Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Tot mom Casey Anthony TV offers? Baby Caylee visits grandpa George Anthony after she's murdered.

Episode Date: October 31, 2017

Casey Anthony's parents talk about their infamous daughter in a new interview. Nancy Grace listens to what George and Cindy Anthony are saying about reports that Tot Mom might team up with OJ Simpson to do a reality TV show. They also reveal that they believe granddaughter Caylee's spirit visits them in their home some nights. People magazine reporter Steve Heller, Seattle lawyer Anne Bremner, and psychologist Caryn Stark join Nancy to discuss the story. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Casey Anthony's parents are threatening to take legal action against their daughter. I don't think it'll ever come to that. I don't think she'll sell her story. There are rumors of reality shows, even a show with her and OJ Simpson. Oh God. Cindy Anthony also telling TV host Chris Hansen that Casey might not remember what happened to her daughter Kaylee because she might have blacked out during a seizure. Yes, I think Casey is mentally ill. Does it never end with Tot Mom Casey Anthony? She has reared her head again. You know, you'd think if you were acquitted, if you managed to escape with your own skin after being charged in the murder of your Tot daughter, Kelly, with overwhelming evidence of guilt.

You get off, but then you keep making the headlines, whether it's bragging that men still buy you drinks at bars to, you know, showing up at birthday parties and whoopsie, getting your picture on the front page of the paper. I mean, it just seems to never go away. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. And yes, Tot Mom Casey Anthony is back with word that there is a planned reality TV series with their daughter, Tot Mom Casey Anthony, and possibly even OJ Simpson. You know, right now they're claiming that they would sue her if she tries to do a reality

show. Based on what? Maybe intentional infliction of emotional distress, but I don't know what grounds they would have to sue her on. But not only that, they say that if Tot Mom killed her daughter, then she may have blacked out or was mentally ill. What, mentally ill for that one hour? Let's take a listen to what Tot Mom, Casey Anthony's parents parents have just said. and claimed it. What responsibility? The reason why Kaylee wasn't here with us anymore. The reason why she's gone. Do you think, looking back, she was mentally ill?

Yes, I think Casey is mentally ill. I really do. I think Casey's mentally ill. She's never had her seizures worked up. You think Casey had a seizure, potentially, and didn't even know what happened to Kaylee. That's a possibility. And she doesn't remember when she has seizures

unless she knows she's bit her tongue or something. Would you support a lawsuit against your daughter? I don't think it'll ever come to that. I don't think she'll sell her story. George seems to think that it might. And now there are rumors of reality shows, even a show with her and O.J. Simpson. Oh, God.

What do you say to that? If it came down to that, I probably would. She's talking about Kaylee still being with her, a part of her life, and perhaps having another child. I don't know where she would have another child with. It wouldn't be anywhere in this United States of America. Who knows? Maybe some other country would accept her.

She's had boyfriends since she's gotten out. Tell me about the suicide attempt. From the time that Kaylee, we were told that Kaylee was missing, taken, with Zanny. Whatever. Whomever she was with. I didn't feel I did enough to go find her. Did you want to die? I wanted to be with her.

I want, even to this day, she should be here, not me. I've seen Kaylee on a couple of occasions oh no i've i've seen her i've seen her in the flesh i've seen her in your house in in my house one time she woke me up in the morning just tapping on with my her little finger like she used to do was this a joke wake up pardon me was this a dream? Joe, Joe, wake up. Pardon me? Was this a dream? Oh, it wasn't a dream. It was like you and I are talking right now. How do you explain that?

The strong spirit that's in our house. Was it your imagination? Oh, that's not an imagination. That's love, and that's a connection that I wish more people could have. Is she a killer? Do you think she intentionally wanted to kill Kaylee? If Casey is watching this, what is your message to her? Stay away. Stay away from me. If she wants her relationship again with her mom, she's got a lot of explaining to do,

but I don't want to hear it no more from her. I don't want to see her. Cindy, if Casey is watching this, what do you say to her? Casey, be true to yourself. Start being honest with yourself. if Casey is watching this, what do you say to her? Casey, be true to yourself. Start being honest with yourself and own everything. Quit putting blame on everybody else. That is so full of issues and problems. I hardly know where to start.

Joining me now is Steve Helling from People Magazine and Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Karen Stark, renowned psychologist from New York, and of course, Alan Duke from LA. Steve Helling, first to you. How did this whole thing unfold? What do you make of the stories that top mom Casey Anthony has been approached to do a reality show? You know, we don't know about specific offers, but we do know that there's always been interest in Casey Anthony. And, you know, whenever anybody does anything on her, you know, it gets attention. So, of course, reality TV producers who all they're looking for is the next big audience will look into somebody like Casey Anthony and wonder, is this worth doing? And I think that's what's happening here. You know, to Karen Stark, psychologist, somehow it just seems wrong.

It's like with O.J. Simpson. Yes, they were acquitted, but the evidence was overwhelming that they were guilty. And it just seems wrong that she would now make money, really blood money, off her daughter's death. Without a doubt, Nancy, that would be a terrible problem. And I have a feeling that even though she gets tremendous attention, if she were to do a reality show like that, there would be a huge group of people that would be outraged because it is wrong. Steve Helling, does Todd Mom have a civil verdict hanging over her head? Yes. Right now, she has allegedly sold the rights to her life story for $25,000 to pay back her bankruptcy. But the thing is, what does her life story count for? I mean, are we talking about stuff that happened in the past? Did she

sign away her rights to do something about her life now? We don't know what all the legalities would be. Well, my question is, does she currently have like OJ Simpson has a 30 plus million dollar verdict, civil judgment hanging over him? It's a yes, no. Does million dollar verdict civil judgment hanging over him it's a yes no does she have a similar judgment hanging over her no she does not unless someone sued her like her parents if they sued her and won which I think they would in a civil case just like in Simpson she would have a multi-million dollar verdict hanging over her head. Also, she could be forced to take the stand. I want you to listen to something specific that George Anthony, you were hearing George and Cindy Anthony speaking earlier with Chris Hansen.

Take a listen to what George said specifically about being told he had to, quote, fall on his sword and take the blame for his daughter. Listen. We know we're going to pin her on you because you need to fall on the sword for your daughter. You need to do this. Wait, wait, wait. The defense attorney said to you, you need to fall on the sword. I need to fall on the sword for my daughter. In what way?

I need to take responsibility and claim that. What responsibility? The reason why Kaylee wasn't here with us anymore. The reason why she's gone. Out to high-profile Seattle lawyer, both criminal and civil, Ann Bremner, joining us. Ann, again, thank you for being with us. Ann, I find that very, very revealing. Because if anybody else had done it, they would have been running down that alley, that avenue of let's prove somebody else did it. But instead, at one juncture, the plan was to blame George when they knew he didn't do it.

But they were willing to stand in front of a jury and suggest that George Anthony killed Kelly or that he was responsible, Ann. And Nancy, it's always a pleasure to be on with you. Thanks for having me. I know. And the thing is, remember, Nancy, they called George to the stand over and over and over again. And they had that opening statement, Jose Baez did, where he talked about George and the pool and everything else and the molestation issue allegations. Wait, let's just put it out there for people that don't know.

The defense, Tottenham Casey Anthony's defense, tried to suggest that George Anthony had molested Tottenham Casey. I don't believe that for a minute. I have met with them, I know them, and I don't believe it. Now, who am I supposed to believe? Top Mom Casey Anthony or George Anthony, the former cop? She also, to add another reason that I don't believe her, Ann Bremner, is she blamed, said her,

didn't she say her brother tried to molest her too? That was out there too. I mean, it was just outrageous. And remember, there was a graphic description in the opening statement of Jose Baez about at least one sex act. But George inflicted on her, on Casey and all the stuff about, you know, denying the pregnancy and the weirdness in the house and everything else. He painted this picture in opening statement was pretty compelling and he never backed it up with any evidence. But George was the culprit for sure there was never any evidence at all that george anthony did any of that so i guess what they

concocted in their defense strategy meetings was a let's blame somebody else first there was zanny the nanny who turned out didn't exist so when it turned out she didn't exist, they had to find somebody else to blame. That was who Top Mom originally blamed. Remember that, Steve Helling? Her first story was Zannie the nanny who had been taking care of the baby all this time. I mean, she had been living this lie for, you know, a year, telling her parents that Zannie the nanny had the baby

when really she was chloroforming the baby with homemade chloroform and putting her in the trunk. Yeah. And that was the big fat lie, I guess. So Steve Helling, when they found out, when the defense found out there was really no Zanny the nanny, that probably took them a couple of months to get that out of top, Mom. They had to blame somebody, Steve.

Well, yeah, exactly. And, you know, that's the thing about Casey is that we, you know, for anybody who doesn't. Are you on a first name basis? It seems like it because I've covered her. Yeah, well, you're not. Okay. Well, you're scaring me.

Are you married? Wait, Steve, you're married, right? I am happily married. With children. With children, yes. I doubt that your wife wants you on a first name basis with top mom Casey Anthony. So just you can stop that now. Okay, you can call her Tot Mom. I can call her Miss Anthony. How about that? But yeah, the thing is that Miss Anthony. First name basis. You know, I'm protecting you from yourself. Well, thank you. I appreciate that,

Nancy. No, the thing about it is that she gave so many stories. And for anybody who wasn't around in 2008, it just seemed like every week there was a new story and there was something new that she had to say and it was never true. So, you know, even now, if we talk about what's going on in her life, we don't even know that anything that she says now is true. Reality show, we don't know if it's true because Casey makes up stories. Ms. Anthony makes up stories, I should say. Okay, let me go back to some of the lies at trial, okay? Because I don't particularly care about rehashing them.

But when you don't know a horse, look at their track record, okay? So it all started, and help me out, Ann Bremner, Karen Stark, Steve Helling from People Magazine. Because there's so many, I actually, believe it or not, may not even remember them all. So top mom Casey Anthony's been living with her parents. She's 30-something years old. Sitting home eating chips all day. She has a baby. Won't tell who the dad is.

So she doesn't get any child support. I don't give a't tell who the dad is, so she doesn't get any child support. I don't give a flying fig who the dad is, and I'm not judging. I don't care. I mean, even Mother Mary was pregnant before she got married, okay? So that's what I think about that. There's no shame at all attached to, in my mind, having a baby. In our society, I think it's better to be married because you get judged if you're not. But in this case, I find it important because she could have gotten child support for Pete's sake instead of her parents having to foot the bill. Anyway, so she's at home eating chips with the baby won't say who the dad

is no child support she says the whole time steve helling that she has a job at universal she even puts on a fake id in a little uniform and goes to quote work in quote that's a big fat lie steve helling all this time she never a job. She's just pretending and leaves the house and leaves the baby with them, right? Yeah, and that's the crazy thing about it is that, if you recall, she even took the cops on this weird back lot tour of Universal saying, oh, I work here. And then finally, when nobody recognized her, she had to say, oh, okay, no, I don't actually work here.

Wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on, hold on. You're right. Karen Stark and Ann Bremner. First to say, okay, no, I don't actually work here. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Hold on, hold on, hold on. You're right. Karen Stark and Ann Bremner. First to you, Karen. Sadly, Ann, as valuable as I think your trial strategy is, I've got to go to a shrink on this. I mean, Karen Stark, it's one thing to start a lie.

I used to read a little book from Veggie Tales to the Children when they were little called Larry's Big Fib. And he starts a lie, and then he has to keep feeding the lie, or everybody will find out he lied. So he has stuck with this lie, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger until it threatens to eat everybody. Then he finally tells the truth. I mean, wait a minute. So you tell your parents a lie,

so they'll have to take care of the baby while you go to work, your fake job. But then your baby goes missing, and police are working with you to find the baby and you continue the lie you go all the way to universal security gate and make up the names of people that you work with and they try to call your your extension blah blah well at what point do you find, they go in and try to find these people, she's going along with it. When do you finally break down and tell the truth? Well, the question Nancy would be, does she understand what the truth is? And pathological liars, that's how you know that there's psychosis involved with it is they believe their own lives and clearly in the case wait a minute Karen yes Karen she finally said okay you got me like she's kind of laughing

okay I don't really work here so the whole not knowing the truth that's bs because she did know the truth she said okay you got me. Guilty. I still don't know where my daughter is. She knows on some level, she knows the truth, but she is so good at lying that on another level, the mind is very complicated. She can believe her own lies and then she gets caught and she has to admit, yep, it is a lie. Then she admits it to herself.

But she'll go from that to then making up another lie She has to admit, yep, it is a lie. Then she admits it to herself. But she'll go from that to then making up another lie and another lie. It's how she lives her life. This is normal for her. Well, normal doesn't mean she doesn't know she's lying. Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer. She believes it, though. While she's saying it, she believes it.

Ann, I don't think for one minute she believed any of these lies. Because as soon as she's caught, she goes, okay, all right, all right, I was lying. You got me. But I didn't kill my daughter. I'm really telling the truth about that. The whole time she, okay, the baby goes missing, Ann Bremner. And she goes and moves in with a boyfriend and all of his roommates. I'm sure they were all so happy together.

The whole time, the baby wasn't there. The whole time she lived with him. And she said, Zanny the nanny had the baby or her parents had the baby. Nobody had the baby. She sustained that lie day in, day out, for weeks on end. I guess the baby was already killed and hidden out in that swampy area near her old elementary school where she used to go sneak off and smoke, or was in her trunk decaying. Ann? Well, absolutely. We heard that evidence in the trial about, of course, the issue, the evidence of the

body had probably been in the trunk for some time, I remember, back in the backyard. And, you know, wasn't it about a month, Nancy? And the thing is, the one thing, though, I thought that Jose biased it effectively on the lies was that he basically turned it around on the prosecution and said she has all these imaginary friends remember he grasped that all out and that she lives in the fantasy world and he made it all kind of seem a little more plausible than being an outright lie which would indicate guilt I mean it's remember falsus in unum falsus in plurium false in one false in all if he could twist it and make it not an outright lie, but imagination.

That's what he tried to do. And I think he did it pretty effectively. Steve Howling, do I need to give you some nausea, Madison, about right now? I've got a pretty strong stomach for all things Ms. Anthony these days, just because we've been dealing with this now for nine years. So, you know, it's surprising that even now, I can't wrap my head around her pathology, the way that she lied again and again and again. I just don't understand. Well, you've got Karen Stark saying,

oh no, she really believed her lies until she was caught. Then she suddenly didn't believe them anymore. And Ann Bremner saying it wasn't a lie. It was just a fantasy. Well, I know this. Kelly's dead. And right now, stories circulating that Top Mom is about to launch a TV series. Now, we've established that there's no civil judgment hanging over her head,

so if she had a TV series or a reality show, that money would go in her pocket. Unlike O.J. Simpson, his would go straight to the Brown and Goldman families because he's got that civil judgment. So would her parents sue her? Take a listen to what they say. Would you support a lawsuit against your daughter? I don't think it'll ever come to that. I don't think she'll sell her story. George seems to think that it might. And now there are rumors of reality shows, even a show with her and OJ Simpson. Oh God. What do you say to that? If it came down to that, I probably would.

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LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom, thank you for what you are doing for business owners and for being our partner today. I want to go back to the shocking claim that top mom Casey Anthony is considering a reality show, which she would get paid a lot of money for. To Steve Helling with People Magazine, Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, and Karen Stark, psychologist from New York, joining us along with Alan Duke. Steve Helling, what is Top Mom doing now? How is she supporting herself? Well, you know, she's living with her private investigator, and she does legal work

for him. You mean the private investigator from the OJ Simpson defense team. Yes, one in the same, Nancy. That's what I'm talking about. And so she lives down there in South Florida. Steve Howling. Yes. Steve Howling. Do you know what my grandmother used to say? What did she used to say? Lay down with the dog, you'll wake up with fleas. Okay. So birds of a feather flock together. I mean, I could go on and on and on. So the defense lawyer, investigator from OJ Simpson and Tot Mom are living together. Is that right? Yes, that is absolutely correct. Sounds like two snakes in a barrel to me. Go ahead.

And she does legal work for him, which basically is online research, which means that she's always online. I'm assuming that also includes Googling herself all the time. So there was that. I'm afraid to Google myself. I'm afraid the twins might see it. Okay, go ahead. And that's the bottom line. That's what she does all day. She doesn't have a wide circle of friends. You know, now and then we see her out because pictures are mysteriously released it's it's really odd nancy how often photographers just happen to be so steve helling from people magazine how much money do you think she gets from tipping them off and giving them her candid photos my guess is just a couple thousand each time it's not a couple of thousand each time

to go to a bar and have a drink? She gets paid? Ouch. Oh, yeah. I believe completely because, you know, that's how this machine works. And she has figured out how to be part of that machine. And in the past, people from her team had contacted me way back, 2011, 2012. You know, hey, there might be some pictures. Are you interested?

And we always said no. So they stopped coming to us. But they found other people who would apparently find all of us. Oh, you know, Ann Brimner and Karen Stark, I'm going to follow up on something Steve Hilling said. On my HLN show, we never, ever, ever paid for an interview or ever. Now, this is interesting. Some bigger shows with a whole lot of money,

they'll say we did not pay for the interview. That's not journalistic integrity. We only paid a licensing fee for the photos. In other words, so Tottenham takes a picture, gives a picture of herself with Kelly, hands it over. They pay an $80,000 licensing fee for the photo but not for the interview oh no no way so bottom line you know same thing money changes hands so you're what do you make of that karen stark do you think she's ever thought of actually getting a job why would she have to nancy if she's able to get away with doing it? It's think about, you know, how she's crafted all of this to fit her lifestyle, that she could make money from

being anywhere from taking a walk, and not have to deal with the fact that she had this child that disappeared, and that she's a murderer. She just goes on and sees herself as a celebrity. And you can count on the fact that that's how she views herself. That's her living. You know, I'm just thinking it through, Ann Bremner. I mean, I wonder what are they going to sell next? I'm not talking about her parents because, listen, Ann, again, I'm not a shrink, obviously. I'm just a trial lawyer.

But I have met with George and Cindy Anthony I've watched them very carefully I've hung on their every word America met them at the worst possible time of their lives their beloved the only thing they lived for really was Kelly raising Kelly and they raising her. Top Mom was doing nothing but leeching off them and supporting Top Mom. So Kelly suddenly goes missing. And then their daughter, regardless of what we think of her, is charged with her murder. So this is the worst possible scenario for them. And then they've got the press camped out on their front yard.

Of course they come out there and cry and yell and show out. I mean, who wouldn't for Pete's sake? I mean, you can only jab at somebody so long before they bite back. When I met them, Ann, I've got to tell you, they were two fine people and I I mean that I really do um so when you're hearing when I'm saying what's going to be sold next I'm not referring to them and I want to be clear about that so what will be sold next Kelly's baby clothes and Bremner well absolutely and there was some indication back during the trial that baby pictures were sold or licensed, as we just talked about. Who knows what's next?

She's talking about a reality show and she's selling paparazzi pictures and everything else. She has no shame. Googling herself all the time. And she's going to need some reputation management on that. But she seems to just go forward blithely as if she is, like Karen said, a celebrity rather than a murderess in all of our eyes. That's how we see her. We learned so much with Chris Hansen from Crime Watch Daily speaking with the Anthonys. that they believe she must have been temporarily mentally ill, which, you know, is not really a legal concept. There's this temporary insanity that never wins because it's so far-fetched.

You've got George and Cindy sitting there going along with it. I don't think they're both lying. I don't think either of them are lying. The defense, with nowhere else to go but the obvious that their client's guilty tells George he's got to fall on a sword and he's got to say he did it and it was an accident. Okay. Then you've got, gosh, you've got so much in that one conversation. Steve Helling, People Magazine, what stuck out in your mind? Well, you know, I can't say that I was surprised at a lot of it, but I am surprised to see how much they're still mourning

and how they're talking. George is talking about how, you know, he sees Kaylee come into the house and touch him on the cheek while he's asleep. And, you know, these are still people. You know what? I want to talk about that, too. I've seen Kaylee on a couple of occasions.

Is this an apparition? Oh, no, I've seen her. I've seen her in the flesh. I've seen her in my house. One time she woke me up in the morning just tapping on with her little finger like she used to do. Was this a dream? JoJo, wake up.

Pardon me? Was this a dream? JoJo, wake up. Pardon me? Was this a dream? Oh, it wasn't a dream. It was like you and I are talking right now. How do you explain that? The strong spirit that's in our house. Was it your imagination? Oh, that's not an imagination.

That's love, and that's a connection that I wish more people could have. Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb with you guys. I definitely believe that there is a life after death. I don't know what it is. I don't know that it's anything like we imagine it to be. I don't think there's a street paved with gold and rubies or anything material of this earth at all. But I really do believe, Karen Stark, that there have been so many instances of life after death experiences, of sightings, just a million different things. If even one of them is true, just one of the millions of stories, that means there is a life after death.

I think it's entirely believable what George is saying. I don't understand it. I don't know how to explain it, but I also don't know how the phone or the TV works. So, you know, that's just something that a guy made up in his lab. I really believe this can happen. I don't understand it, but there's been so many instances of this. How can it be false, Karen? Well, I don't know it. But I if there's been so many instances of this, how can it be false, Karen? Well, I don't know if I can answer that it's false, or it's true, Nancy. But I do know that people say it all the time, and have told me my own patients have told me of experiences of people they lost to were standing near their bed, or they could see them as though, you know, they were back

in their lives again. So whether it happens to be true or it's a wish that you conjure up or another state in their mind, it certainly is something that we can't say, oh, George, there's something wrong with him. It is believable in that respect. So you're taking the safe route. Okay. I respect that. Ann Brenner, what does it say to you? Well, I think there's a real love there that never ends.

And I think that he sees her. I mean, it may be more than that in terms of what everyone's just said, but it's very strong indicator about indicator about the loss, you know, of George and Cindy. So, Steve Helling, what do you make of what George said? Well, I guess I'm going to be the skeptic on the panel. I think he was asleep. I think that, you know, he was dreaming or it was his imagination.

I just do. It's generally how I see these things. But then again, who am I to tell George Anthony what he saw and what he didn't see? And you know, if it gives nobody, that's who you're nobody to tell him he did or didn't see. But I don't think it's something that I have to figure out today because it's really beyond my understanding.

But he definitely said, I believe Steve Helling, that he was awake and it was not his imagination. Well, you know what, whatever gets him the comfort that he needs, I am totally on board with. So, you know, I don't have to believe him. It's not my place to believe him or not. But I kind of am a skeptic with this one. You know, just hearing his words is so haunting to think that Kelly appeared in the home to comfort him or that he is so heartbroken that he imagines her being there. I played earlier the portion of George and Cindy speaking, where they say that they would sue if she does a reality series on TV. To Steve Helling from People Magazine, Steve, what would the grounds, what would the basis of the lawsuit be?

You know, they could sue her for the same thing as you mentioned with Ron Goldman's family suing OJ Simpson for, you know, wrongful death, they could sue her for wrongful death. I think that that's a possibility, though I don't know the statute of limitations. I'm probably the only non-lawyer on this panel. There's probably other things that they could sue for as well. I mean, they've been through a lot. Well, if she did a reality show, that would start the statute rolling when they saw it or heard about it. And I'm assuming to Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, what do you believe the grounds of such a lawsuit would be? Of course, if she said anything about them that was defamatory, they could sue for slander or if it was printed libel. Exactly, Nancy.

I was thinking the same thing. Some kind of false light or defamation. And the statute starts, of course, when they see it. Or infliction of emotional distress. A wrongful death, of course, is going to have generally like around a three-year statute. And the question is their standing as grandparents could be at issue as well. But if she starts into something like this, then sure, they could look at a lawsuit and look at O.J. Simpson's thirty three million dollar verdict against him from the Browns and the Goldman's.

I mean, that judgment will take any money that he gets. And they took that book that he wrote called If I Did It. Remember, they took over and republished as book that he wrote called If I Did It, remember? They took over and republished as a confessional and called it I Did It. I'm going to play you more of Totten Mom, Casey Anthony's parents, George and Cindy in just one moment. But I want to thank our partner making our program possible today. Guys, you know how much I love Fat Boy.

Ann Bremner, I know Karen Stark and Alan Duke know who Fat Boy is. Ann, do you and Steve Helling know Fat Boy? It's my dog. Now, Ann, what about, wasn't your cat name, was it Mickey or Mikey? Jimmy! Jimmy, yes, Jimmy. And guys, you're never going to believe this. Jimmy, Ann lives in High Rise, knew how to take the elevator. Jimmy would go and wait at the

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now i want to turn back to the latest on tot mom casey anthony i mean you know steve helling it's just been one thing after the next first there was j Baez's book. Then the private investigator for the defense, Dominic, what was his last name, Steve? Well, if I say it, you're just going to yell at me, but his name was Dominic Casey. I thought in my head it was Dominic Casey, but I couldn't imagine that coincidence being true. Or as Ann Bremner taught me to say and you'll be happy to know the children now say coinkydink um coinkydink yes a coinkydink I love that so then Dominic Casey came out with the claims but actually these were the the bankruptcy papers as I believe how they surfaced that she throughout the trial was having a sex affair with her defense lawyer, Jose Baez, which he denies, and that he actually came to the office one weekend

and saw her running from one office to the next without any clothes on. Because remember, she was on house arrest for a period of time, Steve Helling, and could go to church, fat chance, or to her lawyer's office. And so she would stay there for hours and hours on end. So one... Well, that was, I mean, obviously that was Dominic Casey's allegations. But I have personally caught him

in things that ended up not being true. So I don't know that there's any truth. I don't know. Yeah, we don't know if those allegations are true or not. They were sworn documents in bankruptcy proceedings,

but whether they're true, I don't know. My point is that ever since her acquittal, there's been one episode after the next. You had her defense attorney photoed shooting a bird at the public. Then you had, defense attorney photoed shooting a bird at the public. Then you had.

Let's see what happened after that. What did she shoot a bird in the middle of the trial? Or was that Jody Arias? I don't know. They're kind of blending together. That was Jody Arias. That wasn't Casey. Oh, OK.

Then let's see what happened. Oh, yes. Then there is her giving the video interview where she says that guys still are interested in her and want to buy her drinks at bars. Karen Stark, why would someone feel that they had to blurt that out? Because she's a narcissist, Nancy. If you recall, she would go out and party and dance all night knowing that her daughter was missing and that she probably had killed her. So she has no conscience and she needs to get attention, be that celebrity. That's what narcissists are like. You know, Ann Bremner, as I recall, while the baby was, quote, missing, i.e., dead and discarded in a swampy area, a wooded area behind the school where Top Mom used to go hide out and smoke and cut school in that very spot. Gee, there's another coincidence that that's where the unknown killer would hide the body at Top Mom's little hangout. Nine houses down from the Anthony home.

You know, that killer didn't make it very far, did he? Just decided for no ransom, for no reason really, to just discard the body right down the street from the Anthony's home but it remember the during the interim when people were looking everywhere volunteers police you name it were looking for Kelly she top mom was videoed at I think it was Target or Walmart Walmart, buying 18 packs of beer and lingerie, a push-up bra, of course using forged checks from her friend. But that's where her head was while everybody else was out looking for her daughter. Well, and she, of course, was dancing in the hot body contest, and then she got the tattoo. Oh, you mean on the stripper pole?

The Bella Vita. I forgot about the tattoo. Jog my memory on the tattoo, Ann Bremner. The sweet life. She had a tattoo put on her arm that said, La Bella Vita, which means a beautiful life. And that was after the baby was killed? That's what I remember. And that was a really big deal in the prosecution's case,

which was basically the theory that she wanted freedom. She didn't want to have this baby. She wanted the boyfriend. She wanted the hot body contest, dancing, freewheeling, single lifestyle. And then she kind of cemented her intentions with that. So Bella Vita, it's my beautiful life. I'm starting a new life. So that's how Jeff Ashton, the prosecutor, as I recall,

portrayed it in his closing argument. Listen to one more time to George and Cindy Anthony, what these two have lived through since the murder of their granddaughter and the trial of their daughter is almost more than I can imagine. Take a listen. This is them talking to Chris Hansen from CWD. Take a listen. We know we're going to pin it on you because you need to fall on the sword for your daughter.

You need to do this. Wait, wait, wait. The defense attorney said to you, you need to fall on the sword. I need to fall on the sword for my daughter. In what way? I need to take responsibility and claim that. What responsibility? The reason why Kaylee wasn't here with us anymore.

The reason why she's gone. Do you think looking back she was mentally ill? Yes, I think Casey is mentally ill. I really do. I think Casey's mentally ill. She's never had her seizures worked up. You think Casey had a seizure potentially and didn't even know what happened to Kaylee? That's a possibility. And she doesn't remember when she

has seizures unless she knows she's bit her tongue or something. Would you support a lawsuit against your daughter? I don't think it'll ever come to that. I don't think she'll sell her story. George seems to think that it might. And now there are rumors of reality shows, even a show with her and O.J. Simpson. Oh, God. What do you say to that? If it came down to that, I probably would. She's talking about Kaylee still being with her,

a part of her life, and perhaps having another child. I don't know where she would have another child with. It wouldn't be anywhere in this United States of America. Who knows? Maybe some other country would accept her. She's had boyfriends since she's gotten out. Tell me about the suicide attempt. From the time that Kaylee, we were told that Kaylee was missing, taken, with Zannie. Whatever.

Whomever she was with. I didn't feel I did enough to go find her. Did you want to die? I wanted to be with her. I want, even to this day, she should be here, not me. I've seen Kaylee on a couple of occasions. Was this an apparition? Oh, no, I've seen her. I've seen her in the flesh.

I've seen her right... In your house? In my house. One time she woke me up in the morning just tap one on with my her little finger like she used to do was this a jojo wake up pardon me was this a dream oh it wasn't a dream it was like you and i are talking right now how do you explain that the strong spirit that's in our house was it your imagination oh that's not an imagination that that's that's love and that's that's a connection that i wish more people could have.

Is she a killer? Do you think she intentionally wanted to kill Kaylee? If Casey is watching this, what is your message to her? Stay away. Stay away from me. If she wants her relationship again with her mom, she's got a lot of explaining to do, but I don't want to hear it no more from her. I don't want to see her. Cindy, if Casey is watching this, what do you say to her? Casey, be true to yourself. Start being honest with yourself and own everything. Quit putting blame on everybody else. Steve Heling, People Magazine investigative reporter, Ann Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle,

Karen Stark, renowned psychologist, joining us from New York, and of course, Alan Duke, my partner in crime, joining me from L.A. We hear it just like you hear it. This is what we think. What about you? Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.