Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TRIAL DELAY IN THE MURDER OF NIKKI CHENG

Episode Date: December 27, 2025

A new trial date set for Tyler McCain, the man charged with killing his wife, Nikki Cheng Saelee-McCain.  McCain facing 12 charges and multiple special allegations, including one that he killed his wife to prevent her from testifying against him in court over domestic violence charges.   The jury trial was supposed to start on Nov. 18, but McCain’s lawyer, Michael Borges, asked for more time given the mounds of documentation provided by the prosecution.  Shasta Superior Court Judge Adam B. Ryan set the trial date was set for March 17, 2026.   A trial readiness hearing will be held on March 11, to ensure both parties are prepared for the trial.  As of today, Nikki is still missing and presumed dead.  Redding Police detective Jeremiah Kessinger said Nikki's sister Chloe Saelee texted with Nikki regularly, and there was always a response until May 19th. Family members talked with Nikki on May 18, but on May 19, she never answered a text from Chloe. Nikki told Chloe about domestic violence in the relationship and McCain going so far as to point a gun directly at Nikki and threatening to kill her and her family members.  In court, Detective Maul played an audio recording in court of Nikki McCain describing being assaulted by her husband, Tyler McCain. The recording was done in a hospital emergency room, where Nikki showed up to give the police a statement. Nikki says, "He pushed me on the ground. And he started hitting me. He was just enraged; he was so angry." Nikki estimates the attack lasted three hours.  Tyler McCain has pleaded not guilty to the murder charges. Joining Nancy Grace today: Kaye Ford  - Nikki's sister Chloe Saelee - Nikki's sister Philip Dubé  - Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy; X: PhilipCDube, IG: PhilipDube, YouTube: PhilipDube3922 Dr. Bethany Marshall -  Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker," and featured in hit show "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive Brian Fitzgibbons - VP of Operations for USPA Nationwide Security; Instagram: @uspa_nationwide_security, Kingsman Philanthropic's 2022 rescue missions of women and children in Ukraine, Iraq War Veteranide_security Jeff Gentry – Forensics-Crime Scene Investigator, Certified Bloodstain Pattern Analyst and Death Investigator, Former Toxicology Lab Analyst; Author: “A Visual Guide to Bloodstain Pattern Analysis: Bloodstain Pattern Analysis for Death and Crime Scene Investigators;” TikTok: @jeffreygentryBPA, Facebook: Jeff Gentry Bloodstain Pattern Analyst Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Get started at goaddy.com with GoDaddy Arrow. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Devastated sisters hear grisly facts in the missing Nikki Chang case. Now upgraded to murder. But where's the body? I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Mom's Chevy is found abandoned on a remote country road. Nikki's case is a homicide investigation.

There were several assaults on Nikki. A brutal assault on Nikki prior to her disappearing, prior to her Chevy being found abandoned on a remote country road. She thought she was going to die. Where is Nikki? A brutal assault at the hands of this guy. I'm telling me, my husband, Nikki, I think. First of all, I think the sheriff's office,

getting involved. Any efforts that get my help to my wife home, you know, safety, We miss you. He's kind of fumbling around. Listen to more of that. I don't really know it's safe. I haven't been in the public eyes,

and I haven't done very well with it. I apologize to everyone, especially my children. My wife's family, mine is as well. I'm just here in support, so anything that I can do, I want to do that. I want you to hear this. Nancy, a new trial date said for Tyler McCain, the man charged with killing his wife, Nikki Chang, Salee McCain.

McCain faces 12 charges and multiple special allegations, including one that he killed his wife to prevent her from testifying against him in court over domestic violence charges. The jury trial was supposed to start November 18th, but McCain's lawyer, Michael Borgas asked for more time given the mounds of documentation provided by the prosecution. Shasta Superior Court Judge Adam B. Ryan set the trial date for March 17th, 2026. A trial readiness hearing will be held on March 11th to ensure both parties are ready for the trial. How did we get here? With me, defense attorney Philip DuBay. Here he is pleading for his wife's return. He's like, oh, I'm sorry, I've got my thumb up my rear end. I mean, I don't know

what to say. Well, first of all, it's not as if he had an opportunity to rehearse it. You put the guy in front of a camera as if he's doing a screen test for an Academy Award film. It's ridiculous. The guy was caught off guard. He wasn't told what he was going to be asked. He didn't know what he was going to say. So people often stammer and stutter and have a little word salad. They don't know what, if anything, to say. So to say that that implies guilt, here we go again. Here we, yes, there she goes. The symphony, the rhapsody. And all of a splendor and glory of Philip DeBay trying to explain away a defendant, in this case, a murder suspect. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, try as he might. Philip DeBay cannot explain away.

Why? The husband of the missing mom, who's, she's had all these children by him. He beat her to a pulp before and was about to testify against him when she went missing. He stands up and goes, well, I don't know what to say. His wife is missing, possibly dead. His children don't have a mother. And he doesn't know what to say. You know what?

when John David disappeared in the middle of a big, huge babies or us warehouse, I knew what to say. I screamed, my baby's missing. Lock the doors. I screamed it over and over. It sounded like a siren in my throat. I knew what to say. Nancy, he's unable to say anything because he has the sheriff, the prosecutor, law enforcement standing next to him. And what I mean by this is when he was alone with Nikki, he was quite comfortable being an abuser. He would sit on her back. He would beat her. He put a towel over her face, poured water on it to the point where she felt she was suffocating and couldn't breathe. She had bruises and lacerations on her face. She was afraid of dying. She allegedly had bruises and lacerations on her face. And yet when he's in

front of law enforcement, he's not the big bully that he is at home. So I see with these types of men who are abusive, that they are very powerful when they're alone with a small, fragile woman. But when they're, they come face to face with consequences, they kind of collapse. Let's watch him implode again. I mean, I could just watch this all night. Watch. I don't know what to say? I haven't been in the public eyes. and I've been done very well with it. I apologize to everyone, especially my children,

my wife's family of mine as well. I'm just here in support, so anything that I can do, I want to do that. Apologizing for what? That's certainly a Freudian slip. Apologizing? For what? Did anybody think to ask him that?

Now, you heard, Dr. Bethany Marshall describing a horrible incident of abuse. This is how it started. Wednesday night, around 8.30, Nikki Saly McCain is in her bedroom combing her hair. Her husband of 13 years, Tyler McCain arrives home in a strange mood. For no apparent reason, Tyler McCain aggressively jumps on top of Nikki, holding her on the ground, then dragging her around, yelling, what are you doing? Nikki says Tyler McCain's eyes are glazed over.

Nikki tries calming her husband, but it doesn't work, and he holds her down and be begins hitting her in the face. The terror escalates over a three-hour period with McCain binding Nikki's wrists and ankles together with tape, putting tape over her mouth so she couldn't speak properly. Rolling his wife onto her stomach, Tyler McCain sits on her back, pulling her hair back,

forcefully pulling her head back and telling her he's going to kill her. This is the domestic incident. Why do they even call it domestic incident? It's an aggravated assault, but it doesn't end there. After three hours, of Tyler McCain allegedly beating his wife, the mother of his four children, hitting her about the face and head, blackening her eyes, pulling out her hair and taping her mouth shut.

He leaves her alone and goes into the kitchen. Getting herself loose from the bindings, Nikki grabs a rope, runs outside and gets in her car. Tyler McCain chases Nikki out of the house and jumps onto the hood of the car, telling her to stop. Ignoring his demands, Nikki flees to the safety of her sister's home in Redding. What a psycho! He jumps on her car to stop her from leaving after he's been beating her and terrorizing her and waterboarding her for hours. But this time, Dave Mack, joined us, Crime Stories Investigative reporter. This time is different because she reports the violence. She reports the beatings and they get photos of the beatings.

Nancy, in this particular case, you know, we said she runs to her sister's house in Redding. It's her sister that lovingly says, we've got to take you to the hospital. We've got to get this document. You need help, you know, for these injuries. And so while she's at the hospital, she makes the call. And a police officer arrives. And the detective actually has the foresight and the wherewithal to actually record exactly word for, for word, Nikki Saly McCain describing this horrific attack, how long it took.

It was a 20 minute long interview with her talking. And it's just, it's shocking, Nancy, how she described what she. She had just endured. Okay, now what were you saying, Philip DuBay, about how this is not a screen test in Hollywood? I think I know why he couldn't speak at that presser. All this was rushing through his mind if he has any conscience at all. Or maybe he's like a frog. Have you ever held a frog and looked at it in the face?

It just blinks. It's a cold-blooded creature. No emotions. Is that what's happening? No. He does have an emotionally low IQ. But I don't know why. and I have no actual evidence of this,

but he reminds me of a classic meth addict. It's somebody who flies off the handle after a lengthy fix, and when he's trying to chase the dragon and trying to get another fix, he can't get it so he acts out in a fit of ink and rage. And I have a feeling that this incident, if it's in fact true, was drug-fueled. Put him up.

You know, Dubay, it's amazing how you can do a hairpin turn from, this is no Hollywood. with screen test to he's a meth head. There's no evidence at all that he's a meth head. But I guess you're digging really deep to explain his behavior at the presser. You know what? Technical legal term screw his behavior at the presser. Let's get to the preliminary hearing. First of all, why there's a preliminary hearing? I, it confounds me. me, it's the state's worst nightmare. Typically, in most jurisdictions, the state can do information, just write up on a notepad, what the charges are going to be, or preferably a grand

jury. That takes about five minutes. This preliminary hearing requires the state to put up witnesses to prove PC probable cause for the judge to bind the case over or send it to the correct court. For instance, you wouldn't send a murder case to traffic court. It would go to a felony superior court where only felonies are tried. That's what's happening here. So the defense is getting the first swing at the ball by cross-examining the state's witnesses. That's happening now. Listen. A preliminary hearing to determine if Tyler McCain will go on trial for the murder of his wife, Nikki Chang-Saley-McCain, has brought many witnesses to the stand from family and friends to law enforcement and forensic experts. Judge Thomas Bender will determine if there

is sufficient evidence for Tyler McCain to be tried for the murder of his wife. If the case against him moves forward, it will be the first no-body murder trial in Shasta County history. As of today, Nikki is still missing and presumed dead. Well, brace yourself Shasta County. Other jurisdictions have had plenty of no-body murder cases. So you know what? Get with it or you won't be with it much longer elected district attorney. Joining us now two very special guests who have been to hell and back seeking justice for their sister, Nikki. With us, Kay Ford and Chloe Saly. They have been during excruciating testimony in this preliminary hearing, sisters, thank you for being with us. I've just got to know off the top. How do you go home?

and actually fall asleep after hearing this evidence. Kay Ford, how do you decompress after all of this each day? We've, you know, our spouses have been very supportive. And we're also busy with kids' activities. So a lot of times that's been very helpful to refocus our thoughts a little bit. But it is that once we're laying down, it's taking all the information in is a lot. Now joining us, Brian Fitzgibbons, Director Operations, USPA, nationwide security. Fitzgibbons leads a team of highly specialized investigators who focus and specialize in locating missing people all around the world.

And you can find him at uspacurity.com, former Marine and Iraqi War veteran. Translation, he's seen it all. Fitzgibbons. You know what? Here's a problem. One of the problems with a no body case, as Dubay has pointed out on many occasions. I've seen this trick done in court where in the closing argument, the defense attorney will say, hey, is that the victim coming in the door right now? And they wait to see if the jury turns to look. And if they do, the defense will argue, You see, you're not even convinced she's dead, much less who did it. But don't you think by now, Fitzgibbens, she would have been found?

Absolutely, Nancy. And, you know, this has been well over a year that we've been looking for Nikki. And what I'll tell you is, in this preliminary hearing, the DA has brought forth nine investigators from law enforcement from various disciplines that have methodically laid out the case against Tyler. McCain and the case, forensic case, to prove that there was, in fact, a murder that took place. So these crucial things have happened. On top of that, you have five members of McCain's friends and family that have taken the witness stand, and their stories have contradicted statements that they've made to the police. So I think things are going very well for the district attorney here to get that probable cause from the judge. Writing police detective, Jeremiah

Kessinger says Nikki's sister Chloe Saly texted with Nikki regularly, and there was always a response until May 19th. Family members talk with Nikki on May 18th, but on May 19th, she never answered a text from Chloe. Nikki told Chloe about domestic violence in the relationship and McCain going so far as to point a gun directly at Nikki and threatening to kill her and her family members. Deputy Alisio Brito says he found Nikki's pickup on Highway 36 the night of May 25th. Shockingly, The deputy says there was a strong odor, the smell of death coming from the covered truck bed. The smell of decomposing flesh coming from inside the truck bed is coupled with a swarm of small flies and gnats. Also in the truck bed, a white sheet with blood stains and dark colored

hairs. There are also smears of dried blood in the truck bed and strands of dark hair found underneath a piece of trim. The blood and hair belonged to Nikki Salya McCain. Enduring this preliminary hearing, including grisly testimony, specifically, blood testimony, has been excruciating for Nikki's sisters. Straight back out to Chloe and Kay. Chloe, what has been the most difficult moment in the preliminary hearing? I mean, I don't know if you are at all like me, but my first brush with the law, the first time I had ever been in a courtroom, was at my fiance's murder trial. A lot of it, I still can't remember.

But the parts I do remember, they changed my life forever. And there's no turning back after what happened in court. What has been the most vivid moment in your mind in the courtroom so far? There were actually two incidences. One was when the sheriffs, they played a recording of Nikki's voice about what happened that night. That was really hard to hear because it was just hearing her voice because we weren't able to hear her voice for such a long time.

And then also just the evidence about how much blood was in the back of that truck bed, that hit me really hard because I didn't realize how much blood and then was in the back of that truck. And just, you know, when you think of blood, you automatically think a murder and that they're never coming back again. The amount of blood in the truck, does that indicate to you, Chloe, that that is where she was killed? I believe that shortly after whatever happened to her, whatever they did to her, I think that she was placed in the back of that truck bed to die. To Kay Ford, Nikki's sister also, what has been the most disturbing moment during the preliminary hearing for you? Listening to the evidence technician describe decomposition and the smell and kind of those details. She did such a good job with being so professional and just very scientific with it. But, you know, just thinking of our sister in that state was difficult to hear because, you know, at the end of the day, this hearing has been about decomposition.

of her body potentially. So those details were, you know, just kind of thinking that it's, we're describing our sister. That was pretty grisly for me. There was also evidence regarding the garage floor. What did you learn, Kay, about the garage floor? It sounded like a lot of activity happened when this testimony. about looking like it had been cleaned, also the blue star light being used by the evidence technician indicating that there was blood. They didn't specify if it was animal or human,

but as far as I knew, they weren't butchers and they weren't, you know, they weren't handling animals in the garage. So that to me definitely indicated that it could possibly be a crime scene, and it's not a not a place that I remember them cleaning a lot. So to have that the garage cleaned, it's pretty telling for me. When you refer to they, Kay, who are you talking about? Well, the witness testimony so far have, you know, indicated the people living there, which would be Tyler and maybe someone who helped him. But so far, the cleaning sounds like.

like it had been done by Tyler. I've got a question to Chloe and Kay, first to you, Chloe. Does he even look at you in the courtroom, Chloe? No, he doesn't look. Yeah, yeah. What about it, Kay? Does he even meet your gaze?

No, he, for the most part, has his head down in his hands. And he hardly looks up, even at the witnesses. I did notice there was a witness last week that he had his head up more than he had with any other witnesses. And as well as when they were displaying some pictures of his home, he did look up at the projector screen during those pictures. Other than that, no eye contact with us whatsoever.

Yeah, I'm not at all surprised. It's a whole other thing. If you're not beating someone less powerful than you, much, much smaller, less cunning than you are, When you're actually in court with equals, it's a lot more difficult to be a bully. And now joining a special guest, Jeffrey Gentry, forensic certified bloodstain pattern analyst, senior crime analyst and death investigator, former toxicology lab analyst and author of forensic science, applications to death and crime scene investigations, and specifically

author of Bloodstain pattern analysis. Jeffrey Gentry, I just want you to hear one more fact about the blood pattern. Listen. During a check of Nicky's

avalanche, the vehicle is put up on a lift where investigators discover blood pooled on top of the fuel tank. Further inspection reveals there was so much blood, some of it dripped down

from the fuel tank. On the passenger side of the truck, they found a plastic grocery bag containing a bottle of Southern Comfort Whiskey. Dear Lord, in heaven. This new year swap someday with today.

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Crime Stores with Nancy Grace. That mass quantity of blood, Jeffrey Gentry, can only mean one thing, but any guy on the street knows that. Give me your analysis about what was found in the truck bed and beyond. These are all bad things, Nancy. So when you're working a no-body homicide case, you always have to consider where the blood is found and then also the quantity of blood that is found because these are the things that you're going to want to use as evidence to convince the jury that the person is dead even though there's no body so blood on bed sheets that's always a bad thing you would expect blood to be in bathrooms kitchens or bathroom sinks where blood might normally be found but you don't expect large quantities of blood to be saturated into sheets especially sheets that are tied up and knots that's one of the ways that we have

actually transport bodies from crime scenes is you wrap them up in a sheet, you knotted up, then you put them inside of a body bag. It makes it easier to carry a body. So that is very bad when you're looking at a person being missing and then you're finding blood on the street and then also the quantity of blood that's being poured out of the truck bed. Again, you shouldn't have blood in the back of the truck bed and you should absolutely not have blood in sufficient quantities to pour out a truck. And then they touched on also the smell of decomposition. That's the smell that I've, of course, smell many times. Thousands of death cases. And it's something that you don't forget.

Others are smelling decomposition. Again, that's another piece of evidence to suggest that this person is dead, even though you don't have a bottle. Straight out to Dave Matt, crime stories investigative reporter. I want to go back to what's happening in the preliminary hearing. Tyler McCain, Nikki's abusive husband, had a major outburst where he stands up, starts screaming and cursing. What happened? Well, in court, they showed pictures from the first search of the house of Nikki and Tyler's house. And in that first video shot, you can tell that the house is very messy.

There weren't a lot of pictures hanging up. But what he lost it over was the pictures that were shown from the second visit. After Nikki has been reported missing and the police go back in. and are searching the home again. This time they find that the home is no longer messy. It's been picked up and cleaned. It has been staged with family photos now hanging on the walls. That's where he lost it, Nancy, because they were pointing out that,

hey, man, when we came here the first time, right after she was reported missing, none of this was going on. This place was trash. But now look at it. After she's gone, there's pictures hanging on the walls. So that's why he lost it. You stated, Chloe, that for a large portion of the hearing, he would sit or he sits with his head down, looking down. But isn't it true he had a major outburst yelling and cursing?

Yes, he did. It was when Kay mentioned. It was when it was pictures of his house. And the evidence technician, she had mentioned that how the house had looked different from the first raid versus the second. raid and she just noticed that was unusual because when they went back the second time for the raid they noticed that the living room was um it was all cleaned up it was very nice and neat and put together and there were family photos hung up and um she just said she found that kind of unusual and tyler um he said a cuss word and he said that she doesn't understand why he's there

okay i believe his exact words are along the lines of i don't even know why i'm even here this is bullshit. This is bullshit. This is him standing up and yelling and the judge had to call for a recess so his lawyer could calm him down. I mean, Kay, if he would act like that in open court in front of a judge, what would he do when he is alone with Nikki? Yeah, the outburst is pretty telling. And it wasn't, I mean, maybe the family pictures were triggering, but it was pretty telling because he had been keeping his composure pretty well throughout the hearings. So that outburst was definitely a surprise. And it was, like Chloe said, it was comparisons from the first search or raid compared to the one they went to about nine, ten months later.

And she commented, the evidence technician commented on what a difference it was. The home was in disarray previously. And then when she came back, it was, like Chloe said, nice and tidy with family pictures all over the walls. and, yeah, his outburst was asking what was wrong with having pictures of his family on the wall, and then what you had said. You know, I'm very curious. Brian Fitzgibbons, I agree with you. I mean, you're the expert in missing people cases. But at this point with so many people looking for Nikki combined with all the blood found in that truck, she's dead.

Yeah, connected dots here, right? We have a tremendous amount of forensic analysis that's been done on this vehicle, as testified by, you know, various members of law enforcement. That's undoubtedly what led Shasta County just about a couple months ago to make the pronouncement that they believe that this is now a murder case. So, you know, I think that there's sufficient evidence here to say that. I want to talk about the DNA evidence. It's my understanding that, and Dave Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, that the sheet found in the bed of the truck covered in blood indicated by looking at the sheet that three of the four corners had been tied in a knot. I would argue, and Jeff Gentry to you, that the hitched people, McCain got to help him get rid of. rid of the evidence, each one took a corner of the sheet because DNA from three separate

people are in each corner of the sheet where the knots have been tied. How does that work, Jeffrey? That's exactly what you want to look at is where is the DNA out on these sheets and who was involved? So if you have a knot on every single corner, that would absolutely suggest that there were multiple people involved, that there were multiple people carrying this. body. As I mentioned before, when you are carrying bodies, it's not easy. I've carried a ton of bodies before. And you grab a corner of the sheet and you transport them to where they need to go.

And at that time, you're transferring DNA evidence to that sheet. Usually, of course, I'm wearing gloves at a scene, but these people most likely were not. And then if you're sweating and you're doing something active, there's more of a chance that you're going to transfer DNA to whatever you're touching. Straight out to Chloe and Kay. Can either of you tell me about the testimony of Luis Baraha? Yeah, Luis, he started his testimony. We only heard a little bit of it, but he had been, he had an ongoing relationship with Nikki, and it sounds like it went back as far as about a year or so before she went missing. And he very, very calm, very, um, seems like a very nice gentleman. He said they had met at his place of work, which was at a cell phone store. And they become friends. He

helped them with their, with their cell phone service. And I think he noticed, um, I think he kind of noticed Nikki needed help. And I think he, I think he felt bad for her. Um, And I think in that with how calm his demeanor was, with how comforting he seemed, I could see how Nikki felt like this was someone she could turn to when she needed it. There is also Justin Corrin. What do we know about Justin's testimony? I felt like he was very nervous. I feel like maybe he might have known more than he was letting on. But I definitely, I hope. that he was being honest, but I feel like he wasn't being as honest as I feel like he does no more. Justin Karen lived in a trailer on the property. That means he's got to have some connection with McCain. Also, they played a video of him talking to police. And in it, in this video that was played in court, Karen says that he was asked by McCain a few days after Nikki goes missing

to help disappear the Chevy Avalanche and whatever was inside of it. And they pointed out that Tyler McCain is letting him live on the property for free. Then he starts crying in the video when cops press him for information, saying his mom lived with him. He didn't have anywhere to go if something happened to him. I mean, that's what it sounds like. i don't know if that's true but i'd like you to describe that what happened it sounded like mr karen is kind of in a um dependent situation with tyler he lives on the property and it does sound like he is pretty much living rent-free um you know and he he was kind of a right-hand man

for tyler he helped around the house on the property fix cars um whatever tyler needed um and it does sound like without tyler's um I guess graciousness to let him live there, he would essentially be homeless and have nowhere to park his trailer. And he did mention his mom is not doing well. And his mom is pretty dependent on him to, you know, provide a place to live. And he does take care of him. So, you know, it sounds like Mr. Karen, unfortunately, was just pushing the corner. I mean, he's, when you're dependent on someone, it's hard to say no when they, when they need your help. I understand. I understand that but getting rid of a dead body is a whole other can of worms okay that's more than just

helping a friend that is obstruction of justice tampering with the body and could be a whole lot more I'd be crying too let's go on to Felicia Nelson that is the girlfriend right they're no longer together but he they were dating at the time what did she say what was her testimony. She did testify that on the night of May 17th into the early morning hours of the 18th. She did hear some movement in the back of the house on the back porch, which is where the master bedroom exits. And that's also where Nikki had parked her car closer to the back the back master bedroom door. She said during those hours, she did hear some movement and including a thud towards the back porch of the house in the rear of the truck.

And that to me sounded like the bed area of the truck. Now, I want to clarify, Felicia Nelson is Justin Karen's girlfriend, not Tyler McCain's girlfriend. And she also testified she was in the trailer and Justin Karen's trailer, and it was not part very far from the McCain home at all. and she heard noises coming from where the avalanche was parked. She later described a thud heard in the early morning hours May 18. May 18 is the day Nikki goes missing.

So that's very critical. Was Tyler McCain's defense attorney cross-examining all the witnesses? Yes, he was. Yes. And how did that pay? out. He was, I feel like he was strategic. He did try to poke holes in some of their testimony or, or, or, and I, I don't know the correct terminology, but almost sometimes, you know, someone said it was 10 minutes. He might say, could, you know, do you mean 15 minutes? Because you had said 15 minutes before. Things like that to kind of confuse the person and make them feel, you know, like maybe they didn't remember correctly. But yeah, it's. It's pretty crafty as far as, you know, the cross and clarifying specific things that they had testified to. Now, another point of Justin Kieran's testimony that I found really interesting is that he stated he found Nikki's driver's license and credit cards on Tyler McCain's back porch and that he gave them to Tyler McCain.

And at the time he gave them to Tyler McCain, they were not burned or destroyed in any way. They were then later, the driver's license was later found, burned in Tyler McCain's wallet. Isn't that true? Yes. What can you tell me about items found in Tyler McCain's mother's home? There was a white comforter in their detached garage that had a lot of burn marks on it. And then there was also a darker colored sweater that also appeared to be burned as well. Did either of you recognize the sweater?

Did it belong to Nikki? It was hard to tell because it wasn't a pile. It looked denim-like to me, but it could have just been, you know, the thread material. But I did not specifically recognize the sweater. But Nikki had a lot of clothes. So I wouldn't recognize every piece that she had anyway. And there was also a note that was found to... Tell me about the note.

Okay, do you have it written down? Oh, it was in a bin. It was in a bin that was in Jeanette's garage. It was on a pink post-it note. And the odd thing is, throughout the search, they had found numerous just notes lying around Nikki and Tyler's home. And this note happened to be in Jeanette's garage. And it read, remember that feeling when you could be Jesus for a day on drugs.

Who wrote that? It looked like it could have been. Tyler's handwriting, but they didn't, they didn't, they didn't say. How did you guys endure the testimony about the discovery of the truck and what was found in the truck bed? That was probably, yeah, one of the toughest things for me. I just remember I had my fiancé sitting next to me. I just remember like clutching onto his hand because it was just.

It was just a lot. The deputy stated under oath, there was a strong odor, the smell of decomposition. Decomposing flesh coming from the truck bed. There was a swarm of flies and gnats. Also a white sheet with blood stains and dark colored hair. And Nikki had beautiful, long, dark hair. There are smears of dried blood in the truck bed. And there is dark hair found under a piece on the trim on the outside of the truck.

It has been definitively proven that the blood and the hair belong to your sister, Nikki. And my final question to you, Kay Ford, when you hear this technical evidence about blood and hair and a comparison, a lab comparison, proving that it's Nicky's. Do you let your mind go to how that blood got there and how her hair ended up in the trim of the truck? So it's, like I said, it's just grisly to think that that's what happened to her, you know, to even kind of imagine. It's, yeah, it's difficult.

Specifically about Luis, Philip DeBay, the witness, now he's saying he had a romantic relationship with Nikki Chang. I guess he is saying that now that his DNA is on the sheet, right? He's saying that is from an earlier romantic encounter. But does he not understand? The crime lab can determine sweat versus touch DNA versus spurts. term, right? So if his DNA is over in one of those knots tied, he's going to be proven to be a liar, Debe. Exactly. And that points immediately to third party culpability. And in California, in order to get that defense, you have to have more than just motive means and opportunity for

someone else to have committed the crime. There has to be some other independent evidence linking that third party to the crime. And here, if you have biological evidence at the scene where the death reportedly occurred, that is enough to get that third party culpability instruction. And particularly at a preliminary hearing, that is enough to show the court that the death was at the hands of somebody other than the defendant. The other problem I think the case has, so far we're not hearing that there was an unsurvivable loss of blood. I find this really hard to believe, Dr. Bethany Marshall, now, that Nikki Chang is gone. Now suddenly we're hearing about a sex affair. Is that just to conveniently

explain away why his DNA is on the sheet used to transport her dead body? Nancy, abuse victims do not have affairs. They're terrified to even smile at somebody in public. If the abuser is looking at them, the abuser questions, where did you have lunch? Did you talk to somebody? What did you say about them. Abusers are pathologically jealous. So, no, I have a hard time believing that she would have risked her life by having an affair. I'm a husband, Nikki, I think. First of all, I would like to thank the Sheriff's Office, getting involved. Any efforts that get my help, my wife home, You miss you. New Year's resolution.

Own how you show up online. It's easy with a domain and matching email from GoDaddy. Now just 99 cents per month for new customers their first year. Ring in 2026 with a domain and matching email at goaddy.com slash new year. That's goaddy.com slash new year to own how to own how. how you show up online. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Ripley says it wouldn't start.

McCain put diesel in the gas-powered truck, and it had rolled down a gradual slope. Ripley says Justin Karen asked McCain if there was anything in the truck that needed to disappear, and did the truck need to disappear? Both times, McCain answered yes. The defense asked Ripley if he was offered amnesty for his testimony. testimony. Ripley said he didn't need it because he hadn't done anything wrong. Ripley says he met with his nephew later that evening at his trailer on McCain's property and told him he wanted

nothing to do with whatever was going on. He didn't know until the next day the avalanche was reported missing until he saw it on the news the next day. Philip Dubay, defense attorney, how can the defense possibly fight back against Ripley's testimony? Ripley says he asked the husband, McCain, is there anything in the truck we need to get rid of? And McCain says, yes. And he says, do we need to get rid of the truck? And McCain says, yes. What do you do with that?

That's just like somebody dropped a bomb in your lap. Well, that presupposes that you believe the witness. In order for that to have any merit or any weight, you have to find that the testimony is credible. And what do we know that you had other people who were intimate with her? And I find it astonishing to suggest that it could have only, been Mr. McCain. Normally, if there were past relations, you wander the linens. But the fact that there is fresh DNA from other people on that sheet, I don't care what anybody says when they're

on the stand. The forensics are the best I witness. DeBay, the DNA is in the corners of the edges of the sheet. They're clearly, Dave Mack, where the sheet has been nodded to help carry Nikki's body. Explain the DNA found on the sheets, Dave Mac. Nancy, when they got that sheet out and they were examining each of those corners, as you mentioned, there are three knots in this sheet. In the corners, they've got separate DNA profiles from different individuals in those knots. They're not all the same. So you've got three different people leaving their DNA on the knots. that are tied in the sheep that also has Nikki Saly McCain's blood and hair.

So, and of course, we've got her husband, his is all over it, and then we've got the other gentleman mentioned. So it's the knots that were tied by these individuals in the sheep. By the way, it was found in the back of her truck that was sitting on the side of the road with a cover over the trunk bed. Okay, Jeffrey Gentry, blood spatter analyst. You would have a field date with that. And did you hear Debeye trying to tune up in state that there wasn't enough blood to prove she's dead?

One, there shouldn't be blood in the back of a truck bed. There shouldn't be blood all over a sheet. And then there definitely should not be enough blood in body fluids that leak out of a truck. That is very concerning. And if you're going to suggest that a person is not dead after finding all of that, you're absolutely wrong. Question to you, Brian Fitzgibbon's, the sisters have been through hell sitting through this preliminary hearing. Isn't it true, Brian, that family members want desperately to believe their loved one is out there and they can and will be found? How do you break that to someone that they're never going to be found?

Yeah, there's no easy way to begin that conversation when this forensic evidence and the witness statements, by the way, lead us to believe that their loved one is indeed. deceased. And, you know, this has got to be just a horrific experience through this preliminary hearing for Nikki's family to sit through listening to all this evidence brought before them. Chloe, I mean, I don't know how you guys are enduring it. I mean, I only sat through a very short portion that when I testified at my fiancé's murder trial. I didn't hear the rest. I don't know how you're doing it. How are you sitting there listening to testimony about Nikki's hair and blood. It's definitely difficult. I just remember I have to do this. I have to say this because I have to be strong for Nikki's kids because I want to know what happened and I want to know what

they did to her. Joining me, Kay Ford and Chloe Saley, as difficult, as horrible as it is for them, they are enduring, gut-wrenching and graphic testimony in court and they are representing their sister, Nikki, and it ain't over yet. Nikki Sisters, thank you for being with us. We wait as justice unfolds, and now we remember an American hero. Officer Hunter Semantzik, Kansas City PD, killed in the line of duty at age 26, leaving behind heartbroken parents Ron and Christine. American hero. We honor Officer Hunter Simonsic. Thank you to our guests, especially

sisters Kay and Chloe. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This new year swap someday with today. You've already got the idea, so make it real in 26 with a pro-level website. GoDaddy makes it easy with the lowest-priced website builder, guaranteed. Ready to build a confetti-ready site in minutes? New customers start for free at go-dadi.com.

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