Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - TWO CHILDREN DEAD IN THEIR BEDS? The Curious Case of 35-year-old Mom, Kimberlee Singler

Episode Date: January 4, 2024

Just after midnight, Kimberlee Singler, 35, calls 911 to report a home break-in. She tells police that two of her children have been murdered. The police response report says Officers found "an adult female and an 11-year-old female who had sustained injuries," as well as a 9-year-old girl and 7-year-old boy who were "deceased at the scene." Singler’s third child, an 11-year-old daughter, was transported to a local hospital for treatment. She's hospitalized for a few days and then released. Singler is also treated for minor injuries. As police investigate the reported burglary, Singler works with officers, giving statements about what happened.  Then police determined the burglary report was unfounded, and presented evidence to obtain a warrant for Singler's arrest, but the mom is nowhere to be found. Since she was not a suspect, Singler was not under surveillance, and by the time she needed to be, she was gone. Police uncover an ongoing legal battle between the mom and her ex-husband Kevin Wentz.  Wentz’s attorneys say their contentious divorce and custody dispute has been going on for over five years.  Just three months ago, Kimberlee Singler filed a request for a temporary protection order in El Paso County. She claims Kevin Wentz waved a knife at her. Wentz denies the allegations. Two months later, in a different jurisdiction, a Larimer County court held a hearing on Singler's emergency motion to restrict parenting time over the same allegations about the knife. The court rescinded the order finding there was no imminent threat from Wentz. The court ordered that the children have additional time with their father, Kevin Wentz, around Thanksgiving and again from December 16 through December 31.  It was arranged for the child exchanges to take place at a police station in Colorado Springs and the Greely Police Station.  When Singler failed to show up with the children, Wentz's attorney filed an emergency motion to law enforcement for assistance to enforce parenting time. The Court granted the motion. Wentz was awarded custody. The Colorado Springs police investigation led to the charges against Kimberlee Singler. On December 26th, investigators established probable cause and obtained an arrest warrant for Kimberlee Singler on multiple charges, including 2 counts – Murder in the First Degree, Class One Felony,  1 count – Criminal Attempt – Murder in the First Degree Child Abuse, and Assault in the First Degree.  Details of the arrest warrant are currently sealed under court order and are expected to be unsealed at a later time. Singler was arrested in London and is fighting her extradition. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Eric Faddis – Partner at Varner Faddis Elite Legal, Former Felony Prosecutor and Current Criminal Defense and Civil Litigation Attorney; Instagram: @e_fad @varnerfaddis; TikTok: @varnerfaddis Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta, GA; Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women; Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University; Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital; Voted “My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022” Irv Brandt – Senior Inspector, US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch; Chief Inspector, DOJ Office of International Affairs, US Embassy Kingston, Jamaica; Author: “SOLO SHOT: CURSE OF THE BLUE STONE” – AVAILABLE ON AMAZON IN JANUARY; ALSO “FLYING SOLO: Top of the World;” Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor  Dr. Eric Eason - Board-certified Forensic Pathologist, Consultant; Instagram: @eric_a_eason, Facebook: Eric August Eason, LinkedIn: Eric Eason, MD   Heather Skold - KRDO13 Anchor and Reporter; FB: HeatherSkoldNC13, IG: Heatherskoldkrdo, X: @HeatherSkold13/@Krdo_13   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Two children dead, murdered in their own home. The mother and a third child attacked and rushed to the hospital? What happened? The curious case of the Colorado murders. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. What happened? Take a listen to our friend Sydney Sumner. Just after midnight, Kimberly Singler, 35, calls 911 to report a home break-in.

She tells police that two of her children have been murdered. The police response report says officers found an adult female and an 11-year-old female who had sustained injuries, as well as a 9-year-old girl and a 7-year-old boy who were deceased at the scene. Singler's third child, the 11-year-old daughter, was transported to a local hospital for treatment. She is hospitalized. Singler is also treated for injuries. As police investigate the reported burglary, Singler works with officers giving statements about what happened. This is what we know right now. Two dead, the third child and the mother rushed to the hospital. Heather Skold is joining us out of Colorado Springs, KRDO 13 anchor and reporter. Heather, thank you so much for being with us. Tell me what happened when that 911 call was made. You're telling me the mother called 911?

That is right. On December 19th at 1229 a.m., a 911 call came in as a burglary. This is to where Singler lives with her three children. This is at the 5300 block of Palomino Ranch Point condos. That's on the east side of Colorado Springs. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a wealthy side of town, but these condos in particular, I would say are very nice for that region. Once officers got there, they discovered that a nine-year-old girl and a seven-year-old boy were dead. An 11-year-old girl was also injured, and 35-year-old Kimberly Singler was also injured.

Describe for me, Heather, if you know. Joining me is Heather Skull from KRDO there in Colorado Springs. Heather, describe for me. I looked very carefully at the condo development. They look really nice. They're two stories. So there is a downstairs entry and many of them have balconies on the second floor and they have little porches and some of them have sliding glass doors on the first door. So do we know yet the point of entry? Yes, no. The point of entry remains a question. That initial burglary call that we

just spoke about came in the early morning hours of December 19th. Officers are writing there to find two dead children, an 11-year-old female, one of the daughters was also injured, and 35-year-old Kimberly Singler was also hurt. So this is my first question. Out to Eric Faddis joining me, high-profile lawyer in the Colorado jurisdiction. You can find him at varnerfaddis.com. Eric, thank you for being with us. The first thing you do is look for, of course, once you attend to the bodies, you try to find how the person got in. Would you agree or disagree? It's exactly right, Nancy. That is the hallmark

of the crime of burglary in most circumstances. So I'm sure police, that was one of the first things on their agenda after attending to the victims, like you mentioned. Now, police begin to investigate. Do we know, Heather, whether the children were found upstairs or downstairs? And again, as you pointed out correctly, 1229 AM, I'm assuming that all three children were attacked in their beds. We don't know the details of what happened inside that condo unit at all. Also to Heather Skoll, joining us, KRDO 13, have we been given a cause of death of the children? Actually, Nancy, we don't have details as to what happened that night. So right now the police are playing it very close to the vest. I want to go to Dr. Angela Arnold

joining me. We're now a psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, when children are killed, very often, and of course there are exceptions to every rule, very often you don't see the child disfigured, such as in a stabbing or a shooting. Has it happened? Yes, it has. Is it typical? No, it is not. And the mode of death is very indicative and tells me a lot about who the killer is. For instance, we know although she was acquitted that top mom Casey Anthony killed her daughter Kelly, two-year-old Kelly. How? Not sure. But we know that Kelly was disposed of in a swampy area about 10 houses away from the Anthony home with her favorite blanket. Now, what cold hearted killer is going to go kill a child in a home and then take the time to dispose of the body with the child in the favorite blanket.

Obviously, the mother, someone that knows the favorite blanket, right? So my point is that rarely do we see the child, the body disfigured as is with stabbing or shooting or bludgeoning. When children are killed normally, they are killed in a, quote, soft kill, if there is any such thing, through asphyxiation, putting a pillow over the child's head. We saw that in the Shanann Watts case. Both of the girls were asphyxiated. We see it with many other cases. In the Top Mom case, the Anthony case, I believe Keely was asphyxiated via duct tape and had very possibly been given some kind of like a cough syrup or Benadryl or some homemade medicine or some homemade substance that would have knocked her out. Do you agree or disagree with that?

I agree with it, Nancy, and it's such, it is such a good point. And what it points out to me is that this is not an act of hatred towards the children. Something else is being accomplished here, but it's not an act of, they want to get, these people want to get rid of the child, but it is not a direct act of anger or hatred or rage towards the actual child. Interesting. Okay. Not rage towards the actual child. Interesting. Okay. Not rage toward the child.

Of course, I'm just a JD, you're the MD, but I completely disagree with that. I think that the rage, for instance, in Top Mom's case, over not being able to have a single life, not be able to be free and wild. Right. That was her anger. And what kept her from that was the child. So that anger was directed at the child. Well, I think the anger, Nancy,

all I'm trying to say is there's anger there, but I know it's very strange, okay? But they still might actually love the child, but the child is a representation of something is in the way of something that they can't have. So they feel like, okay, I'm going to dispose of the child is a representation of something is in the way of something that they can't have. So they feel like, OK, I'm going to dispose of the child. Did you just say they love the child? They could.

OK, let's just cut her mic for a few moments. Jackie, please, Jackie, over here. Cut her mic and give her a few moments to think about what she has said. Heather Skoll, two children dead, a third attack. The mom attacked their They're rushed to the hospital. But there is a lot more leading up to this. So far, we don't know the point of entry. We don't know the COD cause of death, although I would hazard to guess it is a soft killing. Dr. Eric Eason joining us out of the Florida jurisdiction, pathologist, consultant.

Dr. Eason, thank you for being with us. In your experience outside of accident or natural causes, when you're looking at a homicide, in your experience, and you've done thousands of autopsies, what would you say is the leading COD on a child? In my experience, I've had all different kinds of them. I've had a couple of gunshot wounds. I've had some stab wound cases. I had a mother in South Carolina actually take an ax, two or two children. I've had blunt force trauma cases as well.

Um, the asphyxia ones are very tough to prove because, uh, autopsy findings on a child who is smothered, there aren't any, uh, very often. And so, um, a lot of those cases are probably going to end up as undetermined. Wait, you wouldn't be able to find, uh, uh, hemorrhage petechiae in the eye, or if there was a ligature or manual strangulation, you couldn't find, for instance, a breaking or damage to the hyoid bone or fingerprints or some other discoloration around the neck? Well, for strangulation, sure. Like with the manual strangulation or ligature strangulation, those oftentimes do leave marks on the neck and you can see the tiki eye. But I was talking more like a plastic bag over the head, something like that, or just a smothering with a soft pillow. That's not going to leave much of any kind of a mark or any kind of internal autopsy finding that'll prove that it's a smothering. Okay, what about the veins, the tiny, tiny blood vessels in the nasal area and the eyes, as we're saying, particularly, even with asphyxiation, wouldn't those burst or

hemorrhage? Not necessarily, especially with a smothering. Those are going to burst mainly when you have severe pressure on the neck. And with a smothering, like with a pillow or a plastic bag, there's really no pressure on the neck at all that would cause that. That's a really good point, Dr. Eric Eason. So another thing we can try to deduce is that we know the mother and the child, the 11-year-old girl, were rushed to the hospital. Where they stayed in the hospital, they were treated. So how likely would it be Eric Faddis, former felony prosecutor and now criminal defense and civil lawyer, Eric Faddis, I know for instance serial killers can change their MO. Look at Ted Bundy. But if you're going in and you're killing

everybody in the house, how likely is it that you would stab one, shoot one, and strangle one? We know that the mother and the daughter, the 11-year-old daughter, are alive but were injured. So wouldn't you be able to deduce, Eric Faddis, that the same M.O. was used on them as the two dead children? Yes, no. Exactly. You would expect the killer to use either the same weapon or the same violent approach to each potential victim. And that's why there's kind of a mystery here because at least one of these victims,

the 11-year-old child, is still alive. And the mother. So how long? But we know, Eric Faddis, and so far I agree with everything you just said, but we also know that they were kept in the hospital for a period of days. So if they had been asphyxiated to any degree, why did they have to stay overnight? That would be really unusual. They don't have any broken bones. Right.

So that rules out asphyxiation along this line of thinking. What do you think, Eric? I'm with you on that, Nancy. You know, we need to look at, once it's disclosed, the injuries from the two deceased children and compare those with injuries to the 11-year-old child who lived. And the mother. And guys, we're throwing this around the way that we are because this is all of our business. And I want to remind everybody that Aiden Wentz was just seven years old when he was murdered. And you know what popped up on my phone? I have take literally thousands and thousands and thousands of pictures of the twins, my children on the phone. And every day, a little video montage pops up. Should we let Dr. Angie out of time out? Let me open her up. Okay. Dr. Angie, that's one of

my favorite things. And I don't really even know how they're generated. Oh, I know. Every day. I love those. And they put them to music. When they give you a memory. Yes. And there's like a video montage and one popped up today of the twins when they were seven and they look so tiny and they were so tiny. My son's six foot five now. My daughter's five three. Nancy, how did you have a six foot five child? I wonder that every day of my life. My dad was six three and my husband's six four.

Dear Lord. And the rest is all to whole milk, organic, and broccoli. In fact, I make broccoli so often they have a pet name for it, Broggle. Aiden Wentz, seven years old when that little boy was murdered. Ellie, Eliana Wentz, nine. I just gave myself chill bumps because I love the twins so much. And thinking about someone coming in and killing a nine-year-old girl and a seven-year-old boy in their beds, we think, before Christmas of all days. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around that. But let's get back to doing something to help push this case forward. What do we know about leading up to that night, 1229 a.m.?

Take a listen to our friend Dave Mack. As police investigate the deaths of Singler's two young children, they uncovered an ongoing legal battle between the mom and her ex-husband, Kevin Wentz. The couple fought over parenting styles, visitation, custody, and more. Wentz's attorney says the contentious divorce and custody dispute has been going on for over five years. Just three months ago, Kimberly Singler filed a request for a temporary protection order in El Paso County. She claims Kevin Wentz waved a knife at her. Wentz denies the allegations. Two months later, in a different jurisdiction,

a Larimer County court held a hearing on Singler's emergency motion to restrict parenting time over the same allegations about the knife. The court rescinded the order, finding there was no imminent threat from wins. Trying to make sense of what I just heard. Joining me is Heather Skold, KRDO 13 anchor and reporter in Colorado Springs, including this area. Heather, that was a mouthful. But what I take away and regular people talk is that the mother, Kimberly Singler, filed an action against her ex after a long running custody battle. And the way I can make it out is the divorce slash custody battle started when Aiden was two years old. But she claimed he, the husband, to get an order giving her sole guardianship over the children based on the same alleged incident. And that judge said there was no threat from the husband and did not grant her request.

Did I state that accurately? So, yes, it would appear as though the couple was at least had relations in Larimer County, which is on the northern part of Colorado, about three hours away here from Colorado Springs. Okay. When you say they had relations, are you talking about sex relations or contacts that would allow jurisdiction? Contacts. Right. Okay. Go ahead. Correct. So they filed for divorce in 2018, and it was finalized in 2020, but it went through a four-year-long custody battle over these three young children. And you're right in that there were multiple allegations and accusations from Singler to Wentz, the ex-husband, Kevin Wentz.

And most recently, and you referenced this, September 18th, rather, 2023, that's when Wentz had arrived to Singler's apartment home, those condos here in Colorado Springs, to get the kids per that child custody agreement. And that's when Singler accused her ex-husband of calling her disparaging names, pulling a knife out on her. And when Colorado Springs Police arrived to investigate these allegations, Wentz denied ever pulling a knife out on his ex-wife.

Well, did they find a knife? That I'm not sure. I'm very curious, you know, about that allegation number one. The, since we don't know the COD, was it death by knife? So what do we know about that? We're not sure yet. crime stories with nancy grace eric faddis high profile lawyer joining us out of this jurisdiction eric faddis uh one of my very best friends is a defense attorney and she's told me multiple times that she'd rather try defend a killer than get in the middle of a custody and divorce case and having known her for some time

there have been times she didn't even want to walk to her car in the parking deck because the opposing respondent was so angry over the divorce. Afraid to take a shot at her. So when I hear a five-year-long custody battle, that sounds vicious. All these claims about waving a knife, the request denied. Do you agree or disagree? These are highly emotional cases. Oh, I've got to agree with you, Nancy. And, you know, these things, these custody cases can just be a nightmare and a nightmare that doesn't end quickly, at least. This has been going on for five years now. And it really can just, it's so emotionally charged and it escalates over time

in some cases. And it appears here, it may have come to kind of a crescendo that led to this horrendous incident that we're discussing today. And Eric Faddis, I get it. I mean, I get angry when my husband wants to pick the children up and pick up at the end of the day at school. I want to pick him up, much less take him away and I only get them 50 percent of the time. That's not happening. But what do we know about this case? Take a listen to Sydney Sumner. The court ordered that the children have additional time with their father, Kevin Wentz, around Thanksgiving,

and again December 16th through December 31st. The court also ordered Singler to pay fees for Wentz's attorneys and that Wentz be awarded additional time with the children, which was lost due to Singler's allegations. It was arranged for the child exchanges to take place at a police station in Colorado Springs and the Greeley Police Station. When Singler failed to show up with the children, Wentz's attorney filed an emergency motion to law enforcement for assistance to enforce parenting time. The court granted the motion on December 18th with the status conference scheduled for the 20th. Singler was ordered to bring the children to court that day. Okay, wait a minute. December 18. Isn't that Heather Skoll the day before they're found

murdered? Correct. In fact, that emergency motion, which was granted the 18th of December, demanded that she bring the children to Larimer County Court on December 20th. And remember, this goes back to December 16th when she was supposed to drop the kids off at the Stetson Hills Police substation and she was nowhere to be found. She was not there to exchange the children with Wynn. Well, you're right. Take a listen to Rachel Bonilla from Crime Online. Kimberly Singler was days away from losing custody of her children after failing to follow a court order to drop the children off to her ex-husband at the Colorado Springs Police Department at Stetson Hills substation. The next day, Kevin Wentz's attorney asked a Larimer County judge to grant him sole possession of his children since Singler violated their child custody agreement. Singler was contacted by the police but said she was nowhere near the station. That's why she didn't

drop them off. She also sent an email stating she was in Colorado with her three children. Wentz was then granted full-time custody of the children. So the hearing was about him getting full custody because she failed to drop the children off at a neutral location. Is that right, Heather Schold? That is correct. And in fact, she told Colorado Springs police that on December 16th, where she failed to drop those kids off at the police substation, she then responded by saying, I am nowhere near the police station, according to court documents. That's when Wince's attorney reached out to Ms. Singler asking, where are you? She informed them by email that she was in Breckenridge. That's about two and a half hours away from here. Now, how close is her condo from that police

station? I would say, Nancy, that is about a two-minute drive away. Okay, so this is all going down around December 18. On December 19, 1229 a.m., within the same 24-hour period, the children are found dead in their beds. We believe in their beds at 1229 a.m. That 911 call is made. Two children dead, ages 7 and 9. One 11-year-old harmed goes in the hospital. Mommy harmed goes in the hospital. Mommy is released, but then she goes AWOL. It turns out she is 4,000 miles away from their Colorado home in Kensington. I don't mean Kensington, New England.

I mean Kensington as in London, as in the Duke and Duchess of Kensington, that Kensington. Joining me right now, special guest Irv Brandt, Senior Inspector, U.S. Marshal Service, International Investigations Branch, Chief Inspector at DOJ's Office of International Affairs, author of Solo Shot, Curse of the Blue Stone on Amazon and Flying Solo, Top of the World, also on Amazon. Inspired by all of his tracking down people all around the world for the U.S. government. Irv Brandt. I mean, her children are dead in the home. She's in the home at the time they're murdered. She gets taken to the hospital with minor injuries and released. How the hay does this woman leave the country and travel 4,000 miles away to Kensington? Oh, Nancy, unfortunately, easily is how she did it. I'm sure she just went to the airport, if she has a valid passport, probably Denver, and got on a flight to the UK. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense

to me, Dr. Angela Arnold, with two dead children and one child just out of the hospital, you hightail it to the UK. Because Nancy, she knew she was in some trouble. Knew she was in some trouble. I agree with that. And I'll tell you why I agree with that. Not because she is the only adult in the home that she has minor injuries and they're dead, but because of this. Take a listen to our cut two from Rachel Bonilla. Police determined the burglary report is unfounded and present evidence to obtain a warrant for Singler's arrest, but the mom is nowhere to be found. Since she was not a suspect, Singler was not under surveillance, and by the time she needed to be, she was gone. Kimberly Singler was last seen December 23rd in Colorado. Two days before Christmas. Okay, that's what we

were talking about, Eric Faddis. You're the high- high profile lawyer joining us out of Colorado, this jurisdiction. That's why the entry point should have been determined at the very beginning. But of course, they're dealing with two dead children's bodies. So, I mean, you can tell if a glass has been broken from the outside or the inside, depending on where you find the glass. You can tell if a screen door is cut from the outside or the inside depending on which way the screen wiring is now pointed based on the slashing. You can tell if a door has been jimmied. You can tell if there's no forced entry. I'm betting you, I'm betting you there was no forced entry, Eric Faddis.

Right. And, you know, of course, to the police's credit that they came upon this scene, I'm sure it's chaotic. It's hectic. There are two dead children here. So there's a lot going on. But like I said, one of the first points of focus for law enforcement should be determining whether there was a breaking and entering in that residence, or if there's apparent evidence of that, trying to determine whether it was stained or set up by someone or not. Maybe it is a legitimate breaking and entering or burglary. But those are really sort of the starting points for this kind of investigation. And so I'm curious to see exactly how that played out. And you've got to think about this woman, because Eric Faddis, and I want everybody on the panel to jump in on this if you have a thought. Eric Faddis, she has already gone in front of one judge, two judges actually, to claim her husband waved a knife at her and wanted to get sole parenting.

Based on that, both judges ruled it out. Police determined there had not been a knife attack or a knife threatening. So we know that was pulled off. So I can imagine the drama and the acting that went down when police got there to find the two dead children's bodies. Police did not believe she was a suspect at that time. And to their credit, they're like, you know what, something's not right. And they go back and they do determine there was no burglary. Nothing about the evidence suggested a burglary occurred. And we wouldn't know that if police had not gone back and done their job. Right. And thank heavens they did.

But upon learning that, you know, they've got to realize there is a mother who is now probably a suspect with two dead children. We better keep an eye on her. We better make sure that we know of her whereabouts. And at the very least,

we better not allow her to fly all the way to the UK and abscond. Well, she did it. Take a listen to our cut seven. Details as to how police tracked Kimberly Singler to the UK or the arrest itself have not been released. Kay and of Scott. Well, she did it. Take a listen to our cut seven. Details as to how police tracked Kimberly Singler to the UK or the arrest itself have not been released, but we do know she was

picked up in Kensington, London, 4,000 miles away from the Colorado home. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me is a renowned expert, Irv Brandt, Senior Inspector, U.S. Marshals Service and author. Irv, how did they track her? Well, from years of experience, I would say it's most likely that investigators got information from a family member or friend. It would be easy enough to verify through text, the Treasury Enforcement Communication System, that that person using the U.S. passport, left the country, and you could track where they went to. And it's also likely that they also had information of where she was. Kensington, London's a big place, and Kensington is in central London.

Would she have been so stupid to use her credit cards and ATMs? Yes. Yes, she would have. Heather Skold, wasn't she found in a hotel in Kensington? That is correct. In a hotel on the west side of London apprehended by Britain's version of the FBI, the National Crime Agency. Is that true, Erbrandt? Is that the FBI equivalent in London?

It is. And it's made up by officers from multiple jurisdictions. We also know that London is covered in CCTV. They take it very, very seriously. There are not long stretches where you don't have a security cam. Also, as we saw in the Caitlin Armstrong case, which you covered with me and investigated Irv Brandt, Caitlin Armstrong was seen at the airport using her sister's passport to get away from a murder charge, which leads me to the theory of flight. Eric Faddis, you're the former prosecutor turned defense attorney. How are you going to explain to a jury what she just went sightseeing in London?

She just wanted to tour through Buckingham Palace. That's not going to work. Yeah, I'm filing a motion to withdraw if I'm representing her because you're not going to be able to sell that to anybody. The idea when someone flees is that there is a consciousness of guilt. They know they did something wrong. And even the judge in the UK said something to that effect when he said that Kimberly Singler knew exactly what was going to happen. And now she is in these extradition proceedings to come back to Colorado, although I think those are going to be lengthy. Well, you're right. Take a listen to Rachel Bonilla, Crime Online. She spent 14 days on the run. Singler appeared in a London court New Year's Day to face extradition proceedings. In her

appearance at the Westminster Magistrates Court, Singler told the court she did not consent to being taken back to the U.S. Reportedly, she had been staying at a hotel. Singler will remain in custody in London until a second hearing January 29th, when a formal request for her extradition to the United States will be filed. You know, I'd like to think that she was so distraught she didn't realize what she was doing, but that's not true. She had to use her passport to fly to London, Heathrow, or wherever she flew. She didn't row over there in a canoe. She had to use a passport. She had to book a flight, she had to find a hotel, so she had her wits about her. Also, Irv Brandt, if you could explain how a transcontinental extradition

would occur. Sure. She was arrested on what we call provisional arrest warrant pending extradition to the United States. Her initial plea is that she is going to fight extradition. The extradition process from the UK can be very lengthy, a lot of hearings, then a multitude of appeals. And so if she fights it to the very end throughout the appeal process, it could take up to years to get her back. Normally I've, I've handled many, many extraditions from the UK.

Normally at some point people in custody and they're not, if they're not released, realize that they are eventually going to have to face the charges and they consent to the extradition and they come back. Because there's one big factor that attorneys will point out to them is while they're in custody in the United Kingdom fighting extradition back to the United States, they're not getting credit for the time that they're being served. It's not like if you were in the United States, once you go to trial, you get credit for all the time that you're in custody. When you're outside of the country fighting extradition, you're not getting any credit for all the time that you're in custody. When you're outside of the country fighting extradition, you're not getting any credit for the time. So a lot of times, at some point, people say, okay, fine, I'll come back. And I'll bring up a case you might be familiar with it,

Nancy. Do you remember Neil N. Whistle that killed his wife in Boston? Oh, yes. And fled to the UK? N. Whistle killed wife and daughter Lily and ran home to mommy and daddy in the UK. I did the extradition. I chartered the jet and flew to Mendenhall Air Force Base outside of London and brought Neil N. Whistle back to the United States. May he rot in hell. Yes. And that was exactly what happened. He initially was going to fight extradition, but realized he wasn't going to be released.

You're right, Erb Brant, as usual. But what's striking me is that she is choosing to miss her children's funeral, which is in a couple of hours from right now. Which leads me to A, a psychological question to Dr. Angie, and B, to a medical question to Dr. Eric Eason, a forensic pathologist joining us. Dr. Eason, the funeral is happening for these two children. The funeral is for a seven-year-old and a nine-year-old. Their little caskets are about to be buried. So wouldn't it, doesn't that suggest to you that there is a formal cause of death? Possibly. The autopsies have been done, of course. And so the pathologist, what the cause of death may be.

My theory as to why we don't have a death certificate prepared is they are probably awaiting toxicology results on this case. So it may be an element of like a poisoning combined with strangulation or smothering or something like that. And so they need the result of that. Like did somebody give them Benadryl or NyQuil or antifreeze perhaps to try and attempt to poison them and then ended up inflicting blunt trauma or strangulation. And so they're probably waiting on that. Yeah. When you say toxicology, I'd be curious if they were administered something as in, I think what happened with Kaylee Anthony, given some type of homemade chloroform or Benadryl or some sleeping agent before a duct tape was put across her mouth and possibly nose, which led to her death in the trunk of that car. I see where you're going.

And I agree with you, Dr. Eason, yet again, although you got me on the petechiae hemorrhages, and I really resent that. I hope we live to fight another day. Dr. Angie Arnold, missing the funeral. I mean, one of the worst moments in my life was when I went to my fiancé's funeral, which shortly before our wedding turned into a funeral. But I would never have,

never, the thought never occurred to me not to be there. But this mom isn't there. Well, Nancy, she's already had closure with those children and a funeral, a funeral, as they all say, is for the living. And it helps people have closure after someone is dead nancy i believe that she's moved on from that and and as she she knows what happened she in her heart knows what happened and she doesn't need to go to the funeral to find closure with those children. As of now, as the rest of the family heads to the children's funeral, we wait for justice to unfold. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.