Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - UNSOLVED: Tender-Hearted Singer Songwriter' MUTILATED' Walking Dog, Atlanta's Piedmont Park

Episode Date: June 20, 2022

It's been almost a year since Katie Janness and her dog died brutally inside Atlanta's Piedmont Park. The person who stabbed Jannes more than 50 times, and slit the throat of the dog, is still at large.  Family and friends have unveiled a forever memorial bench to honor  Katie Janness. As far as the investigation, Atlanta Police say it's ongoing.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson - High Profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com  Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, CarynStark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"  Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas and Texas A&M, Affiliated Faculty: University of Texas Medical Branch Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA, ColdCaseCrimes.org, @ColdCaseTips   Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Since when did a walk in the park turn into a grisly murder scene? That's my question. What happened to Katie Janis? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

First of all, take a listen to this. Atlanta 911, operator 7959. What's the address to your emergency? Sir, I'm at the entrance of Piedmont Park. I just was texting to my girlfriend's phone because I couldn't find her. She just said she's here at Piedmont Park. Please help. You said somebody's dead at Piedmont Park?

Yes, sir. Please send help. Please. All right, yes, ma'am. I'm going to send help to you. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. All right. Can I get your name?

You are hearing part of a 911 call where Emma Clark calls 911 to say she is at the entrance of Piedmont Park looking for her friend's phone because she couldn't find her. And then she does find her, and she's dead. How does a simple walk in the park with your dog end up with you murdered, literally butchered, in one of the most famous parks in the city? Again, this is Crime Stories, and I want to thank you for being with us. I'm wondering, what is the delay? We are hearing that this case, this gruesome murder of a beautiful young woman, her world before her, has turned into a, quote, forensics investigation. Now, what does that mean?

With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But before we start, I want you to hear a little more of that 911 call. Listen. Hello. But before we start, I want you to hear a little more of that 911 call. Listen. I'm all right. F***. Where's Shannon? Where's Shannon apart? Keep away.

Near the entrance. Like, I don't know. I don't explain. Did you just see that? That's my f***ing girlfriend. I know you're not. I didn't explain it to you. Did you just see that? What? That's my girlfriend. What the?

Yeah. All right, I'm home. Please. Oh, my God, dude. She's like, she's dead, dead. Like, it's so... All right, I'm about to call Grady, okay? Please. You're hearing more of the 911 call. With with me an all-star panel to make sense

of what we know right now but first of all to cheryl mccullum uh founder and director of the cold case research institute you can find her at coldcasecrimes.org who is emma clark calling in on the phone that is victim's partner correct right long Right. Longtime partner and roommate. So she had also seen Katie right before the murders occurred, maybe 40 minutes before. Katie had stopped by to see her at work and let her see their dog Bowie. And she was going to finish her walk while, you know, Emma finished her shift at work. So let me understand, Cheryl McCollum, Katie was seen by her roommate just 40 minutes before she is found butchered, literally butchered in Piedmont Park. Correct. Emma worked as a bartender in a local bar right there at the park. So Katie would walk Bowie to the establishment and they

would visit for a few minutes while she was on break. And then while she finished walking the dog another 20 or 30 minutes, Emma would finish up her shift and they would meet back home at the same time. Well, on this particular night when Emma got home, Katie and Bowie weren't there. So immediately, you know how you would do, you would call and say, hey, where are you at? There was no answer to the cell phone. Then she started texting her. Hey, where are you?

And still no response from Katie at all. Also with us, Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Alexis, I lived on the corner of Piedmont Park for years and years and years when I was prosecuting in inner city Atlanta. And it's beautiful. It's huge. It's the centerpiece of downtown. It's like Central Park is to Manhattan. Piedmont Park is to Atlanta.

What can you tell us about the area where she was, Alexis? When Emma first entered the park looking for her, she found the dog first. But there's a street that goes through it. So she thought that the dog had perhaps been hit by a car. But the dog was off to the side. But then it was about 100 feet away or so is where she saw Katie. And she, it was a leafy grass, I'm sorry, not leafy, but a grassy area. Piedmont Park is, you know, there's lots of trees, there's parks, there's paths to walk through, like any park, but there's

also a road that goes through it. You know, it's a huge jogging area. It's wooded. It's hundreds of acres. It's beautiful. It's surrounded by streets and red lights. Cheryl McCollum, I'm thinking about it. You've got volleyball being played out there. People play football. They throw frisbees. People walk their dogs. It's a huge dog walking place because everybody in Midtown, they're all mostly in apartments or old antebellum homes that have been divided into apartments. So they don't have a lot of space to walk their dog. So they go to Piedmont Park, which is why I believe Katie was there. And interesting, where she was, was very close to a street intersection with a red light. Take a listen to our friends at 11 Alive. They are describing this as a gruesome scene.

We did just see the medical examiner leave this area of Piedmont Park. Some police are still here right now. This is the corner of 10th St and Charles Allen Drive right at the entrance into the park here. Police say she was found about 100 yards into the park. We're told another person in the park found the body and called 911

around 1 o'clock this morning. This is what the scene has looked like all morning. APD has this part of the park blocked off and say they will be here for several more hours. Investigators say they're hoping once the sun comes up, they'll be able to canvas the scene better. But they are describing this again as a very gruesome scene. Straight out to Dale Carson, high profile lawyer joining us out of Jacksonville. Former FBI agent, author of Arrest Proof Yourself.

You can find him at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale, explain why it was so difficult to process this scene. Outdoors, at night, people milling by. Well, you've just identified the primary reason, which is it's night. People are milling by. You have no idea where the actual crime scene is you know where the body came to final rest but you don't know where the assault actually occurred and the only way to determine that is to find out where the blood began and ended and so you don't know that you've

got to cordon off the entire area and wait for sunlight to appear so you can actually find out where the crime scene is. It may be really broad instead of very narrow. And not only that, Cheryl McCollum, you have the issue of contamination because people are milling around. It's in a public spot. There's dirt, grass. Other people have been there tromping around. How do you know any DNA you might find is connected to this case? I remember a triple homicide I had, Cheryl, and the murder location was on a playground at about 11 p.m. on a Sunday night in a housing project. And there had been literally, you know, hundreds of people in the playground that day. There were hypodermic needles out there,

glassing bags, used condoms, broken glass, very difficult crime scene to process. And not that I think that there are glassing bags and hypodermic needles here, but still you have a lot of challenges in processing this scene. You do. And you also have to keep in mind that Emma checked her pulse and that sort of thing. And so, of course, by her checking her pulse, her DNA may be on her.

To your point, because you and I have worked many, many scenes where a victim could have fallen on something that wasn't associated with this crime at all. But in the beginning, we don't know that. So any cigarette butt, any hypodermic needle, anything that's in or around that scene, we're obviously going to take it. And then later, you know, piece together what's included in this particular event and what's not. Going to make it very, very hard. And again, I've talked about this before. You remember, of course, Cheryl McCollum, the Fulton County Courthouse shooting where there were multiple victims.

Absolutely. By a perp who overpowered a female sheriff on the elevator, even though she was armed, came out, guns a-blazing, gunned down. Our friend that we used to play softball with, Judge Roland Barnes, a sheriff, a beloved court reporter. It just goes on and on. And I remember, as you do, our friend Al Dixon, who worked with me in the DA's office, processing the scene of his friend's murders and how long that took. And just think, that was an enclosed area.

That was in a courtroom. Can you imagine that? Being out in the open trying to get blood off the dirt and off the grass. It's not easy. Now, earlier you heard Alexis Tereschuk state that the friend Emma came up and saw the dog lying there and thought the dog had been run over and hit because there is a street surrounding the park all the way around it. Take a listen to our friend Haley Mason, CBS 46. Now we know why she thought that.

Atlanta police are asking you to take a close look at this picture of Catherine Johns. She was last seen walking her dog late last night near Piedmont Park in Midtown. We're just asking anyone if they saw or heard anything to call 911, call Crime Stoppers. Shortly after 1 o'clock this morning, she was found brutally stabbed to death inside Piedmont Park. Her dog was also killed. Obviously, I'm extremely saddened, shaken up. I mean being in the same age range, living in the same area, also having a dog. Several joggers today telling me they're on edge and want answers. I really hope that they find the person

and you know figure out security around the area. All of us would like to know was this a random act? Was there you know was someone targeted? I mean it, it would just help for us to have peace of mind and have an idea of the threat level and the safety. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. what does it mean that no other similar attack has occurred since katie janice was murdered in such a horrible way i mean let me ask you alexis tereschuk how many times was she stabbed or do we even know According to the autopsy report that the coroner published, she was stabbed over 50 times, multiple times in her head and her chest and her torso, just over 50 times, in and out, all in her back, in the front of her chest, in her head. And there have been some reports that, in fact, that there was a word carved in her chest and it spelled out fat, F-A-T. I'm just taking that in. Well, I find that hard to believe, Nancy. This is Dale Carson. I find that

really hard to believe. To begin with, clearly someone had an extreme animus toward the victim because facial strikes and the number of stabs tends to indicate a familiarity and a hostility toward that individual. And if stabbed 50 times, you could spell almost anything out on the body. It depends on how deep the cuts were as to whether or not the individual had the intent to spell out a word or whether this is just hyperbole. You know, Dr. Kendall Crowns is joining me, the chief medical examiner for Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth, lecturer, University of Texas and Texas A&M, University of Texas Medical Branch. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us. Now, before I go to you with the question, Dr. Crowns, let me clarify.

Dale Carson, I understand you are a JD, not an MD. Is that correct? That would be entirely correct. Okay. Not that I would ever say zip it, shut your pie hole, or keep your thoughts to yourself when it comes to medical opinions because I would never be so rude but Dr. Kendall Crowns you have Dale Carson telling you that the medical examiner must be wrong in the the mentioning of FAT being carved on her chest although I think Dale Carson actually has a really good point. With 50 stab wounds to the chest and the face, which is really bizarre. I'm going to have to bring in our shrink, Karen Stark, on that.

How could you make that out? That someone had actually etched the word fat, F-A-T, onto her chest. How could you make that out amidst so many stab wounds? The point Dale Carson made is well taken. But is there a way to decipher that, Dr. Crowns? So, my opinion would be

the fact that, yes, I mean, all due respect to Mr. Carson, the amount of stab wounds could be something personal. Or it could be associated with what I commonly see with these multiple overkill cases is methamphetamine. Usually

when someone's on methamphetamine they do a lot of crazy stuff. Now as far as the spelling out of words it would be hard to stab someone in enough of a pattern to make it look like someone, like you've spelled out a word. The description of the injuries on the body to the abdomen where the F-A-T is spelled out are large and sized wounds or slashing wounds.

And there's not a lot of other injuries in the area. So to me, I've seen words spelled out on bodies before and it's usually, well, I'm going to say it's always purposeful and I wouldn't say you could get enough of a randomness to spell out F-A-T on a body if you were just flashing the person up. So to me, it's probably purposeful because the incised wounds themselves intersecting like they are making an F and an A and a T, I think that is something purposeful. According to what we have learned, Cheryl McCollum, she had wounds in the shape of the letters F-A in the middle and T, F-A is on the middle and right side of her lower chest and upper abdomen.

And T is on the left side of her lower chest. Correct. Nancy, you and I have seen thousands of stab injuries, thousands. Never have you thought you saw a word that wasn't deliberate. Never. had defensive wounds as well. But the most critical for me about those three letters is she was hemorrhaging when it happened. She was bleeding, which means she was still alive when that occurred. I like to talk to you, Dale Carson, for a reason. Very often I agree with you and you have insights into cases, especially remember when you were commenting on the Gabby Petito Brian Laundrie case, you came out with some incredible ideas that nobody else had had. But the way you're talking about this, I've got to disagree with you because you're making it

seem as if, you know how you look up at the sky and you go, oh, that looks like a French poodle. You say there's no way that a medical examiner could look at all of these stab wounds and see the letters F-A-T. You're acting like, oh, that just is a random pattern amidst all these stab wounds. They just happen to spell the word fat. And I disagree with you. I mean, they clearly could see F, A, and then over here, T. And as Cheryl McCollum correctly points out, this was done while she's still bleeding, which means she was alive. Well, I don't have access to the photographs. I don't have access to the depth of those cuts that allegedly spell out fat. And clearly, if that's the case and she was obese, then somebody has some direct personal knowledge. I'm looking right at her.

This is the weird part, Dale Carson. I'm looking at her right now. I'm looking at the particular picture of her entering Piedmont Park, holding the the dog which i'm going to circle back on because this person stabbed the dog dead too that's why emma thought the dog had been run over when she was trying to retrace her roommate's steps i'm looking at her walking into the park with the dog on a leash in her left hand she's not fat she looks perfectly normal she weighs 155 pounds according to the autopsy yeah she doesn't look fat at all you're making the assumption that that it's they're calling her fat it could be also initial like someone signing their word you always have to consider that as well but then you would expect a repetition of this at some

other point and a connection between those killings and this one. And we don't have that. Not necessarily. Not necessarily. Maybe this is the first one or maybe this one in particular he felt like or she felt like signing. It has no rhyme or reason, especially if you throw in methamphetamine. There's never any rhyme or reason to anything. Yeah, I want to support that, Nancy.

Okay, yeah, Karen Stark, I was going to circle back to you about why did you have to stab the dog dead too. But, I mean, Carson and Crowns have a really good point. With me is Karen Stark, New York psychologist. You can find her at karenstark.com. Karen with a C. Renowned in her field. Joining us from Manhattan, Karen Stark. Let's start with, forget about the dog for right now.

We'll circle back to the dog. But what is he saying? Karen Stark, the killer wanted to sign his work like what, Banksy? I don't think these are anybody's initials. Although none of it makes sense nancy which really leads me to believe that that analysis of someone on drugs i don't know if i agree with you guys about drugs jackie's saying no and i said i say no because um if you're that high on meth how are you going to chase down a dog number one but that said what about jody Arias Travis Alexander was stabbed 28 times I believe and

shot in the head she wasn't on meth she was just mean pure evil so I don't know that this necessarily means somebody's on meth I normally would agree with you because that is real anger when you see somebody who's stabbing like that but there's there's an aspect of this that sounds like somebody was randomly it doesn't sound to me personally that they were after her why would they want to kill the dog the dog's on a leash i mean i just i just get this image of someone out of their mind furiously like stabbing okay so this is a meth freak how come they haven't been caught yet? I mean, they're not that smart. They call them meth heads for a reason. They're out of their minds. How can a meth head elude the cops? Jump in, Carson. I agree with you. This is nobody's

initials. I disagree with you that it's not really the letters F-A-T. Go ahead. There are two points here. One is that there seemed to be a cutting of the woman before all of this as a body mutilation, which indicates that she has some extreme trauma perhaps in her past, and that may be connected to the killer. So when you find that on a victim's body and you find old scarring, that's a clue. And the second thing about this is both her breasts were cut. That's another indication of a sexual involvement or an individual who has some bent towards sexual proclivities in an evil way. Okay, Alexis Tereschuk, I know you said torso, but you didn't specifically say she was stabbed in her breasts. Well, her breasts are in her torso.

So, yes, she was. Okay, here's another wannabe MD. I'm just going to jump on the bandwagon, too, and start prescribing medication. But you know what, Alexis? You're right. You're absolutely right. You're correct. So to Dr. Kendall Crowns, Alexis and Dale Carson are right.

She's stabbed everywhere. Would you say that the stab wounds to the breast indicate some type of a sexual sadism? It could, but the problem is with all the amount of stab wounds, it's just part of a cluster of findings. Looking at what the descriptions are, one to three, three and one-eighth inch in size with a left breast and a five-sixteenth inch inch wound the areola of the left breast so it's you've got some fairly small wounds it's not like they were

cutting the breast off so usually when I've seen sexual mutilation they either cut the areola the nipples off as well as cutting the entire breast off to me this just looks like it's part of the cluster of the slashing and stabbing that's going on. Nancy, I've got to jump in. Wait, wait, wait. Feel free to jump in. I've got to ask Crowns a question. You know, that just rolled off the tip of your tongue about how cutting off breasts and cutting off nipples.

When you go home, what do you do? I'm just curious. How do you get all that out of your head, or do you? Well, I go home, I garden, I swim, I spend time with my family. So I try not, I put it in a box and just go home and don't think about it. Yeah, I guess you have to. You know, people have asked me the same thing, and it really helped me when I had John, David, and Lucy, the twins,

because I don't want them to have a mom that's constantly thinking about murder. And I would say that's probably, and you know me well, Cheryl and Karen and Alexis, that was probably the first time I ever turned it off. When I would come home, like Crowns is saying, it's when I finally had the twins, who I thought deserved a more normal mommy. Okay, there you go. I was just curious, Kendall Crowns, because the way you said that, it was like, eh, you should cut off the breast with the nipple. like it was no big deal, but okay.

Cheryl McCollum, jump in before I have to analyze Kendall Crowns. Okay, I'm not qualified for that. Go ahead. Well, I think this is something we can all agree with. This was overkill. So you're talking about a killer that took extra time, that had nothing to do with murder. This was not all about killing her. He could have just cut her throat like he

did the dog and move on. What he did was unnecessary to complete a murder. When you talk about the physical torture, the psychological torture, the humiliation, all of that plays a part. If you've got somebody and you have mutilated their breast even slightly, you've pulled their pants down, you've written something on their body, all of that is to humiliate her. Were her pants pulled down? Yes. That is, to me, not a meth head. Guys, take a listen to Zach Summers, CBS 46. Atlanta police were called to the park in Midtown around 1 a.m. and found the body of Catherine Janis.

Her dog was also killed. One of the last known sightings of the two was near 10th and Piedmont. It's not surprising that she would have been out. Clayton Skinner was a regular customer of Janis'. She was a bartender at Camp Enola. Skinner says most people who knew her called her Katie. She was a genuinely shy, sweet, kind person. Skinner, who also lives in Midtown, says he often saw Janice walking her dog in the neighborhood. She routinely walked her dog later at night because she typically worked night shift. Routine, routine. She often walked her dog at night when she got off from bartending. Same route. And we know that's a big no-no in the crime world. And I'm guilty of it too. I very often jog or walk the same route. So anyone that had been watching her from the bar

knew what she was going to do. If they had watched her even one or two nights before, which adds a whole nother layer of complexity as to who the killer is. Now, you heard Cheryl McCollum say he and I think she's right. I do not think this is the work of a woman. Now, of course, you have an aberration in killers such as Jody Arias and others that kill in a way that is traditionally, statistically, a male homicide. This case seems to be the work of a man.

Now, you may be wondering, how was her body located? Take a listen to Michael Seiden, WSB-TV. This Crime Stoppers poster shows Katie walking with Bowie near Piedmont Park, but when she didn't return home, Emma became worried, so she pinged Katie's phone, which led her to the park. We don't know how long Katie laid here. We don't know that, but Emma came up at 12 57. Right now, APD detectives are working around the clock, interviewing dozens of neighbors and reviewing hours of surveillance footage. This heinous crime has left an entire community on edge as police continue to search for a murderer.

The fact that we don't even know who did this, and it's just sad. It's sick and it's sad. The weeks have turned into months. The months have now turned into nearly a year. July 28 will be one year without this case being solved. I find that really difficult to understand with the likelihood of DNA there. Alexis Tereshuk, do we know whether the dog who was then murdered bit the assailant? Is there any chance there was DNA in the dog's mouth?

They had anticipated that there would be DNA, but the police have not released any information about DNA that they obtained on the scene at all. They have not said that they're looking for a male based on the dna a woman based on the dna they have not released any details about it but for sure the dog would have done that this is a pit bull and they are not inherently that but this dog would have protected its owner and she was found you know 100 feet away so the dog certainly could have been hurt first and then she was dragged away yeah the scenario i mean i think they would have been hurt first and then she was dragged away. Yeah, the scenario. I mean, I think they would have been able to tell if she had been dragged. Dale Carson, agree or disagree?

We saw that with Gabby Petito. I agree with that entirely. I mean, the distance is important, but dogs are much more mobile than human beings. The other thing that really is interesting to point out is that in knife work generally, you're going to have some DNA exchange. But finding that DNA on a body that's been stabbed numerous times is difficult. It takes time. And there's no reason to release that DNA evidence as they try to match the alleles with other individuals. Exactly.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, it's coming up on a year and no resolution in the murder of this lovely young woman, Katie Janis. Take a listen to Haley Mason, CBS 46. Just minutes before this 911 call was made. You said somebody's dead in Piedmont Park? Yes, ma'am. Please send help. Please. All right, yes, ma'am.

I'm going to send help to you. Oh, my God. Police say people were inside Piedmont Park, at least six. Possible witnesses, police pointing out on surveillance video. Releasing these new, higher-quality photos today, police honing in on talking to this possible witness, who ran by the front of the park closest to the time the gruesome murder was discovered just yards away seemingly unaware we broke down the timeline showing the jogger near the park entrance at 12 46 a.m less than 25 minutes before the body was discovered and police

recalled at 1 11 a.m last wednesday police telling me they can't confirm if the jogging man was a witness to the actual crime at this time but they tell us he came forward and has been cooperating. He is not a suspect. Okay, Alexis Tereschuk, what can you tell me about that? Well, the police have at this point in the year of this investigation where nobody has been arrested, they have ruled out so far all. Everybody that they originally thought was a person of interest, they have said is not. So even though they're saying they're focusing on technology, they don't appear to have to know who killed her at all. Okay, guys, take a listen to our Cut 25. This is Ron James at 11 Align.

We're hearing from a family member of Katie. John is just hours after an autopsy revealed the final brutal moments of her life. The report finds Katie just 40 years old, was stabbed more than 50 times and left to die along with her dog in Piedmont Park in July. Her death now ruled a homicide. The report says the letters F-A-T were carved into her chest. The father of Katie's partner, Emma, tells 11 Alive exclusively he's devastated to read just how brutal and extensive her injuries were. It's just heartbreaking to know that that's what she suffered through.

A very angry, disturbed person is the only thing I can think of that could do so much damage to someone. So far, no arrests have been made in more than 100 days since Katie's killing. Her family now worried her killer is out there somewhere and the case may be going cold. There is still a killer on the loose that could do this any night of the week in the city of Atlanta. And they have they have they don't have any idea who it is. Not what we want to hear.

The awful truth is there doesn't seem to be any resolution on the horizon. The city of Atlanta, particularly Midtown Atlanta, Piedmont Park, being terrorized as the one-year anniversary approaches of the murder of Katie Janis. Now, we have learned one thing take a listen to our cut 27 from fox 5 the initial reaction of the dog it was a pit bull now that's a very loyal protective breed of dog to not have the dog engage in some type of protective behavior of its master is interesting, and it certainly moves us away from the stranger-on-stranger theory of the case. There's some credence to the idea that this crime was committed by somebody who's familiar with the deceased and familiar with the deceased dog.

The act was what police call an overkill. When you see multiple stab wounds, that takes time and that takes emotion because it's beyond just killing the person. It is a desire to inflict as much possible damage. Leads us to believe that the individual who committed the crime knew the victim. Okay, Karen Stark joining me, renowned New York psychologist. Karen, what do you make of that? Well, I don't know if I agree, Nancy, and normally I really would, but somebody taking a chance like that in a park, I realized it was nighttime, but there was that guy, for instance, who was driving. Anybody could have come across that scene. There's just this feeling for me, and I could be wrong,

but my gut tells me that there was something about this that was unplanned. It just seems so random. And carving the word, I just, it just doesn't, I don't know, unless there's something that we don't understand about her past. Well, I've got another question. Dale Carson, if I were going to murder someone with a knife, which is a whole different thing than from shooting someone at a distance, I certainly wouldn't pick someone with a pit bull. Absolutely not. And you know, it's interesting that in this particular case, the individual, quite frankly, must have known who this woman was to show and exhibit such anger in overkilling as they did. And of course,

this is the act of an organized, not a disorganized, but an organized killer. And disorganized killer would leave plenty of evidence. We would know who this is. This person is organized. And if I had to guess, I would say, pardon me, that it's somebody in her history going way back to the time that she was younger and was abused by someone. If that is in fact the case. That's really reaching back.

What about the theory, Alexis Drozdchuk, that someone knew her from that bar? They thought they knew her anyway. They knew her enough to know she goes jogging or walking the dog every night after she gets off where she would be, where her route was, and cared enough to kill the dog that that suggests to me that they did know her they could have known her yeah but the the dog had to be disabled first so if a creepy person just ran up to her they they would grab the dog first you don't know if the dog was on a leash or not some dogs are really well-behaved dogs and don't need a leash other dogs you know or you know she could let him off the leash when she goes into the park, but keep them on the leash on the street. The thing is, though, she actually didn't do the same route every single night. That's what her girlfriend said. She said, you know, she would just sort of walk wherever she felt like walking. There was no plan ever. She just walked this way. She walked that way. So it perhaps was not somebody, although

they could have followed her from the bar that night, but it wasn't a set route that she ever did the thing about midtown is and where they live they live close to the park if you are walking through that area is one of my regular jogging routes you can go up fourthth Street as opposed to 5th Street or Argonne versus Penn. Let me compare it to a park in Washington. Remember how Lafayette designed the city of Washington and all the roads lead to the center? Here, all the roads, many, many of the streets in Midtown lead to the park. So whether she went down 4th or 5th, Penn or Argon, she's going to end up in the park area no matter what. I've got a theory. What do you think about

this, Dale Carson? If it is a random person and they have a knife, and I'm going back to the meth head idea, what if she was not the actual first target? What if the dog could have lunged at someone that was already off kilter and they attack the dog and then attack her? I mean, we have no idea what happened. That's an interesting theory and quite possible because any competent owner, and she's been documented as a real dog person, if someone attacked the dog in response to the dog rushing at them, she would almost naturally try to protect the dog as you perhaps would one of your children. Right now, we seem to know less than we did at the very beginning, the one-year mark approaching of this young woman's brutal murder.

If you have information or think you have information, please dial 404-546-4235. Repeat, 404-546-4235. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crumstory signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.