Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Vallow children go missing, mommy and new hubby found in luxury Hawaii resort.

Episode Date: January 29, 2020

After months of searching, authorities located the mother of two children who disappeared in September. Lori Vallow, dubbed the "Doomsday cult" mother is in Hawaii. Her two missing children are still unaccounted for.Where are the children?Joining Nancy to discuss: Jason Oshins: New York Defense Attorney Bobby Chacon: Former Special Agent FBI, current star of FB Watch Series "Curse of Akakor"  Dr. Bethany Marshall: Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, Karen Smith: Los Angeles Forensics Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of "Shattered Souls" podcast Nate Eaton: Reporter for East Idaho News Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Where are two Idaho children, Tylee Ryan and J.J. Vallow? It gets curiouser and curiouser to steal from Alice in Wonderland. And I got a really bad feeling. I don't like to jinx the case at the get-go by saying I've got a bad feeling, but I can tell you this much. When police have to give Mommy an ultimatum and a court order telling her to produce her two children to show they're alive,

and she doesn't have a response. That's not good. Where are Tylee Ryan and J.J. Vallow? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Where are your kids? No comment? They've been missing for four months. You have nothing to say. The mother of two Idaho children who have been missing since September

refused to tell a reporter where they are. East Idaho News tracked down Lori Daybell and her husband Chad in Hawaii, and tried to get answers from them after local police in Kauai reportedly searched their home and vehicle. Just tell us where they are. Chad, where are Lori's kids? Lori Daybell is the mother of seven-year-old Joshua J.J. Vallow and 17-year-old Tylee Ryan, who haven't been seen in months.

The children's grandparents are offering a $20,000 reward for information leading to the kids. You are hearing our friends at Inside Edition. Where are two Idaho children Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. With me, an all-star panel, Jason Oceans, renowned New York defense attorney, Bobby Chacon, former FBI star of Facebook Watch series, Curse of Akakor. You know her well, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst to the stars in Beverly Hills. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Karen Smith, L.A., California forensics expert, lecturer, University of Florida, and host of Shattered Souls podcast. But right now to Nate Eaton, investigative reporter with EastIdahoNews.com.

Nate, take a listen to our friends at VALO at NBC12. As for Lori and two of her kids, JJ and Tylee, mystery surrounds where they are. It's like an emotional roller coaster. JJ's grandma K doesn't know what happened. What we do know is that the two children were last seen in Idaho on September 23rd. And after Val's death, Lori married Chad Daybell, both members of an extreme religious group. They were a doomsday cult that they just were always preparing for the end of the world. And Chad and Lori's wedding happening just weeks after Daybell's wife died mysteriously in her sleep. It's yet another death under investigation in a case full of twists

that now involves the search for JJ and Tyle Lee, as no one has seen them in nearly four months. That's our friend at NBC 12, that was Michael Doudna, but with me right now, investigative reporter Nate Eaton, EastIdahoNews.com. Nate, I was trying to count up the dead bodies connected to these people, and I'm not saying victims of these two people, I'm saying connected to them. You know, like Jessica Fletcher on Murder, She Wrote. You know, if you just meet her in the street, you're probably going to die. All right. Everybody surrounding Lori Vallow and her new husband, Chad Daybell, drops like flies. Now, tell me if I'm wrong, Nate. So first of all, you have her, one of her, I think,

four or five husbands. And I think his last name was ryan and that's who she has a grown son by all right they're out of the picture because he's dead the dad is dead allegedly by a heart problem and now his body's been cremated so rut row no autopsy there all right then we have her other husband valo he dead. He got shot by her brother. Now, the only two that know what really happened are Lori Vallow and her brother, but whoops, then he's dead. Then we have Chad Daybell, her new husband's wife. She's dead. She, quote, died in her sleep. And then he, the husband, Chad Daybell, decided he would refuse an autopsy.

So we don't really know why Chad Daybell's wife died. But I do know two weeks later, he married Lori Vallow. And what else do I know? Let's see. That's first husband, next husband, wife, brother. That's four. Okay, Nate Eaton. I know that the wife's body has been exhumed like December 10 or 12, and we're waiting on her autopsy reports.

I find it very hard to believe, Nate Eaton. She just died in her sleep. Well, she was really healthy, Nancy. I mean, this was a woman in her 40s, really. As a horse, healthy as a horse. She was a young woman. Yeah, she was actually training to do a race, to do a run. So she falls asleep one night and doesn't wake up. They call the police. Hold on. nate nate nate dr bethany marshall i sleep with one eye open because the story's just like this i mean how can you go to sleep with your husband beside you when you've got somebody like chad daybell and laurie vallow hanging around the bed i'm going

to tell you this is a very scary story isn't our bed supposed to be the safest place this is the least safe place in both of the couple's houses uh yes sleeping with one eye open is a very good idea and of course you wouldn't want to be their children i mean these two don't even know how to raise a potted plant you know nate eaton i've got so many questions but i keep interrupting you bad bad i'm hitting my hand right now because i've got to ask you about this doomsday cult. Now, to top it all off, Nate Eaton, she, the mom, Lori Vallow, we're looking for her two children, Tylee and JJ. She gets involved in some doomsday cult with Chad Daybell. Is it true he's written 25 books on the end of the world? Yeah, he's really big into the end of times. And Lori Vallow, she believes that the world will end this July, according to divorce papers that were filed last year with her previous husband, that she will usher in the second coming of Jesus Christ, that she has been reincarnated, and that she is a chosen God.

And so that's who she thinks she is and that the end of the world is coming and that the world needs to be ready. I certainly am no Bible scholar but I do know this. According to Christ, no one will know when he will come back. Bam. End of story. So I guess these people have the inside track. Nate

Eaton, I want to apologize for interrupting you so many times. I want you to take it from the top. Tell me everything. Don't leave anything out. And Bobby Chacon, you better not interrupt him. Okay, go, Nate Aiden. All right, so let's just start with Chad and Lori.

You set it up. They were married a couple of months ago, two weeks after Chad's wife died in her sleep. Oh, two weeks. I'm sorry. That was Bobby Chacon. wife dies in her sleep. Two weeks! I'm sorry! That was Bobby Chacon. She dies in her sleep. Two weeks later, he marries Lori Vallow. I mean, she's good looking, but she ain't all that.

Okay, go ahead. So they get married. You know, Chad has children with his first wife, Tammy. They're adult children now. Tammy has these other two children from previous spouses. They come up to Idaho. The grandparents of the two... Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

How many spouses? Just fill me in. Four, five previous husbands? Well, this is now her fifth. Chad is her fifth husband. So she's been married five times. I blame that all on the men. There was clearly something wrong with those men because I mean, you know, how could it be her? Didn't she tell this husband, if you get in the way of me and the doomsday and leading the 144,000 to the new Jerusalem, I'll kill you. Did I get that right out of the divorce papers? Yeah, that's what the first husband was concerned about. He tried to get custody of these kids, Nancy. He tried to get custody of them. He was worried for their safety. No, why would anybody believe it was her fault? She had so many divorces? Okay, go ahead, Nate. So the grandparents of these children called the police and said,

we're concerned, we haven't seen him. JJ would call Grandma multiple times a day. He has autism. He'd call her on the iPad and they'd FaceTime nonstop, one after the other after the other for a couple of seconds. Suddenly that stops. Cold. Tylee, who was very active. Okay, wait a minute. That is

significant, Nate, because I have a little nephew that's Downs, and he texts me all the time. Sometimes it's the very same text, and I'll send back a picture, I'll re-text back and forth, but then when he doesn't text, I know something is wrong. That's a big indicator. Where are Tylee and JJ? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. July 11th, 2019. At this point, the kids were doing well, but they witnessed the death of their father, Charles Vallow, in Chandler, Arizona. He was shot and killed by Lori Vallow's brother,

a man named Alex Cox. Alex said the shooting was in self-defense, but the case is still under investigation. This incident started with an argument, a family argument. Fast forward now to September 23rd. This is the last time anyone reported seeing the children, JJ and Tylee, at school in Rexburg, Idaho,

but nobody reported them missing until about two months later. We'll get to that in a little bit, but first let's talk about Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy. Her dad tells me she was alive and well on October 4th. She drove down from Rexburg to visit her parents in Springville, Utah, but two weeks later on October 19th, the parents got a call from Chad saying Tammy went to bed coughing and never woke up. At the time, doctors said she died from natural causes at the age of 49. Our friends at Fox 13 Utah, that was Adam Herberts

with me right now, a reporter from EastIdahoNews.com, Nate Eaton. Nate, if you don't mind, tee it up at the get-go and start over. Thanks. All Thanks Alright so we have Chad and Lori Daybell They are a couple that were married in October Just two weeks after Chad Daybell's Wife passes away In her sleep She's a healthy woman she's in her 40s They have children she was the school librarian Everybody loved her at the school

Chad gets married To Lori Daybell Or Lori Vallow at the time. Lori has two children, JJ and Tylee. The grandparents of these two children become a little concerned because they haven't heard from them. JJ was a kid that would call nonstop to FaceTime grandma. Suddenly those calls stopped. Tylee, very active on social media like your typical teenager.

Those posts stopped. Police go over to their Idaho home. They ask to see the children. The children aren't there. Detectives say that Lori said, oh, they're with relatives. They call the relatives. The children aren't there. Police come out and say that Lori has lied to them. She will not tell them the location of her two children. They put out an alert at the end of December saying we need help finding these children. The parents then take off. And I think we have not known where those children, those parents are. And we found them in Hawaii. Princeville, Hawaii. Do you say Cowie? Is that how, is that the island of Cowie and it's Prince principal? On Kauai. Yeah, Kauai, yep.

Okay, yeah, okay. I knew that. I was just testing you to see if you knew. Nate Eaton with me, eastidahonews.com. And I'm going to bring in the panel in just one moment. There's just so much information. Tell me about the Doomsday Cult. Now, when I researched it, the first thing that pops up is a website it's prepare the people or prepare a people i've seen it both ways and the minute i go to it online a site pops

up that says we are graphic designers we are not a doomsday cult so what is the correct name of the doomsday cult tell me about the cult that lori valo has gotten into under the influence of sphingali chad daybell his wife dies in her sleep and two weeks later he marries lori you said lori has two children i think she has three but two with her that are the issue here. The older one, last name Ryan, is, you know, I think in his 20s, and his dad is the one that died of natural causes and got cremated immediately. Nate, tell me about this doomsday cult. So, Lori was really big into the end of times, and it's called preparing a people. Now now they say they are not a cult but they are simply a prepper website you know how to how to stop you stock up on your

your uh supplies for the end of times she got involved in this it's likely that she took this to the extreme okay wait nate nate you're the investigative reporter. I thought at the end of time, the world basically blows up. So how are Campbell's soup cans in your basement going to help you when that happens? Well, you know, that's a good question. A lot of people believe that by stocking up on supplies in case there's a famine, in case, you know, there's floods, that you can't get to your grocery store and stock up on food that by having that in your home you can you know have something to to have that a lot of people believe in storing guns wait now isn't this the part where the zombies break in and get your food and eat your children oh wait i'm sorry that was a different doomsday scenario okay back to this doomsday

scenario go ahead now well yeah laurie la, Lori was big into this, and we know that from divorce papers that her previous husband, who is now dead, filed saying that he was concerned for these children because Lori believed she was one of the 140,000 people who would usher in the second coming of Jesus Christ. Excuse me, right there. You know, Nate, you've got a really good reputation. It's 144,000 people. I'm sorry to answer. Yes, you're right. I mean, get it together, Eaton.

Now, wait a minute, Nate, Nate, Nate. This is a sect, an offshoot of the Church of Latter-day Saints. Okay? So it's an offshoot of them. I'm sure the Latter-day Saints are just cringing at the suggestion that these guys are part of them. But it's more than just, hey, there might be a famine or a flood. She actually thinks that she's sealed forever in marriage to the ancient prophet Moroni. You know, the one that the Mormons think found the golden tablets and then whoops, he lost them.

That guy, the one with the convictions for fraud, him, Moroni. Okay, not judging, none of my business. So she thinks she's married to Moroni. And she thinks she's going to help lead the 144,000 chosen to the new Jerusalem. That's more than just a famine, Nate. Yeah, you're right about that. She also thinks that the world's ending in July. So you've got five months here, the next five months. To get it together. Yes. To be ready. Five months to get it together. Like if it's true, I'm certainly not going to be laughing in july so nate tell me about there's

only in my mind two scenarios nate the cops i understand it all started with the grandparents saying we haven't seen our children cops go look the cops go look at their home in arizona the children aren't there she mommy lies and says they're visiting in arizona overnight cops find out the children are not visiting in arizona they come back the next day laurie valo is gone she's hightailed it at that point they leave for hawaii and they stay missing for two months a search warrant was affected in princeville and i bet it was to look and see if there was any indication the children were there. I see only two possibilities, Nate. Either the children are dead, God forbid,

or the children are bunked up with this doomsday cult. Nate, what do you think? Well, Nancy, if I asked you right now where are your children, I think you could give me an answer. I think any parent out there. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I know exactly where they are. I even know what their socks and their underwear and their belt and their clothes look like

because I set them out the night before. Yes, I know where they are. And if I'm wrong, may I be struck dead right now. Go ahead. Yeah, so we found them on Hawaii. And I asked Lori a half dozen times to a dozen times, where are your children? And she's not saying, and that's what's so frustrating. Wait, that was you? That was me. That was you that kept saying, I'm so proud of you. Keep going. So the detectives have been

trying to get this answer. You know what they even said? FaceTime, put them on FaceTime, have them hold up a newspaper with today's date. We just want to see the kids. That's all you have to do. And she's not talking and Chad isn't talking. So, you know, heaven forbid they could be dead somewhere, anywhere. We hope not. And I hope not. Or as you said, they might be hidden somewhere.

But it is concerning that there's been no social media, nothing. It went cold with Tylee, and she was always on her social media platforms posting stuff nonstop. It's also my understanding with Tylee that she may have texted a friend from her phone. Guys, we are on the search for Tylee and JJ, and right now it is not looking good because even Mommy won't reveal where her children are. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY.

THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY.

THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY.

THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE FAMILY. THE LAST THREE WEEKS, THEY'VE BEEN IN THE HOSPITAL FOR A LONG TIME. WE'LL GET MORE INSIGHT ON WHAT MIGHT BE GOING ON. TO MY RIGHT I HAVE LAURIE. SAY HELLO, LAURIE. HELLO, PEOPLE.

THIS IS A CLIP FROM LAURIE VALO'S RELIGIOUS PODCAST RECORDED BEFORE SHE AND HER NEW HUSBAND CHAD DABEL STARTED RUNNING FROM POLICE ACCUSED OF LYING ABOUT THE LOCATION OF HER TWO

MISSING CHILDREN. IF YOU DID SOMETHING BAD YESTERDAY, THE LORD WANTS YOU TO SAY YOU'RE SORRY TODAY AND JUST DO BETTER TOMORROW. I SPENT THE LAST 11 YEARS OF MY LIEN SORRY ABOUT MY SON. I'M SORRY ABOUT MY SON. THE LORD WANTS YOU TO SAY YOU'RE SORRY TODAY AND JUST DO BETTER TOMORROW.

I SPENT THE LAST 11 YEARS OF MY LIFE SPENDING TIME WITH LAURIE AND HER NOW DECEASED HUSBAND CHARLES. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE KIDS. I KNOW THERE'S PEOPLE WHO DO AND THEY'RE NOT TALKING.

BRANDON BOUDREAU WHO USED TO BE MARRIED TO LAURIE VALO'S NIECE SAYS HE WAS PART OF THE FAMILY. HE BAPTIZED LAURIE'S DAUGHTER TYLIE RYAN AND LO and loved JJ, her adopted son, with autism. I don't know why they're doing what they're doing. It doesn't make any sense. All joking aside about far-fetched ideas and doomsday predictions, these children are missing. And you just heard the voice of Brandon Boudreaux, who was married to Lori Vallow Daybell's niece well they're split up after the niece joined the cult

and somebody driving the dead husband's car took a shot at Brandon so I mean with a gun so this is extremely dangerous if you have any information please dial 208-359-3000. Back to Nate Eaton, who's just about to head off to the police station. Nate from eastidahonews.com. You left off with you going to Hawaii and confronting Lori Vallow. I want to know something I can't learn from just watching it on TV. Tell me her demeanor. Tell me exactly what happened.

Well, I'm going to tell you, one of the detectives said that when they opened that car door where they put her, they put her in a police car for a while. She looked at that detective and he said it was as if lasers were coming out of her eyes. She was stone cold, his words, like a snake. Oh, you just put chills down my arms because a couple of times in court, Nate, I would look over at a defendant and they would look at me like that. It's not even a human look. So what was her demeanor when you were asking her questions? Tell me about the gated village where they were living. So they lived in this gated community.

The neighbors tell us that they were rarely there. They moved in in December. It was one of those units that didn't have furniture, so they had furniture delivered, and they would come late. They were rarely seen. The neighbors said, you know, when most people go to Hawaii, they're happy, they're carefree. Oh, we live on an island. It's great. They're friendly. Not these guys. They were very guarded. They were rarely home, And any interaction was short, superficial to the point. Neighbors had no idea that they were even on the run, that they were, you know, looking for these children until we showed up and the police showed up and served these warrants the other day. You said they'd hardly ever see them. Are you telling me they kept odd hours? Because that's a stereotypical clue.

People come in late at night. The neighbors don't see them. What can you tell me about their habits? Yeah, that's exactly what you said. They were coming late. It's like they didn't even live there, that they maybe had another home. Now, we know that Lori loved to stay in a resort just down the street from their home. And so she was often there at that resort coming and going. In fact, that resort a year ago, once her previous husband filed for a divorce, she showed up with Kylie and they stayed for a month in that resort. Where are they getting the money for all this? I'd like to go stay at a resort for a month, Nate. Well, you know, sometimes when people die, they have big life insurance policies and there's some speculation that a lot of the former spouses may have had some money in their debt. Nate Eaton, the clock is ticking down. I

know you're heading to the police station right now. So give me a data dump as fast as you can. Tomorrow, the deadline, in just a few hours, they're supposed to be in court with the children. Nate, what more can you tell me before you rush off? Well, the judge has said that Lori has until Thursday to show up with those two children in Idaho. If not, a warrant could be issued for her arrest, or there could be a civil penalty filed against her, or the judge could hold off and decide not to do anything. We may not know because most cases involving children are sealed, but in this particular case, the prosecutor made the decision to release that one bit of information that the judge had issued

the order to get the kids there, just in case anybody out there has the kids, they can get the kids there, and then hopefully there there has the kids they can get the kids there and then hopefully there can be some answers nate eaton is it true that in recent months laurie valo and her new husband chad daybell have said that laurie's daughter tyler was dead i have not heard that i have not i have heard that reported in multiple spots they they've told people the daughter's dead and she has no other minor children. Nate Eaton, just the whole thing is astounding me. Is there any hope that the children are still alive, Nate? You know, we hope that they are. The police hope that they are. The grandparents are holding

out hope that they are. But again, as we talked about earlier, it's a simple question. Where are your kids? If you have nothing to hide, just tell us. With me, Nate Eaton, reporter, eastidahonews.com. He's heading to the police station right now. Take a listen to our friends at NBC12. Police searching for an Idaho brother and sister confirmed they're now investigating a string of mysterious deaths in the family. The whereabouts of the parents are unknown, but investigators believe Mother Lori Vallow knows where the children are or what happened to them. Police are now looking into three deaths,

Vallow's brother along with the couple's former spouses, even exhuming the body of husband Chad Daybell's first wife. There was a number of issues that just didn't look right. 17-year-old Ty Lee and 7-year-old JJ last seen in September. Their grandmother is worried sick. What kind of mother won't cooperate with the authorities? Brandon Boudreau married into the family and believes Lori joined a religious group founded by Daybell, who has authored books about doomsday. I don't know why they're doing what they're doing. It doesn't make any sense. I don't know what happened to those kids. I know that there's people who do and they're not talking.

Boudreaux says he was almost killed in a drive-by shooting. Police confirmed they are investigating that incident too. You were just hearing our friend Matt Gutman over at ABC. The search is on for two children, Tylee Ryan and Joshua J.J. Vallow. You notice the two different last names. Tylee's dad, she has another brother who's older, lives on his own. He's emancipated. He. Vallow. You notice the two different last names. Tylee's dad, she has another brother who's older, lives on his own. He's emancipated. He's grown up, died ostensibly of a heart attack, and then he was suddenly cremated. We've got a string of four deaths surrounding these two,

and then throw in the monkey wrench of a doomsday cult in the heart of the investigation, the missing children. Straight out to Bobby Chacon, former special agent FBI, star of Facebook Watch series Curse of Akakor. Bobby, you know, I hardly even know where to start on this one. And when I'm like that, I just dive in. Let's just start with what's most important right now, and that's where are the children?

How do we find out if they're dead or alive? That's right, Nancy. And the reason we don't know where to start is that you have five, basically, mysteries that are all intersecting. Any one of these five incidents, the four deaths and the missing children are very complex. And the way you start a missing children's case is you go to the last person who would have seen them alive, and that's the mother, and would know where they are. And this is just, it's kind of basic common sense. Why this case is so frustrating is everybody knows that the same thing to do is ask the mother. This mother had custody of these children their whole lives. Where are they? And if you think about whether the mother should or not tell you,

does she have a motive for not saying, well, there's really only one motive she would have to not tell anyone. This is not a custody case any longer. This is simply where are the children? And the only reason she would have to hide that information is if something bad happened to these children at her hands. And that's the really only motivation she would have to hide this information. There's no other motivation that she might have to be hiding the whereabouts of these children. No one's asking to take these children away from her. No one's accusing her of abuse of these children yet.

So there's nothing outstanding right now that would prevent her from telling the police or even motivate her to prevent telling the police where these children are. And that's the huge concern in this case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Along with the investigation into Lori's missing kids, police are also looking into the deaths of the couple's former spouses. Chad's previous wife Tammy died in Rexburg back in October.

Fremont County Sheriff Lynn Humphrey says that death is now considered suspicious. The more we looked into it, the more it became apparent that we needed to take a second look and look a little closer. And so that was the reason for obtaining the court order to exhume the body and have an autopsy performed. Police also say Lori's brother, Alex Cox, shot and killed Lori's former husband in Arizona in July. Cox died shortly after. Police are still investigating those deaths. When her brother shot and killed her ex-husband, there were several people present. To my knowledge, those people are all missing or dead, and the two children being two of those who are missing. Our friends joining us from KTVB 7 in Boise, that was Gretchen Parsons speaking.

Where are Tylee and JJ? We know that Kauai Police served Mommy Lori Vallow and her new husband, Chad Daybell, with search warrants relating to the missing children on Sunday. They've got till tomorrow morning to show up with the children in Idaho. They've been on the run two months after abandoning their home in Idaho when police came to find the children. No arrest warrants yet. If they won't come back home, then there will have to be an extradition process. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. if they won't come back home, then there will have to be an extradition process.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst to the stars in Beverly Hills. You can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I have to start with two things. One, could she be hiding the children? Two, what about this doomsday cult? I mean, the new husband, Chad Daybell, he's had time to write 25 books on the end of time, the end of the world. What about what's happening right now? You know, Nancy, you're so correct. When you have time to write 25 books on the end of time,

you are pretty obsessed with your religion. I mean, he's in some obsessive, crazed state. And you asked about how Lori had all that money to stay at the resort. I don't know when these two have time to work. When do they have time to earn money and to have a productive life? It would seem to be a motivation for killing your spouses for a life insurance policy, just so you could support having so much free time to indulge being active in this cult. But on a more serious note, when a child goes missing and you do a forensic interview of the parents, one of the things you look for is whether or not the parent is attached to the child or to the children and whether or not the mother has basic empathy towards the child, right? So we don't see her crying, asking for the child's safe return, presenting theories about where the children might be, looking upset or distressed.

Instead, she glares at the reporter. So that shows no empathy towards the people who are trying to find her children and no empathy towards the children who are missing. And to my mind, Nancy, that speaks to the fact that they might be dead because that means the mother is simply not attached to her children. And to secrete them away in some doomsday bunker would mean that she would have to care about them. And this mother does not seem to be caring. To Jason Oceans, a renowned defense attorney joining me out of New York, but he practices all over the country. Jason Oceans, they are looking at so many infractions, but the issue is if they don't show up to court tomorrow morning, what can we extradite them with is simply, you know, basically contempt of court.

Now, that's exactly it at the moment until, you know, other charges might be filed. But, you know, just like in the beginning of a civil case and a criminal, you know, this would be the beginning. You know, that aspect of contempt and violating it is going to be, you know, the impetus for, you know, for the judge. And, you know, to get Hawaii to cover that and arrest them and then work on an extradition. So it becomes complicated. When you refer to them as newly

wed, it seems that everything with them is newly dead. Whatever they touch, whatever it is, turns into death. Okay, I didn't know. I actually thought you were above puns but okay go ahead you know that's that's how it seems uh there's uh nothing uh it all seems normal and then as dr bethany said her look the mother's look is it's disassociated i mean she's completely

separated just everything uh with no feeling whatsoever. And you did mention that glaring. I mean, even if you're trying to cover it, you don't do that. You're trying to feign your great caring and help. And, you know, you're trying to throw it off here. There's just no element of that whatsoever. It's just gone. And I do, too, like everyone else, fear for them.

Yeah, we got to have more charges than just a failure to show up court. You're not going to get an extradition from Hawaii on that. It has to be something more like a felony kidnapper abduction of children. That would work. Karen Smith with me, LA, California forensics expert, lecturer, University of Florida, and host of Shattered Souls podcast. Karen, where do we start? Yeah, I need a mind map for this entire case, Nancy. I do not envy the police departments working on this at all. First of all, the missing children are paramount. That's what everybody wants to know. Where are Tylee and JJ? On top of that, we've got four bodies.

They have exhumed the body of Tammy Daybell. Now, she was the wife of Chad, who died under mysterious circumstances at the age of 49, in bed one night. And as the reporter said, she was training for a race. She was healthy. Now, when they exhume her body, that is going to be very difficult. They've used formaldehyde. They flushed all of the blood, the urine, the other biological fluids that would normally be taken at an autopsy. And now they're going to have to deal with tissue samples like lung, kidney, brain, liver, and they're going to have to do microscopy

on those samples. And they're going to have to test for what? They don't even know what they're testing for. Heavy metals, pesticides, opiates, amphetamines, cocaine, nobody even knows what they're testing for. So for toxicologists, this is going to be extraordinarily challenging. Now, former studies have used fixed tissues with formaldehyde, and they have quantitated some illicit substances. So it's possible, difficult, but possible. Now, if they find out that Tammy Daybell did not die of natural causes, that's going to spin the investigation into something like maybe murder. But then they have to go and find out, are they going to charge Chad? Are they going to charge the new wife? Who gets charged with that? What happened? So there's this microcosm of death

on top of these missing two children. So the entire investigation is now going to be spin on its head once they get the results, not only from Tammy Daybell, but they're also looking at Alex Cox's death. Now, I don't believe he wasmed. I believe that was a normal autopsy. So they should be able to get some more information about how he died. Nancy, this is just a spider web of epic proportions in every way. Here's one place we could start. Here's

one place we could start to Bobby Chacon, former FBI star of Facebook Watch series, Crooks of Agakor. Bobby, if they are spending, and I'm just learning this from Nate Eaton, all day into the evening in a resort down the street from their gated community, I go right there. Where have they been holed up? Have they been using phones? Is there a stash there of cell phones, other data? Also, did they rent a room there? I mean, you couldn't just sit

by the pool 10 hours a day every single day that you've been in Hawaii. They're doing something outside the home. And wherever that nest is, we're going to find evidence. Don't end the searches at the condo. Find out where they've been all day long. Also, if there's any way to track where that car has been, follow the money trail. If the children are alive, Jackie Howard just said this here in the studio. She's no detective, but obviously she's right. If the children are alive, they've got to be supported somehow.

Are they sending money somewhere? Are there email communications about her children? Is there a stash of cell phones, burner phones, a laptop, an iPad that's being used elsewhere like at that resort? Bobby, what about it? Yeah, I think you're exactly right, Nancy. I think, in fact, they are probably trying to reestablish their electronic footprint. I'm sure you're right also that they probably have been using burner phones and things that are probably very difficult to trace. So I'm sure the authorities are doing that in Hawaii now, trying to recreate their lives, the last days and weeks and even months now of where they've been, who they've been in contact with. Unfortunately, the sad truth might be if some harm did come to these children and they haven't been seen since September, that any of their activity now may not be related.

I'm sure the authorities will track that down, but we may not have any information related to the children in their most recent activities in their lives. Because if, in fact, they harmed those children back in September, you've got to look at that timeframe to find where the children are if they've moved on. These people are, you know, there's some obviously mental instability in some of these people. And if they harmed those children back in September, they may have moved on from those children in their lives. I mean, obviously, they move on from other people in their lives. Their end of days predictions come true. Anybody that comes into contact with them, their days seem to end, whether it's her former husband, his former wife, her brother, whoever it is, their days end. And so,

you know, I would look at their recent activity, but, you know, something tells me that if those children were harmed back in September, I think these two quite possibly moved on. And so a lot of activity now may not indicate where those children are. Well, you know, I'll just say it out loud. I'll pray it out loud. Lord, wherever they are, please help us find Tylee Ryan and Joshua J.J. Vallow. Tip line 208-359-3000. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crons Story signing off.

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