his remains are there, that he would not be

skeletonized. Correct. He would be skeletonized. But this case as a forensic pathologist, I have so many other questions. So our job as a forensic pathologist, besides causing man or death, identification of the body, is to prove or disprove the circumstances. I can't imagine any of these scenarios where you're not going to hear a child scream, cry, any other noises that the grandfather or the friend of the grandfather would have heard. So let's just say a big bird came down. You would have heard something. I'm not sure that a two-year-old would just be silent. Pendry Trammell with us, a renowned civil litigator and former criminal prosecutor at smithmallick.com. Pendry. In a case like this, if his remains are found,

it would be very difficult to prove or disprove that he was murdered unless his remains have been buried or secreted in some way. Sure. I think that would be, again, that circumstantial evidence that Dr. Gorniak was talking about. You're looking at what's surrounding where you find, unfortunately, the child's remains at that point. The other thing you'd be looking at is, is there anybody else that's gone missing in that area? Are we ruling out other potential, you know, children that have gone missing? You have to look at the entire picture and kind of put those circumstantial pieces together. To David Marshburn joining us, the Kuntz family private investigator, director at Search For Me Foundation. David, what do you think happened? I do believe there was foul play involved.

I do not believe the parents were involved in that. Where is Dior Kuntz? Do you know how much money, how many thousands, how many tens of thousands of dollars many people in this country would pay to get a little child like Dior? He could be anywhere. If you know or think you know anything about the disappearance of this child, please dial the tip line 208-756-8980. 208-756-8980. We wait for justice to unfold in the search of Totboy D'Orkuns. And now we stop to remember an American hero, Officer Brandon Paul Estorff of Bay St. Louis Police Department, Mississippi. Just 23, shot and killed in the line of duty.

Survived by a grieving mother and father, Ian, also in law enforcement. Siblings, Lily, Sophia, Jordana, Chloe, and Andrew. American hero, Officer Brandon Paul Estorff. Thank you to all of our guests for joining us in the search for Dior, but especially to you for being with us. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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