Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TRACKING KOHBERGER: Idaho Student Murders

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

All this week Nancy Grace is in Idaho. Today, Nancy and her team drive the route Bryan Kohberger's reported drove after the murders. Kohberger's phone was turned off during the time of the murders,  but once the phone was turned on at around 4:50 a.m,  investigators were able to track its movement.  The phone was tracked near Blaine, Idaho.  Tracking also showed Kohberger traveling south to Genese, west to Uniontown, and north back into Pullman.  Nancy Grace describes the dark, eerie drive.   Joining Nancy Grace today:  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips   Host: Zone 7 Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, coldcasefoundation.org,  Host of YouTube channel,  The Interview Room David Leroy-Attorney at Law (Boise, ID), Former Idaho Attorney General, Former Idaho Lieutenant Governor & Former Prosecutor (Ada County), DLeroy.com, Facebook.com/BoiseCriminalDefense Dr. Angela Arnold- Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital  Dave Mack Crime online Investigative reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are live here in Moscow, Idaho, camped outside the so-called murder house where four beautiful young co-eds, three girls, one guy, lost their lives. And I've got to tell you, there is an eerie silence here. One thing I just noticed as I sat down at this fold-out table, about 20 feet from me is an apartment complex, an apartment building right beside the murder house. And I can clearly hear an infant inside crying. the murder house appears to have caught whimpering, muted whimpering at the time we believe the murders occurred of those four students. And from what I can tell now, that is entirely possible,

if not overwhelmingly probable. I mean, I can hear everything that's happening right beside me. And out in the street, there's no question that security cam could have picked up any sounds, including a loud thud or a dog barking or whimpering. And speaking of whimpering, I've got an all-star panel. I'll introduce them as we go along. But to Cheryl McCollum joining me, forensic expert, founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, now star of Zone 7, a new hit podcast. Cheryl, when I hear that word whimpering, I can't get away from it. I cannot get away from one of those girls, or possibly Ethan, actually whimpering after they've

been stabbed. You know, half awake, half asleep. I'm not really even sure they were all asleep, Cheryl, because one of them had just gotten door dashed for something. How could they be asleep at the time of the murders? But I do believe they were in their beds. But the whimpering, Cheryl, it just, it's awful. Whoa, wait, did you, could you hear that? I can hear the baby, and it's further away from me than the murder house. So there's no question that security cam was picking up the sounds of the murders. Go ahead,

Cheryl. Nancy, what it does to me is it allows the general public to hear this crime in progress, which normally we are not at all able to witness that as an ear witness. And it's going to be followed up by what the security camera says is also a thud. We're going to know when this life ended in real time. And I think that's going to be critical in the future for a jury to understand this is not something off TV. This happened. You know, to everybody on the panel, you've all been to crime scenes, murder scenes, but I've only felt this feeling at a couple of murders in the past.

It's very eerie here. It's quiet. I was saying earlier that it feels like you've gone into an empty church or you're out in a cemetery. There's just a very eerie feeling around the house. And it's just the way you described it. Joining me also is Chris McDonough, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, and star of The Interview Room on YouTube. I'm looking right over at the Sigma Chi house and it's amazing to me.

You warned me, Chris. I have circled this house on foot and in an SUV over and over and over. There is nowhere that you don't have a bird's eye view straight into their home, Chris McDonough. Yeah, Nancy, and isn't that chilling just in and of itself when you, as the way you describe how, you know, the scene is so silent, it's almost as if the universe is frozen, that moment of this horrific crime. And I felt the same thing when I was there, right there on the same road with you. It is extremely, I don't know, just unsettling, yet holy at the same time.

You know, another thing when you said it was frozen in time, in the back, it looks like they still got Christmas lights strung up. But another thing I noticed, and this is really interesting to me, David Leroy is with me. Guys, you know that name well. He's a high-profile lawyer out of Idaho. He's the former Idaho Attorney General and Lieutenant Governor, former prosecutor at dleroy.com. But what intrigues me the most is not just his legal prowess. He has been in this home many times. You know, David Leroy, Chris McDonough tried to warn me, but how easy it was, I could not really fathom how easy it was to see. I mean, these girls were like fish in a little fishbowl for the killer to spy on them, laughing, making breakfast, changing clothes, getting out of the

bathtub or the shower, making out with their boyfriends. I mean, how many times do you think Koberger stood right behind this house and looked in? You know, there are trees right behind the house, David Leroy, but they're not thick at all. I can see straight through them. What would you say, Sidney? Maybe seven or eight trees and they're tall and spind all. I can see straight through them. What would you say, Sidney? Maybe seven or eight trees and they're tall and spindly. You can see straight through them. They might as well not even be there.

Well, the setting, as you have discovered, Nancy, is both somewhat intimate, a little offshoot of a road that almost dead ends halfway up a hill. It therefore is on a rim where you can look across the Sigma Chi house. But one thing that hasn't been particularly well detailed is across the street from the Sigma Chi house and behind the next hill is the administration building for the university, perhaps just a quarter of a mile as the crow would fly from that house.

So it's isolated. It's halfway up a hill. It has these vistas and views, but it's really almost smack dab in the middle of the campus itself. Guys, another thing we learned last night, we got in an SUV and the SUV was taken from the murder scene all the way back to Coburgers Pullman home. And I want to tell you what we learned. He didn't go straight home. I think he was trying to throw off LA law enforcement. What should have been a 9 to 15 minute drive turned out to be an hour drive. It reminds me a lot of Murdoch on his rural route when he got shot in the head and lied about it. Remember he claimed he took this long circuitous route from A to B. When it would have been about an 11 minute drive, he chose to make a 45-minute drive so he wouldn't be seen when he had himself shot in the head

as an alibi of sorts. But long story short, this route taken in the middle of the night, that's when we took the route in the pitch dark. It's very sparse. It's a real no-man's land. He could have thrown that knife anywhere. It does not get even close to the Snake River. So I don't believe the knife is in the Snake River. But there were some homes, but no traffic. We passed about two or three cars the whole hour. Pitch dark, no street lights,

which is common in the country. But he could have done anything he wanted with that knife. Now, this is what I want to throw to you guys. Do you believe, as I do, that if L.E., law enforcement, looks at the records long enough, they will catch him with his cell phone plotting that route, practicing that route? What do you think, Cheryl McCollum? Nancy, I think he's going to have maps on the wall inside his apartment. I think not only is it on his phone and on his computer, I literally think he has pinpointed and charted this thing out where he can look at it every day. You know, you said interesting, and I don't know if you

meant it the way I took it, to look at it every day. Cheryl, you know what I carry with me all the time? My dad's shirt. And I look at it every morning when I wake up. I look at it at night before I go to sleep. I miss him so much. It's something that I love because it's part of him. Did you hear what she said, Dr. Angela Arnold? I don't know if she

meant it this way. With me is Dr. Angie Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. She said he looks at it all the time, all the time. As a memento, like I would look at a scrapbook of the twins growing up, their first grade, their christening, their first Christmas. Explain that. Why would he want to look at the map? Nancy, to me, more than a memento, it's an obsession. He's obsessing over what he's going to do. He's got these obsessive thoughts.

They're very bad thoughts that go through his head. And so he's plotting this out. Okay, I'm looking for a little more from you, Dr. Angie. Not very bad thoughts. I mean, I can say that. You're the psychiatrist. He's got incongruent thoughts in his head about murder, about murdering someone. And it just so happens that these people are the target of who he has set out to murder

at this particular time in his life. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, we look for a motive, even though the state doesn't have to prove a motive ever in any case. But a jury likes to hear, what's the motive? Why would the person do this? Well, you've got to rape somebody. You've got to steal something. You've got anger. You've got drugs steal something. You've got anger. You've

got drugs or alcohol. In this case, we had none of that. But I'm just wondering, I think about those questionnaires he sent to felons, like, what were you thinking? What was going through your mind? What were you feeling when you committed that murder, when you raped that lady? What were you thinking? I would never even imagine asking a perp something like that. But I really think, I think that's Chris. Listen to this theory, and you can shoot it down if you feel like it. But what about this?

That when the questionnaires wouldn't do it for him anymore, he tried to get on with a police department, hoping to see crime scenes. When that fell through, he finally acted on his impulses, on his obsession. Go ahead. We used to say in homicide, knowledge is having the correct answer. Intelligence is asking the right question. And this guy, to your point, got to a point where there was something that had built up. And, you know, when you start paying attention to the detail, like we're talking here, then the big picture will start taking care of itself. The pre-planning, all of the movements he was making prior to the incident, the incident itself and the post-incident, all of those behavior patterns established with all of the evidence will paint the big picture of who this guy really is. Nancy, back on the big picture.

Go ahead, David Leroy. Those three roadways are important, the directions they go and what they are, to your observation about and in relation to this big picture. Two of them are major highways into going through rolling hills and wheat fields. The first road he took was a major highway south to Lewiston, Idaho, and that would suggest, were he to be followed, that he was interested in being in Lewiston or going to Lewiston, but it is exactly away from Pullman, Washington. The road that he ended up on going back to Pullman was a major highway going from south to north that would indicate somebody on it had no relationship to Moscow. And what he did to tie those two things together, neither one of which suggests any relationship to Pullman, is to cross between those two highways on this rural agricultural back road that spans some six or seven or eight miles. And so the idea here was to leave town,

going away from Pullman, to come back to town, not having any relationship to having been in Moscow, and to obscure those two directions by this back road where he would run into nobody. That's the importance of this three-road connection. Hey, Nancy, I got to jump back in here real quick. Yeah, go ahead. Okay, so when I said he would be staring at it, I meant that. That's why he literally, I believe, put things on the wall. Remember when you took the twins across the country?

How long did you spend looking at national parks and state parks and places to stay and roadside attractions to show them? For the past four months, this is all he has done. We know of 12 times he visited before the murders. We know of at least four he visited the day of the murders. One very significant thing about this guy, Ted Bundy worked at Rape Crisis so he could hear from the victims because that's what got him off.

This guy wanted to hear from perpetrators. That's where his mind is because that's how he sees himself. That's a solid point, Cheryl. You know, I'm just thinking about how the cops tore apart his apartment. And I'm wondering, we know he is extremely fastidious. Did he keep written notes? Did he plan in writing? Did he have a list on his computer? I wonder what he bought when he went to Albertsons, which I think, isn't Albertsons a grocery store, guys? He went to an Albertsons.

I'm wondering what he got there right after the murders, after he came back and looked at the crime scene again. And we catch criminals coming back to the scene so often. I mean, think of Scott Peterson. Remember how he would go to the edge of a scenic vista and look out on the San Francisco Bay? I guess what was he looking to see if Lacey's body had popped up in the water? But it's almost instinctual. I'm just hoping the cops can get him practicing that route on his cell phone.

Very circuitous route. When we drove it last night, pitch dark, everybody. Point is, you got to know where you're going. A lot of twists and turns on that route. And I guarantee you, just knowing him, as much as we know him now, after seeing him, after hearing about him, cleaning out his car so meticulously, wearing gloves even after the incident, you know he planned this out and he had to leave a trail.

But can we find the trail? Also, we know that in a few short hours, there's going to be what is called a status hearing. It's going to be Thursday morning. Straight out to you, David Leroy, in this jurisdiction, what is a status hearing? A status hearing before the magistrate early on in a felony case, before a preliminary hearing is had had will simply be a scheduling conference at which probably two things will come up. Number one, the judge will be asking the defense if they are ready to or wish to have their preliminary hearing at which the prosecution would be required to call witnesses and produce evidence to show a belief to a probable cause. The status hearing principally will be called

to show the defense the opportunity. I'm going to start again here, Nancy. The defense will have an opportunity at this status hearing to indicate to the judge whether they wish to go forward with the probable cause hearing called a preliminary hearing immediately or delay that. That will be the first issue that is considered. The second issue will likely be a discussion about whether discovery, the exchange of police reports and other materials back and forth from the prosecutor to the defense and the defense's response to it is going adequately and smooth. So it's essentially a scheduling conference. Okay. You know what?

Another thing, you hear about status conferences typically in civil cases where the judge is saying, okay, you had a car wreck. Are you going to settle or do I need to put this on a trial calendar? Can't you people get along talking to the lawyers, not the parties? Trust me. Can't you come up with something so we don't have to go to trial? That's how I view status conferences in this case, which of course is not civil, it's criminal. Just as David Leroy is describing, it's kind of an update. How are we moving along? Do you need experts paid for by the state? Do you need other people on your

team? Also, when it comes to a preliminary hearing, I would imagine that the state would opt for a grand jury proceeding rather than put their witnesses up on the stand for the defense to get a first strike, you know, take a whack at them before the jury trial. So I'm imagining, I'm thinking that the state will opt with a grand jury as opposed to a preliminary hearing. As we wait for that status hearing to start, also we're wondering if Brian Koberger will be at the status hearing. And I can guarantee you, I believe he will. Why? Is there anything important really going on?

No, there's not. It's just a scheduling matter. But if they don't bring the defendant in, he could later claim he missed something important and his constitutional rights were violated. And we've also learned the jail here is in the courthouse. So why not just shuttle him up the elevator and get him in there for that status hearing, whether he needs to be there or not. Cross your T's, dot your I's. You know, nobody means to make a mistake, but it happens in criminal cases. And once it's happened, it can actually change the course

of the investigation and the trial. You know, a lot is going down. I want to take some calls from our viewers and emails all of their questions. Here's a good one. Take a listen to this, guys. This is from Bambi. Interested in the DoorDash delivery person. Did they drop the food off at the door or did someone get it from them? Was the delivery person interviewed by police to see if... Hey,

police. Glad to see you, Moscow police. Glad to see you. And I want to tell you, they have been patrolling this area nonstop. You would be surprised at all of the rubberneckers that are just coming by to stare at the house. It's a little freaky, right? But of course, maybe they're trying to figure something out just like we are. Okay, back to Bambi. Was the delivery person interviewed by police to see if they noticed the killer's car or anything else that happened that night? Okay, that leads me to another question. Sydney, you would know the answer to this probably.

Don't DoorDash cars have a camera? Not necessarily. Oh, not necessarily. I was thinking more about Ubers or Lyfts. They always have a camera. Depends on the driver. May or may not have a camera. Depends on the driver. May or may not have a camera. Okay, let's go with this question.

Door-delivery person. Okay, you guys are very familiar with the timeline. What do you make of the door-delivery so close to the time of the murder, Cheryl McCollum? I think it very well may have been his opening. If he was in the watch area and he saw maybe she opened the door and just closed it right back, she didn't maybe engage the lock, that gave him his little entry into the home. You know, here's a good question from Jennifer. And guys, everybody on the panel, jump in if you have a thought.

Jennifer, we know he spent a lot of time scoping the house prior to that night. We know it was a party house. When I was in college, I lived in a party house. We know it was a party house. When I was in college, I lived in a party house. We never questioned strangers who stopped in. We always thought they were just friends of friends. I wonder if he ever drove by when there was a party and actually

went in. Wow. Okay, this guy was socially awkward, but he also tried to make friends with people. In in fact some of his neighbors would try to get away from him because he wanted to talk so much who was that was that chris mcdonough or david leroy that was chris nancy jump in go ahead you know with this guy's ego uh that would not surprise me if he tried to you, blend into a party scene.

Oh, you mean like James Bond going into the casino, acting all natural like he's really gambling? Yeah. Got it. I could see that too, now that you're saying it that way. Yes. And really getting off on it. What about that, Cheryl?

I'm going to come back to you, Chris. Can't you see him trying to blend into a party? I have a 19-year-old girl, and there is no way an almost 30-year-old man would blend into a party she was at. He would stick out like a sore thumb. Well, I know that, and you know that. But other partygoers would have come forward by now. I'm going to give you a classic quote from Caddyshack. If you want to catch a varmint, you've got to think like a varmint.

This guy was so obsessed with this house and these girls. Back to you, Chris McDonough. Can't you see him trying to get closer and closer and closer to the interior of that home? Absolutely. And look what he used to do in the bars where he would project himself as some ladies man. And of course, you know, the radar would go up with the women. It was like, you know, this guy is just an oddball here. I could see him trying to blend in as a chameleon into the college environment.

Now, would he fit? No, of course not. But his ego will not stop him from trying. I'm trying to take in everything you guys are saying. From J.Y.L., what do you think about the fact he told the defense attorney in Pennsylvania, hello police again, that he was, quote, eager to be exonerated. Hey, Jackie, could you play the sound of the lawyer to answer J.Y.L.'s question? I want to examine that. The sound that we talked about where the lawyer is stating verbatim what Koeberger told him. Let's hear that, Jack. Thanks. Jason Labar says he first met his client at the Monroe County Correctional Facility.

Ordinary, average type guy. He says the first thing he said to the suspect was don't tell me anything about the case. Don't tell me any facts. That's information for your Idaho attorney. He was very calm. He was aware of what was going on. He was aware of the murders. He says his client was intentional about what was said on his behalf in the statement to the public. The statement that was written was written by myself in my office, but the exonerated, the eager to be exonerated was his. He specifically said eager to be exonerated rather than he was innocent or something like that. Did you hear his words, Koberger's words through his lawyer? I'm eager to be exonerated.

As opposed to, I didn't do this. I had nothing to do with this. I'm eager to be exonerated. What do you make of that, guys? Let's go to our shrink, Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist out of Atlanta. What do you make of that wording? It's like he lives above the fray. It's like he's got some sort of grandiosity to him. And I'll, you know, I'll tell y'all something. He, he, I know that we're trying to say that

somehow he was attached to these girls that he killed. I don't see that there was an attachment that he had. It was a, it was something that he wanted to carry out. It's like an experiment, Dr. Angie. It's like one of his freaky experiments, like those questionnaires he would send to felons. He has no remorse about it. This is an action that he wanted to carry out. If psychopaths don't have any strong inhibitions about physically injuring other people, then I can promise you they don't have any inhibitions about walking into a party house and trying to make themselves comfortable in there. They think differently than other people do. And I know that is very hard to understand. But this man is a psychopath all day long, and he thinks differently

than we do, and that's why it's hard for us to pinpoint exactly how he was thinking through all of this. Here's a question from Corey. How dark is the surrounding area near the house at night? Corey, it's pitch black. It is pitch black, and inside, hey Sidney, is that bottom, guys, is that bottom light on the right on the home still turned on? Because when we drove up in the dark this morning, we were really early getting here. And do you know Nancy down at the bottom? The light is on on the bottom right. It was on this morning. It's not on.

It doesn't look like it's on now, but I know nobody's going in that house. But it was on this morning. It appears to be off now. Hold on, Chris McDonough. I think that was you. Can I tell you, it's so dark, Corey, that when the inside of the home is lit up, you can see everything. I tried to take pictures of it and post so everybody could see, but it's like you're watching a movie where you're in the dark and the movie's in the light. That's how the dark works around this home. It seems as if it illuminates the inside of the home.

That's from Corey. Go ahead, Chris. Nancy, right where you're standing there, the apartment complex, you know, up at the top, up there, that light, that was not working the night of the incident. That light was out. So it would have been even darker. It was darker.

And another thing to Corey who sent me this question, I was sitting right here last night, and I can look across the street. It's so tight here. The streets are so narrow. This must be a really old area of town because the apartments look very old. I can sit right here and look, and I can tell you what kind of soda can they have on their ledge right there. I can see what the guy was cooking for dinner right in that window. And I just wonder, another person asked, how long had he been watching and stalking the girls? Did you catch in the probable cause affidavit David Leroy? David Leroy, joining me, a high-profile lawyer out of Boise, Idaho.

This is his neck of the woods. The cop said at least 12 times we've got him at the murder house. Well, that certainly would be no accident. You don't show up at that particular locale without an intent to be in the neighborhood. And if that's the case and if it's visible as indicated, obviously many things were seen and many things were available to be seen. The at least caught my attention, Cheryl McCollum, which tells me that he was here many, many more times than 12. They only gave enough in that affidavit to arrest him. They have got so much more information on him, so much more evidence on him.

I think it's going to be mind boggling. But Nancy, let me finish my point about the party, please. So your listener can hear this. The reason I mentioned that about Caroline, he would have stuck out to her. The two surviving roommates and any other person at that party now have his face. They would have already told law enforcement he'd been in the house. So again, they're going to already know that because he would have stuck out like a 30-year-old dude, not doing a keg stand, not drinking mystery shots, and not dancing. Which makes me think he may not have ever entered the home.

But I guarantee you, Cheryl, he got as close as he could, even maybe up on the porch to where that sliding glass door. And there are two sliding glass doors. There's one on the side and one in the back. Oh, here's another thing I've learned. You know, in the beginning, we were speculating that from this angle on the street, you see that entrance only. Only when you come around to the side do you see the sliding glass door entrance on the second floor. And there's another on the back.

We were completely wrong. There's no way you can look at this house, even from the front, and not know that there are entrances elsewhere. Because when you come up on the house. When you drive up on it. You can see the side. So you see the side before you see the front. So you would see the other entrances. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Another question. People are wondering, let's go to A, why the call from roommate to 911 state it was an unconscious person?

Clearly it was a bloody scene. There is speculation that one of the roommates passed out and wouldn't wake up. I find that to be too coincidental. I think that they call 911 about the dead bodies. What do you think, guys? I agree. If we take into consideration the roommate who witnessed the perpetrator, her room is directly below where Kaylee and Madison, where their lives were taken. So she had to have heard a lot of information going down, which put her at, well, I find the phrasing in the affidavit where the investigator says the frozen state. And so there's a variety of other things taking place here in her statement that we're just not privy to at this point. And so that wouldn't surprise me that that trauma took over. And she either froze, you know, for quite some time because that suspect, not only was she listening to what was going on,

she heard him, she saw him. And then at this point, that really must have played a major role in her psyche in relationship to her being potentially taken as well. I also heard a speculation that that was simply a, and in the very early initial dispatch category that was entered into the record when somebody called in and without any detail, the unconscious person was entered in the logs. I think that's just as logical as somebody not fully describing what they did see. Guys, here's some more questions. Here's Jackson on Twitter. I'd like to see how far the house is from the school.

And on the reporting, we see the house and the town. How close is the school from home? Guys, is the Sigmund K. house on school property? No, it's just off, actually. It's off. Well, I would say that we're only maybe two blocks from where the school starts max. And that's as the crow flies. Because I'm looking over, I can see campus from here. That's correct. That ridge up there, Sid, isn't that campus? Yeah, I see everybody going to class from here and people are going down this stretch right here going to and from class as we're talking so it's really really close again the streets are so tight

there's no way if there had been surveillance video cams here that they would not have caught the car uh okay here's here's one the anyway, he was aware his son was involved, especially after the FBI was looking for a white car. If the dad did not know that Ellie was looking for a white Elantra, he would probably be the only one in the country that didn't know. And then he goes and gets his son in Pullman, 10 minutes from the murder scene, and drives him home? I mean, how could he not know? Nancy, I think there's a couple things to point out about Dad. Was he sent there in recent days to drive back with him, or was that something planned before the murders?

I'd like to know that. Okay, number two. It was long planned. And listen. It was long planned. When he stopped by law enforcement, Dad is answering questions for him to the officer. Is that something he typically does? Yeah, didn't one of them say they were going for Thai food?

Yeah. A kid said it. Who in the hay would say we're going for Thai food on the internet? Instead of just saying I'm driving home for the holidays. That's a lie. Right. His parents also had to know, and this is where patterns come in, how often did he take out the trash? I bet he didn't

never take it out with gloves at 4 a.m right how many times in the freezing cold that he'd clean his car i bet never here's another question guys from the vee how big are the windows could he see uh i guess she's talking about d as in DM, and bedrooms. Maybe lights on, if he was looking from a distance before or after the crime. Oh my goodness, they're big. And they don't have the crisscross panes in them. They're just big, clear, paned windows. What would you say?

They're about four by four windows? Three by four? They're big. They look to be the windows that you slide open horizontally because they're not pained. There's nothing obscuring his vision. Here's from Gina. Everyone's saying Dylan locked eyes with the killer, yet that's not in the PC document. Any idea the killer actually saw her as he was leaving.

I would say a big no to that. That's online rumors that they locked eyes. Nobody has said that except on social media. And I think if the killer actually locked eyes with her or saw her, he would have killed her too. He walked through the room that was totally dark with that neon light shining that said good vibes. And I think amazingly, he walked right by her. Here's the question about how far

the house is from the school. Here's a really good one from Kara. Any unsolved murders in a 60 mile radius from Pullman since this summer? How about 60 miles from his home in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York? What about that? I mean, how likely is it, Dr. Angela Arnold, that he goes from zero to 100 mph on his first try? That he goes into a home and in 16 minutes stabs dead four people and almost gets away with it and of course he's assumed innocent till proven guilty we know that but that does that happen overnight or is this just uh round two or three for him i i believe it's going to be round two or three or ten for him and and i have a feeling we have found a serial killer that has been living amongst us and i shudder to think that what we're

going to discover that he's done i really did what do you think guys anybody else want to jump in on that do you think this is his first time uh i don't i i believe that he's a mass murderer who was in development to become a serial. And I think some of the programs that the feds, you know, the VICAP program, for example, the Violent Information Criminal Apprehension Program, all this data is going to be put into that. And then that will flow into NCIC. And I think at this point, investigators from around the country, if he is a serial, will start doing an investigative analysis and do some comparisons. Yeah, you know, is this Chris McDonough speaking? Chris, I can guarantee you that they have already taken a bugle swab, or some people say a buckle swab, out of his mouth. It's like sticking a Q-tip in there and rubbing it against the inside lining of your mouth. And now they have. You get that

through a search warrant, just like you get a search warrant for a home or a car or a safe deposit box. You get a search warrant for a person, and you can get their blood type. You can get their DNA from the inside of their mouth. You can get pubic hairs. You can get a lot from them. It's considered a search under the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution. Now that they have his DNA, it can be compared to DNA found at crime scenes all across the country, and I can only assume that's happening right now. Here's another question. Get ready, David Leroy. I want to know if any of your legal experts are concerned about the basis for the initial search warrant for his cell's geolocation. And I got to say no, because when they got the arrest warrant, they had to have PC for that, they had to have PC for that,

they also had to have probable cause to get his cell phone records. And what they had at that time is a white Elantra close to the murder scene, and two WSU, Washington State University cops, spotted the white Elantra right there in Pullman, 10 minutes away from the murder scene. And what we didn't know at the time that we learned later is DM had already given her description of a tall, white male with bushy eyebrows, athletic but not muscular. So these two cops at WSU see the Elantra. They connect it back through the college registration to Koberger. So they've got his name and they've got the Elantra and he fits DM's description of the perp. That's more than enough PC to get a search warrant for his cell phone. Would you disagree or agree, David Leroy? Counselor, your argument is very compelling. This has been a by the book in terms of the

investigation and in terms of the logical steps the police have taken. I think you very nicely summarized where that went and likely what the affidavit in support of the search said. Here's another question from Stephanie. I'm curious about the previously reported automatic locks on each of the bedroom doors. How did he get in? Were they propped open? Or were those reports of automatic locks not true? We got the reports of automatic locks on each bedroom door from a previous tenant. I cannot imagine that they

have been removed. However, we don't know whether the doors were propped open to avoid sticking in the code every time they went in and out of the room, which is entirely possible. But Kelly, looking right down behind me, the automatic, the keypad on the door lock is still there I think I noticed it last night but I think it's much more likely he came in through a sliding glass door and that the bedroom doors that he got into were not totally closed that would be my best guess also hold on guys why did they wait so long to arrest him? It seems like they knew it was him. They suspect that it was him or much earlier. Why risk letting him get away or commit another crime? I think because they wanted to stake him out and see what he would do. Like

wash his car inside and out in the early morning hours in the freezing cold outside. Like throw his DNA and trash into the neighbor's receptacle. What do you think, Cheryl McCollum? Why did they take so long? Nancy, I think they were waiting for the DNA to come back. I think that was done so quickly. I think once they got the sample, they got the profile and it matched the trash. I think that's what they were waiting on. Guys, we are still taking all of your questions. Find us on social, on Insta, on Facebook, on Twitter. Let me hear your questions. We'll try to answer them. We are live here in Moscow, just outside the murder scene, and I can tell you right now, the silence and the pall

over this whole area remains. We wait as the evidence unfolds. I'll see you in court tomorrow for that status hearing. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.