Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'Tot Fight Club' exposed, but why aren't daycare workers charged?

Episode Date: November 2, 2018

A Missouri mom is furious to learn her 4-year-old was forced to fight other tots at daycare and she's even madder that authorities haven't taken action against the daycare workers. Nancy Grace explores the shocking "Tot Fight Club" with a panel including New York psychologist Caryn Stark, North Carolina family & divorce lawyer Kathleen Murphy, private investigator Vincent Hill, Atlanta juvenile judge & lawyer Ashley Willcott, and syndicated radio host David Mack. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Find out how to protect your child when you're out at the mall or the store or the grocery, in the parking lot, at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters and daycare, even online. I'd rather have that any day of the week than a plastic toy or, God forbid, a toy gun. Join Justice Nation. Go to crimestopshere.com. Goodbye, friend. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. No one's being held accountable, and if I'm not a voice for my children who will be? I don't know any parent that could watch their children go through this and not be upset. In the video he's wiping his face over and over again.

The daycare worker, you see her walk over to him and tell him, you know, you're fine, and, like, pat him on the back, and then walk and start another fight with other kids. When we chose a new daycare for him and he started going, he asked me in the car if they were going to make him fight. Oh, my stars. Just hearing that mother is making me tear up if i were to find out that my children were forced to fight each other on video just so the daycare workers or the teachers who were bored and had nothing else to do what were they taking bits I'm talking about a bona fide tot fight a Fight Club and take care on video with bored office workers taking

bets forcing the children back in the ring the crying tots who didn't want to fight each other I I can't even believe I'm saying these words. May they all rot in hell, okay? That's for heaven to decide. I'm going to help decide what happens to them here on earth in court. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I am so mad I could chew a nail in half.

Joining me right now, syndicated talk show host Dave Mack, New York psychologist Karen Stark, founder of childcrimewatch.com, child judge and lawyer Ashley Wilcott, Vincent Hill, author and founder of a podcast, Fall of a Titan, and Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina, specializes in family law. Dave Mack, you know what? Hold me back, all right? Hold me back. What happened? It was a six-year-old child. His little brother was being forced by these two daycare workers to put on the Incredible Hulk hands and do battle in a fight club that was all about daycare kids. So you've got the taught fight club. And the only reason we know about it is because an older brother could not believe his younger brother was being forced to hit his best friend at this daycare

because the workers were bored. Guys, we're talking about a fight club taking place at the Adventure Learning Center in St. Louis. Nicole Murciel's four-year-old tot was one of the toddlers forced to fight. Her 10-year-old filmed some of the fighting and sent his mommy the video. I can't take in what's really happening here. The video is so upsetting. A horrified Missouri mom now on the rampage, and do you blame her? Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge and lawyer, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, what is your understanding of what happened? These daycare workers actually did that, put them in the ring, made them fight.

And you see kids crying, not wanting to fight, not understanding what's going on, fighting their best friends. And they were made to do it. What's going on is a crime, child endangerment at a minimum. You know, I am thinking about raising the children. And a lot of you guys joining me right now have been with me from the get go when I announced on live TV that I was pregnant. And think blue and pink. I think I'm going to cry just saying it when I announced I was having a boy and a girl. Karen Stark, I think you were actually with me that night on the set in Manhattan. And I'm just getting chill bumps remembering it. And to think, you know, children come into the world innocent. I'm convinced a lot of people

think children come into the world either mean or bad or naughty. I disagree. They are not only, you know, they're not only created by nature, but they are nurtured to grow up a certain way. It's hard for me to take in that little tots as young as four are trained to go into a fight ring and fight each other, actually exchange blows, even though they're crying and begging to stop, Karen. It's abusive, Nancy. There's no doubt about it. This is abuse. And I've heard stories like this, where parents have actually put boxing gloves on their kids and made them fight the parent or each other. And you know that that is not what you find in a typical family and has a traumatic lasting effect on the kids. I am so glad that this mother is coming forth and doing something about it and have no idea how a daycare could allow something like that to happen. You know, if the 10-year-old uh who had not filmed the fight club which was taking place there at adventure learning center on his ipad we would never know about it because children

this young oh my stars i'm looking at it right now good lord in heaven you can see this at CrimeOnline.com. It's like a cockfight where you have people all standing around. Oh, my stars. I'm seeing the teacher standing by in her UGG boots cheering, cheering. And oh, my. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Dave Mack. Everybody, I hope you're looking at this right now, the video.

The teacher is telling and gesticulating for the little boy to start kicking the kid that's down. She's jumping up like in glee, the teacher, and cheering and doing kicking motions like a coach would from the sidelines. Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, help me out. This lady needs to go to jail. Nancy, this is the worst scenario as a mom and as a grandmother, that this person now works at the child care center where my child is because she has a clean record. Because nobody with the state of Missouri has held her accountable. care center where my child is because she has a clean record because nobody

with the state of Missouri has held her accountable neither one of those teachers have faced prosecution that is unacceptable because now they will be in a scenario where they're gonna do the same type of neglectful abusive behavior again and my child could be hurt. Get them out. One of these clips shows a teacher jumping up and down in glee. I can only describe it as glee. As another teacher puts a Hulk smash hand,

they're gloves like the Hulk has, looks like his hands, on the toddler's hand. And then they start throwing punches into the face. Even one kid pounding the tot's head into the floor over and over and over as the other children gather around just watching. And the teacher is cheering. Only one person tries to break up the fight and it's not a teacher. It's another preschooler who runs in and tries to pull the one kid off the other one. These are tots,

tots, but they're fighting and the teacher's right there egging them on, telling him to kick the guy who's down. The little boy can't break up the fight. The only person trying to break up the fight is another tot. It doesn't even look real to me. Vincent Hill, where do you start in trying to investigate? Everybody, Vincent Hill with me, cop turned PI, author of Playbook to a Murder on Amazon, and creator of a new podcast, Fall of a Titan. Vincent Hill, how do you even begin investigating a case like this? Because none of your witnesses can really verbalize what happened. Well, I think the proof is in the video, Nancy,

and Ashley alluded to it earlier, child endangerment. But I would actually charge them also with child exploitation because one of the elements of that is an activity that the child is forced to take part in that could cause emotional, physical, or social problems. And I think all three of those were caused by what we saw. And what's sickening about this, Nancy, is those teachers recorded this on their cell phones for whatever use. So I would charge them to the highest extent of child exploitation. You know, I'm thinking about the teacher standing around, standing around watching all of this happen.

To Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us from Manhattan today, what is that thinking of a teacher standing by and letting this happen? They're getting vicarious thrills, Nancy. It's projection of their own desire to be able to partake in an experience like that. And they're not seeing kids as kids. They're seeing them as something that they can manipulate and handle. And no one is thinking, as Vincent just said, about the future of these kids, they're seeing them as something that they can manipulate and handle. And no one is thinking, as Vincent just said, about the future of these kids, how they will go and recover from an

experience like this. They're going to be scarred for life because they were part of this kind of a situation. It really is sadistic. Vincent, we were talking about the video earlier it was one of the the brothers that actually videoed it he was so distraught seeing his teacher standing on the sidelines yelling and screaming and you got to look at this guys go to crime online.com and see this video it's upsetting that's true but you've got to see this teacher actually gesticulating to the little boys fighting to kick him, kick him, kick him. I want you to hear the mom, Lisa Marcel. She's talking to KTVI about her son in the video.

No one's being held accountable. And if I'm not a voice for my children, who will be? I don't know any parent that could watch their children go through this and not be upset. In the video, he's wiping his face over and over again. The daycare worker, you see her walk over to him and tell him, you know, you're fine and like pat him on the back and then walk and start another fight with other kids. When we chose a new daycare for him and he started going, he asked me in the car if they were gonna make him fight.

You're gonna see this. Potato. Boom. Boom. Oh my God. Oh, oh, oh. Get off the way. Oh. Oh, my God. Get off the way.

He doesn't understand why his friends were fighting him, why he got beat up by his best friends. And it was on his fourth birthday. The daycare workers were making them fight, not helping them. You first heard raw audio, a video, a little boy took of the so-called Tot Fight Club. As it was happening, he was so distraught to see his little brother getting beat up. He recorded it with his iPad he had at school. I mean, the teacher standing around, egging it on, laughing, cheering, gesticulating for the little boy to kick the guy that was down on the floor. And this kid videos it.

And you just heard that followed by the mom speaking to KTVI TV in St. Louis, describing what happened. I'm just I'm just so distraught right now. Back to Dave Max, syndicated talk show host. Let's start at the beginning. Tell me about the daycare center. It's one of those traditional daycare centers, Nancy, but they had apparently, according to one of these women who was accused, and I don't understand why they haven't been prosecuted, but they have the laundry list of children in various age groups from babies all the way up until right before they start public school. And one of these daycare workers gave two different accounts of why she was doing it.

Apparently, Nancy, they actually cleared out a downstairs room to take the children out of their normal play areas and took them down to this other room to actually stage the fighting because when she said that they moved them down there because there was a heating problem or an air problem and yet they actually had a separate room for this taught fight club and then of course she gave the excuse that well they ran out of things to do that's why they were fighting but this was an everyday thing. This was really, you know, the only reason we only heard about it from a 10-year-old taking a video is because you know the rules of Fight Club. You don't talk about Fight Club. And

apparently, if you're three or four, you're not allowed to think about it. You're just having to do what an adult tells you to do. It's despicable. Why are these people not in jail? Yeah, I don't get that at all. Another thing is this mom who is speaking out, Lisa Murseel, she said that her other son videoed it of his younger brother, just four, who was just crying and couldn't stop because he had already been in three fights, three fights. You know, I don't understand. Ashley Wilcott, you're the juvenile judge and lawyer. You're the founder of childcrimewatch.com. Where are the criminal charges on this woman? I cannot understand it either, Nancy. There's absolutely no reason in the world I can think of. Think about this. Do you remember the professional football player who was engaged

in dog fight who went to jail as a result yeah michael vick michael vick right and so this is it's just even worse but it's the same in terms of innocent beings innocent children being made to fight why in the world they are not facing conviction and facing criminal charges and spending time in jail is absolutely beyond me. There's no fathomable reason, especially when, as Vincent Hill said, you actually have videotape of them doing this crime. Well, here's the other thing. Catch this. I hope you're all sitting down.

This place actually has video recorders, surveillance video, and the daycare surveillance video cameras recorded at least 30 minutes of the fight club the fight club top fight i mean i'm 30 minutes and they're still not bringing charges kathleen murphy you got to help me out here where are the criminal charges. I agree with Ashley Wilcott. I am livid, but the biggest problem is, are these two women still, in 2018, taking care of little children? And if I was the parent, and they were taking care of my children, and I didn't know this because they failed to prosecute these individuals. I would want answers. It is unfathomable that they have not been prosecuted. Well, this is clearly a case of child abuse.

Ashley Wilcott, the lead teacher, actually gave a statement reportedly stating that the teachers organized the tut fight to try and, quote, entertain the children after the heater break. What happened to finger painting? What about that? Has anybody thought of that? Or the little game where you sit in a circle and you play telephone and you pass the word by whisper all the way around and see how it turns out in the end? Or duck, duck, goose, goose?

I mean, what about that right so child abuse includes as a definition without excuse me proper supervision or control which is the case here it is not only improper lack of supervision it's making the kids do this it doesn't make any sense there's so many things that daycare is set up to do for children and the good day cares why in the world would they have these children engaged in this activity? It's beyond sickening to me. It makes me so absolutely livid, angry, because the other thing this does is create children who can become adults

who believe that senseless violence is the answer, and that's bad. You know, I'm all about not having them grow up as adults that think violence is okay. What I want right now, I want these women behind bars. I want them behind bars. Now, listen to this. I know you were sitting down earlier. You maybe shouldn't lay down for this one. The St. Louis Circuit Attorney's Office declined to prosecute the daycare. It's still in operation today quote there was insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt

that any laws were violated that is an official statement from the st louis circuit attorney's office i've never been so embarrassed by prosecutions in my life, except the embarrassment of the Duke Lacrosse fiasco. This is so wrong for them not to prosecute when adults in charge of children not only do nothing, but actively organize, taught fights. It's overwhelming. Take a listen to ABC's Lindsay Davis. One teacher told investigators she let the kids fight as a stress release after the daycare's heater broke. Those two teachers never faced criminal charges. The Department of Health and Senior Services tells us they did conduct an investigation and they required the facility to do additional training.

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But with increased inspections, eight visits since document 26 wide-ranging violations, though none exactly like the fight club incident. What no prosecution after the teachers arranged for tots little children to fight over and over and over again after clearing out a downstairs room egging them on the children crying as the teacher stands by I can only describe as giddily cheering them on making them kick each other. I mean it goes on and on until one older brother gets the ipad he brings to school with him to daycare with him and videos it and takes it to his mom that's the only way this was ever discovered but for some reason authorities there in st louis are doing nothing what do you mean insufficient evidence? It's on video, not just

the kids' video, but the daycare surveillance caught at least 30 minutes of top fight. Inspections at the daycare were increased. So what? So what? When an adult commits a crime, you don't just lose your job. You go to jail. You go to to jail a four-year-old has claimed one of the teachers cursed at him grabbed him pushed him to the ground one day caregiver was seen grabbing a three-year-old child by the arm and dragging them across the floor. And during this incident, the top fight, the daycare director had been standing in the classroom. Now, I'm not sure if that was during the video or during the dragging episodes. I can tell you right now, not enough has been done following the fight club.

And the little boy still doesn't understand that fighting, being forced to fight at daycare is not normal. I still don't understand why charges are not being filed. I want to go out to Karen Stark, New York psychologist, joining us. What about it, Karen? What kind of impact are these children going to have? Well, not only will it have a lasting impact on them, Nancy, and they will feel like they did something wrong because kids don't understand that they're not responsible for a situation like this. And they internalize all of it. But

when they get to be adults, I found with my own patients that very often they believe that it's normal. They have a memory of fighting with a sibling, having a parent push them on and encourage them, and they don't understand how much it's really affected them until they start reliving it again. To Ashley Wolcott, what do you think? I absolutely agree with that. And the other, and so the trauma they have endured, they're going to have to get some type of treatment for people who are caring and understand how to treat it to deal with it so they understand those things that Karen just described. Nancy, the other thing I want to say about this is let's talk about the

prevention piece that's so important. How can parents prevent this from happening? Because you think you pick a daycare and they're going to take care of your children and love your children and do the right things with your children. And then you find out from a sibling's video, oh my God, look what these teachers did to my kids. And I think that's why it's important, obviously, to make sure you investigate any type of facility that you put your children in. And also, it's the reason why now a lot of daycares offer the surveillance, is what I would call it, so that you can actually go on your computer and see what your children are doing at all times of the day. If you want your voice to be heard, contact the St. Louis Circuit Attorney. The St. Louis Circuit Attorney is Kim Gardner, G-A-R-D-N-E-R.

And her phone number is 314-622-4941. Repeat, 314-622-4941. Because I'd like to find out, why isn't she doing anything about this? And I want to go back. Vincent Hill, I'm sure, I mean, you're the sports guy with us. Playbook to a murder book, podcast, Fall of a Titan. I covered Michael Vick's animal cruelty trial live when it happened. Okay? cruelty trial live when it happened okay he went to jail and forfeited an NFL career over having dog fights these are children Vincent and nothing is happening with surveillance video Vincent help me Nancy I wish I could but

I'm befuddled as well not only only as a police officer, but as a parent. I think my justice initially would be, oh, you want to fight? I'll show you a fight. But, you know, we have to go with the law. And I don't understand why the prosecutors did not prosecute on this, Nancy. I think everyone on this panel would be befuddled of why that didn't't happen because everything you need for that prosecution is there in that video that brother took of the fight i mean guys a lot of us have children on this panel can you imagine i mean my my son john david he's a lover not a fighter at all and um i

don't know if this is wrong or right but he had a bully at school that tormented him for two years one time even punched him in the stomach that was the day mommy let all hell break loose in the carpool pickup line yeah and you know what I'm proud of that moment. For the previous two years, it had been subtle bullying, like tripping him as he walked by, nudging him, pushing him, claiming it was an accident, knocking him down during soccer, claiming that was an accident. When I finally did meet with the authorities at the school, guess what? There were 21 other children represented that had also been bullied.

Yeah, and I mean punched, kicked, pushed down, the works, ugly things said to little girls by the boy bully. The girl bullies are a lot more subtle with just their words but with physical violence there absolutely is something parents can do there is and it was done and i had no idea other parents were suffering in silence when their children were afraid, didn't want the mom or the dad to speak out. It happens all the time. What's so heartbreaking here is that the teachers were actually involved. So let me go to you, Kathleen Murphy. If this were prosecuted, you're the North Carolina family lawyer.

What would the charges be, Kathleen? I couldn't put enough charges on these people, Nancy. And my personal story is making my reaction to the story this important. My son was bullied in fifth grade by his teacher. In fifth grade, the teacher was telling the boys that they were going to get their butts kicked in middle school, that they were losers. It went on and on. It was profanity in the classroom. We all complained. My son is now in seventh grade, and I see the effects today, very day.

Today is his first therapy appointment because of what that teacher did to my son. So when Ashley said these people, parents need to make sure that they vet the daycare, how are we able to vet the daycare when the teachers do not have the criminal record that they so richly deserve. You know what? You're right. How can they? Alan Duke, if you don't know about the teacher's history or even their work history, where they've been fired, how can you evaluate the daycare center or the babysitter? Yeah. And if they choose not to prosecute or discipline in some way, or if there's a license that could be revoked, you never know. And they keep repeating and

repeating and repeating. And there's absolutely no tracking to that. So that's disturbing. Now, I've got a four-year-old grandson and I just could not imagine finding out this happened. My biggest challenge when they're with me is to keep my four- and five-year-old from hitting each other. You know, John David and Lucy was specifically my sweet little shy Lucy. She would sit there so sweetly. I remember I was doing a show at HLN one night, and, of course, I had the nanny cam on watching them. And Lucy and my husband was sitting there asleep in his chair. Thanks, David. And Lucy, they were both sitting there in their little pretend sofas with Dora and Lightning McQueen on them.

And they were watching, I don't know, not Dora, but, oh, the Kratts, the Wild Kratts, the two comic brothers that discover animals in the wild. And all of a sudden, I see Lucy sneak up behind John David and hit him in the head with a block, a wooden block. And, of course, all H-E-L-L breaks loose. I nearly had a fit. So, you know, since those tot days, they really don't hit too much anymore. But at the time, it was all I could do to just keep them apart. They were like two wild animals.

This is not helping these children grow up. Now, that's a whole child development issue. I'm not a shrink. I'm a prosecutor. I'm a trial lawyer. And I'm telling you, these women need to go to jail. With child endangerment misdemeanor in that jurisdiction, it goes up to 12 months. Felonies, 1 to 10 years. What about it?

What's wrong? Why isn't that happening, Dave Mack? According to the prosecutors, they just had insufficient evidence to prosecute this case. But I got to add one last thing. The idea of Nancy Grace throwing a fit in a line at school cracks me up. That kind of owns me. Got to be honest with you. I, oh, yeah, that moment still makes me so upset and angry.

Because like I was saying, John David, he's a lover, not a fighter. And he just really didn't even know how to react when he got punched in the stomach on the playground. Um, it, it, I'd rather somebody do it to me than do it to my children. I'm, I'm all for this mom suing Dave Mack, joining me syndicated talk show host. Tell me about the mom suing. Since the city, since a circuit attorney won't do anything. The mom is suing, but I was going to ask you about this because she's only suing for $25,000 and it's going to be a civil case, I guess. But $25,000 doesn't seem like much considering the fact that she has been failed. She's a mom who had her killed

kids in daycare and finds out that she her children both of them the 10 year old is upset because he had to videotape his own little brother getting beat up and you've got the other one that's now concerned about what kind of trust issues he's going to have with his friends because it was his best friend that was pounding him with the whole cans so So the mom is suing for $25,000. But I got it. That just doesn't sound like nearly enough on top of the lack of criminal charges. Take a listen to this. In the video, he's wiping his face over and over again. The daycare worker, you see her walk over to him and tell him, you know, you're fine and like pat him on the back and then walk and start another fight with other kids. When we chose a new daycare for him and he started going he asked me in the car

if they were gonna make him fight. You're gonna see this summer. Potato! Boom! Boom! Oh my god! Oh! Oh! Oh! Get out the way! You said everybody would have a hand.

He punched him in the face. They're fighting. He wouldn't have had his iPad on him that day. Who knows if we even would have found out about this. The state really just gave him a slap on the hand. In the video, he's wiping his face over and over again. The daycare worker, you see her walk over to him and tell him, you know, you're fine and like pat him on the back and then walk and start another fight with other kids. When we chose a new daycare for him and he started going,

he asked me in the car if they were going to make him fight. Welcome back, everybody. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. You just heard mom Lisa Murseel telling KTVI TV that her son's face is clearly visible in the video, and it is. It is visible in the video. I'm looking at it right now at crimeonline.com, and I don't understand how the circuit attorney, Kim Gardner, is claiming she doesn't have enough evidence to prosecute this case because Vincent Hill, cop turned PI, I can see the kid very clearly who he is, and I can also identify the teacher standing on the sideline,

egging him on, telling him to kick, kick the little boy. Several teachers, you can see them, and daycare workers, you can see their faces very clearly, Vincent. Yeah, Nancy, I don't know what evidence she's looking for unless, you know, she's looking for statements from the witnesses. But the witnesses are minors. They're toddlers, so they can't even testify in court anyway. So I don't know what's going on here, Nancy. Again, I'm befuddled. So what could we do now, Ashley Wilcott, if we wanted to push this forward in a criminal charge? Well, listen, first of all, it shows like yours, Nancy, so you can put a spotlight when there's

a failure of our justice system. The second thing is I'm so proud of this mother for doing a civil suit because it's needed in this case where the criminal justice system has failed her and isn't pursuing charges. The third is people need to call into that district attorney's office because there are charges they could press. I do not agree. I cannot believe there's insufficient evidence to prosecute in this particular case. What it says to you, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina family lawyer, is that it results in imminent risk or harm to a child's health and welfare due to physical, emotional, or sexual abuse. Now, if this does not affect a child's welfare, I don't know what does. It absolutely affects the child's welfare, and I would love it if you would say the name of the prosecutor and her phone number again. Sure, it's Kim Gardner, G-A-R-D-N-E-R, phone number 314-622-4941. Repeat, 314-622-4941. The statute of limitations has not run in this case to our understanding.

This case can still be prosecuted. Let your voice be heard. When you hear this story, think about substituting your child in this scenario. Your child, your niece, your daughter, your son, your grandchild, just four years old, being forced to go back in the ring after three consecutive fights. The teacher pushing him back in. The child down on the floor on his back, crying, crying as he's beaten by another student at the direction of the teacher. Tot fight has to stop. These women need to be behind bars so they can't hurt any more children. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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