Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Tot mom Casey Anthony launches legal battle after she’s acquitted in tot-daughters murder

Episode Date: December 11, 2017

Casey Anthony is still fighting a lawsuit related to the death of her daughter almost a decade ago. Tot Mom wants a court to toss a defamation lawsuit filed by the meter reader who found Florida toddler Caylee Anthony's remains in a swampy area near Anthony's home. Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall and RadarOnline.com reporter Alexis Tereszcuk join Nancy Grace in this Crime Stories episode to discuss the latest in the Casey Anthony case. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Casey Anthony's parents are threatening to take legal action against their daughter. I don't think it'll ever come to that. I don't think she'll sell her story. There are rumors of reality shows, even a show with her and OJ Simpson. Oh, God. Cindy Anthony also telling TV host Chris Hansen that Casey might not remember what

happened to her daughter Kaylee because she might have blacked out during a seizure. Yes, I think Casey is mentally ill. It never ends, does it? A three-year-old little girl was found double-bagged with trash bags like she's trash and thrown, her dead body, thrown into a swampy area. And then the person accused of the crime put her head on her pillow every night from months on end, just 10 houses down

from where her baby girl's body lay decomposing. Of course, I'm talking about Tot Mom, Casey Anthony. And of course, it ain't over yet. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Now, Tot Mom, Casey Anthony hits the headlines again in the last hours, demanding that a lawsuit be thrown out. A lawsuit accusing her of lying. Oh, which lie could it be? Alexis Tereshchuk, I'm not really sure which lie she's talking about. The one where she says she didn't murder her baby.

That one. didn't murder her baby that one or or throw little kelly uh double bagged into a swampy area i mean how many times did she drive by that each day did she even bother to glance over there while her child was decomposing she was out partying hardy on stripper poles at hot body contests, slung up with her boyfriend who never saw Kelly as the weeks passed by. Then made up an imaginary babysitter, Zenaida Gonzalez. Guess what? There turned out to be a real Zenaida Gonzalez. It ruined her life. She had never even met Kelly or top mom Casey Anthony.

I mean, the wake of pain this woman has left behind, including her own parents, is just unimaginable. But right now, Alexis Tereszczuk, RadarOnline.com investigative reporter. What is which specific lie is Top Mom claiming to be false? She says that Roy Crunk's lawsuit against her for defamation is not true. He says that it was because Casey and her legal team lied about him, saying that he was perhaps a suspect. You know what? You know what, Alexis?

No good deed goes unpunished. Dr. Bethany with me. Dr. Bethany Marshall, high profile LA psychoanalyst. Isn't that the truth? No good deed goes unpunished. My husband and I text that to each other all day long because no matter what we try to do, somehow it always backfires. Dr. Bethany, do you remember Roy Kronk? I do, like it was yesterday. Yes, I remember. Poor Kronk, the meter reader of all people. He's the one who found Kaylee. Oh, and what was so crazy, Dr. Bethany, remember, he saw something. He's out reading meters. Remember, this is in Orlando, Florida, a fairly nice subdivision where Tottenham's parents, oh my stars, those poor people, what they

have lived through. That's where they lived, and she lived with them, freeloading, laying on the sofa eating chips all day. So that's where they live, and he's out there doing his job, as Dr. Bethany has just told us, and he sees something unusual. He calls police then. Then a couple of weeks pass. He keeps going back on, well, it's still there, and he keeps calling unusual. He calls police then. Then a couple of weeks pass. He keeps going back on, well, it's still there. And he keeps calling back. And I believe one time there was a snake out in there, as I recall. That is true. Well, anyway, yeah, as it goes,

he finally stays there until they come one day, finally show up. Take a listen to this 911 call. There was something round and white underneath of it, and I don't know what it is, but it just didn't look like something that should be there. There's a swamp area that I saw something that I called in a tip the other day, and they said they would dispatch an officer out to me when I got there. And I'm here. What you were just listening to is the meter reader, Roy Kronk, calling cops yet again. And when they get there, Alexis Tereszczuk, RadarOnline.com, what happens? They find little Kaylee's body, double-wrapped in a trash bag, rotting, decomposing,

because she's been left out in the hot Florida elements after being murdered for months on end, not even 10 houses away from the home where she lived with her loving, loving grandparents and where Casey lived because she had nothing else to do. Hey, let me tell you something about the loving grandparents. We only saw the worst of them during this trial. I mean, imagine it. I don't know if I told you, Dr. Bethany. Oh, I did. I did. Alan, Jackie, you know this. Alexis, I'm not sure you do. But right now, my nephew, who was like a son to me when he was growing up, he and his wife are building a house. And he and his wife and their new baby and their cat and their dog have moved in with us.

And we also have, of course, me, my husband, my two children, my mother, a cat, a dog, and Lucy's two new guinea pigs, Abby and Chloe. So this house is a rocking people. But when you're talking about the loving grandparents, they, my little nephew, Sam, have brought their baby here Alex and can I tell you how much I look forward to seeing that little guy in the morning I mean he leaves to go to play school like 6 30 in the morning I just love that little guy can you imagine Dr. Bethany George and Cindy they have this freeloading daughter okay they're probably turning a blind eye to it. Then she has this baby.

She's never revealed the dad. And the baby comes into their world. It's Kaylee. And that little girl, those big brown eyes. Oh, my stars. How much do you think they love that child, Bethany? Nancy, they love little Kaylee so much. And you know, one of the most tragic parts

of this story, I remember this so clearly. Cindy and George were taking primary responsibility for taking care of Kaylee. They loved her. That's a nice way to put it. They're footing the bill and doing all the babysitting and all the diapy changes and the poopy pants, the works. Everything. And then Cindy grows concerned that Casey is not taking care of the little girl. Which she was not. So Cindy and George go to therapy. Excuse me, Bethany. Can you talk regular people talk?

Take care of the baby. How can she take care of the baby when she's got one leg wrapped around a stripper bowl at a bar but do you remember cindy and george went to therapy and the therapist encouraged cindy to place pressure on casey to take care of kaylee and it's after that the kaylee goes missing so oh i forgot that remember that piece she probably blames herself. Right, right. Well, let me tell you, I started this whole thing, Dr. Bethany was saying, we always saw the worst of George and Cindy. And I got off track, of course. Do you remember Alexis Tereschuk, the clip of George Anthony yelling at the media out in his front yard?

Okay, first of all all and he was chewing him near your end listen his daughter's charged suspected of murder the light of his life I mean I love my husband you know that Alexis but my children and that baby Alex that's living with us now, that's my whole world. I love those three. And all of a sudden, to just have Kelly gone. And then every morning, you'll walk out the door and there's the media camped out. Just on the edge of your grass. They're not putting one toe on it, but they're right there at the edge trying to get a picture of you or video of you every morning when you're going through all this.

You can't even get out of your home. I guess he did yell at everybody, right? He did. He did. The thing that I found to me that was the scariest part of the whole time was when you broke the news that George Anthony tried to commit suicide. I was watching your show that night. I almost hated to say it. It's giving me chills on my legs right now.

Well, as I was standing there, you broke in with your news live that George Anthony had been taken to the hospital because he tried to commit suicide. He was so devastated over his daughter's child, the little girl who lived with him, and all the pressure surrounding this case and all the news that had been broken that he'd been talking to another woman instead of Cindy, and that he tried to kill himself because the pressure of it was too much, while his daughter was eating chips and having a great time. Jill Axson. Yeah, I remember that. And can you imagine, Dr. Bethany? I mean, Alexis and I are just, you know, the regular people.

You're the shrink. Can you imagine? So the light of your life goes missing, this baby. And then suddenly the focus is on you. Did you have anything to do with it? And everybody starts sifting through your life you know I think of the worst thing I've ever done let me make that plural the worst things I've ever done because there's plenty of them and to suddenly have the worst thing you've ever done splashed

on the front page of the Orlando Sentinel and then of course that's an awesome paper then it's picked up all over the world and it's on I, it lives forever on the internet, everything you've ever done, every ticket, every lawsuit, every job you've ever been fired from every person you've ever flirted with, it's all there. And then your spouse knows everything you've ever done, every secret you've ever kept there it is and remember nancy one of the secrets is that he had had a young woman um with whom he had had some kind of a relationship i'm not sure what the relationship was anymore but that was exposed in in trial his own daughter accuses george of molesting her so he has that trauma you know what

i'm gonna have to get my handkerchief I'm gonna have to get my handkerchief. I'm gonna have to get my handkerchief out of my pocket. Because just thinking about what these parents have lived through. I mean, you know, on top of losing Kelly, but back back to the lawsuit, Alan Duke, why did you get us so off track? I mean, it never ends with you. Back to the lawsuit. Okay, it's Roy Cronk, the poor meter reader, who's minding his own business, trying to do the right thing. He sued top mom Casey Anthony for defamation, claiming she sicked her lawyers on him to smear his name publicly

and suggest he tampered with the body. They also insinuated he, Kronk, may have done all this to snag a reward. In other words, you know, tamper with the body to get the money. And I guarantee you, suggest at trial that he was the one that killed Kelly. That's where it was headed. Cronk says Attorney Jose Baez, that's Top Mom's lawyer, called him a, quote, this is an opening statement to the jury. I was there.

Alexis, did you come to the trial? I can't remember anymore. So many people were there. I remember I was sitting up at that point in the balcony, I think. And because I wanted to be able to get in and out without causing any commotion. You know, like in church, when you start rustling down the aisle and sitting on all the old ladies, it causes a big commotion. So I was sitting up trying to go unseen and unheard in the balcony and jose baez tells the jury that this meter reader is a quote morally bankrupt individual who actually took kelly's body and hid her i guess he did sue for defamation. I mean, Alexis Tereschuk, do you recall him blaming Kronk?

I do. It was the wildest opening statements from an attorney that anybody had probably ever seen in a while. He said so many things during those opening statements that he never even touched upon or proved or said again during the trial. But that was what he said about Roy Cunk, the man who found this little girl who spent months agonizing over it. He had called the police originally and they didn't even follow up on his tip. He went back a couple months later, still saw Kaylee's body. This time there was a skull. And finally the police came out. They were spending all their time with Casey where she lied about saying she worked at Universal Studios. The cops actually, she took them finally the police came out they were spending all their time with casey where she was you know she lied about saying she worked universal studios the cops actually she took them physically to

universal studios was walking around a building and finally turned to them and said oh well you know what just kidding i don't really work here i mean every lie possible they were tracking down with casey trying to find out what happened what is is that? Is that an ailment to Dr. Bethany Marshall? Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us from L.A., a high-profile psychoanalyst. And when you get, I mean, it took to the very last moment for Top Mom to admit she didn't work at Universal. And we go to Disney whenever we can afford it.

But we then go over to Universal. I really didn't know that much about it. But now we love it over there because of Harry Potter Land. It's huge. It's humongous. So she tells police, and she's been telling her parents forever that she works there. She's got these fake IDs and I guess a little uniform. And so she was trying to tell the police all about her work scenario where she had been working and how she met the babysitter.

And she lied all the way in the police car, all the way to Universal. They get to the security gate. The security guards go, we don't have any record of you being here. She goes, oh, oh, well, this is my extension. They call the extension. She's sitting in the car with the cops, Dr. Bethany. She sticks to her story. And she starts naming names. And they call the people. And they finally get in, as I recall.

They get through security. They get all the way in there. And finally, I guess when nobody recognizes her, she goes, okay, you got me like it's a joke. I don't work here. I mean, what is that type of a liar that will take you all the way when they're totally, their back is literally against the wall. There's nowhere else to turn. Then they go, okay, I was lying. Nancy, that. Okay. Before I answer the question, I remember the I remember when you broke this story. And you covered the story night after night. And if you had not covered the story repeatedly, we would not know about it now.

I remember the very first article I ever read about Casey Anthony, where they talked about the police interview and that she said she worked at Universal. She got in the police car. She rode there. She kept the lie up until the very last minute. I was so shocked when I read that article. I remember reading it three or four times in preparation for the show that night because I couldn't believe what I was reading. And now we know that Casey Anthony is a pathological liar. I think she's the sort of liar who actually is so in the moment with her lies that she believes them. I mean, to the point of delusional.

Will you please quit saying that? You know, she knew she did not work at Universal. No, no, she, but, but she has the capacity to believe that she can persuade other people. And there's no sense of consequences. I mean, I guess one of the things I can say is that certain personality disorders cluster together, narcissistic, antisocial, and borderline. And what all these personality disorders have in common is something I frequently talk about, which is reckless disregard and lack of concern for the right and safety of others, impulsivity, failure to plan ahead, reactivity, clinging and rejecting behavior. They just either idealize and cling to people or they withdraw at the first sign of rejection. And that in that matrix of personality characteristics, they're not thinking about anybody else but themselves. I mean, I think that she thought she could control the police.

I think that's what's so amazing. Well, maybe she was so used to controlling and lying to everybody else for years. And, you know, it was just a second nature to her. And suddenly it wasn't working. Hold on, guys. I've got some more sound. I've got to play for you from Roy Cronk. But first, I want to thank our partner who's making today's program

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who is the source of this lawsuit Top Mom's trying to get thrown out, said to my friend Robin Roberts over at ABC's GMA. Take a listen to what Cronk tells Robin. You make this discovery. You call 911. Yes. And what was the response? Well, I called that night about 9, 30, 10 o'clock,

and they said okay. And then nothing happened. No one called me back. I called them again the next night about 9, 30, 10 o'clock. They told me to call a crime line. I didn't want to call a crime line. I didn't want to call a crime line. I just wanted to stay as anonymous as possible. And so I called a crime line, and they said they'd have an officer meet me out there.

So the next day when I got off work, I drove over there. I called. The officer showed up. He just pulled his experimental metal baton out and went down to the water's edge. I pointed in the area. What was that? He just swept his head back and forth and went down to the water's edge. I pointed in the area. What was that? He just swept his head back and forth and said, I don't see anything. Pretty much that was it.

That was in August. Yes, ma'am. December, you go back to the same area. Why did you go back? I had to go to the bathroom. I went in there and I looked over and I saw a shape that didn't look quite right to me. When I pulled the bag up, I basically looked down and there it was. Did you know it was the same area where you had found? Roughly, yeah.

Except there was no water there this time because it all dried up. And you called authorities again? Yes, ma'am. And this time they did find? Yes, ma'am. The remains. And then as a matter of fact, Alexis and Dr. Bethany, he actually steals my quote. Actually, maybe I took, maybe I stole it from him. Listen. There's so much speculation about,

about your, your possible involvement. And as a, as a private citizen that came forward and helped so much in this case, how do you, How do you feel about all that? No good deed goes unpunished. I mean, all the speculation that there was like tips and all, nobody tipped me off. I figured this out by myself. And I just have chose not to say anything back until today. Well, let's set the record straight today. Did you have any contact with anyone in the Anthony family before finding her?

I've never even met those people, now. Did you have anything to do with the disappearance of Kaylee Anthony or anything like that? No, of course not. Would you still do it all over again? They've been really hard on me and you try to do the right thing, you try to be a nice guy and you just get vilified and to where people, I mean the sad thing is people actually believe some of the things that are being said and i have nothing to do with this at all but you know you listen to some of these conspiracy theories and you know i've done everything known to mankind and i haven't done anything i just tried to help put a little closure to that poor child and you know she got

a decent burial and all this that's all i tried to do. So the current lawsuit, Alexis, is where top mom Casey Anthony is now saying to the court, throw out Cronk's defamation suit against me. It's baseless. Exactly. She says there's no proof at all that I directed my legal team, who I spent every single day with for years on end and told them all my stories. There's no proof that I told them to lie about Kronk, to say things about him that may or may not have been true. She says, once again, it's not her fault. She sat there shaking her head up and down the whole time. You know, it's going to be a shame if they throw this lawsuit out.

You know, Dr. Bethany, I know they didn't teach you this when you were getting your doctorate degree, but you might want to use this. It might help help you and some of your patients when you don't know a horse. Look at their track record. All right, Dr. Bethany, I'm sure there's some fancy way that you like to say that. But it's so true. Isn't it true, Alan? And I believe you've got the sound that George Anthony says the defense team told him he had to, quote, fall on his sword and take the stand and lie about his alleged involvement in Kelly's death. He did not have anything to do with it, by the way. They wanted him to lie, according to him, in front of the jury, under oath, with your hand on the Bible. Isn't that right, Alan? Yes, Nancy. Let's listen to that interview. Okay, listen.

So we know we're going to pin it on you because you need to fall on the sword for your daughter. You need to do this. I said, wait, wait, wait, wait. The defense attorney said to you, you need to fall on the sword. I need to fall on the sword for my daughter. I need to do this. I said, I don't follow. Wait, wait, wait. The defense attorney said to you, you need to fall on the sword. I need to fall on the sword for my daughter. In what way? I need to take responsibility and claim that. What responsibility? The reason why Kaylee wasn't here with us anymore. The reason why she's gone.

Do you think, looking back, she was mentally ill? Yes, I think Casey is mentally ill. I really do. I think Casey's mentally ill. She's never had her seizures worked up. You think Casey had a seizure, potentially, and didn't even know what happened to Kaylee? That's a possibility.

And she doesn't remember when she has seizures unless she knows she's bit her tongue or something. Would you support a lawsuit against your daughter? I don't think it'll ever come to that. I don't think she'll sell her story george seems to think that it might and now there are rumors of reality shows even a show with her and oj simpson oh god what do you say to that if it came down to that i probably would she's talking about kaylee still being with her a part of her life and perhaps having another child.

I don't know where she would have another child with. It wouldn't be anywhere in this United States of America. Who knows, maybe some other country would accept her. She's had boyfriends since she's gotten out. Tell me about the suicide attempt. From the time that Kaylee, we were told that Kaylee was missing, taken, with Zannie. Whatever. Whomever she was with.

I didn't feel I did enough to go find her. Did you want to die? I enough to go find her. Did you want to die? I wanted to be with her. I want, even to this day, she should be here, not me. I've seen Kaylee on a couple of occasions. Is this an apparition? Oh, no, I've seen her. I've seen her in the flesh. I've seen her in my house.

One time she woke me up in the morning just tapping on with her little finger like she used to do. Was this a dream? JoJo, wake up. Pardon me? Was this a dream? Oh, it wasn't a dream. It was like you and I are talking right now. How do you explain that? The strong spirit that's in our house. Was it your imagination?

Oh, that's not an imagination. That's love and that's a connection that I wish more people could have. Is she a killer? Do you think she intentionally wanted to kill Kaylee? If Casey is watching this, what is your message to her? Stay away. Stay away from me. If she wants her relationship again with her mom she's got a lot of explaining to do but i don't i don't want to hear it no more from her i don't want to say her

cindy if casey is watching this what do you say to her casey be true to yourself start being honest with yourself and own everything Quit putting blame on everybody else. Alexis, isn't it true that after George, whom I have met, him and his wife, Cindy, and they were genuine and kind and polite and gracious, everything you didn't see in the trial, under all that, in that pressure cooker i and i believe that's their true nature i think this whole thing has devastated them i don't think they give a fig about anything else anymore um isn't it true alexis teres chuck

raideronline.com that then when george wouldn't go along with the lies the defense was perpetrating, that he was responsible for Kelly's death, they then accuse him, George Anthony, former cop, of molesting Top Mom. I mean, how low can you go to claim something like that on your own dad, Alexis? A hundred percent. They did. Jose Baez said that Casey had to leave for school every day after being molested by her dad. And she had to smile and hide the fact that just hours before, and this is what Jose Baez

said during the trial. He said that she left the house after she had had her dad's penis in her mouth. You know, Dr. Bethany, I miss my dad so much. You know, he's been gone now two years. I think about him every single day. If I could just have him back for one hour, I just, I don't think I would even say anything. Because there are no words that could describe how I feel about him. And the thought that you could claim this publicly on your dad to save your own skin is just awful. And Nancy, not only did she say it about her father, she said it about her brother, Lee. Do you remember that? She would claim that Lee would come into the bed at night and pull her bra off or fondle her under the bra, something like that. So the lies about her father and her

brother were pretty extensive. And I keep going back to this clustering of personality disorders, the borderline narcissistic antisocial, and what is at the core of those personality disorders is a failure to attach. At the very bottom, that's what it is. She cannot empathically attach to anybody. She wasn't attached to her mother. She was not attached to her father. She wasn't even attached to her own child. In fact, most parents, most mothers who commit infanticide do have borderline personality disorder. That's the predominant driving motivation. And then you add on top of that, not only the lies about her her parents but then she's lying about her parents and then she's clinging to her boyfriends you know um she steals amy hazinga's um checkbook

do you remember that after kaylee goes missing yes and while her daughter is allegedly missing uses amy hazinga's checkbook right forges her name on there. And she's caught on video buying like an 18 pack of beer and a bunch of push-up bras and lingerie while the daughter is missing. And then moves in with the boyfriend. And then she's kind of living the high life in her own little small little way, you know, where she's just taking up with this new boyfriend. So you have the failure to attach to her own parents and her own child. She's lying about them, throwing her father and brother under the bus. And then she's idealizing the boyfriend and trying to build a life with him.

And this is what you see with these personality disorders is this idealization and devaluation, the devaluation and hatred towards her own family. And then the clinging to and the idealization, the devaluation and hatred towards her own family, and then the clinging to and the idealization of the new boyfriend. And this is one of the reasons I think that she killed Kaylee is that there was this long for idealized life with the new boyfriend and little Kaylee was in the way. I was looking over claims made by their private eye, Dominic Casey. Their private eye, and you reported on this, Alexis, in RadarOnline.com,

claims in bankruptcy papers that there was a lot of misconduct going on between the defense lawyer, Jose Baez, and top mom, Casey Anthony. Baez has denied this, but in an affidavit, a sworn statement, the PI claims that he witnessed a naked Totmom running from Baez's private law chambers one weekend when he went in. He says that he then, he, Dominic Casey, tells Totmom she cannot continue engaging in this behavior. And that Totmom responded she had to do what the defense lawyer said because she had no money for her defense. Now, let me tell you something.

Number one, the state would pay for her defense if she did not have a lawyer. Pay for a fleet of defense attorneys. She wanted to stay with Baez. That was her decision. Now, of course, Baez has claimed that this is not true. He has denied it vigorously. So I'm less concerned with top mom Casey Anthony running naked around a law office, if it is true or not.

I'm more concerned about something else, the private investigator. And this is the PI for the defense of Top Mom, working with the defense every day. Alexis Tereszczuk, RadarOnline.com. Do you recall what the private eye says the lawyer told him? Jose Baez told Dominic Casey, who I've spoken with countless times over the years and who has always been a straight shooter with me. He said, you better get out there and find that body because the police are about to find it. Obviously saying, as Dominic's implying, that Casey knew exactly where

she had put her little daughter's dead body. So not only is top mom Casey Anthony demanding the judge throw out this lawsuit, her legal woes go on. You know, it has been years since this whole thing went down. But top mom, Casey Anthony, seemingly is enjoying a great lifestyle. She has moved in with a private investigator, reportedly, that worked for the OJ Simpson defense team. Is anybody surprised about that? But her defense lawyer, Tom McCluso, has had quite a bit of legal troubles what about it alexis

tereschuk what's happened to her right hand man on the defense team well he was actually convicted of conspiracy to traffic drugs whoa whoa what what yep conspiracy to traffic drugs not you know an ounce or something 13 million dollars worth of cocaine they said that he had been conspiring to fly this cocaine from ecuador to honduras and a jury found him guilty of this 13 million dollars of drugs that's a lot of drugs you know what do i have to say dr bethany here's another one you can use with your patients. Here's some free advice. I'm not going to charge you. Lay down with dogs, get up with fleas, that would work here, or birds of a feather flock together, or let's see, a swan doesn't swim, doesn't fly. Wait, a swan doesn't swim in a cesspool. I mean, I could go on, but those are some you might want

to use with your clients. Do you know what we go ahead? Well, what we call it in my field is institutional sociopathy. I think I like my way better. It's when one person who lacks a conscience. You're making my head hurt, Bethany. What did you say? Institutional sociopathy. Oh, dear. Go ahead. What is that? What that means is one person who lacks a conscience finds another person who lacks a conscience. That means is one person who lacks a conscience finds another person who lacks a conscience. That person finds another person who lacks a conscience, and then they cluster together in a group. And when you're talking about Jose Baez, you know, throwing out such wild lies about Cronk the meter reader and about George and about Lee in his opening

statements, I think that, you know, Casey found an attorney who was as, you know, unconscientious as she was. And then they found another person and another person, and all these people clustered together and conspired together. The only person who seems to have had a conscience is the investigator. You know, the dad was not the only one. George wasn't the only one that the defense insisted fall on their sword. They roped Cindy Anthony. Now, this is a mother's love. This is a mother's love. Cindy got on the stand and insisted that the damning computer searches that Top Mom allegedly did for how do you make chloroform, the knockout drug, how do you make that? And there were, of course, the suggestion of chloroform in Top Mom's trunk.

Cindy got on the stand and claimed that she was the one that made those searches and that she was really looking up chlorophyll. Chlorophyll, you know, the chemical, let me say natural chemical that occurs during the process of photosynthesis when plants grow. That she was actually looking up chlorophyll and somehow she got spell-checked and looked up chloroform. I mean, Alexis, do you remember that they enlisted the entire family to lie for Top Mom? They did, and they pulled up really solid proof, it seemed to me, of what was searched on the computer,

and there was no chlorophyll searched. There wasn't. It was just Cindy's multiple appearances on the stand were heartbreaking because the longer it went on, the more things that she tried to say covering up for her daughter. Everybody could see that she wasn't telling the truth, I guess, except for those 12 jurors that found Casey not guilty. Well,

I got to tell you something. A lot of people would scream that Cindy had committed perjury and that wasn't true. But you know what? You can ask any mother, would you do this for your child? And even though Top Mom had lied on George, had allegedly killed her own daughter, Cindy still loved her and was willing to risk going to jail herself to save top mom Casey Anthony. I mean, you're right.

It was heartbreaking. I remember watching her on the stand and I just wanted to leave the courtroom. I felt like it was something so raw and emotional that we shouldn't even witness it. We shouldn't be seeing Cindy up there, you know, sacrificing herself for Top Mom. Guys, I want to stop. I've got to pause. I want to pause and thank our partners making today's program possible.

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Thank you for what you're doing for everybody, helping them get these beautiful smiles and for being our partner today. I want you to take a listen to Tot Mom Casey Anthony's mother on the stand. This as she has been spotted at various bars and has given statements that she's so proud that men find her attractive at bars and still buy her drinks. You know what? If I went to a bar looking the way I look right now, they're probably all run screaming for the hills. Okay. But top mom wants us to know that she can still snag a man in a bar to buy her a drink. You know what? I'm sure she is so proud of that accomplishment.

Now I want you to listen to her mother, Cindy Anthony. So I started texting her just to make sure that everything was okay. And I'd leave messages and then she'd call me back. I just wanted to, you know, talk to her at least every day to make sure she was okay and I did persist every day asking if I could speak with Kaylee because I miss hearing her little voice. All right. And were you given an opportunity to speak with Kaylee at all? No. Okay. Were you told at that point where Kaylee was? Yes. What were you told? I was told at various times that either Kaylee was napping or with Jeff's mother and Zachary, maybe at the beach in Jacksonville on a boat, just various places. Now, take a listen to what George and Cindy say

to Chris Hansen at Crime Watch Daily Listen. Would you support a lawsuit against your daughter? I don't think it'll ever come to that. I don't think she'll sell her story. George seems to think that it might. And now there are rumors of reality shows, even a show with her and O.J. Simpson. Oh, God.

What do you say to that? If it came down to that, I probably would. I'm okay with myself. I sleep pretty good at night. I'm okay with myself. I sleep pretty good at night. How? Cindy does not rest. I do not rest. I don't get a restful night's sleep. I know she hasn't for years. I've seen Kaylee on a couple of occasions.

Is this an apparition? Oh, no. I've seen her. I've seen her in the flesh. I've seen her in my house. One time she woke me up in the morning just tapping on with her little finger like she used to do. Was this a dream?

JoJo, wake up. Pardon me? Was this a dream? Oh, it wasn't a dream. It was like you and I are talking right now. How do you explain that? The strong spirit that's in our house. Was it your imagination? Oh, that's not an imagination. That's love and that's a connection that I wish more people could have. Is she a killer?

Do you think she intentionally wanted to kill Kaylee? I don't think she intentionally wanted to. I don't think she intentionally wanted to, but she should be in jail because of Kaylee not being here. And of course, Alexis and Dr. Bethany, I'm sure you won't be surprised that People Reports taught mom Casey Anthony, quote, rolls her eyes at her parents' statements. She couldn't care less, Bethany. She doesn't care at all. In fact, what's interesting is there's not even hatred or anger. There's no feeling at all. And I think that's really what

characterizes Casey Anthony is that she seems so empty. And even now she's living with one of the the attorneys that helped defend her, but her life is so small. Apparently she lives in this woman's house and does, I guess, assistant work for her or does her paperwork for her. You know, she's never established herself in the world. She doesn't have a job or a career. She just sort of languishing out there. That's not that different from her life before, Alexis. Are you surprised about the eye roll?

I'm not at all surprised about the eye roll. You know, she is somebody who only cares about herself. And in fact, this has been a crazy year for Casey because she's given multiple interviews. Well, she gave a series of interviews about to the Associated Press, but she said, you know what? I don't have a problem sleeping at night. I don't at all. If something had happened to my child, I probably would never sleep again. Or anybody who has somebody they care about. It doesn't even have to be a child. Just someone that you care about when something bad happens to them in such a horrific way. How could you ever sleep again?

No, Casey's fine. She says in her own words, you know, I don't have a problem sleeping at night. She cares only about herself. Well, you know what? Just talking about this, I'm going to have a problem sleeping tonight. And you know what? I'm going to sleep in the room with the twins because it worries me no end. When I cover a case like this, all I can think about is them being safe and warm and protected and waking up with a smile on their face.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.