Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - VERDICT WATCH in the Dereck Chauvin/George Floyd murder trial!

Episode Date: April 20, 2021

Juror deliberations continue for a second day in the Derek Chauvin murder. Chauvin has pleaded not guilty to third-degree murder, second-degree murder, and second-degree manslaughter in the death of George Floyd. Floyd, who was unarmed, died after the former Minneapolis police officer knelt on his neck for over nine minutes during an arrest in May 2020.Joining Nancy Grace today: Jim Elliott - Of Counsel, Butler Snow LLP, www.butlersnow.com, Instagram: JimElliott1957 Dr. Jorey Krawczyn [KRAW-ZIN] - Police Psychologist, Adjunct Faculty with Saint Leo University; Research Consultant with Blue Wall Institute, Author: Operation S.O.S. - Practical Recommendations to Help “Stop Officer Suicide” (July 2021) bw-institute.com Dr. William Morrone - Chief Medical Examiner, Bay County Michigan, Author: "American Narcan: Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl Associated Mortality", RecoveryPathwaysLLC.com Karen L. Smith - Forensic Expert, Lecturer at the University of Florida, Host of Shattered Souls Podcast, @KarensForensic, barebonesforensic.com Kristy Mazurek - Emmy Award-winning Investigative Reporter, President of Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications Firm Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. We are in a verdict watch here at Crime Stories as a jury deliberates the case of Derek Chauvin, former cop now on trial for the murder of Mr. George Floyd. You will learn that on May 25th of 2020, Mr. Derek Chauvin betrayed this badge. In opening statements, prosecutor Jerry Blackwell making the case that Chauvin's use of excessive and unreasonable force caused Floyd's death.

He put his knees upon his neck and his back, grinding and crushing him. The prosecution then showed the jury nine minutes and 29 seconds of cell phone video that shocked the world. Floyd insisting he can't breathe more than 20 times. Bystanders pleading with officers to do something. Bro, but you can get him off the ground. You've been a bum right now. Six minutes, seven minutes, eight minutes in. The man ain't moved yet, bro. Jurors watch Floyd lose consciousness.

Chauvin took notes as the video played. Of course, as trial lawyers, we all know that defendants are told when you don't know what else to do, look down and take a note or at least pretend like you are. Even O.J. Simpson pretended to take notes. It only turned out later they were just a bunch of doodles. Again, thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Let me introduce to you an all-star panel to make sense of what's happening in court. First of all, renowned lawyer Jim Elliott, a Butler Snow LLP. Instagram,

Jim Elliott, 1957. Dr. Jory Croson, police psychologist, faculty, St. Leo University, research consultant with the Blue Wall Institute, author of Operation SOS, Practical Recommendations to Stop Officer Suicide, Dr. William Maroney, a name you know well, chief medical examiner, Bay County, Michigan, author of American Narcan. He actually created a mobile opioid treatment center to basically fight the opioid epidemic one-handed. Karen L. Smith joining me, forensic host and expert of Shattered Souls podcast at karensforensicsandbarebonesforensics.com. But first to Chrissy Misurik joining me, Emmy award- winning investigative reporter. And you can find her at Successful Strategies PR and Crisis Communications.

Christy, the jury is in deliberations. How long have they been out, including yesterday? So they deliberated until nine o'clock Eastern time. Then they were sequestered. They're slated to be back in, but you can feel the angst in the city right now. It's the same tension that gripped Los Angeles in the Rodney King case, in the OJ Simpson case. 3,000 members of the National Guard are out patrolling the streets. As our protesters, it is a city on edge. This jury is debating 13 days plus of testimony. And of course, right in the middle of this,

Congressperson Maxine Waters drops a bomb, basically insisting for a guilty verdict. The jury may very well hand down a guilty verdict, but to have a congressperson comment on the case, very, very unusual and potentially grounds for a mistrial. Guys, you heard a little bit of what the prosecution had to say in opening statements, but listen to this. Defense attorney Eric Nelson argued Floyd's death was caused by underlying heart disease and drug use.

And you will learn that Derek Chauvin did exactly what he had been trained to do over the course of his 19-year career. Officers initially responded to a call about a counterfeit $20 bill. The evidence will show that when confronted by police, Mr. Floyd put drugs in his mouth in an effort to conceal them from the police. The defense says officers struggled to get Floyd to comply. This was not an easy struggle. Straight out to Dr. William Maroney, chief medical examiner of Bay County, Michigan. Dr. Maroney, thank you Examiner of Bay County, Michigan. Dr. Maroney, thank you so much for being with us. We need your insight because I know that George Floyd may have had, well, did have drugs in his system. There's no may to it. But in my mind, that's like saying my producer Jackie set my house on fire, but I died of asthma, not the house fire.

How does it compute in your mind as a renowned medical examiner? Well, I go to the Department of Justice assessment of the autopsy, which was done by the Armed Forces Medical Examiner Office, which has no dog in the hunt they're absolutely down the middle impartial you have to look at what they said they uh approved the dr baker autopsy 100 it was a cardiopulmonary arrest during restraint and subdual in the presence of fentanyl intoxication. Okay, you know what, Dr. Maroney, I would have to school you on the stand. Of course, you're much more brilliant than any of us put together on these matters. But actually, nobody knows what you just said.

So try to dumb me down for all us lawyers and forensics experts and psychologists on the panel today. First of all, what were you saying about who conducted the autopsy? And remember, in regular people talk. The Hennepin County medical examiner, Dr. Baker, produced an autopsy report that made the decision. And remember, this is a guy who works for government. He doesn't work for the defense that there was a cardiopulmonary arrest. Now, the prosecution didn't like that because they want that word asphyxiation. And there was no signs of lack of oxygen with muscle damage with petechiae in the autopsy. But it was because George Floyd could not tolerate the subdual.

He could not tolerate the restraint. And if the question is about the drugs, Dr. Baker answered the question, if he didn't have subdual and he didn't have restraint and you found him in an empty room in a house what would the cause of death been and he said fentanyl intoxication and then dr. Baker's teacher who was offered the same question and she made it clear but he was in subdual and restraint by the police and they said but if he wasn't and you had this level of fentanyl,

and she had to agree. Okay, you know what? The Armed Forces Medical Examiner System said the same thing. Because to say if he wasn't restrained, I would say the COD, cause of death, was fentanyl. But he was restrained. So, I mean, you might as well write on that report that you're talking about

if little green men from Mars came in and sliced his throat, but that didn't happen. And your pretend world that he wasn't subdued didn't happen. He was subdued. So I'm not quite sure, Dr. Maroney, what that

has to do with anything, because those are not the facts. Physiologically, his restraint was not tolerated. He could not tolerate the subdual by the police. The autopsy was very clear and the toxicology was very clear. And I don't, I'm, you know, I'm a libertarian. I'm not a Republican or a Democrat. I'm down the middle. I'm a little, you know, on the off the table, maybe. So I don't have a vote either way. But if you look at the data and you look at the report in the autopsy, the causation is not in the autopsy. That was what the criminal trial was to develop. But the autopsy was very clear. It said fentanyl intoxication.

It didn't say just fentanyl. So are you today trying to tell me that was the COD, the fentanyl? The cause is cardiopulmonary arrest. And a contributing factor was the fentanyl in the presence of fentanyl intoxication. You can't separate it. What we were arguing is, was this manslaughter? And fentanyl would not be manslaughter. Fentanyl would be an accident.

Okay. So how does being forced down on his stomach with a knee in his neck and him saying, I can't breathe fit into this scenario? It doesn't. That's why it's multivariable. That down on the ground and the knee is not being tolerated by Mr. Floyd's body. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about the trial of former officer Derek Chauvin and the death of George Floyd. Dr. Maroney is with me, the chief

medical examiner, Bay County, Michigan, author of American Narcan. Isn't it true, Dr. Maroney, that the prosecution had a private autopsy from not one but two other medical examiners, and they both concluded that the cause of George Floyd's death was asphyxiation caused by neck compression. Well, that was the Baden autopsy that was the dominant news force. And Dr. Baden has never prescribed fentanyl. He's never treated. OK, I'm asking you a direct question about two other autopsy reports by two medical examiners that both said the cause of death was... I'm not asking you if they have experience in fentanyl.

I'm asking you about their determination in cause of death. And I guarantee you, Dr. Maroney, that many medical examiners across the country don't have the experience that you have in fentanyl. Are you suggesting that they're all wrong too? Because they don't know as much about fentanyl as you do. I'm suggesting Dr. Bodden doesn't know as much about fentanyl. Well, do you think he knows anything about asphyxiation? I think, yeah, but that wasn't in the autopsy report.

But it's in his autopsy report and not just Bodden's, but another medical examiner's as well. The most objective autopsy report is the Armed Forces Medical Examiner's system from the Department of Justice. Are you suggesting the two medical examiners that said asphyxiation didn't know what they were talking about? They're not as objective as the Armed Forces Military System medical examiner autopsy. Yeah. Yeah. Guys, we were talking. I don't go either way. Right.

Okay. So you choose to ignore those two medical examiners and stick with the one that fits in with your expertise, which is fentanyl. Take a listen to this. The trial's first witness, 911 dispatcher Jenna Scurry. She testified that she called the police on the police after seeing what was happening to Floyd while watching from a surveillance camera. And my instincts were telling me that something's wrong. Something has not right. I don't know what, but something wasn't raped. You're hearing actually the dispatcher, the first witness, Jenna Scurry. You heard a little bit of her voice who testified

that she called police on the police. And let's take a listen to that 911 call. You were also hearing the voice of our friends at CBS News. But take a listen to the 911 call. Hey, this is Jenna with Channel One. Hey, so just wanted to let you know about the person with a knife at 2602 Bloomington. And then, I don't know, you can call me a snitch if you want to, but we have the cameras up for 320's call. Oh, did they already put him in the, they must have already started moving him. And 320 over at Cup Foods. Okay.

I don't know if they had used force or not. They got something out of the back of the squad, and all of them sat on this man. So I don't know if they needed to do or not, but they haven't said anything to me yet. They haven't said anything. This is just a take-down, which doesn't count, but... Okay. I'll find out. No problem. We don't get to ever see it, so when we see it, we're just like, well, it looks a little different. Alright, thank you. Bye. Also, take a listen to another witness, Donald Williams, who also calls 911. 911, what's the address of the emergency?

The office is 97 in front of a Chicago store. He just pretty much killed this guy that wasn't resisting arrest. He had his knee on the dude's neck the whole time, Officer 987. The man went top breathing. He wasn't resisting arrest or nothing. He was already in handcuffs. He was pretty much just took it. I don't even know if he did, for sure,

but he was not responsible when the ambulance came and got him. And the officer that was just out here left, the one that actually did murder, just in front of everybody on 36th, 38th and Chicago. Okay. Would you like to speak with the sergeant? Yeah, it was bogus what they just did to this man.

He was unresponsive. He wasn't presenting arrest for any of it. Joining me right now, Jim Elliott, a veteran trial lawyer at Butler Snow LLP. Jim, what do you make of the closing arguments? And I

was interested that when the testimony or the arguments got very uncomfortable for Chauvin, he immediately started doodling. I don't know about you, but when I would prep witnesses for trial, they typically were not sitting out in the courtroom like a defendant would be. But I definitely instructed them on how to behave when up on the stand. One, don't wear flip-flops.

Don't chew gum. Don't show up drunk. Don't wave your hands around. I'd often give them a notebook to hold in their hands when they would go sit down so they wouldn't gesticulate wildly in front of the jury. To look at the jurors, to think before they answer, to go slowly. That is textbook instruction to a defendant. When you're in a tight spot, don't look over at the jury, don't look alarmed, look down and start taking notes. Sure, because you can bet that Heisman

focused on him the entire time. I mean, whether he was conscious of it or not, I mean, they're looking at him and body language speaks volumes to a lot of people. It really does. Dr. Jory Crawson, psychologist, adjunct professor at St. Leo University. Dr. Jory, explain to me the nonverbal communication going on in this courtroom with the defendant, Derek Chauvin, sitting there in front of the jury. Well, nonverbal is the body language, and it originates psychologically out of the subconscious, so you don't have conscious control of it. It's well-researched that, you know, we see that in confessions, people that are making gestures that show or denote guilt. That's also associated with stress. The body language that he had

definitely showed a lot of pressure and a lot of stress, even to the point where he was possibly questioning his own reactions to the testimony as I watched it in the courtroom. And when you were watching the testimony, what exactly did you observe? Just nervous reaction. And he wasn't aware of it, what exactly did you observe? Just nervous reaction. And he wasn't aware of it, like the fidgeting with his hands and looking around at times. Looked at the jury, but his look on his face was more of just a straight, pale look. There was no gesture of like a smile or a smirk or anything like that. The three times that I saw, according to my notes.

To Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, host of Shattered Soul podcast. Karen, when he was on the ground, when he was ultimately put into the ambulance, of course, it was too late then because he had already flatlined. What forensic evidence stands out as significant to you? Well, we heard from the forensic analyst who went to the scene. Unfortunately, it was at nighttime. Rain had washed over the pavement and there really wasn't a whole lot left. One thing that did stick out to me, Nancy, is the defense argued this delay in resuscitation. Didn't blame EMS or paramedics, but says there was a delay in resuscitation.

Well, guess what? That's part of a police officer's job. That person is in your care and control. You're responsible for their well-being. And if their argument is that the resuscitation efforts were delayed, well, that goes right back to the responsibility of the officers on the scene and their failure to act. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Circling back to Dr. William Maroney, the chief medical examiner of Bay County, Michigan, joining us, the author of American Narcan, Dr. Maroney weighing in on the true cause of death of George Floyd. Again, Dr. Maroney, thank you for being with us. You went through the original Hennepin County Medical Examiner's Autopsy Report, and you highlighted voluntary use of fentanyl and other factors playing into death.

But is it true, Dr. Maroney, that not two but three medical examiners state that this is a homicide? They did. And we agree with the cause of death or the manner of death homicide is also supported by the Department of Justice and Armed Forces. We agree to that. It's what other contributing factors were there. But I also want to impart this is that the medical examiner definition of homicide by the National Association of Medical Examiners is not the same as the legal felonious law dictionary homicide definition. But we do agree it is probably related back to the cardiopulmonary arrest and subdual. And I'm going to admit there's excessive use of force that Mr.

Floyd could not tolerate. Why do you say you're going to admit it? That sounds like some type of nefarious comment. Why are you admitting it?'s clear it's on video that the excessive use of force is not part of the charges oh i'm sorry dr moroney did you think we're in a courtroom right now because we're not no i'm at i i'm completely ignorant to those uh definitions it is manslaughter by the medical examiner definition, and it's cardiopulmonary arrest in the presence of subdual and restraint.

Are you saying subdual? You're talking about Derek Chauvin's knee on top of George Floyd's neck. I mean, what idiot over the age of eight doesn't know if you put your knee on somebody's windpipe, they can't breathe. That is the excessive use of force. I mean, I'm having a hard time with you, Maroney, and I'll tell you why. Because it's so obvious. And you're talking about fentanyl and you're talking about a heart problem. The man had

a knee on his windpipe. I don't even know what you're talking about. And why do you keep talking about the DOJ and the armed forces? It's the Hennepin County Medical Examiner. Hello? Because those are objective sources that agree with manslaughter.

That's why. Well, what does that have to do with this? What does the DOJ and the armed forces have to do with this case? Because you need an objective source. You can't look at contractual medical examiners, reviews and separate autopsies because they're being paid. The Department of Justice has no dog in this hunt. They're just trying to be objective to represent. Are you referring to the Hennepin County medical examiner? You know, he was called as a witness by the prosecution. Who is he?

He didn't help them. Who is he? Dr. Baker't help them. Who is he? Dr. Baker. Okay. Yes. Excuse me. Are you referring to the Hennepin County Medical Examiner when you keep talking about the DOJ and the armed forces?

No. The armed forces and the DOJ made an assessment of Dr. Baker's autopsy from Hennepin County, and they agreed with it. Okay, and my question is to you, did the DOJ or the armed forces perform their own autopsy? They reviewed reports, videos, the autopsy. So no. No, they didn't. No. Okay, so you're trying to cram down my throat something the federal government reviewed, notes, and looked at a video.

O-H-E-L-L-N-O. You know, round and round and round. You're like, I'm trying to like wrestle with a trash bag full of jello here. Everybody. I mean, they didn't even look at the body. A dog in the hunt. I don't have a dog in it. I don't have a dog in the fight. I want the truth. But I know what I saw on that video. You know what? Let's take a listen to more. You cannot compare the video to the autopsy. That's what's really important. I know what I saw. The man was talking and breathing

until Chauvin shoved his knee on Floyd's windpipe and then he died. That's what I know. Now, you're throwing a lot of medical terms and you're throwing out DOJ and armed forces. I bet you didn't think I was going to ask you, did the DOJ and the armed forces actually do an autopsy? Because they didn't. Did they, Maroney? Did they? No.

They didn't. No, they didn't. I don't even know why you're saying that to me. You think they're watching a video? You just told me, I can't believe the video. You just said that. And now you're expecting me to go along with a DOJ.

I told you there was an objective source. And everybody, everybody, the defense and the prosecution, they all got fentanyl wrong. Nobody understood anything. Nobody knew anything. Right? Other than what they saw.

It's the excessive use of force that was really well focused and debated that that was the highlight. Everybody got the fentanyl wrong. Everybody. Defense prosecution. Everybody. You know what, Nancy? I'm going to jump in. I'm going to jump in. Let me let me jump in on the use of force. I'm a retired cop, so I'm going to speak on this for a second. The use of force continuum was presented by the defense. They actually put a photograph of it up there. And it also said that you must de-escalate when you can clearly defend or control with less force. When a person is handcuffed in a prone position, that's the time to de-escalate.

Any threat has been contained, and that's the point when you reassess the situation, make sure that person is not in medical or physical distress. And these points are driven home from day one of the police academy. This is nothing new to any police officer. We know the use of force continuum like the back of our hand, and we use it every single call, every single day. And guess what? Our best defense is communication which is something that was clearly lacking from the outset of this entire use of force karen the fact that

chauvin had everybody wondered why does he have his hands in his pockets that's to increase the downward velocity on floyd's neck it adds yeah the force. Yeah, it seems like he had his thumb resting in his pocket. And it was just this posture of not even caring what was going on beneath him on the ground. And that is going to speak volumes. That video, you know, they said there's bias in the video. I disagree. There were multiple angles. When I photograph a crime scene, I do it from multiple angles to eliminate bias. You had body cam footage. You had surveillance footage. You had cell phone footage. There's multiple angles. So the whole thing start take a listen our friends at cbs earlier the prosecution showed newly released security video of floyd inside the cup foods convenience store less than two hours before his death 19 19-year-old Christopher Martin worked at the store

and had a brief conversation with Floyd. But it kind of took him a little long to get to what he was trying to say, so it would appear that he was high. Martin says Floyd bought a pack of cigarettes with what appeared to be a counterfeit $20 bill. I noticed that it had a blue pigment to it, kind of how a $100 bill will have, and I found that odd, so I assumed that it was fake. Martin and his co-workers tried twice to get Floyd to speak with their manager.

The significance of that testimony in the video was to suggest to the jury, and maybe it was true, that George Floyd was acting as if he was high on something. The question for the jury is the cause of death, whether he was or was not high, whether he had or had not ingested drugs. Take a listen to this. Again, CBS. The jury got to see the shocking police body cam video of officers putting George Floyd into a squad car. I am a doctor. I'm a claustrophobic. The intense struggle continued on the other side of the vehicle.

Floyd eventually forced to the ground. Charles McMillan witnessed it all. The 61-year-old broke down as he relived the moment in court. McMillan had confronted Chauvin about his actions. And for the first time, we're hearing Chauvin's initial reaction to what had just happened. I'm going to control this guy because he's a sizable guy. Yeah, and I thought he didn't get in the car. It looks like he's probably on something.

You're hearing what was shown in the courtroom. And you're hearing about the struggle officers had trying to get Floyd into the back of the car. But this is what a paramedic, Seth Bravendere, says in court. Listen. Dramatic, never-before-seen video of the ambulance team arriving to save George Floyd's life. Paramedic Seth Bravendere says the first thing he saw was multiple officers still on top of Floyd. From when I could see where I was at, I didn't see any breathing or movement or anything like that. Bravendare makes a hand gesture at Officer Derek Chauvin, telling him to move as his partner, Paramedic Derek Smith, checked Floyd's pulse.

Straight out to Jim Elliott, a veteran trial lawyer, joining us from butlersnow.com. When you hear the paramedics say that George Floyd was already not moving and that there were, quote, multiple officers on top of him and the paramedic had to tell Chauvin to get off of Floyd, what does that say to you? It says to me a level of indifference that I don't really understand. I mean, how are you there on top of everything and had that result? And just astounding, really. And from a legal standpoint, Jim Elliott,

as Karen Smith was just telling us, a former police officer, yes, cops have to subdue and stop perps all the time because they're bad guys. But once they're subdued, that's supposed to stop. Even the paramedic says Floyd was not moving and there were multiple guys on top of him. Obviously, that goes beyond typical police force. Yes, certainly. I mean, that place, again, there was no charge of excessive force, but that's certainly the mindset everybody has. And that's exactly what I think everyone will assume. Take a listen to our friends at CBS. The prosecution played police body cam video. Floyd said, I can't breathe, 27 times.

They were his final words. George Floyd begged until he could speak no more, and the defendant continued this assault beyond the point that he had a pulse. Slisher pointed to seven expert witnesses, most of them fellow officers, all testifying that Chauvin used unreasonable force. Back to Dr. William Maroney, the chief medical examiner of Bay County, Michigan, author of American Narcan on Amazon, created Mobile Opioid Treatment Center. He's done thousands of autopsies. Dr. Maroney, the man says, I can't breathe 27 times. But you don't see that there was asphyxiation. The man is saying, I can't breathe. There's an excessive use of force.

And asphyxiation had to be defined medically in the autopsy. I agree that is heart stopped. I agree. And I agree that that excessive use of force was abusive and outside of political and police training and education. But we ask people like me what the contribution is of drugs and substance use disorder. And it is part of a contributing factor. Excessive use is the focus of Mr. Floyd not tolerating his restraint well wait when you say restraint you mean a knee on his windpipe for almost 10 minutes three men restraining him and and a knee on his windpipe because when i see the video i see chauvin on his windpipe i I know Floyd is saying I can't breathe, but you still want me to believe it's about fentanyl. There is no damage in the neck. And I'm here just to reflect the autopsy. I'm here just to reflect the medical science. There's no broken hyoid bones. There's

no bruised muscles. We can say that the video shows excessive force and the autopsy doesn't. And that's not that we disagree. I'm just reflecting what's in the autopsy. Well, then why is it three other medical examiners say contrary to what you're saying? You know what? Take a listen to what the defense claims are at trial. Listen to this. Defense attorney Eric Nelson argued that jurors need to examine what happened before the nine minutes and 29 seconds. He said Chauvin did what any reasonable officer would after seeing Floyd struggle with other officers. The amount of force that was being used by officers King and Lane was insufficient to overpower Mr. Floyd's resistance to getting into the car. He played

video showing how the struggle continued when Chauvin got involved. And there is more. Take a listen to what the defense argued. Nelson also argued that Floyd's heart disease, as long as his use of fentanyl and methamphetamine, significantly contributed to his death. He even cited the county medical examiner's findings. So Dr. Baker's conclusions that Mr. Floyd's arteriosclerotic and hypertensive disease played a role in the death. During rebuttal, prosecutor Jerry Blackwell talked about the 46th witness, Common Sense. You were told that Mr. Floyd died because his heart was too big. The reason George Floyd is dead is because Mr. Shulman's heart was too small. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.