Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Virginia mom Bellamy Gamboa's missing, her ex is arrested

Episode Date: July 30, 2018

Bellamy Gamboa disappeared in early July from her Virginia Beach home, leaving behind 4 children. The 50-year-old mom is still missing, although her ex boyfriend -- and father of her toddler twins -- has been charged with 2nd-degree murder and “contributing to the delinquency or abuse of a child.” Nancy Grace digs into the case with private investigator Vincent Hill, lawyer Ashley Willcott, psychologist Caryn Stark, & CrimeOnline.com reporter Leigh Egan. Writer Missi Rasmussen and private investigator Jacqueline Heller, co-authors of the upcoming book "She's Not Here: The Strange Disappearance of Lisa Irwin," & psychologist Dr. Chloe Carmichael, also join Nancy for a look at the baby Lisa Irwin cold case.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph. A young mom goes missing. She is absolutely gorgeous. The family begging for help along with the FBI and Virginia virginia police i'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us today we need you now more than ever let me just start with the tip line 1-800 lock you up 1-800-562-8887 this is urgent we are on the search for a beautiful young mom bellany gamboa repeat bellamy gamboa fbi and virginia police searching for the missing mom of four you know in older sister fashion bellamy gamboa texts her younger sister, Charisse, to check in on her, her family, her dog.

Bellamy in Virginia Beach, Virginia and Charisse in Orange County. That's California. The sisters live across the country from each other but are always in touch. Are any of you like that? Because I am. I've got my brother and my sister in two different parts of the country. I'm on it every day. People be in text or phone, so I know everybody's okay. It's not working that way for Bellamy Gamboa's sister.

Let's start at the top with me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Lee Egan, renowned New York psychologist Karen Stark, judge, lawyer, founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com Ashley Wilcott. Last but not least, former cop turned PI Vincent Hill. Lee Egan, how is this unfolding? Just let's start at the beginning because right now we're getting a break in the case. Let's start though at the beginning with Bellamy Gamboa. How do I know she's missing and she's not stretched out on Miami Beach getting a tan? Well, as you said, Nancy, the family talks daily.

And on July 2nd, that did not happen. She was not answering her text. She didn't show up for work. She didn't call. Nothing. They heard nothing at all. When that happened, the family became concerned and started searching for her. Hold on just a moment, because my brother calls me constantly Karen Stark

I think you've met him actually he doesn't call me constantly but he does call and says I called you I called you you didn't call me back and he's right he's always right but I make a point to put my phone away. And, you know, for hours when I'm with the twins, I try not to even have it around them. And I learned the hard way. Karen, remember when I had Coco the cat? When I would get on my then Blackberry, he would turn around and walk off. All right?

So how do you think it affects children? I learned it from the cat. He would just leave. And so I try not to have it. And my brother's always right. He has called and I haven't seen it and I haven't called back. So he always gets me. You got me. So how Lee, you really got my attention. Not because she wasn't returning texts, but when she didn't show up for work. Okay. Cause that's big. Jackie Howard, if you don't show up for work, I'm calling the police,

and I'm reporting Alan Duke, okay, first of all. But back to you, Lee, what do you mean she didn't show up from work? Bellamy was the type of person who, even if she was a few minutes late, would call from the elevator to her boss and let her know, I'm almost there. She never missed work, never, ever. And her employer was so concerned when he didn't hear from her that he actually sent police to her apartment to check on her.

So it was a big red flag that she didn't show up to work. You know what they call that, Ashley Wilcott, judge, lawyer, founder of childcrimewatch.com, they call that evidence of routine. And I saw it really come to the forefront in the case of Adnan Syed. You remember him? He was the focus of Serial, the podcast. P.S., he did it, by the way.

But that's a whole other can of worms, can of worms, because Adnan Syed had a rigid routine. He went to school. He got out of school. He had track practice, and he did this, this, this, and then he went to services with his dad every night. And for him to break out of that routine, the one day his girlfriend is killed, that's very unusual. So here, that's what we have, evidence of routine.

And that, pardon the pun, routinely comes into court. Explain why it's so important, Ashley. It's so important Ashley it's so important because that is evidence during the investigation to prove that something either happened to someone and that's why they broke routine or that they never had a routine and they're kind of out there doing their thing so it's really imperative because what that indicates in this case is most likely something happened to her because she was not one to break her routine vincent hill private eye explain to me your former cop national pd why is it cops always say and no

offense i'm on your side okay uh unless you track somebody down and beat them in the head or shoot them all right but typically i'm on the side of the cops Vincent why the cops always say oh she's just out with her boyfriend she'll show up why do they do that well Nancy because there's nothing illegal about being a missing adult because you're an adult you don't have to be responsible or answer to anyone so there's nothing illegal or ie suspicious about being a missing adult unfortunately that's always the default that police go to, but that's the law. Okay, all right. You're right.

You got me over the barrel on that one. So Karen Stark, when she misses her work, that, in my mind, starts the timeline. I'm going to backtrack in a a minute but that's the first time we know for sure something is amiss well she's changing her routine and on top of that that is the beginning Nancy but she is not in touch with her teenage twins and she usually is and that that is even more telling to me because, you know, you're a mom and the twins are everything to you. She would never miss talking to them before they had a game. And all of a sudden, she's gone.

She's not in touch with them. You're right, Karen. That speaks more than even missing work that morning. Lee Egan, she's right with me, Lee Egan, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Right now, we've got breaking news in the case of missing Bellamy. We have not found Bellamy, though. Bellamy Gamboa. Lee, so what do we know?

We know she wasn't at work that Monday morning. What else do we know as to her last credible sighting? Credible. In other words, I can corroborate it the last credible sighting was from her I guess he'd be a former boyfriend he did see her but it's unclear when he saw her his timeline kept changing well then that's not credible so that that's not really helping me I got to go with something credible we know on Friday June 29 she was checking in with her little sister in california we know that there are screenshots out there of the conversation we know she was there then this

mother of four very tight family bond two days later on sunday cherie says the sisters communicated again on Instagram by liking each other's photos. Now, Ashley Wolcott, we often hear people getting your cell phone and pretending they're you. I don't really think that would extend to liking your sister's photos. No, absolutely. That makes no sense at all. It just, who would do that? Why would they do that? You have to look at everything we know up until this point.

And the fact that she's disappeared, nobody's heard from her. She didn't go to work. She broke routine. All of these things are amiss. I cannot believe that someone would take the phone and like the photo. Yeah, that's not, usually if you're trying to fake being somebody on their phone, you'll send a text message or something overt like that. Now, so that gives me, Lee, I think on Sunday that would be let's see

30 days has September April June and November so now I'm at July 1 July 1 I think I am on a Sunday Monday morning July 2 she doesn't show up that starts my timeline right there I think she was alive on Sunday night she's not at work on Sunday morning so Sunday I wonder what time that was on Sunday but we know she was alive I think on Sunday Lee Egan, what's the next thing that happens? Her boss says she's not there on Monday. The family starts saying, hey, where is she? What about her vehicle? Did she drive to work, Lee?

Supposedly she drove to work. But the biggest thing that happened after she didn't show up for work, with her teens, she's a team mom on the sons of baseball team. And she, anytime a game would start, she would text all the teammates and do like a, like an encouraging tweet, say, you know, go team and, you know, just get them ready for the game. That never happened. And then that's when the family went into a panic because that is something that she absolutely would never miss now hold on let me get this straight what day was the game that was on july 2nd that's monday monday evening yes

okay so that's even that's very strong evidence because she's breaking we know about her vehicle? We think she drives to work, but isn't it true her car was found abandoned to Lee Egan? What, if anything, can you tell me about her car? Okay, so her 2015 gold Ford Focus was found abandoned. They found it on July 3rd. We're still not sure who took the car there, but it was parked in front of a dumpster, and the maintenance people couldn't get to the trash, so they called in and had it towed. And the police picked, actually, they found it on July 2nd, and then the police found it in tow, in impound, on July 3rd.

Wow. So that gives me July 2nd again. July 2nd is that Monday. We're back starting the timeline July 2nd. Her car was there blocking the dumpster. The trash people couldn't get it. And that's how it ends up in impound. Then she's reported missing.

And that's when cops get a hold of it it was found parked next to a dumpster about four miles from where she was last seen now this is what we know we know that a friend of hers tiffany hazley says that the location where her car was found is very unusual because it's not anywhere Bellamy would visit. All right? So it's not like she dropped it there and went for a hike or a jog. Somebody took it there. And that, Vincent Hill, private eye, former cop,

is very important because they got to process this car and find fingerprints, hopefully, DNA, something. What about it, Vincent? Finding your car by a dumpster, what does that tell you? Yeah, that's very troubling, Nancy. Not only do they have to process the car, but if I was investigating that scene, I'd process that dumpster because usually people don't park their car next to a dumpster because

it's trashy, it's dirty, people walk by it. So there could be something in that dumpster that may lead to the discovery of this young mother there is a financial reward for tips information leading to Bellamy's whereabouts at this hour we're still looking for Bellamy but also breaking news right now someone has been taken into custody we know that we still don't know where bellamy is lee egan crime online.com investigative reporter the breaking news what is it bellamy's 42 year old former boyfriend lamont johnson has been arrested for second-degree murder and four counts of contributing to the delinquency or abuse of a child. Oh, no.

Ashley. Ashley Wilcott. We don't have a body. We don't know where she is. She's still missing. But that abuse of a minor charge, what does that tell you? Well, obviously bad news is what it tells me and we don't know who the victims are of that um child abuse but all around bad bad bad because not only are we

missing a mother now we know there's of Gamboa's twin infants and she had been saying just before her disappearance that she was living in fear. The tip line 800-LOCK-YOU-UP, 800-562-5887. Please help us find Bellamy Gamboa. It is so hard to work cold cases, especially when you know your colleagues have already picked the case clean. But there's a former prosecutor named Kelly Siegler who's a true champion for justice on a mission across America. What I love about Oxygen's Cold Justice is that Kelly and her team of detectives take on real unsolved murder cases and get real answers for victims and their families. You'll love how immersive the show is. You feel like you're right there riding shotgun with the team.

They're passionate crusaders for justice and that's what makes each case so personal to the team. Watch the new season of Cold Justice Saturday at 6, 5 Central on Oxygen. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph. A beautiful baby girl goes missing. What happened to baby Lisa?

The disappearance of baby Lisa Renee Irwin has mystified the public ever since she goes missing on the early morning hours of October 4. Her mom and dad still confounded about what happened to baby Lisa. She had been in her bed when mom checked on her at 6 40 p.m. onay night but when dad jeremy gets home from work from the night shift on tuesday he discovers the front door unlocked cell phones missing along with baby lisa mommy says she heard nothing with me missy rasmussen writer and co-author of upcoming book, She's Not Here, The Strange Disappearance of Lisa Irwin. Jacqueline Heller, private investigator and co-author of that book, She's Not Here, The Strange Disappearance of Lisa Irwin. Dr. Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist and founder of TransformationProducts.com, Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com, along with former cop turned PI, Vincent Hill.

To Jacqueline Heller. Jacqueline, I want to dissect what happened the night baby Lisa goes missing. Now, earlier in the day, mom was spotted grocery shopping. What can you tell me about that? She was spotted in the store with her brother. She purchased the box of wine that her and the neighbor had consumed. She had also purchased some diapers. Deborah and her brother went home. Jeremy went to work. The brother left. Samantha, which is the neighbor, and Deb were on the porch. Another neighbor came down the street, hung out with them. The witness stated that he didn't see any of the kids. And then he left. The girls, you know, Deb went inside, turned, the neighbor saw

her turn the lights off, and Deb went to bed. Okay, let me understand this scenario. With me, Jacqueline Heller and Missy Rasmussen. Missy, that day, the mom is caught on surveillance video at a grocery store. She's with her own brother, and they're shopping. Do they have the children with them, Missy? No, they are just the two of them. The children are at home with Jeremy. Okay.

So nothing odd there. They pick up items, including I think it was a box of wine. They come home. Jeremy at some point leaves for his night job. He says the children are all fine. At that point, baby Lisa specifically. He leaves. at that point, baby Lisa specifically, he leaves, and the wife, Deb, and Samantha, and another neighbor then go and sit on the front porch and consume wine.

Do we know, Missy, how long they were out there drinking? A while. It was approximately 6.30, 6.40 when she, you know, put Lisa in her crib and the other children are sitting in the living room watching a movie. The neighbor had a child as well who was over there and they essentially at that time went outside and started started you know drinking and talking what i'm trying to get at missy is that of course but how long were they there and did not see or hear baby lisa um it was about 10 30 so a good four hours about 10 30 that um that Deb called it a night. Sam goes back to her house and witnesses the lights going off at Deb's house. Sam continued to stay outside for a little while longer with the other neighbor.

So essentially, in my opinion at that time, there were still eyes on that house. But the baby had not been seen or heard from for four hours, 6.30 to 10.30? Not from any reports that I have seen or read. Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, and founder of childcrimewatch.com. Four hours of sitting on the front porch drinking. I'm not judging, don't care. What I care about is baby Lisa. Now, later, the mom said she checked the baby at 1030 when she went in and cut the lights off. That story has changed. So I'm trying to establish a timeline here. From 630 on, if she did not check the baby, the baby was unattended,

which means anyone could have come in the house while mommy's on the front porch with a box of wine and taken the baby. I don't know if that's far-fetched or not, but it's possible, Ashley. It is possible. You've put all the chronologically together, and it is possible, and it scares the heck out of me, right? Like, this is anybody's worst nightmare. Your 10-month-old disappears in the middle of the night, but you've got 6.30 p.m. until 4 a.m., which is a long window to narrow down when it may have happened. Deborah, the mom says she last saw her daughter at either 6.40 or 10.30. The accounts differ. Missy Rasmussen and Jacqueline Heller here, they have studied the case very carefully. Jacqueline Heller, I know exactly, exactly the last time I saw the twins. Oh, exactly.

I know the last time I saw my own children. Exactly. Now, let me understand something. Missy has told me that her, Deb, story has changed regarding when she saw Lisa. Right. Tell me about that change of story. I think she might have got it confused, you know, being a little bit buzzed. She could have walked by, stood in the doorway.

What I think is important is not only the fact that she changed her story, but the fact that she did pass that lie detector test. That's very important. She did pass a lie detector test, and those things are hard to beat. Yes, they are. I've got a question for you. Was the baby in the same room as the other children or no? That's something that we don't know for sure. Well, doesn't the mom know what room the baby was sleeping in? Well, apparently, baby Lisa was sick that night, and the mom had stated that she laid her in her crib,

and then later on, Lisa was standing up. Debra went back in and tucked her in and went back outside. But in the room where she tucked her in, was she in the room with the other children? Did they sleep in the same room together? No, Lisa has her own room. So baby Lisa was in her room, and the other children were in a separate room. In the living room together no lisa has her own room so baby lisa was in her room and the other children were in a separate room in the living room yeah this is what we know that evening um the mother deborah was also caring for lisa's two older half brothers they were asleep in another room

she admits she had been drinking wine that night that is not felony. She admits that she had too much to drink and was drunk. She also says she had taken a prescription medication for anxiety. So you got to take all that into account when her stories get confused. Okay. When she says she saw it either 630 or 1030, it's going to be hard for her to remember under those conditions what she saw. We know she is, though, there are witnesses with her on the front porch, Vincent Hill, private investigator. And I find it hard to believe that this mom could have harmed the baby and then gone and sat out and had a box of wine with her neighbors.

That's a little hard to believe. I mean, could she have done that? Yes, she could have. But I think having had a lot of wine and the medication, it would have been really hard for her to fake off having killed her baby. Yeah. I think that would have been very difficult for her to do. It would have been hard to pull off Nancy.

And even let's back up earlier in that afternoon. I mean, she was out buying diapers for the baby. So that shows she was caring for the baby at some point. So we can't hold the fact that she was out drinking wine against her. Anything could have happened within those four hours that led to Lisa's disappearance. We are talking about the disappearance of a beautiful baby girl, Lisa Irwin. Now, it's my understanding, back to Jacqueline Heller, PI and author, the dad, Jeremy Irwin, is an electrician.

He comes home from work around 4 a.m. the next morning. He is the one that discovers Lisa is gone. Is that right, Jacqueline? Yes. And what else does he find in the home? Apparently, Deb had also taken in a stray kitten that night as well. And the kitten was in the bed with her son. The other little boy had gotten up and went to his room sometime during the night.

So we don't know if he had gotten up and went to his bed before Lisa was taken or after she had already disappeared. Joining me right now, the founder of Class Kids Foundation, the survivor of crime, his daughter, beautiful Polly, was taken from their home. Mark Class is joining me. Mark, you know, there's been so much controversy surrounding the disappearance of Lisa Irwin. You know the facts. Mommy on the front porch with neighbors for several hours having a box of wine, also on anti-anxiety medication. The dad had gone to work, an overnight shift as an electrician. That has been verified. What happened? Way in, Mark Klass. Well, Nancy, I've been revisiting this case, as have many

people recently, and I continue to see the mother just in tears. I mean, she's obviously in horrible shape. She feels terrible about what happened. And I have to believe from watching her that she had nothing to do with this disappearance, that against all odds, somehow somebody came into this house and took little baby Lisa, and she hasn't been seen since. But I really don't believe it's the parents at all. But I do believe the parents made so many critical errors as far as the moving timelines, as far as the people they brought in to help them, as far as their behavior during the entire investigation, that the investigation derailed. And it became about something else entirely. When you say the investigation derailed, what do you mean by that, Mark Klass?

Well, listen, they brought in a high-priced defense attorney from New York City, for goodness sake, and also a high-profile private investigator from New York City, both individuals who had absolutely no experience with missing child cases. And under the direction of the lawyer, Joe Pacapino, their children were not allowed to be interviewed by law enforcement. For goodness sake, these were boys that were in the house when the crime occurred. And for whatever reason, the lawyer is throwing shade at law enforcement by not letting them be part of the interview. So it really became almost about what's going on with these people and why are they being so mysterious and uncooperative in the way this is being investigated. Well, you know, you got two people, ordinary people like all of us, and a high-priced lawyer comes in from New York City and says, listen, stop talking to the cops.

They're looking at you. Well, of course they're looking at the mother and father, Mark Klass, because that's where you always start looking. But, Mark, just pretend you're not here for a moment. To Ashley Wilcott, ChildCrimeWatch.com, I always hold up Mark Klass as the gold standard. When Polly went missing, he says, search my place, search my office, search my car. He practically laid on the courthouse steps demanding that cops do whatever they wished with him

so they could look for Polly and rule him out. He did not hire a lawyer and refused to speak to cops. On the other hand, Ash, these people, I mean, when you have a high-priced lawyer saying stop talking to cops right now, they're going to do it. Of course they are. It looked horrible at the time, Ashley. It does look horrible. I agree with you.

And you never know what you're going to do unless, God forbid, you're in this horrific, tragic situation. But I agree with you. You are not going to lawyer up and not talk and not share information. Instead, what you're going to do is say, come in, do everything you can. I've got to find my child. I've got to find my child. I've got to find my child. And why would a lawyer say, don't talk to the police? That's my other piece. I mean, it just

doesn't add up. It bothers me. To Mark Klass. Mark, when Polly first went missing, you went through pure hell and you stayed in hell for years and years and years but at the time what did police how did police treat you when polly went missing well they were pretty up front with me nancy they were very good they told me that i would be a person of suspicion until i was able to eliminate myself and that the best way to do that was to talk to law enforcement and answer all of their questions, which I was more than happy to do. Another thing they did, which I think was really beneficial, is they gave me my own liaison with law enforcement. It was a there were actually two of them. There was Mike Neitz, the great detective who has since passed, and Eddie Fryer, the local FBI agent, who was available to me at all times

and was very upfront with me, answered all my questions, told me when he thought I would be interfering in the investigation. And by that, I mean bringing him endless tips from psychics. As far as what that lawyer did to baby Lisa's parents by telling them not to cooperate with the police, he had a whole different focus. Their focus should have been bringing baby Lisa home. The lawyer's focus is protecting baby Lisa's parents. So you're at absolute odds there as to what exactly you're going to accomplish through this investigation. And unfortunately, because he was high profile, because somebody else was paying for him, because he was surrounded by reporters,

I guess the parents listened to him and decided to follow his advice as opposed to their own gut feeling. Well, you make an excellent point. However, when Deb took her lie detector test, the police department knew that she had passed. And instead of, you know, moving on to the next lead and, you know, clearing the parents of their involvement, they lied and they hounded and they harassed. The Crimes Against Children Division, who was handling Lisa's case, in 2016, several of them were suspended or fired due to their inability to work cases.

Jacqueline Heller, private investigator and author of the upcoming book about Lisa Irwin, pointing out, you know, the inner workings of police at this time. Vincent Hill, private investigator, Missy, and I about the mom having had a box of wine on anti-anxiety meds on the front porch with witnesses placing her there for several hours. The capability she may or may not have had to form a lie about baby Lisa. I find it hard to believe that a mom could have a box of wine and on meds and keep up a lie for hours on end with neighbors, knowing that her baby is dead inside. I find that hard to believe, Vincent. Agree or disagree? No, I agree 100 percent, Nancy.

I mean, it just would have been hard to pull that off. And I understand why investigators initially looked at the parents because they're, or at least the mother, they're closest to the scene. They said, oh, you've been out drinking. How do we know you were drinking? There's this time discrepancy. But after she was cleared via the lie detector test, the biggest gap here was that investigators didn't move on. They continued to look at the mother. Well, you can't rely on a lie detector alone.

There's a reason they're not allowed in court and i agree with the cops on this i don't think that they should have dropped it looking at the parents just because she passed a lie detector test however if her story is corroborated and there's no evidence to support she harmed the baby, I certainly don't think the mom should have been harassed. Hold on. Dr. Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist, wants in. Weigh in, Dr. Chloe. Well, Nancy, I actually differ with you on the idea regarding alcohol and medication. I think that if a person is drinking and using drugs,

a lot of times that's actually part of what we call dissociative behavior, which means that they're actually trying to dull their nerves or dull their awareness or maybe act in a little bit of a dazed manner, kind of take the edge off a little bit. Also, as far as being seen purchasing diapers, I mean, you know, just to kind of be the devil's advocate here, you could also deliberately be seen purchasing diapers in order to, you know, demonstrate a future-oriented mindset regarding your child. So I wouldn't really read too much into those particular events. Well, you know, hold on just a moment. Let's talk about the hard evidence that we have. Is it true to Jacqueline Heller that a cadaver dog reportedly smelled or hit on an unusual scent,

a cadaver dog, in the parents' bedroom? And were there burnt baby clothes found in a neighborhood dumpster? Yes, the dumpster fire, there was baby clothes. The Irwins were questioned about the baby clothes. They stated they were not Lisa's. For the cadaver dog hit, Missy, go ahead and tell her about the cadaver dog. Yes, I mean, there was a cadaver dog hit in the bedroom. As far as we know, there has been no follow-up. Well, wait a minute. For a cadaver dog to hit, that's a really big deal.

For a cadaver dog that hits only on dead human remains, that's a really big deal for a cadaver dog to hit in the parents' bedroom. No, I agree with you. So I think we need to rethink your claim. Police, quote, harassed the parents after a cadaver dog hits in their house. I guess they did keep up the investigation. Well, we don't know if someone passed away in the house before they moved in. You know, there could have been another resident who lived in the house because i do believe that it was a rental and you know they could have hit on on something that

somebody that had previously lived there and passed away do you have any evidence at all to support that theory anything well we've been trying to make contact with the parents they haven't you know we want to bring our own cadaver dog team. I do have a team that is ready to go. Now, my question is, do you have any evidence to support your theory that you just espoused that maybe in the past somebody else rented the home and died in that room? Well, that's something that I want to talk to the parents about. I don't have it yet. Okay. To Mark Klass, founder of Klass Kids Foundation,

what do you make of it, Mark? Well, we already know that the local law enforcement agency was incompetent. I believe one of your guests just said that many of them were just released from that particular squad. I always believe and I always say that when you have these kinds of situations when children have been kidnapped, particularly out of their home, for goodness sake, you need to bring the FBI in. And you need to bring the FBI in because they do have the expertise. They do have the resources. They work these kinds of cases on a regular basis and they know exactly what they're doing. And I don't think oversight like this would have occurred had they been more active or even active in the investigation and then i guess one wants to know if if they if other dogs were brought in to corroborate what the first dog hit on well we've got a whole nother can of worms

to open mark class and that is the sighting of a man in the neighborhood with a baby that very night. And if that sighting is true, then the mom, the dad, are exonerated. What do we know, if anything, about that guy, Missy Rasmussen? What do we know about the sighting of an unrelated male in the neighborhood that evening carrying a baby? Well, there were actually two sightings of a man carrying a baby. The first one was at approximately 12.15 Tuesday morning. There was a couple who lived in the neighborhood. The man was leaving for work. He noticed a man walking down the street holding a baby. He told his wife. His wife continued to,

they thought it was odd. She continued to watch from the window. And later at approximately, um, four o'clock in the morning, a man riding a motorcycle noticed a man with a baby. The description of the man with the motorcycle remembered it distinctly because he thought it was chilly the baby wasn't wearing anything but a diaper and he remembered thinking i could offer them a ride if i weren't on my motorcycle and so those were the two sightings four hours apart from each other. So if they're the same man, I don't know. If it's the same baby, I don't know. But I mean, the likelihood to Ashley Wilcott of there being two different men in the neighborhood fitting the same general description, carrying the same baby. I mean, it's it's astronomically unlikely. It is, and I would be on that so fast

because it is unlikely, and that could have been their baby. It's a little boggling to me why there wasn't a real urgency around all of these different pieces by the family, by the parents. Well, the parents aren't investigators. It's not about the parents. It's about law enforcement and their ability to get to the

bottom of what happened here. Ten-month-old baby Lisa, last seen in her crib, according to her mother. Then she simply vanished. Even to this day, Lisa's parents still insist they believe their daughter is alive. Now, police originally zero in on the mom, Deborah Bradley, as a possible suspect, but the parents now say they hold no grudges against the police. Why do they focus on her, the dad, Jeremy, at work as an electrician on an overnight shift? The mom, drinking on the front porch with neighbors, the night baby Lisa goes mincing, she eventually tells cops she didn't remember if she checked on the baby when she went to bed around 10.40.

That starts our timeline when the baby was last seen by her at 6.40 p.m. Reminder, she has passed a lie detector test now let me understand to Jacqueline Heller did anyone else see the baby at 6 40 p.m other than the mother not that I'm aware of no the boys the boys's statements whenever they might have told police, they have not been made public. So if the boys have said that they've seen her, that information has not been released. The moment Jeremy Irwin gets home at 4 a.m., he says he finds the front door unlocked and Lisa missing from her crib. He immediately calls 911. Now, here's another fact. To private investigator, former cop, Vincent Hill,

the family reports three of their cell phones were also missing from the home. Nothing else was taken. What does that mean? Well, Nancy, it could mean that whoever did this didn't want the family to have any outside communication, at least for a while until they got out of the area. You know, it's unclear why those were taken, but we can only speculate that that could have been one of the reasons. Now, this is what we know about the missing cell phones.

They were pinged close to the Irwin home, and they were accessed throughout the night Lisa went missing. What does that really mean? They were accessed throughout the night that Lisa went missing to Missy Rasmussen. What does that mean? They were pinged throughout the night? They were pinged that night. And after that night, there was no more, you know, you know, contact with those phones. And there were numerous attempts through the evening to access the voicemail, to access the Internet, and to make a phone call.

Okay, hold on. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. So somebody during the night, and this is the night that the mom says she's asleep, the dad's at work, someone was accessing the voicemail or trying to access the voicemail? Attempting to. Attempting to, yes. The phones were disconnected. Did they get in? No. They were on a suspended service. Jacqueline Heller, weigh in.

The phones were, they attempted to, but there was like a restriction due to nonpayment, where the phones could receive a phone call, but they could not call out. Okay, so somebody was trying to get into the voicemail of the phones. So are you telling me you could call the phone itself and leave a message, or you could not use not use the you could call the phone and the person could answer but the person could not make an outgoing call on the phone due to being suspended for non-payment so let me understand this you're saying somebody tried to get into the voicemail and could not or they did get into the voicemail they did not they attempted and it was they did not were not able to get through to it see that's confusing to me

mark class because why would anybody else want to listen to the mom's voicemail well it's confusing to me as well i think one thing it tells us though is that this is not an international conspiracy and this is not a criminal mastermind that whatever happened to little baby lisa originated in and around that community itself that it may have been a crime of well it wasn't a crime of opportunity but it did uh it may have been planned out to some level but we're not talking about rocket scientists here and there should have been enough information to be able to move this um investigation forward more quickly than it has. I'm trying to figure out what they mean by the cell phones were pinged throughout the night

around the Irwin home. What does that mean, Jacqueline Heller? Well, the phones were pinged less than a mile and a half away from the Irwin's home. So we know when the phones were taken, they weren't taken very far because they were pinged 1.1 miles away from the Irwin's house. Wow, that is very precise. We also know police issue an Amber Alert very quickly, releasing pictures of Lisa, her big blue eyes staring at the camera. Cops combed fields near the home.

They drained wells. They even searched neighbors' homes looking for Lisa. The media immediately became involved, and information was coming out daily, the pinging information, the cadaver dog. Now, one tip provoked a lot of interest and regarded a handyman named Jersey Joe. He had a criminal record.

He worked in the neighborhood. To Jacqueline Heller, what did we learn about John Jersey Joe Tanko? He was a handyman. He worked odd jobs for cash in the neighborhood. He was staying at a house around the corner from the Irwins. He was tending to that homeowner's lawn. In 2009, he had a class C felony burglary for which he was incarcerated for three years. And in 2011, he was incarcerated for five years for tampering with a motor vehicle registration.

I think like changing the plates or something like that. But he was cleared as a suspect. He was cleared, I think, because he did not match the description of the guy seen carrying the baby. We also know Jeremy, the father, says he finds a pushed-in window screen at the front of the home. To Vincent Hill, private investigator, that is significant to me. The door is unlocked. The window screen at the front of the home. To Vincent Hill, private investigator, that is significant to me. The door is unlocked. The window screen at the front of the home is pushed in. Mommy passes a

lie detector test. We've got to start our timeline at 640. She doesn't know whether she checked on the baby before she went to bed or not. So the timeline must start at 640 when she is visibly on the front porch and the husband is gone and the baby is alone in the home. I personally think since the mom has been apparently cleared that baby Lisa's kidnap happened after the mom went to sleep, Vincent, but I want to go back to that push in screen. What about it, Vincent? Yeah, it's highly suspicious, Nancy, but I would actually say the timeline needs to go back even a little bit before 640, just so you can capture anything, because what I would do as an investigator, talk to neighbors. Did you see anyone around the home at that time? Even the neighbor she was on the porch drinking with, hey, did you see anything

suspicious, you know, in the six o'clock timeframe, 630, 640. So you got to take that timeframe a little further back so we can get the whole picture. We are looking back over the evidence and we are learning about a police affidavit that explains why investigators removed carpet home, brought in equipment to x-ray the walls and the floors, spent hours digging in the home's backyard, and restricted news helicopters from videotaping overhead. Court affidavits point to a search that took place two days before a 16-hour search. During that search, investigators find a garden area with portions of dirt having an appearance of recently being disturbed or overturned. This after an FBI cadaver dog was brought into the home with the family's consent and hit on the scent of a dead human

in an area of the Bradley's bedroom floor near the bed. Items were taken from the home including a comforter, purple shorts, a glowworm toy, a blanket from the Cars movie, rolls of tape, a Disney T-shirt, a tape dispenser. We know that all of that happened contrary to what we've been told about a shoddy investigation. This is what the affidavits show, Mark Klass. One of the things that really complicates this, Nancy, is the fact that when children are kidnapped from their homes, they're almost always middle, they're all always middle school aged girls. And they're taken for reasons of sexual perversion. The idea that somebody's going to take a little one-year-old baby and everything that goes around that,

a child that totally needs 24-7 care, is rather hard to fathom, unless the baby was being taken to give to somebody who felt they needed a baby or perhaps a person that took it felt that. But nothing adds up you know nothing adds up in this investigation well i can't get away from uh completely unrelated witnesses observing a man carrying a baby that day in the neighborhood and that baby has never been able to be tracked. I can't ignore that. I also

cannot ignore a cadaver dog hitting in the home. So those are two very different scenarios. But again, you know, what, what do you, what emphasis do you place Ashley Wilcott on the fact mom did pass that lie detector? I do believe in lie detector tests. So that's great that she passed it. But it also boils down to what exactly did they ask in that test? Were there questions that were unasked or does she know pieces of information they neglected to ask about?

I think you have to look at the details of that. The other thing is I'm gonna agree with Mark, absolutely. Somebody knows what happened. Somebody knows the situation. And often on cold cases, eventually someone says something. It's how we find out what really happens to these kids. I think that could happen in this case. We don't know what all she was asked on that lie detector test. Well, we also know to Dr. Chloe Carmichael, New York psychologist,

that the parents, the mother and the father, both signed consent forms to allow searches of their home, their shed, their cars, their work van, their computer, their camper, that they gave police access to their property. You know, very often families don't do that. They don't let people search their property or their homes, and that immediately makes me suspicious. In this case, they did allow police to do all of that. Well, that's true. I mean, I think that's partly what's so confusing about the situation is because there do seem to be maybe some mixed signals on the part of the parents.

But like you said, Nancy, it would be a total red flag. It would make anybody completely suspicious if the parents refused to allow that search. So I would consider that, as you're saying, really kind of just a basic display of cooperation. That's really about all I would read into that personally. What about it, Mark Klass? Well, no, I think she's exactly right. And they made so many mistakes in the way that they dealt with this, both publicly in the media and with law enforcement, that suspicion is going to just continue to fall back on them. Although I think at this point in time, it's pretty clear that they are not responsible for the disappearance of their own child. And I also want to point out that some of the, as you call them, mistakes were at the advice of a lawyer, a lawyer telling them, hey, they're looking at you. They

think you harmed the baby. You better clam up unless you want to go to jail for life. You're going to get framed on this. I mean, when you come up on two ordinary working class people like all of us and you got a high price lawyer telling you to be quiet, you do it, right? I mean, am I missing something in that scenario to Ashley Wilcott? No, I don't think you are at all. The search for baby Lisa goes on. Mark Klass, founder of Klass Kids, weigh in. Where do you think the investigation stands now? Well, it's an open investigation and hopefully it hasn't

gone totally cold. I agree with the parents that baby Lisa could still very much be alive. The idea that somebody would take a little one-year-old girl simply to murder her is very, very difficult to fathom on any level. And we have to remember, we have to remember Elizabeth Smart. We have to remember J.C. Dugard. We have to remember Mitzi Sanchez. Those girls that were taken and after an extended period of time were found and were brought back home. Hopefully the new age progression picture that was just put out is going to jar somebody's memory and help us bring this case to the resolution that everybody hopes, which is a reunification of little baby Lisa with her family. That is the prayer of all

of us. Take a listen to baby Lisa's parents just in to know us, and catching up, and bringing our family back together. She's got to be out in public at some point. Somebody's going to see something that doesn't quite add up, and I hope that that's you know what makes them make the phone call and brings Lisa home there is still a $100,000 reward for information leading to the recovery of baby Lisa tip line eight one six four seven four tips tip s repeat eight one six four seven four eight four seven I-P-S. Repeat. 816-474-8477. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.