Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Turn out the Lights, The Trial is Over

Episode Date: March 4, 2023

Alex Murdaugh's murder trial is over. After six weeks of day-long testimony, the disgraced attorney has been convicted and sentenced to life in prison for murdering his wife and son. So what's next?   Not just for Murdaugh, but the attorneys, the cops and courtroom staff.  Listen to Nancy Grace's ride-a-long conversation with longtime friend and fellow attorney Renee Rockwell as they discuss how trials of this magnitude affect everyone involved, and what happens when opposing opinions remain.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Thanks for being with us. With me is my longtime friend and colleague, defense attorney Renee Rockwell, who is known as the queen of dope I don't know that I would like that name Renee but sadly that is your moniker the queen of dope not that you ever used it but you sure represent a lot of dope clients Renee let me tell you where I am I'm in the minivan and I am driving at home it's about a five-hour drive from the Colleton

County Courthouse where the verdict against Alex Murdoch has just been handed down and sentencing. A whopping two life sentences to run consecutively, Renee. I hate a without parole sentence. Boo hoo. You know what? I think he should get out of jail when Maggie and Paul can get out of their coffins. When do you think that will be? Anytime soon?

Well, I have my thoughts about the whole case and whether or not I felt like he did it or not. But that's not the top. The jury's already handed down their verdict, and he placed himself at the scene of the crime two minutes before the shooting because his voice was caught on a video Paul was making, a video of a pet dog to send to a lady vet. But I want to talk to you about something other than the jury verdict because the jury's rendered their verdict that feeling after you finish the trial because I can tell you the lead lawyer

Creighton Waters lost 15 pounds during the trial. He was pale, gaunt, shadows under his eyes. I mean, it takes a toll, Renee. It does. And Nancy, do you ever recall getting anything else done while you're on trial, even while you were waiting for the jury? You don't turn your attention to anything else it's almost like you you're sending energy to the jurors I couldn't get a thing done I would let the old go by everything would pile up I remember after one trial Renee leaving the courtroom going back across the bridge to the courthouse where my office was and I went in my office and the the whole time I was on trial the records room had been bringing new cases to my office and putting them on my desk this huge stack of about I don't know 70 new cases had been had fallen over on my desk like an accordion and had gone down the side of the desk.

And I had left a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts in there the morning that I left to go start the trial, which lasted about three weeks. And I mean, it looked like, you know, a cyclone had hit my office because I never went back during the trial and did you did you get anything done even while the jury was out could you even move barely from the courtroom or the bench outside no i'd be too nervous when i first started trying cases i tried to actually sit really close to the jury room and see at least I could hear them fighting or you know voices raised and then one time I heard them arguing and I got so upset and I said to the bailiff what is happening I can hear arguments in their raised voices you said they're just getting their lunch

order I never listened. I never tried to listen. That was it. I got so upset. And, you know, a defense attorney loves a jury that's arguing with each other. Loves that. Maybe they'll hang. Nancy, and I recall you after trials, you would always go in.

You loved to collect the notes that were left behind, thrown away, the juror notes. You could tell from those notes what they thought was important. Another thing you taught me, Nancy, was after a trial, going to the jurors, the ones that would stay and talk to you. They were just about sick of us by the time the case was over. But you always wanted to talk to a juror about what did you love? What did you hate? What did we miss you on? What was important? What was not important? Help us. Help us learn how to clean it up, tighten it up. You never know when you're going to try the case again even if it's a bitter pill to swallow you know you can hear that and do better the next time but you know what I'm thinking about right now Renee

this is beautiful country I gotta tell you something Colleton County is really pretty and where we cover the I almost said where we tried the case, was there in the Colton County Courthouse in Walterborough, South Carolina. Renee, it's beautiful. The weather is like, you know, have you ever got into a bathtub? It's not hot and it's not cold. It's just perfect. That is way walk to burrow field it's really a nice little town did you go by the any any parts of the sites that were mentioned in the in the trial did you go by because I know you love to do that you like you know I mean You know I snuck into every location that was mentioned. Everywhere I tried to go look at it or did go look at it,

I tried to get in or did get in. It was some really pretty country. But what is striking me right now, my little red light, and the whole town, there is a McDonald's and a Sprint gas station on my left a Baptist Church of course um both on my right and an income tax service one red light oh wait no it's not it's not a Baptist Church of Christ Beach Island and that's it that is it oh there's a welding shop there are a lot of little kind of out oh and a dollar tree it's a

whole thing and people from all around the area are typically called for jury duty but I'm looking at how beautiful it is, Renee, and just thinking, what an idiot Murdoch is to give up his beautiful wife, his children. They had three homes, and I'm telling you, Moselle, that country is just beautiful. Tall pine trees, just far as I can see. And let's see, it says it's 81 degrees outside. He's never going to be free

driving down the road like I am right now. It's never again, Renee. Well, not with a life without parole, consecutive life without parole. And, Nancy, I don't like a without parole sentence, and prosecutors should not like those types of sentences either. I do. Well, those are the kind of sentences. He's 54 years old, so life with parole, parole possibility of parole he's never getting out likely but without parole an inmate has no reason to follow the rules an inmate has no reason to walk the line renee why do you say things like that i mean i'm just curious like this guy is

going to follow the rules he's stolen at least $9 million from his clients. Some of them quadriplegic, colon cancer victims that are dying, people that are left with nothing. He stole from them. Was that following the rules? He cheated on his wife. Was that following the rules? He killed Paul and Maggie. Was that following the rules? He killed Paul and Maggie. Was that following the rules? He's not going to follow the rules. No way. I don't even know why you said that.

I just said that, Nancy, because when you see an inmate that has no reason to behave, they tend to get in a lot of trouble while in jail. And you still want inmates. Don't care. I'll leave that to the warden. I'm going to let the warden do his or her job, and I'm going to do my job, and let the prosecution do their job,

and life without the possibility of parole is really light when you compare it to a possible death penalty sentence he could have gotten in South Carolina. You know what? I was trying to tell you how beautiful this country is here in South Carolina. I've never really been through it very much. And what an idiot Murdoch must have been to give up everything in that one moment of anger. He lost all this, and you're talking to me about life without parole okay go ahead so so Nancy I do have my feelings as I told you about life sentences when there's no possibility of parole if

that's what you want to talk about but across the board why are people such idiots do they not think about anything did he really think he could get away and he's given up his whole life and there's no more maggie there's no more family it's all over there you go and he's on his way to the pokey now but nancy i was talking to a prosecutor this morning in Fulton County who said, you know what? I don't know if he really did it or not. Did I ask you what somebody I don't even know thinks? They weren't in the courtroom. I mean, Renee, okay, I say I'm going to have to go through the evidence with you. Nothing will do. Nothing will do. Let me go through the evidence with you. Renee, so this is what happened. Before I get lost, let me see here. Is this where I'm

turning? Yes, this is where I'm turning. Renee, the night of the murders. Maggie, Paul, and Murdoch. First of all, he lured Maggie to the hunting lodge by telling her that his father, Mr. Randolph, was going to pass away. And they needed to go visit him. She did not want to go. She was at the beach house in Edisto. He didn't want to come back. They weren't living together, to my understanding, but he guilted her into it. I'd like to point out they never did go see Mr. Randolph. That was a big fat lie. So they're out

there at this kennel trying to take a video of a dog. And it's a video to send to a lady vet, so the lady vet can look at the dog and see what, if anything, is wrong with its tail. So that's a scenario. It's at night, getting close to 9 o'clock, and the son, Paul, is taking this video, and in the background, you hear his mother talking, and you hear Murdoch talking. Well, for the next, wait, no, no, I don't want to get ahead of myself. So then he claims he goes to see his mom about 20 minutes away, who has advanced Alzheimer's, and he's there for 20 minutes.

He gets back in the car, his Suburban, and drives 80 MPH on this dark road, no lights. I drove them myself. I don't know how he drove that fast. I've passed literally at least 40 deer in packs, and I don't even know how many possums crawled out in front of me when I was driving at night no light at all he drove 80 mph got back and within 20 seconds calls 9-1-1 he tells 9-1-1 that he did not see his family for four had not seen them for nearly two hours and they asked him when did you see them he said at supper he lied about the critical moment at the kennel because right after that video it's been proven the murders occurred I mean immediately after that video and again Paul was shot now who other than the killer Renee, would know to lie about that critical five-minute juncture. Why lie to 911?

When all you have to do is press reset, replay, rewind, and they can hear it again over and over and over again, especially comparing it with another tape recording, or at least audio of them talking in the background. Times are critical. 2023, Nancy, you can just hit the replay button. And the thing is, he didn't know his voice was caught on the video. He was not pictured in the video.

But Renee, they had multiple friends of the family's law partners say, even I think his brother said, that is Alex Murdoch on that video. And that was at about, I'm talking off the top of my head because I'm driving, but that was about 8.49-ish, and they believed the murders happened within the next two or three minutes. So to find him not guilty, you'd have to believe that he left, and the next two or three minutes, someone came in, got two of the Murdoch family weapons, because the murder weapons belonged to the Murdochs, and they proved that beyond even a shadow of a doubt through ballistics.

Came in, ran in behind Alex Murdoch, found two guns, shot Paul and Maggie, put the dogs back in their cages in the kennel, and then left. I mean, they practically would have had to pass Murdoch on that really long driveway leading out to the main road. So, I mean, it's not even feasible. It's like Scott Peterson, Renee. He placed himself at the scene of the crime at the time of the crime. He's a lawyer. He knows better than to make a statement.

Of course, we're just talking about things that paint individuals into a corner. They say something, and then they're stuck with that statement. Yes, he lied on 911, and he lied to police, and then he was married forever to those lies. And Renee, you know, it went 20-plus months until he got on the stand, and only then did he say, okay, yeah, that was me. I lied about it, and this is his excuse, because I did not want to attract scrutiny on myself. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Renee, come on. Have you found your loved one, the one you love the most in the world, dead?

Would you really think about avoiding scrutiny on yourself? I'm not sure, Nancy. That did take 20 months to figure that explanation out. So it didn't work, did it? No, it didn't. But I'm curious about why he insisted on taking the stand. Have you ever had a client that insisted on taking the stand against your advice? Okay, two things, Nancy. Rule number one, you never let your client take the

stand. But what's rule number two? Sometimes the jury wants to hear the defendant say, I did not do it. In this case, I would imagine that he, as a client, not as a lawyer, but as a client, would have been hard to manage. Why? Just because he's an attorney. And you can imagine some of the clients over the centuries that might have been hard clients to manage, might have been clients that

did not listen to their attorneys, might have been clients that didn't take the legal advice about taking the stand. And of course, once you're on the stand, your attorney is going to question you and those are going to be the softballs. But when that's over, here comes the heavy hitting. Here comes the dynamite. Here comes the bombs and the bombshells. Yeah, I mean, I have to say, I thought he did a fairly good job on direct examination. And it pains me. Because, I mean, I trusted that Creighton Waters was going to do a good job on cross, and he did. But while Murnaug was up on the stand on direct examination, he did a great job. He was very convincing. But then on cross, he just melted like the Wicked Witch of the West.

He just, like, totally melted. The crying, the nodding, the trying to convince the jury, the getting caught in one lie after the next. It was painful, but it had to be done. Well, there you have it, Nancy. And no matter how long that you have to spend, no matter how much time you spend with your client, how much trial prep, you can go in there and you can put them in these mock rooms that look like jury rooms and look like the stand and look like the jurors. You can even hire jury consultants just to sit there and act like you are in a courtroom

and pay individuals to have those mini trials with you. No matter what you do, you cannot prepare them for the cross-examination. No, I mean, Creighton Waters crossed them for about two days. And they did that with a mock trial. I think they spent a lot of money working this chase up. They had all the defendant's family in the courtroom behind him every day, including his son, his brother. So they were there. I mean, the defense did everything I can think of. The only thing where I believe the defense failed is keeping him off the stand.

And I mean, if the defendant wants to take stand stand, you can't stop him from testifying. No, you can't. And actually, that's his right to testify. And before he takes the stand, a judge will tell every defendant outside the presence of the jury, do you understand, even if he's a lawyer, do you understand what this means when you take the stand you know I think it really of course the jury never found out it had a pair it was only one affair was actually brought up in the courtroom and that was disallowed but you know every addict a man has to find some woman that'll do drugs with him, you know? He, I'm sure, had nothing to do with drugs at all.

She was all about the two boys. A lot was kept out that the jury didn't hear about Murdoch, but all that thievery, stealing from his clients, and a lot of those clients were really bad off, like dying with cancer, having been in horrible car crashes, what was it, quadriplegia? He stole

all their money, all of their recovery, their settlement. He just stole them and would tell the clients, oh, I'm working on it. It's going to happen one of these days. And he was spending all the money on God only knows what. I don't know what he was doing with all that money.

But my question is, have you ever had a client that you told not to take the stand, do it anyway? Yes, and you can only suggest a few times, and you can even bring in friends that are defense attorneys that used to be prosecutors that will start wearing them out after your practice direct. But that is their right, Nancy, and when they get on the stand, it's almost like you can't even help them after you rest on your direct examination. You can't help them. You can knock over a glass of water or something. You can run some distraction in the courtroom, but you can't help the client. It's almost like turning them loose, and then the dogs just attack. And there's not a thing you can do except sit there and see them annihilated across examination.

And you're looking at the jury. You're looking at the jury. Just drinking it in. And their faces and whether or not they're taking notes or if they just cross their arms and then and then the disgust sets in and another thing about all the stealing and the and all the the misuse of funds etc the prosecutors introduced that not to not to to make you want to say okay and now a but and because of this he also murdered his family but no matter what Nancy it it starts out with a very bad taste in the jury's mouth about this defendant well this is the

thing the judge ruled all that evidence out. The defense scored big time. But then one of the lawyers, not the lead attorney, but second chair Griffin, actually opened the door. I could not believe it because you know that kind of evidence typically the judge will rule out because it seemed to be more prejudicial than probative but when when griffin did that i could not believe it he opened the door to the financial crimes and of course the state walked right in and they waited for that the state waited for that. And once you get, once you put all that in front of the jury, well, there you go. Well I mean it proved not only that he was a bad person, but that he would do anything to sustain their, I think, extravagant lifestyle. He would do anything, beg, borrow, and steal to preserve Alex Murdoch and preserve the facade they had going and to just keep it going. He had to keep

stealing and lie about it. And I think that was the thing, the lying, the lying to the jury about everything. I think that was the purpose of that testimony. Well, Nancy, you have to feel sorry for the remaining child. I do. Everybody's gone. So let me ask you something. When you would finish a long jury trial, what do you do? Besides try to get back to normal life,

are you talking directly after the trial? I always run up and see if I can talk to the jurors. Love, love, love. You taught me that, Nancy, besides the jury notes that are discarded. Love to talk to a juror to find out what they liked, what they didn't like, where they needed more explanation. Whether or not they thought it would have been better for somebody to take the stand, not take the stand. You've done it a thousand times too, Nancy. I'm sure you've run into jurors that you've tried cases in front of just in the Atlanta area.

Well, can I tell you, my dentist was one of my jurors. Obviously, not while it was your dentist. No, no. I mean, this is years later. Right. I had a dentist appointment, and I thought the guy looked kind of familiar and the more I thought about it I could just picture him and a tan pullover with a shirt underneath and I got to looking at him and sure enough that way he was

on my jury I think he was on the bank robbery case where I had the dyslexic bank robber. Don't touch the LRAM. This is a Roby. I'm pretty sure that was his case. But I need to ask. I can't remember what case he was on. Yes, I do. I do run into jurors occasionally.

But I remember, and I feel much the same way today, now as a matter of fact that when I would walk out of the courthouse and Breathe in I felt like I had never breathed before it Like you're enforced in this this Complicated chess game and that's all

Consuming and then when you step out it's over it's like you're seeing the world again for the first time and you haven't seen it and however long you've been working on that trial exactly nancy and and to be a prosecutor what a three-ring circus you got to make sure your your victims don't get away, your witnesses are there and ready to go. I mean, you've had cases, Nancy, where I'm sure you've had a victim go eat lunch and then you've had to send your investigators out to bring them back because they went missing. I'll never forget at the first time, they didn't call it this at the time, but it was a child trafficking scene and my girl victim disappeared the night before her testimony. I was up till five o'clock in the morning trying

to find her, but sure enough, my old investigator, Ernest, found her and brought her back to the courthouse. He was afraid, afraid to testify. You know, people have no idea what goes into putting on a trial. And for the state, remember I had Judge Albertson for so long, and there was no slowing down with him. He was the oldest judge in the courthouse, and he wanted to make sure everybody knew he was fit and ready to strike cases.

The minute I would finish one witness, they'd call your next witness. And if you didn't have your next witness ready, then that would be deemed to be the end of your case. You weren't ready to present, then it was over. You better have somebody walking in and getting on that witness stand. Somebody better get up there and put their hand on the Bible and start talking. Pretty much the way it went.

Okay, final thoughts on Alex Murdoch. Get ready for the appeal, Nancy. I can assure you that the defense attorneys, the defense team, knows how to reach each and every one of those jurors because they'll be approaching the juror, maybe getting an affidavit, some reason, some appealable issue, in some way to save their client from spending the rest of his life in jail. Can you explain to people how you can give your all to a defendant and then they jump up and claim ineffective assistance of counsel? Well Nancy, that's expected and the courts sometimes get aggravated, but defense attorneys are the first one to step up and say, yes, you're right, I

was ineffective. I'll give you an affidavit. I was ineffective because I didn't do this, that, this, that, this, that. Sign their names to it and file that out. To help the client. Exactly. Oh, yes. The defense team was out in front of the courthouse today, all wearing their sunglasses, talking about how unfair the trial was, and they vowed to appeal, and second verse, same as the first. Yeah, they're already working on that appeal.

But, Nancy, you'll see a new set of attorneys coming in for the appeal because they will at this point have to talk about how the first defense team messed up in some form or fashion and caused some type of an appealable issue. You know, I was thinking, Renee, the other night when I finished work, I went for a walk around the courthouse and I walked down to the jail and it's surrounded by razor wire that just glittered as the night and the life. And I was thinking about Murdoch being in there and what he was thinking when he did this thing. I'm telling you, and I cannot breathe in this air fast enough to get away from Murdoch and away from the thought of being in jail and away from the crime scene photos of Paul and Maggie.

And all the heartbreak Alex Murdoch rained down on his family. I got to tell you, Renee, you got a stronger stomach than I do. Short enough to prosecute the case. Much less defend these people. But you know what? My hat's off to you. Rene Rockwell, goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.