Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Vegas Politician Claims He's Being Framed for Murder: Jury-GUILTY

Episode Date: August 31, 2024

Jeff German, an investigative reporter for the Las Vegas Review-Journal, was found dead outside his home. Days later, police released surveillance footage of a potential suspect wearing a wide-brimmed straw hat, an orange safety shirt, and black pants, seen walking near the scene. Further investigation revealed that German’s reporting had placed him in conflict with elected Public Administrator Robert Telles. Earlier, German had reported that Telles created a toxic work environment and was having an extramarital affair with an employee. These allegations seemingly contributed to Telles losing his re-election bid. Investigators searched Telles’ home, towing a red SUV and discovering shoes with apparent blood on them. A straw hat matching the one in the video was also found. Both items had been cut up in an attempt to destroy evidence, but DNA under German’s fingernails provided police with crucial evidence. Telles was arrested for German’s murder and has now been convicted. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Matthew Mangino – Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County); Author: “The Executioner’s Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States;” Twitter: @MatthewTMangino Caryn L. Stark – Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych/FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Lisa M. Dadio – Former Police Lieutenant, New Haven Police Department; Senior Lecturer & Director of the Center for Advanced Policing University of New Haven’s Forensic Science Department Dr. Michelle DuPre – Forensic Pathologist and former Medical Examiner, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & “Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide”, Ret. Police Detective Lexington County Sheriff’s Department  Vanessa Murphy – Investigative Reporter, KLAS-TV; Instagram: @vanessareporting; X: @Vanessa_Murphy; Facebook: “VanessaMurphyInvestigates” r. Kristen Mittelman – Chief Development Officer, Othram Inc.; X: @OthramTech See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Finally, a verdict. And I've got to tell you, I was worried. The jury was out three full days. I'm talking about the Robert Tellis murder charge. A former Clark County, that's Las Vegas, public administrator who went on a rambling monologue in his own testimony. Why did this

man take the stand? Finally, the jury breaks their silence and comes up with a verdict. Tellis charged for the murder of an investigative reporter who had written a series of negative articles about him, specifically about a toxic workplace and for having sex, a torrent affair with an employee right there in the local government administration's office. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Journalist Jeff Gehrman walks straight into an ambush attack. He was stabbed four times in the neck and three in the torso. After three long days, a Nevada jury comes to their senses and finds a former county official guilty of murder and a gruesome stabbing of a journalist, Jeff German.

It was a case that shocked the media administrator, the subject of some of German's stories for the Las Vegas Review-Journal before his killing. This trial saw Telles take the stand against the advice of his lawyer and then submit in an excruciating monologue, the jury to a winding narrative delivered across two full days. First of all, and excuse me, I'm obviously a little nervous. It's a day I've been waiting for for nearly two years. This thing's been kind of a nightmare, frankly. Again, I want to thank you for being here. And right now, I want to say unequivocally, I'm innocent. I didn't kill Mr. Gurman. And I've got a lot to share with you all. I bet that defense attorney was cringing in his seat. Tell us in his testimony slash monologue accused those with whom he clashed of framing him. Okay,

what exactly happened? Jeff Gehrman was found stabbed to death outside his home in the Northwest Valley Saturday morning. Police say they believe a fight led to Gehrman's death. They say it appears the person seen in these photos was casing the area to commit other crimes before the stabbing happened. Police say the stabbing happened. Police say the stabbing happened near Vegas Drive in Rock Springs. Metro police are asking people in that area to review their cameras to see if they captured some more video of the suspect. They say that he never communicated any concerns about his personal safety. He was known for his stories about political scandals and coverage of the one October mass shooting. He was also

the author of a 2001 true crime book, Murder in Sin City, The Death of a Las Vegas Casino Boss. We're talking, of course, about a very well-respected journalist and reporter, Jeff Gehrman. Why was Jeff Gehrman stabbed dead outside? What happened? And what does the video reveal? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Joining me, an all-star panel of experts to make sense of what we know right now. But first, I'm going to go to Vanessa Murphy, high profile investigative reporter with KLAS-TV, 8newsnow.com. And you can find her on Facebook at Vanessa Murphy Investigates. Vanessa, thank you for being with us. Tell me about the area where Geerman was stabbed. The area where he was stabbed, this is the Northwest Valley in the Las Vegas area. Again,

this was outside his home, a quiet neighborhood. We do know there were burglaries in the area. But again, for the most part, a quiet neighborhood, the Northwest Valley. And it's just as quiet, beautiful neighborhoods where burglars think they're going to make a big heist. But this victim, Jeff Gehrman, he was basically scrubbed in sunshine. He had never done a wrong thing in his life and had dedicated his life to journalism. What do we know about him? Why him? Tell me about him.

So Jeff Gehrman, long time Las Vegas reporter, was originally at another newspaper here, then went to the Review Journal for at least the past decade. Well-respected. I know his colleagues. They had nothing bad to say about him. Just a tenacious reporter. And,

you know, as an investigative journalist, oftentimes we are uncovering truths that people do not want to be uncovered. And he was doing that on a regular basis. But that's part of the job. And I think it's interesting that his colleagues say that he never felt like he was in immediate danger at the time. Of course, motive. Why this journalist? Very well respected. Why him? Does the burglar care whether he's burgling a millionaire or a nun, a priest, a virgin, or a well-respected journalist. They don't care. The state doesn't have to prove a motive. But straight out to Lisa Daddio joining us, former police lieutenant with the New Haven PD and now the director of the Center for Advanced Policing at University New Haven. Lisa, thank you for being with us.

Okay, can we just talk about burglars for just one moment? You know, I believe, Lisa, that there are certain defendants, criminals that cannot be rehabilitated. Child molesters, sex offenders in general, peeping toms, believe it or not, and burglars. Burglars, because the way a rapist rapes, not for sex, it's for power and control, out of anger, hatred. A burglar very often likes the thrill of going in somebody else's home. It's not always to steal the TV or the electronics or the engagement ring.

It's being in somebody else's home and walking around, eating food out of their fridge, bouncing on the bed, looking at all their stuff. It's freaky. One thing about burglars, they usually, if they see somebody's home, will leave, much less continue the burglary with the person standing out in front of the yard, in the front yard. Absolutely, Nancy. And that's statistically, I'm going to say probably 90 plus percent accurate. Everything that you had stated. They don't want to be caught by the homeowner. You know, there are those few, they're called

cat burglars that get the thrill from breaking in at night when people are home. And that's a whole different psychological, but the majority of burglars don't want to confront anyone in the home. And they want to go in and get their thrill. And if they take things they do and if they don't, like you stated, they don't. Take a listen to our friend Sean Delancey, KTNV. Days after respected investigative reporter Jeff Gehrman was stabbed to death outside of his own home, police are still searching for the person responsible. Police say the suspect was likely casing the area to commit crimes before confronting Gehrman. Everyone in our unit's been working nonstop.

Captain Dory Corrin released this video asking people to pay close attention to the way the suspected killer walks and the clothing. In addition, police released this vehicle related to the crime, a maroon GMC Yukon Denali with chrome handles. Straight back out to investigative reporter joining us from Vegas, Vanessa Murphy. What was unusual, if anything, about the dress of the killer? So this individual was wearing a straw hat. He was also wearing bright orange. So typically we don't see burglars wear bright orange, right, and a big straw hat drawing attention to themselves. So those were two things that really stood out.

Vanessa, where did we get the video of this guy in a straw hat and an orange vest? Well, police went door to door right after they made this discovery of Mr. Gehrman's body. They went door to door and, you know, many people have ring doorbells. They have nest cameras with that surveillance video. So what they did was they pieced together any footage they had from that neighborhood. You know, another case where that happened, and I'm going to go to you again, Lisa Daddio, former police lieutenant,

is in the missing mother of five, Jennifer Dulos. And I am amazed at what the police did in that case regarding video. They got the husband, such as he is, Fotis Dulos, all that day. And they have pieced together video of him at red light cams, at cams of businesses, ring doorbell cams, neighborhood cams, surveillance video cams of businesses. They even have him going by in his car when a public bus opened its door and there's a cam in the bus. And it sees Fotis Dulos dashing by in his car, culminating in Fotis Dulos, the killer, at an auto detailing place, having the vehicle he used to transport her dead body detailed and cleaned. I mean, it goes from A to Z. It's incredible. And explain to me, Lisa Daddio,

I'm sure you've seen this photo. It's unlike anything I've ever seen and you know when you see for instance uh to catch a thief or you see some James Bond video James Bond movie the burglars always dressed in black and they've got their face darkened and they're wearing a black hat and you know like a skull cap it's not always like that but it sure ain't like this. I mean, this guy has got on a bright yellow shirt with reflectors on it, on the sleeves. He's got on a bright orange vest over that, like a person that would be conducting traffic out in the middle of the street when make sure you're seen with reflectors on it. He's wearing, I can only describe it as a beach hat, a straw beach hat that comes down like a top hat, a top hat, like the man of the Monopoly game that sticks way up and then fans down like a bowl wearing a black satchel and white running shoes.

I mean, it's quite the get up, Lisa Daddio. I mean, if I was going to burgle something, I put on my dark ninja clothes and completely cover my face and my head. What is this? You're trying to fit into the neighborhood, right? So that nobody who's out and about is going to even think anything twice. You think this fits in the neighborhood? Yeah. It's like, my God, it was bizarre. You think this outfit fits into the journalist upscale neighborhood? Like people are going to say him and go, oh, yeah, he lives around the corner.

Yeah, no. If anything, it's drawing attention to himself well nancy well let me guess you're going to say he's dressed up like a day laborer yeah we have a lot of construction going on and there was a series of uh we have a lot of construction going on and there was a burglar who actually was dressed uh similarly in a hat like that caught on video at a restaurant. So there's two possibilities. There you go. Okay. Okay, Vanessa.

Okay. But if I were sneaking around trying to burgle a home, it would not be wearing this getup. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Welcome back. This jury had me on pins and needles. How could they not find Robert Tellis guilty for Pete's sake? That's right. In the months prior to the investigative journalist German's death, he had written several articles about Tellis and his office,

and they told the story of an alleged affair between him, a low-level public administrator dealing with something like wills and estates documents, and a staffer and all the tension that ensued among employees basically stemming from the sex affair. The prosecution rested its case after four days of witnesses and presentations relying heavily on police evidence recovered from Tillis' home. What would that be? Well, they found bloody shoes, they found bloody articles of clothing, and there were photos and surveillance video from the day of the stabbing. And oh yes, deoxyribonucleic acid. Yes, a match of Robert Tellis' DNA and DNA recovered from underneath the victim's fingernails. Could somebody explain how that got there innocently?

Defense attorney Matthew Mangino joining me, former prosecutor in Lawrence County, former parole board member, author of The Executioner's Toll at MatthewMangino.com. It goes on and on. Mangino, I know you'll say, oh, this means nothing. Uh-uh. It means a lot to me, and I guarantee you it will mean a lot to a jury. Well, yes, Nancy, the thing that I would think is that prosecutors wouldn't want to put blinders on or investigators wouldn't want to put blinders on. I think they would want to keep an open mind about this investigation. Certainly, you know, the first idea is that is this a burglary that's gone awry and someone ends up dead. But when I look at that photograph,

I think of someone who wants to disguise themselves, someone who might be recognizable, who's trying to disguise themselves in that area. And so then as you keep an open mind as an investigator, I think you have to look at all different things. You have to look at your victim. You know, who would want to hurt this person? Is there someone out there who would want to harm them or maybe multiple people who want to harm them? Does he have enemies? Does he have people who don't like him? You know what, though, Matthew Mangino, that is, you know, kind of cliche. I mean, if you watch anything from, I guess, Special Victims Unit all the way back to Columbo,

they always say, who would want to kill your husband? And the wife always says, nobody. I mean, that's a little cliche, especially when police have announced they believe a burglary was going down. All I'm saying, Karen Stark, Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us out of Manhattan at KarenStark.com. Karen with a C. Karen, if I were going to burgle a place, it would not be wearing a giant straw hat and a day glow orange vest. Well, to me, it says quite clearly, Nancy, that this is somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, who is an amateur and hasn't really thought this out at all because it's apparent that everything that you're wearing is calling attention to yourself. And I'm trying to put my mind inside the mind of

this person and saying, what could he have been thinking? And maybe he thought that he had to be so outrageous that nobody would really. I know he might as well have worn a prom dress and a tiara. But back to you, Vanessa Murphy, joining us, KLAS-TV. We also know that police have been tracking a series of burglaries in the valley where the suspect did wear similar clothing as outlandish as I think it looks. Question to you, Vanessa, had that been broadcast on TV that the suspect in that series of burglaries had been dressed like this? There was video of a restaurant being burglarized and the suspect was wearing that straw hat. We did play that video on the news. So that was out there. And in fact,

you could see on the social media comments when the police released this image, you know, viewers were putting the two and two together. Hey, that looks like the guy who was burglarizing the restaurant. Let's take a listen again to Captain Dory Corrin. Corrin says that they are tracking a series of burglaries in the valley where a suspect wears similar clothing, and considering all possibilities for a link to Gehrman's killing, it's too early to form a definitive link. We're not at the point where we're going to connect it to anything else at this point,

but we are evaluating every avenue possible. So as Vanessa Murphy, KLAS, in the Residence in Vegas Mind, the murder of the investigative journalist Jeff Gehrman was clearly linked to the series of burglaries. While that connection is being made, an autopsy is being performed on Gehrman's body. Joining me right now, renowned pathologist, medical examiner, detective, and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Michelle Dupree. Dr. Dupree, thank you for being with us. Could you describe what happened to Gehrman? What death did he suffer?

Did he have time to see his killer? Nancy, he most likely did have time to see his killer. He was stabbed, as I understand it, seven different times. And stabbing is a very personal crime. You have to get hands on. It's not like standing across the room and shooting a gun. This is up close and very personal. So yes, I think he did see his stabber. And what would he have endured? Seven stab wounds, at least one of them deadly. He obviously would have been fighting for his life. He would have been probably fighting back some way,

perhaps hitting that person, scratching that person, just fighting for his life. Imagine dying out in front of your house on what seemed to be an ordinary day for you that suddenly turned anything but. Well, no connections are being made to a string of burglaries. Take a listen to our friends at Fox 5.

It is troublesome because it is a journalist and we expect journalism to be open and transparent and a watchdog for government. And when people take it upon themselves to create harm associated with that profession, I think it's very important that we put all eyes on and address the case appropriately. Gehrman has published several investigative reports, allegations of bullying and favoritism. You know, I'm curious, Karen Stark, it's hard to imagine someone willing to commit a murder over a bad newspaper article. Well, when you think about somebody who's capable of murder, Nancy, they're not illogical.

They are very, they're hypersensitive. Their ego, they're all about their ego. And here's somebody who's not, it's not just a newspaper article. It has to do with their reputation and how the public perceives them. And that kind of a person, they're not going to hesitate to think about the worst thing they could possibly do to get revenge because they're all about revenge you know matthew mangino joining me high profile lawyer and author matthew very often i've heard defense attorneys argue what he's going to kill his wife he could have just gotten a divorce killers don't think that way. They don't think rationally. So while we're digging around

for a motive in Gehrman's murder, a very brutal murder, the state doesn't have to prove motive. I've seen murders over a $5 debt before. So that doesn't make sense to anybody else, but it made sense to the killer, right? Yeah, there is no obligation on the state's part to prove a motive in a murder. Although jurors like to hear that there is a motive, they feel more comfortable making a decision when they know that there was some motive. There was some reason for this person to act the way that they did. But, you know, here, you know, all options have to be open in terms of, you know, how Gehrman died and why Gehrman died. You're right. And you're also right about juries. Matthew Mangino, Matthew Mangino, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, author, former parole board member.

The state doesn't have to prove a motive legally. But when you say a jury wants to hear a motive, they do. They want a neat explanation or else they will go back in the jury room and argue till they're blue in the face about why would he have committed this murder? Because they, the jurors, wouldn't do it because they're reasonable thinking people, unlike a killer. And it's hard to apply logic to an illogical situation like a murder. So you better give them a motive, Matthew Mangino. You're right. So now the police are departing from their initial belief that this was a part of a series of burglaries. As Vanessa pointed out, there was a restaurant burglary. And according to the police chief, there was a series of burglaries where the burglar wore much of the same get up, this outlandish outfit. And it was put online and on TV. Hence, this killer dresses the same way.

The investigation knuckles down as the mystery intensifies. Take a listen to our friend, Mark Strassman. Tell us about the subject of a newspaper investigation spearheaded by German in May, describing allegations of emotional stress, bullying and favoritism in the public administrator's office. That story included further allegations that tell us had an inappropriate relationship with one of his staffers. He disputed the claims in an interview with German, accusing others of trying to sabotage his office.

I am about nothing but justice, fairness and just being a good person. OK, well, wait, wait a minute. You're hearing this guy who's under journalistic investigation for bullying. Let's see what else. Favoritism, emotional stress. you can't have favoritism in a public office this is the public administrator's office and then the investigator who is now dead pulls up a video of what looks to be a sex affair okay what about it vanessa Murphy? What is the video that Gehrman pulled up? in the back seat with one of his employees. They are back there. We see some movement. He gets out of the right side.

She gets out of the left, sort of pulls her skirt down a little bit. I'm looking at it right now. Wait a minute. Yeah, I see them moving around. It's almost like there's a wrestling match going on in the car between two people. Oh, wow. And it's a mar there's a wrestling match going on in the car between two people. Oh, wow. And it's a maroon SUV. Ouch. Oh, and I can see the license tag, too.

I'm still looking. I'm still looking. I'm waiting for something to happen. Tell us. And this says Lee Connett have denied allegations they had an inappropriate relationship. This video was shot recently and was obtained by the Review Journal. Isn't that where Gehrman works, the Review Journal? Yes, that is where Gehrman works. I know that the vehicle looks similar, but I don't think it was that maroon SUV. I'm glad you

told me that. Okay, I'm waiting. I'm seeing more movement. i can't tell front seat or back seat did you say back seat i believe they're in the back seat oh the back seat and you're right oh there comes tell us you can't mistake that no that is tell us i would recognize that head anywhere oh oh okay yeah you're right it's the back seat because she's coming out of the back seat there. Oh, there she is. Oh, yep. She hitched her dress down and now she's getting into the front seat. And what's going to happen now? I'm waiting, waiting, waiting. She's in the front seat. He's out of view. Who took this video, Vanessa Murphy? I believe it was employees of Clark County. Uh-oh. Well, good on them. Now the lights are on. She slammed the door shut, and she's leaving. Well, they're denying an inappropriate relationship. I'd like to know

what they were doing, wrestling in the backseat of this SUV in a parking garage. That said, I'm a little more concerned about the murder. What can you tell me about claims of bullying now that we've got off the sort of not having sex in the backseat incident? What can you tell me about claims of bullying and favoritism in the public administrator's office. Well, Robert Tellis sort of started on this is an office with a history of problems and he would come in and help clean it up. And what employees told the Review Journal is that did not happen. And it seems that issues continued. And he was he's their boss and sort of bullied employees and made things even worse. You know, anybody jump in as I've already admonished you were not having high tea at High

Grove with King Charles. Those words are hard for me to say, not the queen, but Nancy, let me, is that Karen Stark? Jump in Karen, because you know, bullying in a public office, not having sex in the backseat of the SUV. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask you. Have you ever heard people go? I'm not stupid? Translation, I'm really stupid. Did you hear him earlier saying, I'm all about justice and fairness? Translation, you got me. I did it. Yeah, that's that.

That he's overreacting. And I can't tell you the kind of response somebody who has his personality, who's capable of murder, how he would respond to being publicly humiliated and shamed like that. It's unacceptable. Here's another thing. What is he married, Vanessa Murphy? He is married with three children. You know, I'd like to say I'm surprised, but... Guys, take a listen to Mark Strassman, CBS News.

Back in June, as Tellis appeared poised to lose his re-election bid, he appeared to go after Gehrman on social media, preemptively calling a potential follow-up story a lying smear piece and joking that Gehrman was going through our trash to report it. Police interviewed him Wednesday afternoon. And he did not respond to reporters' questions. Now, you were hearing that report when TELUS was on the verge of losing the election. Now, take a listen to our friends at CBS.

One of Gehrman's most recent investigative stories in the Las Vegas Review-Journal was about an alleged toxic work environment in Tellis' public administrator's office and an alleged inappropriate relationship he was having with a co-worker, where the paper obtained video of Tellis in the back of a car with a woman. In the midst of the series, Tellis, a Democrat, lost his bid for re-election. Just after Gehrman's death, police released pictures of a possible suspect, dressed in an orange vest, straw hat, and gloves. Investigators later asked the public to help find this red Yukon Denali, possibly tied to the killing. But what about evidence? They could have a huge grudge fest on TV and social media.

He may have lost the election, but that is not enough to prove a murder. That does not a murder make. But wait a minute. Take a listen to our friends in our cut 15. This is Chip Yost at KTLA. The evidence that Clark County's elected public administrator Robert Tellis is the person who dressed up in this disguise to murder investigative reporter Jeff Gehrman of the Las Vegas Review-Journal is growing. Gehrman was found stabbed to death

outside his home last week, but in court the prosecutor suggested Gehrman didn't go down without a fight as DNA was found under the dead man's fingernails. The DNA recovered from the victim's hands under his fingernails. They do identify the DNA of the defendants. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Thank goodness a 12-member jury found Robert Tellis guilty of murder one after three excruciating days of deliberation. Tellis stood in the courtroom with his head down, shaking it no, no, no, as the guilty verdict was read. Okay, you know what? Save it for the appeals court. Following after the verdict, the Vegas Review-Journal editor, Glenn Cook, said there had now been a, quote, measure of justice for German. I kind of disagree with that because how can you

ever make up for losing your life? German was known for his incredible investigative work. He covered the courts. He covered politics, organized crime over 30 years. He worked at the Vegas Sun and then the Vegas Review Journal. That was where he was working at the time of his death. By all accounts, the big question was, why would anybody kill Jeff? Well, I think I know why. And as you know, the state never has to prove motive. Why does the state have to go lurking around in some killer's mind and figure out, wow, what was he thinking? They don't. But here we've got a very clear motive. He had a wife and children on the line plus his job. Well, that's all down the tubes now. Also, interesting to point out, during an interview Tellis did with German before he murdered him, he denied having an affair with the staffer.

But on this past Thursday during cross-exam, Tellus reversed course, saying, yes, he did have the affair and that he had lied. He admitted he and the staffer were romantically involved. I guess that's one way of putting it. They were basically having sex in the backseat of a car. Now, if that's romantic, maybe for some people it is. That said, I guess that's something the jury would have to consider. What more do we know? Dr. Kristen Middleman, the Chief Development Officer of Authram, Inc. And you can find her at DNAsolves.com. Dr. Middleman, thank you for being with us all the rest while it is circumstantial evidence which is

equally as probative or proving its probative means as direct evidence i would not kick a little direct evidence in the teeth i'm talking about dna dna under the dead victim's fingernails. Explain. Absolutely. So the DNA was found underneath the victim's fingernails, and the DNA was a match to the perpetrator. And so at that point, you can see very clearly that beyond any reasonable doubt, the person was there, and somehow his DNA was under the fingernails. There was also DNA found, victim's DNA found, on the shoes of the perpetrator.

And so you can see that there was exchange of DNA in both directions from that crime scene, and I think that without a shadow of a doubt, that shows that it confirms all of the other evidence that may or may not be probative and may be circumstantial, as you said. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Have you ever heard the phrase training on the job? Absolutely, Nancy. And we see it and we do it all the time. You know, Dr. Dupree, I wanted to ask you this specific thing. I just immediately flashback to my very first murder case. And before I went to the morgue to cross-examine the medical examiner to get myself, I thought I was preparing him. I was really preparing myself to put him on the stand. I was looking at crime scene

photos and I saw paper bags over the victim's hands with a rubber band at the wrist. I thought, why are there paper bags on the victim's hands? Then I found out. Explain. Absolutely, Nancy. In any type of a personal crime like this, we always try to bag the victim's hands with paper bags, not plastic, but paper bags so that we can catch any evidence that might fall off, any trace evidence, hairs, fibers, anything like that, that might fall off during transport of that patient. And one of the things that we do in cases like this is we always scrape the fingernails. You'd be surprised how many times we do find those epithelial cells or those skin cells under the fingernails, which point to the suspect.

And then, of course, you want to get a shot if the arrest is in time of the defendant's body to see if there are scratches about the neck or face or arms or really anywhere that would match up to fingernails. They look like a furrow or where you're planting something out in a field. Lines, you can tell they're fingernail scratches. Another thing about this, Dr. Kristen Middleman joining us, Chief Development Officer at Authram Inc. When you say there's a match, you make it sound so simple, but could you talk about the statistical likelihoods that you have seen in other cases that the killer is anyone other than the defendant? So usually with SDR testing, there's not enough people on Earth for it to be anyone else. So it would be one in some sort of quintillion or something that some number that is so high that there's not enough people on earth or if the SDRs match, which is a testing that was done here using DNA analysis, then there would not be enough people

on earth for it to be someone else. So on many DNA deoxyribonucleic acid reports I've seen, the match as you so simply refer to it as is something like statistically, statistically, scientifically, there is a one in five trillion chance it's not this guy. One in five trillion. In other words, it's him. That DNA under his fingernails, under the victim's fingernails, and the DNA on the defendant's shoes. Lisa Daddio joining us. Lisa, why is it the defendants always forget about their shoes?

Although this guy didn't forget. He tried to destroy them, I believe. Didn't he, Vanessa? It appears that way that, yeah, he tried to destroy a couple of things. What did he try to destroy? I believe they found a hat in pieces, that hat from that video. And the shoes? Yeah. I mean, I mean, right there, Lisa Daddio, who goes home and tears up their straw hat and their tennis shoes? And then you just happen to find the victim's DNA.

Why do people, why do killers forget about their their shoes i mean i would like to think a lot of times it's because they they like the shoes they spent a lot more money on the shoes and they're just not thinking that there's any evidence on the shoes where there would be more evidence on a shirt or on a pair of pants they're not thinking how small um in this case blood blood, you know, a droplet could be on the shoes because they don't see it. I mean, that's one of the first things I do, Lisa, is go to the defendant's closet. Yeah, get all those shoes. Take a listen now to our friend John Huck at Fox 5. Rob Tellis faces open murder charges in the killing of Review Journal reporter Jeff

Gehrman. Investigators say Tellis held a grudge over articles Gehrman wrote about him. They say that brought him to Gehrman's Summerlin home on Friday, where he's accused of stabbing the journalist to death. The nature of this case and the nature of Mr. Gehrman's assignments required a good investigator to make inquiry. What was Mr. Gehrman's assignments required a good investigator to make inquiry. You know, what was Mr. Gehrman working on? Was he investigating certain persons?

Could those persons be the perpetrator? It did not help tell us at all that at trial, police could link TELUS to a maroon GMC Yukon Denali and a vehicle of the very same type registered to TELUS' wife. When asked on cross-exam, another thing that didn't help TELUS, why he should never have taken the stand, that once he was on cross-exam, the prosecutor asked if he, TELUS, believed he, TELUS, would win the primary if German had not written the articles. Tellus responded, probably yes. I think the defense that everyone was out to get him didn't help with the jury. So who should they believe? Who's lying?

Everybody else or tell us? Note to suspects, taking the stand usually is not a good idea. Justice has unfolded. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.