Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Two young beauties, ages 17 and 21, found in shallow graves wearing only 1 sock. Is there a serial killer at work?

Episode Date: December 13, 2019

21-year-old Julia Woodward moves to Reno, Nevada. She's later found dead, with her hands tied and eyes sealed shut with Band-Aids.Over 30 years later, police suspect an unassuming retired plumber killed her and more. They fear he may possibly be a serial killer.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Ashley Willcott: Judge and trial attorney, Anchor on Court TV James Shelnutt: 27 years Atlanta Metro Major Case detective, SWAT Officer (RET) Attorney Bethany Marshall: Psychologist Dr. Tim Gallagher: Medical Examiner for State Of Florida Jennifer Dzikowski: Investigative Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. A cloth as a gag, her eyes sealed shut with band-aids, zip ties around her legs. 21-year-old Julia Woodward found in a shallow grave in Hungry Valley about 15 miles from Reno. What happened to Julia Woodward? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Investigators at the Washoe County Sheriff's Office in Reno found a body in a shallow grave. It was 20-year-old Julia Woodward. Her body found in Hungry Valley, about 15 miles north of Reno.

Investigators say her eyes were sealed shut with Band-Aids. They found zip ties on her legs, a cloth used as a gag, and rocks covered in hair and blood. She was only wearing one shoe. What happened to Julia Woodward? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of it all, Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV. You can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. James Shelnut, 27 years, Atlanta Metro major case, SWAT officer, now a lawyer. Renowned psychoanalyst joining us from L.A., Dr. Bethany Marshall at DrBethanyMarshall.com. The medical examiner for the entire state of Florida, Dr. Tim Gallagher. And he's joining me right now straight out to investigative reporter with heavy.com, Jennifer Sikowski. Jennifer, please

describe for me again the way that this girl's body was found. 21-year-old Julia Woodward. If you could see her, she just looks scrubbed in sunshine. You can tell her parents spent a lot of money on braces for her, wearing her hair in the style of the day, kind of like Farrah Fawcett. Beautiful smile, perfect nose, beautiful eyes. Who would kill this girl? Jennifer Zagowski, tell me about the discovery of her body. So, yes, Julia Woodward was absolutely gorgeous. She was also described as being a very sweet girl who loved her family. She held a promising future. And she had been living in San Rafael, California, with her mother and father. Julia's parents told detectives at the time that she was traveling to Lake Tahoe and the Reno area in hopes of finding a job.

A friend drove her to the airport, and she was never seen again. Weeks later, her mom reported her as missing when she couldn't get in touch with her. And the last time mom saw her— Hold on just a moment. Jennifer, I'm going to ask you. Jennifer, hold on just a moment. You told me she was traveling from A to B to get a job, look for a job. She's 21 years old, just out of school.

Jennifer, from where and to where was she traveling? She was traveling from San Rafael, California, her hometown, to Reno, Nevada. She was driven to the San Francisco airport by a friend to catch her flight, and that's when she was never seen again. Her mom reported her as missing when she couldn't get in touch. This girl, Julia Woodward, disappears almost immediately after, we believe, touching down in Reno. She goes there, and not long after, her body found in a shallow grave in a desert near Lemon Valley. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida, what can you tell me about her cause of death?

I mean, this case goes down decades ago. It's when she goes missing. This is 40 years ago. How can you determine COD, cause of death, 40 years later? Well, the cause of death can be determined by the condition of the skeletal remains in most cases. If there are skull fractures that are caused by a blunt impact or if there are gunshot wounds that go through the bones. These are very well-preserved pieces of evidence that can lead us to a very accurate cause of death. Now, what we believe right now is that this young girl's head had been bashed in with a rock. Her eyes sealed shut with a band-aid her legs bound with zip ties her mouth gagged with a cloth and we are learning

that from sources at knxv tv i want to go to you to dr bethany marshall psychoanalyst dr bethany my big question is the scene of julia murder was brutal, but what does it reveal about her killer? Well, one of the things I wondered was, were the Band-Aids put on her eyes before he accosted and assaulted her, or were they put on afterwards? Because that tells us a lot. If they were placed on her eyes before, it would mean that he didn't want to be seen, so he would not want to be ID'd. If they were placed afterwards, it was an attempt to preserve the corpse in some manner, prepare her for burial. Apparently, there was another crime where he was unsuccessful in assaulting and murdering a young woman, but he instructed her

to not look at him, that if she looked at him, he would bash her head with a rock. So apparently this was already part of his MO. You know, with serial killers, Nancy, they have a particular style, a fetishized style of assaulting and killing the victim. And it tends to be the same every single time. So if I was interviewing this man, I would want to know what's the significance of bashing a person's head with a rock? Is it just to kill them or is there some sadistic pleasure? Is it some sexual pleasure and inflicting harm? What about the band-aids? Do you want to assault her while she can't look at you? What about the zip ties? Do you don't want her to get away or do you like the fact that someone's immobile while you're sexually assault them? These would be very important questions in a forensic interview. What, if anything, will potential DNA show in the case? Authorities say DNA evidence found on Woodward's clothing led to Sullivan, who was convicted of a 2007 attack

in Nevada County. It's a Balaam attributes to newe years ago we started our we know what technology a we would have those break new developments give Jul finding justice for her d of encouragement for othe

It's possible, you know, they have now and if the should write to keep in t and whatever county they' what form of justice Juli from a possible convictio never forget. There's no like I miss Julie every hour of every day.

You know, I think about her all the time. All the 40 years I've been thinking about her, and I'm thinking about her still. Oh, the suffering this mother has gone through for 40 years. You're hearing Brian Hoffman from KTVN2 News speaking to Julia's mother, to Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the state of Florida. How, after all these years, can you get DNA from a corpse? Well, that's a very good question. There's a lot of places that the DNA will degrade over time, but there are a few places that wouldn't. For instance, if you look at the inside portion of the tooth, the pulp of the tooth, the soft tissue of that can be extracted for DNA and it's

very well preserved. Even some of the longer bones, you know, the bone marrow itself, the DNA is still preserved inside of that because it is protected from the elements by a hardened calcified shell around it. You know, is this guy a serial killer? We don't know. But take a listen to what we've learned from KNXV ABC 15, Nicole Valdez. Prosecutors call her AE. She may be one of the only women who escaped. It was September of 2007. She was in Utah hitchhiking to California, just like Julia Woodward. According to investigators, she made it to Nevada County about 45 minutes from Reno and hopped in with another man, Charles Gary Sullivan. He pulled off into a remote area in the Tahoe National Forest and according to prosecutors, pulled a gun on her and told her to lay on her stomach. He used zip ties and handcuffs on her wrists and ankles.

Then the 25-year-old asked what he had planned and his response was, the only thing that's going to be involved is sex and we're just going to be out here for a few days having some fun. She had a pocket knife though and when he wasn't looking, cut off the zip ties and ran. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Prosecutors called her A.E. She may be one of the only women who escaped. It was September of 2007.

She was in Utah hitchhiking to California, just like Julia Woodward. According to investigators, she made it to Nevada County about 45 minutes from Reno and hopped in with another man, Charles Gary Sullivan. He pulled off into a remote area in the Tahoe National Forest and, according to prosecutors, pulled a gun on her and told her to lay on her stomach. He used zip ties and handcuffs on her wrists and ankles. Then the 25-year-old asked what he had planned and his response was, the only thing that's going to be involved is sex and we're just going to be out here for a few days having some fun. She had a pocket knife though and when he wasn't looking, cut off the zip ties and ran. Back to Jennifer Zagowski, investigative reporter, heavy.com. So that 2007 victim, who we will call A.E. to protect her identity, managed to get away.

When the perp wasn't looking, she used a pocket knife to cut the zip tie Sia placed around her ankles and wrists and make a run for it. She managed to escape. She lived to tell the tale. Was he convicted in the 2007 case? He was, and it's important to note, too, when she did run, she came across two men in ATVs who came to her rescue. I think that's so important. It's a remote area, and thank God for those two men. So So according to a 2008 report by the Sierra Thoughts, Sullivan was originally charged with kidnapping with a firearm, kidnapping with the intent to commit rape with a firearm,

and criminal threats with a firearm. If he had been convicted of those charges, he would have faced life in prison. However, he was instead convicted of lesser charges, including making criminal threats and false imprisonment. The reason behind that, it was reported that jurors didn't see enough credible evidence for the charges of Sullivan, both having a gun and kidnapping. The kidnapping part likely, in my opinion, because the woman was hitchhiking he received three years and eight months for the crime which was the maximum sentence allotted hold on just a moment to ashley wilcott judge and trial lawyer i guess the jury didn't hear the judge read the the charge of

the law to them or the prosecutor didn't explain it well enough or maybe you know they just are idiots because kidnapping doesn't require a a long space uh as long distance if i were to grab jackie howard at gunpoint he's sitting right here with me in the studio and force her into the next room three feet, that would be kidnapping. The distance or the, as it's called under the law, asportation is irrelevant. Absolutely. It is irrelevant. And so part of the issue we run in with juries, you know, juries are very sophisticated in my opinion. However, they can only base their decisions based on what you just said, which is how well is it explained by the prosecution? How well is it reiterated in the jury instructions that tell them exactly what the law is? And frequently, if those jury instructions, you know this, Nancy, if you do not ensure that those jury instructions

are right on and the law is very clear and easy for them to understand, and or if as a prosecutor, you do not spoon feed them to say, this is all it has to be, then they may not understand what you just said. That is kidnapping. There's no condition of this is how far you have to take someone in order for it to be a kidnapping. Well, to me, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A., sounds to me that they were holding a grudge against the female victim who was hitchhiking. From what Jennifer Cikowski from heavy.com is saying, they seem to think because she was hitchhiking, taking her out in the desert and raping her, that that wasn't a kidnapping. You think she wanted to go out to the desert with this freak? Nancy, remember people who hitchhike often hitchhike because they have no money. So maybe she wasn't dressed well in court. Maybe she didn't present well. You know,

juries and judges both can be what we call either offender identified or victim identified. No matter what position in the law you're in, even if you're just serving in a jury, you might have an ax to grind against victims. Perhaps you were a victim yourself or you victimized somebody else at some point in your life and you bring various meanings to it, or you perpetrated against somebody, like I just said, and you can't forgive yourself for it. So you're going to let this other perpetrator off the hook. So I think juries really can be wild cards for so many different reasons. Well, the only... Can I add something to that? Jump in, Jennifer.

All right. So something that I also found interesting was that Sullivan actually tried convincing the jurors that the victim wanted to be zip-tied. That was another reason that kind of boggled my mind. Well, that he got away with the kidnapping and gun charges. In fact, when he had taken her, you know, promised her this ride to where she needed to go, which was home from her aunt's funeral, he led her into a remote area where he promised her there would be secret veins of turquoise that she could make money off of. So again, that just kind of shocked me when I read that the judge even said, he said, the jury didn't buy your story and I didn't buy it. The suggestion

that she wanted to be zip-tied defies credulity. I'm not surprised the jury didn't buy it. You know what? I'm not surprised either, Jennifer, but I'm angry. I'm angry that the jury didn't get him on kidnapping because if they hadn't gotten him on kidnapping, he may have been behind bars for another 20 years. And you know what? I want to go to James Shelnut. You've been in the business along with me. You've been at 27 years Metro major case.

Does it never end the blaming the victim? Like after her aunt's funeral, she wanted to go out into the rugged terrain, get zip tied, face down on the dirt and raped. I mean, what is wrong with that jury? I don't know. I mean, it angers me that this was done to this lady and she's victimized. They look at her like she has somehow done something wrong. When she nearly lost her life, she's been permanently traumatized by this. It is outrageous that this is the result that occurred in that case. I'm just so mad I could chew a nail in half. Let me go to Dr. Tim

Gallagher, Medical Examiner, state of Florida. So question to you, could you just explain something to me about sperm? Yes, I know where it comes from, but I recall telling juries that after at least after 72 hours, three days, by then for sure, the sperm had, quote, broken down, degenerated. The tail comes off first, the head comes off next, and the sperm starts to degenerate. Now, this is a yes-no, doctor. Is that much true? Yes, it is. Okay, thank goodness I was right when I told that to the juries so how long can the sperm be in or on the body and it be found by a rape kit nurse or a doctor and preserved and dna extracted how long can it survive well the first thing to know is that yes after three days the sperm itself begins to degrade like Like you said before, the head comes off, the tail comes off, and it stops

becoming mobile. That's the organism itself, or that's the sperm itself. But the DNA within the sperm maintains itself for, it can maintain itself indefinitely under the right set of conditions. So it's the DNA that they check for in the sperm and the sperm DNA is different than any other DNA that you will find in the body. So that sperm DNA itself can be preserved under the right conditions for years and years indefinitely in some cases. Well, how is sperm DNA different from other DNA? The DNA in the body is known as double-stranded or double-helix DNA. The DNA in the sperm is just a single strand of DNA because the offspring is a combination of the DNA of the father and the DNA of the mother. So the mother contributes one half of the DNA. The father contributes the other half of the DNA

and together they form the double helix in the embryo. So part of the DNA, which is one strand, is contributed by the father. The other part of the DNA, which is the other strand, the complimentary strand, is contributed by the father. The other part of the DNA, which is the other strand, the complementary strand, is contributed by the mother. And then together, that forms the embryo. So the DNA in the sperm is just one strand as opposed to two strands of DNA in the rest of the body. And one follow-up question, Dr. Tim Gallagher, when you say

sperm, which is double-stranded or double-helix DNA, is different from all other DNA found in the body. What other DNA found in the body? You mean like blood or tissue? Right. There's DNA in every cell of the body that has a nucleus in it. For instance, your skin cells or the cells that make up your organs, such as your liver, your pancreas. The DNA that's in your hair roots, you know, are different than sperm DNA. So a good DNA technologist can differentiate exactly what part of the body that

DNA was taken from. Wow. So it's double strand or double helix, single strand, would you say single helix or? Well, right. Yeah. It takes, it takes two strands to make, it's double strand or double helix. Single strand, would you say single helix or no? Well, right. It takes two strands to make, it's like if you think of a spiral staircase, the banister, you know, on a spiral staircase. That would be an example of a double helix. But if you could think about a single strand, which would be just one of those banisters, you know, and half of the spiral staircase. So you don't have a helix? Right, you won't have a helix, just have kind of a wavy little thing.

Got it. So it's just single strand. Okay, well, speaking of the DNA left behind on that 2007 hitchhiker that the jury almost totally screwed over. One good thing came out of that. Take a listen to our friends at KOLO-TV, Ed Pierce. Sullivan was charged with the kidnapping and attempted rape of a hitchhiker he picked up in the High Sierra at the intersection of I-80 and Highway 20. Nevada County authorities say he took the young woman to a remote spot near Bowman Lake,

produced a gun, handcuffed her, bound her ankles with tie wraps, and told her he'd let her go after a few days of sex. When he returned to his van, she got loose, found her way to some campers and freed him. The jury couldn't agree on the more serious charges, but convicted him instead of false imprisonment. He received a sentence of less than four years and was eventually paroled to Southern California. Grand jury testimony reveals that DNA taken from him during that investigation was used nearly a decade later to link him to Julia Woodward's murder. Now, at the time of the 2007 Nevada County case, an investigator said that victim was extremely lucky to have escaped and be alive. The victim herself was quoted as saying she feared this was not the first time that is committing this kind of crime, adding only the difference being I got away and he got caught.

You know, to Jennifer Skowski, investigative reporter, heavy.com. Is there another body? of 1978, another beautiful young woman, 17-year-old Jeannie Smith, was seen leaving the Circus Circus Hotel and Casino, which is also in Reno, Nevada, where she worked as a waitress. She did not work that day, though, and she had been meeting up with friends. Later that night, she was seen leaving with a man who friends said was referred to as Chuck. And the friends also said she may have been planted by cocaine from this Chuck. Jeannie was never seen again.

According to a 1979 article from the Reno Gazette, the woman's disappearance case had been closed by investigators on september 17 1979 because their parents had moved out of state but then just days later on november 2nd 1979 only about eight months after julia woodward's body was discovered the body of jeannie smith was found less than a mile away from where julia's body was found in a shallow grave. In the same article from 1979, it was revealed that Woodward's remains were identified by authorities just two days prior to Jeannie Smith's remains also being identified. Take a listen to this. But the no bail motion also cites two other unsolved cases. One has long been linked to Woodward's murder by obvious circumstance.

17-year-old Jeannie Smith was last seen in downtown Reno in 1978. Her remains were found a year later, not far from where Woodward's body was found in the same remote area of Hungry Valley. According to the state's motion, Sullivan was a person of interest in the investigation of Smith's death, but fled the state soon after. Not because of that case but as Reno police began to question him about the disappearance of yet another woman, Linda Taylor, who disappeared during the same time period. Sullivan initially said he didn't know Taylor but later admitted he had been on a date with her. Her body was never found. The conclusion of the state's argument?

All evidence points to the defendant being a serial killer responsible for Julia Woodward's murder and others. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Jennifer Zahowski, heavy.com. Who's Linda Taylor? Linda Taylor, she's a 23-year-old, yet another young woman who went missing from Reno, Nevada. Authorities had asked for the public's assistance in identifying a man who was last seen with Linda at a bank that was only a, I'm sorry, only a couple of days before she went missing. A tip then led detectives, you know, you've got it, to Charles Gary Sullivan. And like it was just announced, he initially denied knowing her or having any involvement with her, but later confessed to having been caught on a date with her. Her car was discovered nine days after she was reported missing at a grocery store.

In the Springs Hills, the vehicle was only about 10 miles away from where the remains of Julia Woodward and Jeannie Smith were found. When police went to interview two of Sullivan's ex-girlfriends regarding the case, they reportedly refused to talk and both moved away. One to Arizona because she said her mother was dying, and the other to California, who claimed her father was on a deathbed, which is a little strange that each of these women had such similar stories to tell detectives. And her body, I'm sorry, has never been found. Well, you know what, to Ashley Wilcott, judge and trial lawyer, Ashley, when a guy like Charles Gary Sullivan says he took this missing girl, Linda Taylor, on a date, what does that date say to you? Yeah, a date, my fanny. I just think that

what it means is you have to look closer and it's a huge red flag because that doesn't make good sense. It doesn't sound like that's likely what happened. And a date, quote unquote, probably means he did something against her will. You know, to you, Jennifer Tsikowski, we know police are now investigating Sullivan for the murder of 17-year-old Jeannie Smith. As you told us, her remains also found in the same area where Julia's body was found. What are the parallels, the similarities in those two cases? Okay, so the similarities between Julia Woodward and Jeannie Smith's cases. In February of this year, when they were talking about reexamining Julia Woodward's case, Lieutenant Tom Reed at the Washoe County Sheriff's Department said of both cases to ABC8, quote, it's very unusual that two victims from the same year with similar circumstances

would be found in the same geographical area like that. The similarities of these brutal murders can't be denied. And according to police, both women's eyes were covered by bandages. Julia Woodward's eyes had actual band-aids covering them, while Jeannie Smith's were said to have been covered by medical tape. Both had their identification and underwear taken from them. And each woman was left with only one shoe, which makes me wonder if he was keeping these things as trophies, per se, as we often hear of serial killers. It is also believed that both of the female victims were bludgeoned to death with rocks.

As both murder scenes, there were bloody rocks found, covered with hair and blood. Julia and Jeannie each died also as a result of fractured skulls. And, of course, the fact that these young women's bodies were discovered within a quarter mile of each other. And both buried in shallow graves. Yes. The similarities are incredible.

In your line of work, Ashley Wilcott, we, in our line of work, we call it a fingerprint crime. And you can use that in court, as you well know. When a prosecutor chooses or goes forward with trial to prosecute a case, they can look at similar modus operandi, the similar ways of conducting the crimes, of committing the crimes, because honestly, it goes to the old saying, there's no such thing as a coincidence, much less that many. It's a pattern.

It's what they've done to each victim. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, something I don't understand, Jennifer Sikowski, is that if his DNA, if they had had it for so long after he abducted the female hitchhiker A.E. in 2007, what took him so long to charge him with Julia Woodward's murder? That is such a great question. You know, I'm not familiar with all of the cold cases in Reno, Nevada. I imagine there are many, and I'm not sure exactly the timeline of how long DNA takes to process and things like that, but the truth of the matter is that the DNA was discovered on Julia Woodward's genes,

and it was connected to Sullivan. Oxygen reported that there wasn't any, quote, specific evidence brought up to the grand jury in the case of Julia, and his attorney, David Houston, posed the question that, quote, even if DNA shows he had contact with her, Where is the act of murder proved? Oh, she just happened to have his DNA all over her and she was bashed in with a rock. Exactly. But let me ask you a question. When was Julia's body found? Julia's

body... Okay, on March 24th of 1979, Julia's body was found. It was discovered about 15 miles north of Reno in the Hungry Valley. Got it. And then Jeannie was last seen in 1978, so they're about a year apart. But to you, Dr. Tim Gallagher, medical examiner, state of Florida, yes, it took a long time to connect the

two. But we have to remember that newly discovered DNA techniques have just occurred. It may have been some new technique that made it possible to analyze the DNA on Julia's body. That is correct, Nancy. And not only has new techniques become available, but DNA databases that are present in individual states now can speak with each other, now are connected with each other. So once the DNA has been identified, it can be searched through many, many databases, through many, many areas of the country, and then a match can be made that way, where in previous cases, if the DNA was found in one state and the crime was found in another state, that connection could never be made. Jennifer Zagowski, do you believe that Charles Gary Sullivan, now 73, living quietly as a plumber, is a serial killer and why? You know, every arrow to me is pointing in that direction.

You've got these three young vulnerable women, these three women that we know of. How many more women are there out there that police may not have talked about yet, that the DNA hasn't been submitted yet? Four, I believe that there are going to be several, if not numerous, more cases that arise out of this. What about it to James Shelnut?

You think he's a serial killer? Why or why not? Yeah, I think he's a serial killer. Look, this guy's got connections to all these women who come up missing. He has got a pattern of sexual abuse of a victim, at least one that we know of that's common and prolific among serial killers. This guy's got ties to two different women who were both found with the same serial killer signature. A third victim that he's suspected of, yeah, this guy's a serial killer. This guy's dangerous. And I will tell you,

there could easily be many more victims that we're not aware of that may not be known, but are not. So how many dead bodies are there? How many victims are there that we know of? Well, so far, three, you know, Linda Taylor, he's a suspect in in her disappearance. Of course, her body has not been found yet. Jeannie Smith, who's, you know, the similarities between her and Julia Woodward, you can't deny them. And I would also say that it's important to talk about his Google searches. So after he became registered as a sex offender in California, after the 2007 crime against this innocent young woman who had been hitchhiking, according to Oxygen, he searched the phrases, quote, child sex, naked children, and lost hikers in California, if that's not chilling. Wow. To Ashley Wolcott, is this guy a serial killer?

Oh, I absolutely think he is. First and foremost, he's a predator. But secondly, I have no doubt, I completely agree with the comments that have been made. He is a serial killer. He has a method, a mayor who the victim is. It's the victim of opportunity that he can do these specific things to. With the DNA stacked against him, what do you believe he can expect at trial? I mean, I know that Nevada is a death penalty state. What about it, Ashley? It absolutely is a death penalty state. And as the reality of that is, if he is convicted of first degree murder, then he faces sentencing of the death penalty or, in the alternative, life without parole. Question, Jennifer, does Nevada have life without parole? They do.

And, in fact, with the case from 2007, he could have received that had he been charged with the original crimes rather than the lesser crimes that he received only three and a half years of prison sentence of. Absolutely. How do you think he managed, Jennifer, how do you think he managed to avoid police for four decades? You know, it's such a good question. He knew what he was doing. He was methodical about his approach. He see these Google searches now from 2007, 2008, when he became a registered sex offender. But back then, we didn't have Google searches to go back on. So what was he looking up then? I have no doubt that he had a method to his approach, that there was something with hitchhikers and these vulnerable women that he went after and somehow escaped police. Even though, you know, there were so many signs that pointed to him, including, you know, going on a date with Linda Taylor, who had disappeared, whose body has never been found.

Right. So, to James Shelnut, how do you believe he went under the radar and avoided detection for 40 years? I believe it was a perfect storm for this guy, Nancy. Look, you know, think about it. You know, this is at a time when a lot of these murders happened before the advent of DNA as we know it today. He lived in an area that he had a close desolate place to dump the bodies at, a desert close by. A lot of these women were women that were discarded by society and discarded by others. When you think about back in those times, it was not a time where everybody had a social media account. You know, if you were living across country, it was a little bit more difficult to communicate with those around you, or your presence was not quite as known like it would be on Facebook or Snapchat or other things. And so I think it was based off the time and era when these things happened, the availability of a desolate

proximity for him to dump these bodies. The advent of DNA had not come as far along as it was, and I think it was a perfect storm. But fortunately, that storm came to a head, and he's known for what he's done at this point in time. Take a listen to our friends at KNXV, ABC 15, Nicole Valdez. Duncan, though, says if you ask his wife... She loves her husband. He said she's convinced and he said that he he's convinced

she's convinced and told me that he would never do such a thing and she's going to defend her husband. But she's not so sure and if anything worried Woodward may not be the only victim. Among dozens of investigators cadaver dogs searched the entire high country block Duncan confronted detectives. I asked him why are there cadaver dogs searched the entire high country block. Duncan confronted detectives. I asked him why are there cadaver dogs here and he said, I can't tell you because we're investigating and we cannot say anything. But the only thing I can tell you, our agency uses these dogs when we're looking for dead bodies. Crime lab sources tell ABC 15 investigators from the Arizona Department of Public Safety

were given Sullivan's DNA for testing. Seeing birds fly around, you know, like, I said, oh my gosh, are they looking for body pieces? Sullivan could be connected to other murders in Arizona, but how many? This was a very big crime, a huge crime. And we still don't know. And I would like to know. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.