Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Tot Mom Casey Anthony can’t keep her stories straight, machete man goes for tots in Walmart

Episode Date: March 29, 2018

The Casey Anthony trial is one of the most sensational cases of this century and it's the first to be debated by Nancy Grace and Dan Abrams in their new A&E TV show. Grace assembles a panel of Anthony experts for this episode to talk about Tot Mom, including lawyer Troy Slaten, child welfare law expert Ashley Willcott, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum, WSB Radio reporter Robyn Walensky and WFLA-TV reporter Meredyth Censullo. Nancy is also joined by Kenner, Louisiana, Police Lt. Brian McGregor to explore a scary attack in a Walmart. A man armed with a machete tried to kidnap 2 children at the checkout line, but a determined mom and brave store workers stopped him. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. I don't give a s*** about what anybody thinks about me. I don't care about that. I never will. I'm okay with myself. I sleep pretty good at night. search for the child. And in the end, the body of the little girl is found just 10 houses from mommy's home. Quite the coincidence, right? I'm talking about top mom, Casey Anthony. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us tonight, March 29, 11 p.m., Grace versus Abrams on A&E. Please join me. We bring on witnesses and evidence that have never been heard nor seen by a jury. Testimony that I believe would have changed the course of the verdict. With me right now in all-star lineup, Troy Slayton, high-profile lawyer out of L.A.,

Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert professor at Jacksonville State University, crime scene investigator Cheryl McCollum, WSB radio star Robin Walensky, Ashley Wilcott, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, Meredith Ciccillo, WFLA-TV, to break it down and put it back together again. But first, listen to Dan Abrams.

You don't see how it could have possibly been an accident. Kaylee's body was found double-bagged and trash-bagged. Yes, true. And you're saying that could have been an accident. We knew at the trial that she was lying about everything. Do you think that Casey Anthony murdered Kaylee? That's a trick question. I don't see how that's a trick question.

Straight to Meredith Censulo, WFLA-TV. I was just in Orlando, Meredith, and everywhere I looked, I had the twins with me for spring break. Everywhere I looked, all I could see was Kelly Anthony. It just, it's amazing to me that top mom, Casey Anthony, walks free and at trial tried to blame her own father, George Anthony. But just recently, Meredith, she gave an AP interview. interview they said what do you think really happened to Kaylee goes I don't know the last time I saw her she was alive take a listen to this give me the situation when things went wrong when did things go wrong all of a sudden it's like

where's Kaylee like is that how it went no what I remember is being in bed, my mom coming in before she left her work and saying goodbye to us. And then waking up several hours later. Later in the morning. Later in the morning. Hour, two hours later, not knowing where she was. Well, that's not what they said at trial. Did she forget she claimed her child drowned in the pool and her dad threw the body away? Well, you know, Nancy, this whole case was built on Casey's house of lies. There were so many lies

unveiled through the testimony that kept getting shot down. But unfortunately, at the end of the day, a jury here in the Tampa area, they had to move the trial. As you know, the jury decided that they were going to believe Casey. They were going to believe that there was more than a reasonable doubt to convict her. And those of us sitting here and following the case and watching it could see, wait, no, that's a lie. That's a lie. That's a lie. So many lies from her employment to what she was doing for all that time. The month in between when she last saw her parents and, and then finally said that Kaylee was missing. Everything she said,

a zanny the nanny, doesn't exist. All of that lies. None of it exists with Meredith Cianciullo. You're absolutely right. To Robin Walensky, WSB, we went through every single fact at that trial. And, you know, Robin, let's start at the beginning. Hold on. I got ahead of myself. For those of you just joining us tonight, the premiere of Grace vs. Abrams. And we kick it off with new evidence and witnesses that I believe, if they had been brought to trial, there would be a different verdict. And I mean that.

Robin Walensky, WSB. Start at the beginning about how Kelly, two-year-old little Kelly, goes missing. Right, Nancy. You know, we sat through every day of this trial together for six weeks. I can remember the start of the timeline when the prosecutors laid it out. She was gone for 31 days. And then suddenly no one knows where she is. And Casey Anthony, as they set a trial, she had more characters, more fictitious characters that she told lies to the police

than Disney has characters. And she was, you know, a nonstop liar. The child goes missing. And then it's her mother, Cindy Anthony, that her car is abandoned and they get the car out of the tow place and she opens the trunk and she calls 911 and she actually says it smells like there's been a dead body in the car. And what's another interesting point about that? Let me go to Ashley Wilcott,

founder of childcrimewatch.com, juvenile judge and advocate. Ashley, here's the thing that I don't think was ever really focused on. The car, top mom Casey Anthony's car, was found in a tow lot. She, according to the state, had killed her baby, all right, probably through homemade chloroform. There's a search on her computer for homemade chloroform. The car reeked of chloroform. There's a search on her computer for homemade chloroform. The car reeked of chloroform. Chloroform was found in her car trunk.

I guarantee there's not chloroform in my car trunk. And as the mother, Cindy, says on the 911 call when she finally tracks down the car, it smells like a dead body in the damn car. Those were her words on 911. As Cindy, the grandmother, is piecing together her granddaughter's missing. Her daughter's been on the run for 31 days and the car smells like a dead body. And here's the point. It's in a tow lot. Tot mom had not reported the car missing. Nothing. It was fine with her. She wanted that car to get stolen because there was evidence

of a dead body in the trunk. Hold her. I've tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, about a minute. Okay, did you guys call and report a vehicle stolen? Yes, my mom did. Okay, so has there been a vehicle stolen vehicle stolen to know this is my vehicle. What vehicle was stolen? Um, it's a 98 Pontiac Sunfire. Okay. I have deputies on the way to you right now for that.

But now you're now you're three old to be a three year old is missing. Kaylee Anthony. Okay. White female. Yes. White female. Three years old, eight, nine, 2005, her date of birth? Yes. And you lost all her a month ago? 31 days. From 31 days. Who has her? Do you have a name? Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter? She's been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years. Why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago? I've been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid. Okay. Can you give me the name of the nanny again? Like, spell it out for me.

Zenaida. Z-E-N-A-I-D-A. Last name? Fernandez. Fernandez. Hyphen Gonzalez. Two. Ashley Wilcott, weigh in.

Absolutely, this mother was complicit if she didn't actually murder the child. There is no way, given all of those facts and the chloroform in the trunk and the smell in the trunk and the trunk and the car and the impound lot, clearly she was complicit. Now, hold on. You said if she didn't do it but was complicit. What do you mean by that? What other scintilla of evidence do you have that someone else was involved? I don't have any other evidence, but what we don't have is a cause of death for the child. So either she did it or maybe somebody else did do it or had the child was babysitting and killed the child and she knew and didn't protect the child and said, okay, I'm going to bury the child in the backyard. I don't know. I don't have any evidence, but I think at a minimum, she was involved, buried the body, knew what had happened. To Joe Scott Morgan, joining me, forensics expert.

Joe Scott, it was on her computer, the search, how to make chloroform, homemade chloroform. It was in Tot Mom's car. Cindy Anthony was at work from 7.30 in the morning on. George Anthony, a former cop, was at work from 7.30 in the morning on. George Anthony, a former cop, was at work that day. She was the one making the searches. She was the one that had the child at the very end. And it started with an explosive argument between her and her mother, Cindy, about how to raise the little girl.

As we learn, the grandparents, George and Cindy, were the ones footing the bill, working every day to support little Kelly, to raise her. They were all living in their home. They were the ones that loved and took care of the baby. And Cindy and Top Mom had a fight, a big argument about how to raise the child. Top Mom storms out. Kelly is never seen again. You know, she almost committed the perfect murder. The reason they can't find a cause of death, Nancy, is if in fact she did use homemade chloroform

on this child, which is made from household bleach, acetone, ethanol. It's very simple to make and highly, highly toxic. By the time the medical examiner was able to take a look at this child's, this little angel's body that has been decomposing over this period of time, there's no trace left. There is nothing left. It's not like she was shot. It's not like she was strangled. Wait a minute.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Joe Scott Morgan, which is rare. Yes, two-year-old Kaylee's body was skeletonized and it was found in a wooded area just 10 houses down from the Anthony home. Boy, the killer didn't go far, did they? But there was duct tape wrapped around her mouth and nose still attached to her hair in the back. Okay, that duct tape was still where it was. That child's mouth and nose had been duct taped and she was chloroformed. That is very strong evidence of homicide, Joe Scott. How are you going to prove the chloroforming? Because she looked it up on her computer.

Right, but that doesn't prove it. Excuse me, I wasn't done. And number two, in her car, in her trunk, is the heavy presence of chloroform in the hair that Cindy Anthony testified belongs to Kelly. Yeah, just like they had the heavy smell of human decomposition. The prosecution screwed this case up with too much information. You asked me what the evidence was.

I gave you the evidence of chloroform. No, let me finish now. Chloroform is naturally occurring, Nancy. It naturally occurs in fungus. She is in an area that the defense can say that that chloroform naturally appeared in the environment as she's decomposing. That's why this is almost a perfect Thomas law. Fungus, my rear end. Cheryl McCollum, crime scene investigator and director of the Cold Case Institute. Do you hear Joseph Scott Morgan? Has she lost his mind?

There's not a fungus in that trunk. Nancy, again, love Joe Scott, but I've got to disagree with him on this. I do not believe for one minute that chloroform came from anywhere other than the perpetrator. Could you explain to him why? Maybe he couldn't hear me. Maybe if I talk really slowly, he'll get it. You know, I try that with the twins and they go, mom, I heard you the first time. Why are you talking like this? So I don't think that really works. Cheryl, can you help me please? Well, again, it would be different if she hadn't had the computer searches, but there it is in black and white you're looking something up and suddenly that's what's used in

this crime there's no question they're related okay troy slayton i hear you're chomping at the bit go ahead and tell me why we're all wrong the prosecution really blew it when they brought in the computer expert nancy saying that she had searched for chloroform 84 times just to have that expert skewered when it turned out that the software that they had used was wrong. And she had only searched one time as it related to chloroform used in the 19th century. Can I ask you what difference does it make? Because Cheryl McCollum, you do one search about how to make homemade chloroform, and then there's chloroform in your trunk with your daughter's hair in your trunk, and then she turns up dead. I mean, am I missing part of this jigsaw puzzle?

No, again, those are dots that are easily connected for me. Zero doubt in my mind, whether she researched it once or 80 times it's just as bad especially when you can tie it to the dead child in your trunk and i saw cindy anthony top mom casey anthony's mother on the stand trying to explain the searches by saying oh i was looking up chlorophyll and somehow chloroform happened you know that was the dichotomy for me Robin Walensky WSB because you have one mother there willing to commit perjury and possibly become a murder suspect that would be Cindy the height of a mother's love sacrificing herself for Tot Mom and then you have Totmom, who to this day, many believe, murdered her own little girl. What a juxtaposition.

You know, the thing is, Nancy, is that when you go back to that point in time, and we were both sitting in the courtroom that day, Cindy Anthony, get into her head. She already has a dead granddaughter on that day. Her granddaughter is very much gone. And if you remember, Casey was facing the death penalty. So she didn't want to lose a second person, a loved one in her life. And so she took the hit and lied. I just want to say, though, that some of your other guests here, the other piece of evidence that is just huge in this case is that the duct tape was from inside the house and those there were two matching laundry

bags white laundry bags a pair from bed bath and beyond and little kaylee was wrapped in duct tape that was from inside the house and a laundry bag from bed bath and beyond that was from inside the house and a laundry bag from Bed Bath and Beyond that was from inside the house and a blanket that was from inside the house. So you tell me who else could have done it. You know, another issue right there to Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge Ashley, when Robin Walensky points out it's the same tape. The duct tape used to wrap around the nose and mouth of this two-year-old child was found on gas cans in the home, in the garage, even on the flyers they used to put up, Kelly is missing, help us solve the case. It came from the Anthony home. There's no doubt about it. I don't understand how that went sideways at trial with that tape. I don't either. So if I were on the bench and I heard all of these pieces

of circumstantial evidence put together to paint the picture, I as a judge would find that or would think that the jury would find that she absolutely did murder this child. I question why didn't all of this evidence come out in a pattern to show and paint a picture to the jury that this mother killed her tot. Well, not only that, Troy Slayton, defense attorney joining me out of LA, in addition for the searches for chloroform was a search on top mom's computer for neck breaking. I don't think that's going to pop up on my laptop. There are lots of different reasons why you could get to lots of different things on the computer. You know, Nancy, there were 59 witnesses that the prosecution called.

The defense called 40 some odd witnesses. And after all of that, after the jury sat there and listened for weeks on end, they found her. Not only did they have a hung jury, not only was it. Why don't you address what I ask you? Not only did some. I asked you about damning computer searches and all you can say is like a broken record.

I think that's how you win cases. It's a Stockholm syndrome. You keep saying the same old thing to the jury until they finally just go ahead and give you a verdict so they can get out of there. They found her not guilty, Nancy. Oh, you just said it again, didn't you? You just said it.

Meredith Cianciolo, let me go to a reporter on this. Another issue is at trial, Meredith. This is in your backyard. Meredith Cianciolo joining me from WFLA. Meredith, I want you front and center in front of that TV tonight for Grace versus Abrams. It's not Grace and Abrams, okay?

Because we're not on the same side. It's Grace versus Abrams for a reason. Now, back to the trial. George Anthony dragged through the mud. In opening statement, Tottenham, Casey Anthony's defense lawyer, says boldly that George Anthony molested Tottenham. They also say her brother molested her. I don't know the point of this because not one piece of evidence was brought to support that.

When they say something like that in an opening statement, you expect there to be evidence. Nothing. Nothing. Not one witness. Not anything. But back to that day, to suggest that George had something to do with it. Meredith, do you remember those jailhouse videos I played on HLN? Where George and Cindy are sitting there begging to ask, asking what happened?

And top mom goes off on them. You remember that? If George Anthony knew what happened and top mom knew what happened, that's her story. That Kelly died in the pool and George just threw her body on the side of the road. Why didn't she say, dad, tell her what happened. Tell her she wants to know what happened. Dad, tell her that didn't happen. Right. And from what I understand, George really was, um, this hit him like a ton of bricks when right before, you know, those opening statements, Jose Baez, you know, said, Hey, listen, you're just going to have to take

this when I'm about to throw out and don't react to any of this. And then he throws out this, you know, idea that George molested Casey and and he basically had to sit there and take it just to protect his daughter. But as you saw, as you mentioned, throughout the trial, there was not much said about that. Nothing said to support that. It just makes my stomach hurt. And I don't believe that was even brought up at the end of the trial. It was one of those things that was said early on, nothing to support it.

And from what I understand, there has been no evidence then and since then to indicate that that was a plausible situation within this family. If anything, it is this family decided they were going to come together and support Casey so that she didn't get the death penalty. And at the end of the day, not only did she not get a death penalty, she is free. And I don't think anyone here, not in the Tampa market, not in Orlando, anywhere in the state of Florida believes that she is not guilty of this crime. And amazingly, when questioned in the past 12 months, actually, it was last spring break, Cheryl McCollum, because I was in an RV with the children, David and my mother, who, no offense, that little 86-year-old, she weighs 90 pounds. She took up two-thirds of the RV, okay? That's a whole nother podcast.

But Cheryl, that's when it happened. The top mom is questioned. It was last March, and asked, what really happened that night? She goes, I honestly don't know. Kaylee was alive and well when I last saw her. I was told she was fine. That's not what they said at trial. They said a completely different story. That George Anthony Kaylee had died in the swimming pool.

And George fished her out. The grandfather fishes her out. That is the apple of his eye and he says, your mother's going to kill you. You're going to get in trouble for this. And he just puts the baby no CPR, nothing like that. Doesn't call 911. He just sticks her

in a trash bag and throws her body by the side of the road. Does anybody believe that? Nobody has believed anything this family has said. This is reasonable doubt by confusion. George did it. No, the mama did it. No, the worker that found her

probably did it, because nobody was found. Please do not draw Roy Cronk into this, the good Samaritan that finds the body and calls 911. That's right, though. You are right. The defense tried to blame him at trial. They tried to blame everybody. Oh, yeah.

But, you know, Cheryl McCollum, I'm thrown off. I'm thrown off. Where are you going to be tonight, Thursday, March 29, at 11 p.m.? Sugar, I'm going to be in front of my TV set watching Nate DeGrace take Dan Abrams to the wood shed. On A&E. And I got to the wood shed. On A&E. And I got to tell you something. There's a live audience, Cheryl.

I'm just so knocked out because it's like a jury. I listened at the event at the Fulton County Courthouse one time to the jury deliberations. I never did it again. They were having a huge ruckus back there. And I thought, oh, dear Lord in heaven, they're never going to reach a verdict like that. At this rate, they were arguing over the drink order. They were fighting over the drink order. So what I'm saying, the studio audience, you never know.

It's like with a jury. You never know what they're going to say. There are theories, there are questions that they come up with about this case. And guess who we have, Cheryl? This is going to mean a lot to you because you and I have hung out at a lot of jails. We have an inmate that became top mom Casey Anthony's best friend behind bars before she got out. And what top mom said and did behind bars before she got out and what top mom said and did behind bars and i swear cheryl if this woman had come on i know she would have been beat up on cross because she is an inmate but if she had come on i swear i think we'd have a different verdict cheryl i'm telling you right

now she's gonna be a money tree i cannot wait i'm telling you robin walensky joining me wsb weigh in robin you know i just think what's lost on this all these years later nancy this I'm telling you, Robin Walensky joining me, WSB. Weigh in, Robin. You know, I just think what's lost on this all these years later, Nancy, this August she would have been 13 years old. And her life as a young teen, you know, we only remember that most famous picture of her that we saw with her big eyes and her big, beautiful smile and all the little videos. But she would be almost 13. And for all those years, Top Mom has walked free, walked free.

Troy Slayton, do you really want to tell me, you're the defense attorney out of L.A., how appropriate. Do you really want to tell me that you don't think Tot Mom had anything to do with her daughter's death? I think that the proper verdict was reached. The jury did the right thing. You can't believe in the rule of law, Nancy, and not believe in what happened. That is not what I asked you, Slayton. I asked you what you thought. I think that it's possible.

I asked you what you thought. That she did it. I think that it's possible that others did it. That's like pulling a tooth. That's not how we work in our system of justice. You need to have an abiding conviction of the truth of the charge, and I do not. I'm sorry. What did you say?

I dozed off there. Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. You know I froze you out like five minutes ago, right, after you jumped up and said that chloroform came from fungi. I'm not ever forgetting that, Joe Scott, as long as I live. Well, good, because I'm just heating up right now, Nancy. You ready? Okay, what do you got for me? Yeah, let me tell you this.

Two words, junk science. The prosecutor in this case literally, literally failed this little child. Miserably. Miserably. The whole DA's office failed this child. Just because you say the same word over and over, it is not moving me. No, no, no. Okay, I got some more words for you. They paraded a group of people in front of this jury, in front of this court, over and over and over and over. You know what it's a case of? It's a case of intellectual laziness, prosecutorial

laziness. They wanted to see how much stuff they could throw against the wall. You're talking about root binding. You're going to call that real science. You're talking about root binding. You're going to call that real science. You're talking about smell test. You're going to call that real science. And what they've done, not only did they affect this little child's case going forward, they affected every case moving forward after this relative to forensic science. They cut the head off to cure the headache with this whole thing. It's a total nightmare and a sham. Now, I'm not saying that this woman didn't kill her child. What I'm saying is, what I'm saying is the prosecutors got lazy. They just decided to say, oh, well, we'll just let

science solve this thing for us. We're not going to do really any real investigation here. We're just going to let them use a bunch of big words. And they failed. I disagree with you. They investigated out the yin-yang. And Joe Scott Morgan, I appreciate that sermon you just gave me. I just want to hear an amen. Easter's coming up, and I know where I'm going to be. But Joe Scott Morgan, this is a yes-no answer.

Okay? One word. Do you believe top mom Casey Anthony killed her daughter? Yes. And that's the shame. That was one word. One word. Oh, there he goes.

Oh, I hate to cut his mic because I do kind of like him. Cheryl McCollum, I believe you're trying to interrupt Joe Scott just like I am. Yes, but you've got to hear me out. Okay, I'll try. One, I agree with him completely, but for a different reason. What they did in this case that was brilliant from the defense side, you literally left there not knowing, was this a murder? Did she die accidentally and then was disposed illegally?

Or did somebody else do it and we don't know? The problem is they charged her incorrectly. If they had charged her with illegally disposing of a body, she'd be in prison right now. But there's no proof that baby was murdered. It could have literally been an accident by something she did illegal. So that jury was almost left with no choice. Wait, wait, wait. Let me understand what you're saying, Cheryl.

Under your hypothesis, what accident is that? Because you sound an awful lot like Belvin Perry, who's joining me tonight on A&E, the judge. Well, again, she could have OD'd on something. She could have used the chloroform to make her go to sleep. She could have dropped her. There's a lot of things she could have done. We don't know. She wasn wasn't shot she wasn't stabbed well i can tell you this i i don't know what planet you guys came from ashley wilcott you look up how do you make homemade chloroform on your computer you have chloroform in your trunk along with your daughter's hair. Your daughter's missing 30 days.

I've told you what happened when I lost John David when he snuck away in a store. I went berserk. We had a whole lockdown and babies are us. But she went 30 days. That night, she was over at her boyfriend's house, out at Blockbuster getting movies. Kelly was nowhere to be seen. She was gone already. That night, she was dead. For the next 30 days, she carried on like a she-witch from the SS, partying like mad in a push-up bra and a go-go skirt out at a hot body contest at a bar up on the stripper pole while her daughter was, quote, missing, never called police, never told her

family, never told her boyfriend, nothing. That together tells me that the duct tape on this child's mouth and nose wrapped around her hair still intact when they found the body was no accident ashley i agree but here's why i'm perplexed is there a suggestion by someone that chloroforming a child to get them to be quiet or pass out or not, you know, be as active, it can result in accidental death? No, there's no accident about it. If this child was chloroformed, then the child was murdered. That's what I'm arguing to Belvin Perry tonight. He has the same theory that Cheryl McCollum has, and I think Joe Scott Morgan has, that there was an accident and she died. That's called felony murder. You chloroform a child or OD them on

Benadryl and they die? That's a death resulting from a felony. Felony child abuse. That is death penalty material. Meredith Cianciolo, WFLA, where is Tot Mom now? So she is actually living in northern Florida. She is living with a private investigator that is associated with her former defense attorney, Jose Baez. By all accounts, she is working with that private investigator to do computer history searches, ironically, to gather background information on folks who have been accused of crimes. that people leave behind because she felt like we were only seeing the negative online history from her case. So she is trying to work with investigators to find the positive aspects of people who are charged with the crime. So that's what she's doing. She's hanging out there doing computer searches, taking photography, and by all accounts, laying low. But it seems like she's leading a pretty decent life by all accounts.

But, you know, she really can't go out and have a public interaction with people because she is notorious. Well, every time I see a photo of her, she's out at a bar drinking. So, I mean, that's pretty public to me. To Robin Walensky, WSB, you heard what Meredith Censulo has to say. You know what? We forgot all about the tattoo, Robin. It is all about the tattoo. And, you know, the book I wrote about the trial is called Beautiful Life? And two weeks after the death of your daughter, you go out and get a tattoo on your left shoulder that says Bella Vita, which in Italian means beautiful life. Are you serious? You know, it's almost too much to take in. Take a listen to this.

The verdict. As to the charge of first-degree murder, verdict as to count one, 1, we the jury find the defendant not guilty, so say we all, dated at Orlando, Orange County, Florida, on this fifth day of July 2011, signed for person. As to the Charge of Aggravated Child Abuse, Verdict as to Count 2, we the jury find the defendant not guilty, so say we all,ated at Orlando, Orange County, Florida. This fifth day of July 2011, signed for person. As to the charge of aggravated manslaughter of a child, verdict is to count three. We the jury find the defendant not guilty. So say we all. Dated at Orlando, Orange County, Florida. This fifth day of July 2011,

signed for person. As to the charge of providing false information to law Orange County, Florida, this 5th day of July, 2011, signed four-person. As to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer, verdict as to count four. We, the jury, find the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer as charged in the indictment. So say we all, dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July, 2011, signed for person. As to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer, verdict is to count five. We, the jury, find the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer as charged in the indictment. So say we all dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this 5th day of July, 2011, signed full person. As to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer, verdict is to count six.

We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty. I'm sorry. We, the jury, find the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer is charged in the indictment. So say we all, dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July 2011, signed for person. As to the charge of providing false information to a law enforcement officer, verdict is to count seven. We the jury find the defendant guilty of providing false information to a law enforcement officer is charged in the indictment. So say we all dated Orlando, Orange County, Florida, this fifth day of July, 2011, signed for person. Tonight, join me on Grace versus Abrams. A&E, 11 p.m. Set your DVRs. Tell me what you think. Tonight, evidence and witnesses that were not heard by the jury.

But if they had been, I believe there would have been a different verdict. How many times have I gone up and down the aisles at Walmart? Well, the last thing I expect to see is a man brandishing a machete trying to steal my children in a Walmart. But apparently that is exactly what happened. Special guest joining me right now, Lieutenant Brian McGregor from the Kenner, Louisiana Police Department. Robin Walensky, before I go to the lieutenant, what happened? Well, this guy comes into the Walmart in Kenner, Louisiana Police Department. Robin Walensky, before I go to the lieutenant, what happened? Well, this guy comes into the Walmart in Kenner. I actually used to live in New Orleans, Nancy, and have been to this Walmart.

It's your standard Walmart, not that far from the airport. And this guy comes in and he has a backpack. And in it, little do we know that he has a machete and pepper spray. And he comes up to a lady who's got her toddler in the cart and he tries to snatch this kid. And then suddenly when she starts screaming, he pulls the machete out and all on these Walmart staff, people, employees that come to help. And then the next thing, you know, he's running to the exit and tries to snatch an infant who's strapped in the car seat, but can't get to that kid either because he's strapped in.

It's more than I can take in. Lieutenant Brian McGregor with me. This guy, Billy Yeobudie Herrera, accused of trying to kidnap two children at Walmart while moms are in there with their children. Not one, but two children. And then we find out the guy is armed to the teeth with a machete, a homemade shiv or a shank, and pepper spray. Correct. What happened, Lieutenant? Basically what happened was on Friday about 2 p.m., the suspect, he entered a Walmart through the garden center.

He proceeded to the deli section of the store. Once he arrived in the deli section of the store, you see a young mother with her child inside the grocery cart. He engaged that mother, began, you can see there's some type of altercation between the mother and that suspect. Some of the other customers just thought it was a domestic incident inside the store, so they didn't become involved at first until that mother began asking for help, at which time an asset protection employee that was right by the door saw what was going on,

saw that he tried to grab the child from the grocery cart. The mother grabbed her child, immediately took cover with her child, and began fighting with him, at which time the asset protection employee wound up engaging him. Once he engaged him, the suspect ran back into the meat poultry section of the store. Employees followed. At that time, he drew a machete, started swinging it at the employees. At that time, they created distance. As they created distance, he ran back towards the front of the store to the deli section

where another young mother was coming through with her small infant child, and that child was strapped into the seat at the top, and he tried to grab that child. And again, you saw another mother fighting for her child as well. They had an officer that was inside the store as well, a police officer, and then the suspect gets hit from behind, pushes him forward away from that mom, and the altercation continues until he gets to the front door and they put him down on the ground. Now, when he approached the first female, you know, mother inside the store for the first attempt, you could actually see him patting his right side, you know, that he has a weapon on his right side.

So that made every indication that he was armed at that time. Louisiana police say a stranger with a machete tries to snatch children from their mothers inside a Walmart and you know the moms fought to the finish. Not only that Walmart employees jump in to try to do their best, but it was when the police show up. An off-duty police officer gets into the fray, and I got to tell you something. Out to you, Cheryl McCollum, I hear bad things about cops every day of the week, no matter what I'm talking about or where I am. Open season on police.

And you know what? I get it. I know there are some cops that have done horrible things. I know that. But here you've got an off-duty cop taking on a guy with a machete, a homemade shank, and pepper spray. What about that, Cheryl? They're heroes, Nancy.

You and I know that. There's a couple of bad apples, but there are bad teachers and preachers too. So you weed those folks out. But this guy came to do a lot of damage. He was prepared to disable people with pepper spray and then harm them greatly with that machete. Not just one child, but two. But I would also recommend they look at his computer searches. That's going to lead to his reason for doing it right there. Yeah, that's a question in my mind. With me, special guest from Kenner, Louisiana, Lieutenant Brian McGregor on the police department there.

Lieutenant McGregor, any known motive? No. Initially, when the suspect was taken into custody, he refused to identify himself. He failed to cooperate with us once we got him here to the police department. In addition to that, we know he's had an ICE detainer put on him at the time of his arrest as well. ICE? He's an illegal immigrant as well? Well, it has indications that he is. I mean, what happens is we as a police department, we cooperate with ICE. And once we run an individual through the National Crime Information Computer System, which is

NCIC, you know, ICE will determine at that time if they're going to place a detainer on a suspect, and they actually put a detainer on this suspect here. We also know that the suspect may possibly have some mental disorders, but we're unsure of that at this time. Well, good. He can get treatment in jail. Can you even imagine this? The one mom, one of the two mothers,

grabs her child as he is trying to attack them with a machete, grabs her child and runs and hides behind the counter in the deli department, and the Walmart employees risk their lives to intervene and save the mom and a child. I mean, Cheryl McCollum, can you even imagine being crouched down behind the deli department at Walmart holding your child? I'm sure screaming their head off. No, but let me tell you something. That's the very person that's going to, without question, give their life up. So when it comes to a fight, that mama didn't hesitate.

You know that, Nancy. Right now, Cheryl, police are asking anybody that has cell phone video to please contact police. Lieutenant Brian McGregor, if someone has a cell phone video, and I know that they do, what number should they dial? They can just call me directly at 504-712-2252. We know that there was individuals inside the store that videoed the incident that didn't become involved, but we would like to have that video in addition to what we already have.

Okay, hold on. 504 what? 712-2252. 504-712-2252. So we don't have any idea about what his motivation was, Lieutenant? No, we don't. We know when he entered the store, he had a duffel bag. I mean, the duffel bag was actually large enough to put a child into, so we don't know if that was his intent at that time.

But, you know, we have a lot of them. Where do you think he's from, Lieutenant? It shows indications from Florida, but, you know, he's also from out of the country. You know, he did have a Social Security number, but, you know, it might just be a work Social Security number only. So that part is under investigation by ICE. You know, we're dealing with what happened here locally and through our district attorney's office and the criminal charges that we filed against him here. Okay, everybody, put on your seatbelt. Troy Slayton, defense attorney joining us out of LA. Go ahead and hit me, Troy. I think

that the officer stated the defense for us. This is a man who had mental illness. He was suffering from mental disease or defect to be pulling out a machete in a Walmart. That's not something that a normal person tries to do. He didn't try and steal any of the products. He didn't know what he was doing. He may have been hepped up on drugs, although I agree that's not a defense. Voluntary intoxication is not a defense. But if he was so mentally disturbed that he wasn't able to tell right from wrong then that is a defense well he knew enough to lie about who he was and under your theory troy slayton everybody that commits crime would be mentally ill with a mental illness defense because what as you say normal, not mine, person would commit a murder or

rape or child molestation. Nobody said normalcy is a litmus test. Insanity is when you don't know right from wrong at the time of the incident. And correct me if I'm wrong, but Lieutenant Brian McGregor, he fought with these people to get these children. He knew what he was doing was wrong. Just because you're fighting and your body is engaging in the fight or flight reflex doesn't mean that you have the wherewithal to be able to tell right from wrong. Are you Lieutenant Brian McGregor? Because it sounds like it's Troy Slayton, the defense attorney out of L.A. Lieutenant Brian McGregor, I'm going to it's Troy Slayton, the defense attorney out of L.A.

Lieutenant Brian McGregor, I'm going to apologize for Slayton. Thank you. Because he obviously does not know enough to apologize for himself. Lieutenant, the guy was, let me see your note, Jackie. Oh, she says he was together enough to make homemade weapons. Okay. Also, he fought when he was going to get caught, and then he knew enough not to tell his true name because he knows he's in trouble. That doesn't sound crazy to me. It's crazy like a fox, Lieutenant.

Correct. I mean, there's all indications to us that he knows what he was doing at the time the incident occurred. He went up there and gave the first mother specific instructions that she was going to listen or she would die. You know, he also threatened a child and so forth. And I don't believe the mental health defense on this at all. I mean, there's no doubt from what we see on video, and he was clearly aware of his surroundings, what he was doing in those surroundings, when he drew the machete on the victims and so forth and when he was trying to grab these children.

So I don't believe this. You're right. You brought up a really good point, Lieutenant McGregor. This is 2 p.m broad daylight this guy billy obudier herrera goes up to a woman and her taut son who is sitting in the grocery cart tells her she's going to die if she doesn't do what he says the woman tried to walk away but he blocked path, gripped the handle of his machete, and told the woman that if she did not listen to him, her two-year-old would also die. Well, you know what the mom did. She grabbed her son. He grabbed the son, tried to pull him out of the cart.

The woman grabbed her son. It was a tug of war with the boy. She gets him. She's fighting with Boudier Herrera. She wrestles her two-year-old boy away from him and runs to the deli department and hides in the floor of the Walmart. Oh, he doesn't stop then, Joseph Scott Morgan. He still wants that boy, but he tries to get another tot as well. Possible motive, Joe Scott. Yeah, I think he tries to get another tot as well. Possible motive, Joe Scott. Yeah, I think he went in with specific intent, Nancy. Why didn't he go into an open field and swing his machete around?

Because there's no people there. He went into a place of business, like you said, in the middle of the day, looking to force someone, to leverage someone, even with a small child, Nancy, threatening to take that child's life if they didn't comply. What I'm amazed by here is that the police officer that was off duty and also those Walmart employees did something that the police try to do all the time, and that is de-escalate the situation. And this is a tough environment to do it in. You're talking, everybody knows the size of a Walmart. These places are vast. This guy scampered away to one area and then another area, and they finally were able to tackle him and subdue him. He went in there to do great harm to somebody. This is your old Walmart.

You know exactly where the deli department is, Joe Scott. Yeah, yeah. I'm from Jefferson Parish originally. Started my career down there as a death investigator with a coroner's office. So, yeah, I'm very familiar with this area. This is a high traffic area. You've got people in and out of there. And you know, look, people just go about their daily lives conducting their business. Who's going to walk into a place and just expect that some person like this is going to walk up and say, look, I'm going to kill you if you don't do specifically what I say. How horrific is this? You know, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute Crime Scene Investigator.

Cheryl, everybody is dancing around my question, motivation. First of all, I can tell you, it's not any, nothing good. There's no good motivation here. Number one, I'm wondering if he was not going to try to sell the children to get the money, molest them. I mean, those are the top two things I could think of, Cheryl. Those are the top two. The only reason people take young children like that is to ransom them, which this doesn't appear to be the case, to sexually harm them and then kill them or raise them as their own, which that doesn't seem the case.

So nothing good was going to come. And this person was uber determined to take a child because when the first one failed, he went to the second one. And I'm going to say again, even if there's mental illness, he has not tried to hide his motivation. If you can find a cell phone or a computer, it will be there and it will be very clear. With our special guest, Lieutenant Brian McGregor, weighing in as we wait for justice to unfold. Guys, please join me tonight on A&E. March 29, Thursday, 11 p.m. Eastern, Grace vs. Abrams. I'm so blessed to have landed at A&E, and I want to thank you for joining me tonight. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off.

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