Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Tot boy Lucas Hernandez stepmother dead: Suicide or homicide?

Episode Date: June 11, 2018

The death of Lucas Hernandez's step mom has left many unanswered questions about the death of the 5-year-old Kansas boy. Why was Lucas's father the one who discovered Emily Glass fatally shot in the house where he no longer lived? What did Jonathan Hernandez know about Glass's physical abuse of little Lucas and about his death? Why did Lucas not get help from Kansas child protection workers? Nancy Grace searches for answers with a former Kansas social worker familiar with the case, psychologist Susan Constantine -- who specializes in detecting when people are lying, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Atlanta juvenile judge and lawyer Ashley Willcott, and CrimeOnline reporter Leigh Egan. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, channel 132. A five-year-old top boy goes missing after three long months. Really on a whim, a private investigator decides to take the stepmother out for a drive. A long drive. Then, after hours and hours of seemingly driving through the countryside aimlessly, Stepmommy leads him directly to the spot where the little boy's body is found,

under a bridge in a washed-out culvert. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime crime stories thank you for being with us the mystery only intensifying in the last days as that stepmother walks free then shoots herself but why what does that tell us about the investigation take a listen to this my biggest question is where'd she get the gun? We pretty much nailed that down that there was no gun in the house. I told Jonathan and I told Jamie, stay away. Let's say someone did this to Emily or Emily does it to herself, you're going to be the first suspect. So stay away. That is private investigator David Marshburn, who manages to finagle the stepmother, Emily Glass, into the car for a long, long drive, during which she divulges the location of little tot Lucas Hernandez's dead body. Out in the middle of nowhere.

How would she know that unless she put the tot there herself? He could hardly even tell what he was seeing. I've looked carefully at the photos and I couldn't either. The little boy's dark brown hair had been bleached white in the elements. You could hardly even see his body amidst the sticks and the weeds and the debris caught in an erosion pan in that culvert, that little body in with all that debris for three long months. Will we ever know what happened? I find that very, very odd to Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, the private investigator who I give all the credit to, all the credit for getting Emily Glass on secretly recorded audio

as he's driving her around, he's taping everything she said. Ashley, for the same PI to say, you know, I warned them she might kill herself. And I'm not trying to say the PI did it. Of course he did not. He's in another state now. But to tell them, if you go to this home, I'm talking about Lucas's mom and dad, she may kill herself and you'll be a suspect. And lo and behold, she is found shot dead.

And Lucas's father finds her. What a weird set of circumstances and what foreshadowing by the P.I. So first of all, it's reported that she allegedly killed herself. The father comes home, I think it is at like 1.30, 1.40 in the morning and finds her. So the first question is, where was he? Is he staying there? Where had he been? Next, Nancy, we need to think about the fact that she was absolutely involved in this child's death because

she knew where the child was located. But we still do not know what happened to Lucas. And so the law enforcement investigation is crucial to figure out what's really happened. Whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on. She, Lee Egan with me, investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com, where we have this story and all other breaking criminal news and justice. To Lee, who was living in the home? That was a question Joseph Scott Morgan was posing earlier. Were they both still living there don't think so i think it was emily alone i'm not sure why or how jonathan knew to go over there that night but he did i'm not i've not heard that he was there i heard he left shortly after she was released from jail the second time okay i don't understand a lot of facts here and they're critical. Number one, who owned the home or did they own it? Did they buy

it together? Were they renting it? If they were renting it and it's under his name, why is she going back there and why is he going over there at 140 a.m.? I don't like it. Let me hear that. Let me hear David Marshburn one more time. Alan, please. My biggest question is, where'd she get the gun? We pretty much nailed that down that there was no gun in the house. I told Jonathan and I told Jamie, stay away. Let's say someone did this to Emily or Emily does it to herself. You're going to be the first suspect. So stay away. Okay, where did she get the gun? To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Joe Scott, the home has been searched, the cars have been searched, the curtilage, which is your yard and your shed and your storage unit and blah blah,

everything else around your home is your curtilage. Everything had been searched multiple times when they were looking for Lucas, when she was busted on driving high on pot with a kid in the car by her own account. She was found not guilty on that. That home had been searched and searched and searched. Nobody in their right mind would have given her a gun. Was this a long gun, Joe Scott? Yeah, from what I understand, Nancy,

the reports are saying that there was a, what they're calling a rifle laying at her feet. Okay, wait, wait, stop. Sorry, sorry, sorry. A long gun. A long gun. How in the hay, we're talking about a rifle or shotgun. How in the hay do you kill yourself with a rifle? It can be kind of difficult. Kind of difficult? Well, yeah, a lot of it's going to be dependent upon how long your arms are. I don't really know how big this woman is, but she has to position herself. She would have to position herself in a position where she could actually actuate the trigger and place the muzzle either in her

chest or some other lethal area of her body and pull the trigger. I've worked cases where people have used their thumbs. I've used cases where people have used their toes in order to initiate the trigger on a long weapon. Okay. I'm very twisted around on how physically that happened. I'm having a very difficult time imagining how Emily Glass shot herself with a long gun. Now, I have personally been involved with cases where someone, it was a man, because we know statistically women don't usually shoot themselves, especially in the head. It's broken down by race, by gender, by age, by socioeconomic level, the method and assessment of who suicide and it's rare that a woman in her and all of her categories that fit her will shoot themselves never in the face but maybe in the chest but a case i had i was involved with joe scott the person the man rigged the shotgun to shoot him

he could do it with his toe. Okay. Now, that is not apparently what happened here. Now, how in the world did she shoot herself with a rifle? I think that it can be difficult. Sometimes what you will find is that the butt of the weapon, that is the area where the weapon actually fits into the shoulder, will be placed between where the wall and the floor join. The weapon is then leaned into, that is the muzzle, and you have to extend your hand, generally your right hand, depending upon what dominant hand you use, and press the trigger at

that point in time. It takes some work to do, but it can be done. I've even seen people actuate the trigger with a string before. So there's a lot of stuff to kind of unpack here. It's not typical. I want to know why she had a weapon, why she had access to the weapon. And I think as an investigator, one of the things I would want to know, because it does give one pause, it has been implied extensively that she has direct knowledge of this kid's death, of Lucas's death. Why in the hell is the dad going to the home where this woman is so closely linked to the

death of his son? Take a listen to this. At approximately 1.40 a.m. on Friday, Glass' boyfriend, 34-year-old Jonathan Hernandez, called 911 to report arriving home and finding Glass dead. Officers discovered a rifle near her feet and three suicide notes in the residence, again address being 655 South Edgemoor. Glass's body is at the Regional Forensic Science Center and the case number of this ongoing investigation is 18 C 36793. Glass had been questioned in the disappearance and death of five-year-old Lucas Hernandez, the son of Jonathan. On May 24th, she was booked into the Sedgwick County Jail

for felony obstruction of justice after leading a private investigator to Lucas's body under a bridge in South Harvey County. Lucas had been missing since February 17th. The homicide investigation into Lucas's death is also ongoing, and the case number regarding his death is 18C-106-9. There's so many unanswered questions right now. What happened to the stepmother, Emily Glass? You know, to Susan Constantine, psychologist, author of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Reading Body Language. You can find her at SusanConstantine.com and her book, Idiot's Guide to Reading Body Language, is on Amazon.com.

Which, I've got to tell you something, Susan. Your book is awesome. Thank you. which I got to tell you something, Susan, your book is awesome. And when I was with you in person just the other day out at Hallmark's Home and Family Show, listening to you explain how to determine if someone is lying, you crystallized so much that I think some people know intuitively. They know it, but they don't know it. And the way you explained it made so much sense.

I was watching the Hallmark movie last night, and there's the part where Haley is trying to determine if somebody's lying. And they are watching the body language, and they're listening to the inflection of people who were giving police statements. Now, you have listened very carefully, gone over it with a fine-tooth comb, Emily Glass, and those secretly recorded tapes made by private investigator David Marshburn.

I'm trying to reconcile, Susan, her death by long gun, shotgun, with what you know. What did you determine? What were your findings after listening to those hours and hours of audio? Well, there's no doubt in my mind with a high level of certainty that she did abuse and kill the son. There's no doubt in my mind. The text is clearly lays out every single word as I shared with you on the show and also on your other show. Every word was put there because the person who's speaking it is speaking from subconscious. So every word they say has meaning. Okay, right there. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. With me is former Kansas social worker Lori, and we're using that name, Joe Scott Morgan, Ashley Wilcott Lee Egan. Now you are like a warp

speed ahead of us, Susan Constantine, and what you're saying. Let me just speak for everybody since they didn't ask me to. What do you mean speaking from your subconscious? This is starting to sound like psychobabble. And I know you better than that. You got to break it down for us, okay? Okay. Yes, I truly can. So, in other words, what happens is that when somebody is speaking about an event and you ask them what happened, what we're listening for is where that event actually happened in their mind.

We're trying to understand from their mind how they pictured that event. And then they actually choose the words they say and how they perceive it. And that's where it's coming from the subconscious. The subconscious is what's already stored in their memory bank. And when you ask a question, they are naturally going to speak what is the most important thing to them in order. And that's just the way the brain works. How was your day today? And if somebody says it was good, most people will say, well, this is what happened. And this is what caused my day to be that way. So we always know that what first comes out, that first sentence that

somebody says is the most crucial because that gives the reason for the event. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Joe Scott, this is a yes. No. Did you understand that? No. Okay. Sorry. What she's saying, you can't help it if you're brilliant Susan guys don't hate her because she's brilliant wait a minute I think what she's saying is it the answer comes out it may not be exactly what you asked but what that person is thinking is gonna come out no matter what question you ask and the most important thing can often come at the beginning because that is what's foremost in their minds, I think is what she's saying. Tell me what that means about Emily Glass.

What did you learn? That, well, for example, is that the comment that she had made about the abuse that she was saying that, let me go back to it. I'm going to pull it up right now. She says the most important statement of all when she says, I did Lucas so wrong. And we talked about that. I is a first person pronoun. We know that I is linked to, to, um, ownership and truthfulness. So she takes ownership. I, and then she uses the word did, did as an act. And then Lucas is the victim. And then she mentioned, so she says, for example, I did Lucas so wrong. So meaning like, it's like Nancy, it might be saying, I haven't seen you in so long. Hello. It's so nice to see

you. It's been so long. So is, is associated with a length of time. And then she uses the word wrong. She chose those words. No one else chose them for her. She put them in. She's the one that spoke them. And the word wrong is the abuse. And then she says, I feel so sorry for him. And this is her. Her voice does show and sounds that there's remorse here because she actually starts to cry a little bit. And then she says, this is the God's honest truth. So that's also an affirmation, but it's also associated with deception. Honestly, you know, you know, I swear to God, etc. But you put those words together in order. I did Lucas so wrong is very clearly lays out that she caused the abuse and it happened over time. It wasn't just the first time. That is the crux of what we're looking at right now here on Crime Stories with an all-star lineup. Lori, going by that name, former Kansas social worker Susan Constantine, renowned psychologist and author regarding body language, forensics expert from Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan, Ashley Wilcott, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com,

investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com, Lee Egan, of course, Alan Duke and Jackie Howard with me. What we're talking about is what happened to Emily Glass. Is the plot thickening? No one is a suspect. Everybody's a suspect. We don't have a cause of death yet, but the circumstances surrounding her shooting death are highly questionable. But listen, as we try to determine her state of mind to what Susan Constantine is talking about, listen. I did Lucas so wrong. I did it wrong.

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Get started. The stunning and bizarre turn of events with the stepmother of Lucas Hernandez found dead in the home. Whose home was it? Who lived there? Was it suicide? If so, it's highly impractical that she could shoot herself with a rifle. I mean, think about the barrel is what Joe Scott Morgan with me, forensics expert. The barrel is, you know, at least two feet long or longer. Yeah, yeah, quite possibly, Nancy, depending upon the weapon. And then you have to hold it backwards, point it at yourself, and then I guess pull the trigger

with your thumb while holding the butt with your other four fingers. It's going to be very physically difficult, especially if she was in a suicidal frame of mind to pull that off. What more do we know, Lee Egan, regarding the discovery of her body? Well, we know that someone in the neighborhood said that she heard the gunshot at around midnight. There was also reporting, though, of a drive-by shooting at the same time. So police are unclear exactly when the gunshot was heard. But going by when Jonathan discovered her, it would have been around 1.30, 1.40 a.m. So we're still unclear exactly when it happened. We also just learned that from the

Wichita Police Officer Charlie Davidson says that there were three suicide notes found at the house there at 655 Edgemore. Interesting. Emily Glass found by Jonathan Hernandez. That's Lucas's father around 140 in the morning. Why did he come over? Why was he there? A lot of questions hanging in the air. Right now, we are waiting on the autopsy report.

Big question right now is the prior abuse on Lucas Hernandez. Who knew what? With me is Lori, and we're going by that name, former Kansas social worker. Lori, I don't understand how so many red flags were waved and nothing was done. Now Lucas is dead. Exactly. I know that in Wichita, they have so many cases of abuse and neglect. And sometimes people just look the other way. And I honestly believe that it's probably what happened with Lucas. But it was time after

time after time. Relatives from other states were sounding the alarm. I mean, how could you look the other way? Not you, but how could anybody? I think because some people don't take their job seriously another question who knew what about the prior abuse on little lucas listen to the father jonathan hernandez she she said that you know she woke up from a nap and uh i guess called for lucas called his name out and didn't hear anything back, went and looked in his room, and he was not there, so she turned around, and his room is off the kitchen, and so is the back door, so she said that when she looked in his room, didn't see him, turned around, and saw that the back door was ajar, then she had, like, I guess, ran out in a panic, looking for him, but also

went over to the neighbor's house, asked if they had seen him, and then called 911 or asked the neighbors to call 911, something like that. We did not. I honestly didn't even try to search. Only after speaking with the detectives and explained to them i don't think he would have wandered off so i don't believe that he is wandering around and also they had told me they haven't they didn't at the time have any leads as far as the tracking dogs following any sense that had left the residents on foot you're listening to the sound of me discussing this

with Lucas's own father, the bio dad, who was out of town at the time Lucas goes missing, Jonathan Hernandez. But he was on the scene and actually called 911 to report Emily Glass has been shot. So Susan Constantine, author of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Reading Body Language on Amazon. Susan, what do you make of what you just heard of the dad? Okay, well, lots of things.

Okay, let's start out with the change of what we call pronouns. You hear this pausing and hesitation. And then we hear we, we, I, I shows conflict between the two. For example, he more than likely wanted to go out and look. And that's where the we, we came in from. But then apparently she doesn't. And that's where the I, I comes in from. And then he says that he, he didn't even try to start looking. So try is an attempted failure. So all of it, when you kind of look at this entire context, you're listening to the pausing, the hesitations, that he's going out to go look for

Lucas, that he's just not just running around. He's constantly making excuses for Emily. The question is why? Because he seems to take a passive role throughout the entire interview. Nancy, this is Ashley. Can I add something about that piece in statistics and what I see as a judge? Yes. People do that all the time. This is what infuriates me. Partners, boyfriends, girlfriends, husbands, spouses, wives that abuse children.

The partner in the home knows it, sees it, sees the bruises and doesn't do anything about it. Why? I don't know. I can just tell you that that's a problem. Well, here's the thing. Let me defend him regarding some of this. I remember my dad had to be gone all the time with the railroad. Okay. And the crazy thing was he never knew his schedule, Ashley Wilcott. And he would drive a hundred miles to a job one night. Then he'd drive 50 miles the next night. Then he'd drive 10 miles the next night. We never knew what night he would be gone, what day he would be gone, when he could get work before he got into a regular pattern. He was like that for several years, just doing anything to hold on to a job, right? So it was hard, I'm sure, for my mom and the three of us without my dad there. Now, think about this guy, Jonathan Hernandez,

having to be involved in the oil business for weeks on end, away, like on an oil rig. Nothing you can do about it, right? That's your job. Either you don't work or you have to be away from home. And that, according to what we've learned, is when the abuse would occur, not while he was there. Now, the other day, we had with us two of emily glass's friends they seemed to point the finger at jonathan hernandez as the one who was abusing lucas before his death but that's not exact that's not what the police report showed to my understanding

lee egan if you look back at the dcs reports i personally don't see how he could not have known exactly no right now i'm talking about doing it did i i don't see how he could have been the one beating the boy i don't see it hey look if it's him to h e double l with him if it's him but i don't see that it's him because he seemed from what i can see to be gone out of town when lucas is abused and the relatives were honing in on emily glass not him am i if i'm wrong tell me i i care more about the truth than being right just tell me no you're you're correct what i was saying was i don't think that he was completely unaware of it. There's no way he could have been because he was home during times when police were called to the house.

And it had to do with a lot of violence and between apparently both of them, according to the report. So I just don't see how he could just be completely in the dark over what she was doing to Lucas. You know, that's an interesting thing to Ashley Wilcott, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, Ashley, having worked as a volunteer at the Battered Women's Center for nine years at night while I was prosecuting felonies during the day, very often when you have domestic abuse between the mom and the dad, you'll find abuse on the children too. Not always, but it happens frequently. Why? Is it just the atmosphere of violence?

Yeah, I think absolutely. And if you have someone who's going to abuse a spouse, they're also as likely to abuse a child. I don't think they have the capacity to say, I'm going to abuse one and not the other. It goes all around the house. To our expert, Lori, former Kansas social worker. Lori, I'd like to get your insight into what happened to Lucas. This is just my non-professional opinion. I think at the end, this is my thought because of the date that they said maybe he might have passed away and Lucas and Emily and Jonathan were together. I think that Emily and Emily and Jonathan had gotten to an argument. And I think that Lucas got hurt. And I think that he was killed that weekend that Jonathan left to go back to Mexico or to Texas to work. And I think that is the weekend that he was hurt and killed.

And that is the weekend they decided to take him. Now, wait a minute. You're saying that they were together when he was hurt, but you're also saying he was away when Lucas was hurt. And let's not put perfume on the pig. He wasn't hurt. He was killed. Yeah, he was killed. And then he left after that. You're saying you think, Jonathan, the dad was home at the time the boy was killed? Yes, I do. I don't think that. Why would you say that, Lori? I mean, you're closer to it than we are. Tell me. Because of the timeline and the way that I see his demeanor and everything that's happened, I think that he's hit a lot and he's lied a lot. And I think from the get-go with his

media interview with KWCH and his actions and attitude, I think he's hit a lot. And I think that now that Emily's gone, I think he's going to have to come clean. Lori, what do you mean by that? I'm saying that nobody knows exactly what day Jonathan went back to work, to his job. So even though the neighbor boy said that he'd seen Lucas on the 11th or the 11th or 12th, well, I still say in my gut that Jonathan still helped with the disposal of Lucas's body. That's an interesting take. Lee Egan, you have been there. You have investigated.

You've been at the home. You've been in the neighborhood. You've been at the jail. You've been everywhere. Lee, I think at the most right now, he turned a blind eye to abuse on his child because, you know, like, for instance, when you're married, you think your spouse is cheating,. Because, you know, like for instance, when you're married, you think your

spouse is cheating, but you don't know. And you explain things away. Like, where's your husband? He's at work. He's working late, right? Yeah. It's Friday night. Yeah. Yeah. He's got a deal to close. Hello. He's sacked up in a hotel with somebody. Okay. So you don't want to know. You choose to believe the person because you love the person. You want to think good about the person. Let's talk about the facts, the evidence. It's the only thing that's going to get us through this, Lee. I don't think Lori's theory fits with the facts. I mean, am I wrong?

I thought the dad was gone when Lucas went missing. I think you're correct because there is one witness that is credible in seeing Lucas before the 17th. It was a neighbor that was right across the street. And his son, his children, played with Lucas and his two brothers on February 11th. That would put Jonathan not there because Jonathan left to go to work on the night. Now, this person has went on camera. He's given several interviews, and his story's never changed. He saw Lucas. He described him perfectly.

So I don't believe Jonathan was there when it happened. I mean, I could be wrong. That's just. No, no, I think you're right. Take a listen to this. This is Jonathan Hernandez, Lucas's dad's dad talking to me telling me what went through his mind and his heart and his body when he learned Lucas was missing I contacted my boss and I gathered up my things and I jumped in the car and I drove straight home 11 hours. We are all waiting on the autopsy report on Emily Glass,

the so-called stepmother of top boy Lucas Hernandez. Lucas goes missing. Three months pass while Emily seemingly is distraught and helping in the search. Turns out she leads private investigator David Marshburn to Lucas's little body under a bridge in a washed out culvert. Joining me, Lee Egan, Ashley Wilcott, Joseph Scott Morgan, Susan Constantine, a former Kansas social worker going by Lori for our program today. You know, I want to talk about the autopsy. Joe Scott Morgan, what the hay is taking so long? And what do you make of three suicide notes? Isn't that a tiny bit odd? Yeah, it is. I think that, yeah, let's talk about that first. The idea with suicide notes,

I think that a lot of the general public out there, they believe that most people are going to leave a suicide note. I worked more suicides than I ever did homicides, Nancy, and they generally outnumber, outpace about two to one in some locations, about three to one the number of homicides that you're going to have. It is atypical. It is atypical to find a suicide note. It's kind of like jumping off of a ledge, in my opinion, with suicide. Many people just decide to do it.

They don't take the time to ruminate and write notes. And the fact that there are three at the scene kind of gives me pause. I hope that they're going to take a very close look at these, particularly with, you know, this cloud of questions that just surrounds this child's death. Now, back to Lucas's autopsy. I'm, you know, be honest with you, Nancy, I don't know how much they have to work with. We saw the fact that, that his, his, I'm just going to be very blunt. His skull is there. All right. We saw the hair. The idea though, is that if there is no trauma to his skull, I don't know how much else you have to work with. We're talking about three months here.

So as far as the external physical findings like soft tissue, those things that we've always seen in cases of homicide where we have, say, for instance, like a strangulation or even suffocation, we might have a tiki eye in the eyes, all those sorts of things. They're just not going to be there. So that we'll be able to definitively say that this is, in fact, what killed him is going to be difficult, I would think, at this point. Now, they're talking about things like toxicology and all this. I don't know how much they're going to have to work with that either. And I don't know how much that's going to play into the death of a young child. You know, I guess they could say that he had some type of drug on board. Joe Scott, I appreciate all that. I'm talking about Emily Glass.

Okay. Why can't you ask? You know what drives me crazy, as you well know, when somebody acts really calm when I yell at them? Just show me a little like, oh, okay, I'm sorry, something like that. You know, just go with it, okay? Cool. Okay. Joe Scott, what's taking so long with the autopsy on Emily Glass? We still don't know. Is it homicide or suicide? We're just all saying suicide because we've been told there were three suicide notes. What's taking so long, Nancy, is that they want to try to determine if she had anything else going on board. I'm sure that they're probably going to hold off and wait

for toxicology to come back on her. As far as physical findings with her body, there will be definitive things that they will find if this is, in fact, a self-inflicted gunshot wound with a long weapon. Okay, like? Like range of fire. If, in fact, she did place that muzzle to her skin anywhere, there will be a point of contact. You cannot avoid this with a long gun if you are self-inflicting. It's not like a pistol. You have to anchor that weapon into your chest or into your head. So there will be searing that will be there.

There may even be internal soot deposit, which means when the blast comes out along with a projectile, you'll find soot inside of the wound. Now if this was fired at a great distance, you're not going to see that with her. And that means that they've got further investigation to do. So they're taking their time in this particular case. We've got to look at where on the body the injury occurred. If it was a shot to the side of the head, that's not going to be suicide with a long gun because there's practically no way you could physically do that. Often suicides are in the mouth to the front of the chest.

Wounds located anywhere else are most likely homicide statistically. You've got to look at the distance of the gun from the body. Suicide shots are at contact, ase scott morgan just said which is where it's the weapon is actually making contact with your skin or near contact range that will cause a burn mark okay around the wound it will leave gunpowder residue which can be wiped off but who's going to wipe it off if it's a suicide nobody at contact range if the gun is fired above a bone, such as your skull or your sternum, a star-like wound results. Anything further away is likely to be homicide. Joseph Scott Morgan, the star-like wound that results when you fire above a bone, like the sternum, which is your chest, or the skull. What is that star-like wound?

The star-like wound, we refer to that also as stellate, from stellar. The idea is that coming out of the muzzle of that weapon is superheated gas, Nancy. And what does gas do? We learned in the eighth grade science classes that hot air expands. So when this gas injects into the skin, it creates almost a ripping motion. And so you get this stellate pattern and they're not going to be perfectly star shaped, but that's the closest thing. If people at home will just think about at Christmas time, for instance, images that we have like of the star of Bethlehem, it looks very, very similar to that.

It's got these very sharp, high-pitched points on it. So this ripping takes place on these flat bones. And you nailed it because you mentioned sternum as well. Many people forget that. And in this particular case, I think that there's a high likelihood that she could have placed this weapon in her chest and contacted somewhere around the sternum. So that's something that they would. That is if, if it's suicide. Now, another thing, number of shots fired, that's obvious,

because after one shot, even if the victim isn't dead, she would be at least unconscious or unable to fire a second time. Multiple shots, that's going to be a homicide. Let me ask you this. I want to talk about the suicide note. To Lee Egan, investigative reporter with CrimeOnline.com. Lee, what do we know? Has the DA said anything about the suicide notes? Yeah, the DA, Mark Bennett, did say that the notes were read to him. He didn't read them himself, but they were read to him and his words were nothing dispositive about the Lucas case was found in the note. Huh. What Susan Constantine, psychologist, what does that mean

to you? Well, Nancy, do you remember when I was on the show on the Hallmark channel, what was the number of the lying number? Three. Yeah. So three, three is the number one lying number. There's three notes. So the question is, why is there three notes? What's in it? So there is some research that backs up that when people are being deceptive, they do things in threes. Three o'clock, 3.30, three times, three notes. That's just all I'm saying. Interesting. To Lee Egan, CrimeOnline.com, you said the DA announced there was nothing dispositive in the suicide notes as to Lucas's death and disappearance.

You mean there's nothing that proves anything, that settles anything, that disposes of the issue, correct? Correct. Let's talk about whether this is going to be suicide or homicide, because if this is not suicide, we've got whole nother can of worms here. We got to look at the angle of the shot. Most suicide shots are angled slightly upward. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, no stranger to a dead body. Joe Scott, why are they typically angled, if angled at all, angled upward? Well, in this particular case, Nancy, if it's, if it is a long gun, which they're talking about, she would literally, people have to envision her kind of hovering over this weapon above it with the butt of the weapon probably braced on the ground, her leaning into the weapon. So that explains why you're going to have an upward angle or upward trajectory with this particular shot. Joe Scott Morgan is seemingly going with the theory of the chest, and the reason is because if you're using a rifle, a long gun,

it's going to be easier to shoot yourself in the chest than in the head. The presence of gunpowder residue on victim's hand. If you shoot yourself, there's going to be powder residue from unburned carbon on the particular hand that pulled the trigger. Now, this is interesting, Joseph Scott Morgan. Shooting through clothing, a suicide victim rarely shoots through clothing. Isn't that odd? Very often, statistically, if you shoot yourself in the chest, which is actually usual, people, victims, open their shirt to expose skin. Don't know that.

Don't know why that is. So a shot through clothing in the chest could indicate homicide. I don't know if I completely buy that. But, yeah, I guess that that's quite possible, the exposure of the skin. Just to make sure that we're doing what we have to do. Remember, most people that do this are not familiar with how to take their life. So I think kind of subconsciously, the skin is exposed to pick out that particular area. I guess that that is a possibility, yes. Well, what about this? If there's any evidence of a struggle, if there are scratches, bruises, cuts on her body? Yeah, it's one of the things that you would look for on the backs of the hands

to see if there are any kind of bruising, this sort of thing, any kind of scratches. And also, also the other thing we have to think of, Nancy, is if there was a struggle, did she fight back against anyone else? So at autopsy, one of the things, and I hope that they did this with her, particularly in this case, we do something called nail scrapings, where we actually clip the nails after we have taken a little wooden spoon and pry it out, any kind of debris that might be under the nails. And one of the things that we're going to look for here is going to be things like skin cells and blood that do not belong to the victim. So yeah, there's any number of things we'll look for that might be indicative of a struggle. Now, remember, I'm not saying a woman would undress for suicide. Jackie's waving a note at me.

She's right. Very rarely are women found naked. I mean, it just, and I learned that firsthand. Ashley Wilcott on the Forest Lake, was it Lake Forest area of Atlanta, when a woman was found naked in bed with a gunshot wound to the head. I didn't know enough then, Ashley, to know statistically how wrong that scenario was. There's just something instinctive,

Ash, where women don't shoot themselves naked. That's right. And trust your gut, because statistically, that is very, very true. They don't. The other piece of evidence that I hope they'll really look at in this particular case are cell phone records, not only of Emily, but also of Jonathan. Do you remember, Nancy, the case where the teenage girl was talking to her boyfriend who was saying, I'm going to kill myself? And she goaded him on and she was tried for the crime and said, go ahead, kill yourself. Go ahead, do it. Oh, yes. Do you remember that?

Yes, yes. So I'm not saying that happened here, but I think it's really crucial for law enforcement to look at. Was Emily on the phone? Was she texting someone? If so, who was she talking to? Was Jonathan talking to her or texting her? And that's how he knew to go to the house to see if she killed herself. I just think cell phone records could give some really crucial information as to whether this was a suicide or a homicide. They're going to be looking. I mean, let's put it out there.

They're going to be looking at Jonathan Hernandez because he's the one that found the body. Absolutely. Whenever you find a body, people look at you. And when I spoke to him, he seemed very calm and in control of his faculties. But they're going to be looking at him, and he is not a suspect. He's not a person of interest because he found the body and he called 911. They're going to be looking at his cell phone records and pinging him to see was he there in the hour ahead of time. Yeah, of course they are.

That does not make him a suspect or a person of interest. That makes them doing the right thing and investigating everything. Now, here's a big mistake, Joe Scott. I'm leaning on you heavily to assume a case is suicide based on an initial report. When police get to the scene, they find three what they think are suicide notes that are not, quote, dispositive on what happened to Lucas. You can't assume anything. You can't just assume this is a suicide. That's a big mistake, Joe Scott. Yes, it is, because the principle that we work from, what I teach my students at Jacksonville State University and at the Police Academy, is this one fact. Our working assumption is that every case, and I mean every case, even if it's a 90-year-old grandma that appears that she's passed away in her sleep. Every case is in fact a homicide until

proven otherwise. And when you have a case like this, that's got so many unanswered questions swirling around, I'm going to look harder and harder at any peripheral case that happens to come up in this scenario. This being one of them, because this is a key. This lady is integral in everything that's happening in this. And I want answers. And, you know, and at this point, I think the real tragedy here is the fact that she may have taken what she knew to the grave. You know, you have to determine what's a better indicator of the truth, words or actions. What did she say in that so-called suicide note or three of them? How had she behaved before? We don't know of any previous suicide attempts. You have to look at case history. When there's been violence in the home, maybe conducted by her. You have to determine was this a suicide

or was this another act of violence? Once you hear the word suicide, very often cops have that mindset as they are investigating. Three basic investigative considerations. The presence of a weapon or means of death on the scene. Injuries or wounds that look self-inflicted, the existence of motive or intent on the part of the victim to take their own life. Listen to what Emily Glass's friends say. Two of her best friends, when I asked them, would she commit suicide? Do you believe she shot herself? because she asked Jonathan, will you meet up with me? No tape recorders, no cameras, no videos, nothing, no phones.

I want to talk to you about everything that happened that night. And Jonathan told to a friend, I cannot meet up with her, because if I do, I'm not sure I won't kill her. Are you suggesting that the father of Lucas Hernandez shot Emily Glass, the stepmother? Yes, I am. Let me just say here that while Jonathan Hernandez, the father of Lucas Hernandez shot Emily Glass, the stepmother. Yes, I am. Let me just say here that while Jonathan Hernandez, the father, was in the home where Emily is shot and did call 911, to my understanding, there is no evidence at all that he shot Emily Glass. They are saying she would never have committed suicide. They seemingly are trying

to implicate, or not trying to, they seemingly are implicating Jonathan Hernandez in her death. They also claim it was all part of a Wiccan plot, which is witchcraft, okay? So you gotta take that whole thing with a box of salt, okay? Not a pinch, A box of salt. Because I do not think Wiccan witchcraft had anything to do with this. Now, Jonathan Hernandez, let me state again, is not a person of interest in Emily or Lucas's death, nor is he a suspect in either of them, all right? The investigation goes on. So much riding on the autopsy results of Emily Glass as well as top boy Lucas Hernandez. At this time, no one is a suspect or a person of interest. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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