Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Waffle House Massacre leaves 4 dead, shooter claims he’s incompetent in self-arranged tv interview

Episode Date: August 17, 2018

Doctors who have examined Travis Reinking, the man accused of shooting 17 people, 4 fatally, at a Tennessee Waffle House in April, is too mentally unstable to stand trial. Prosecutors are asking a Nashville judge to decide if Reinking can be treated and stabilized so he can be tried. Nancy Grace looks at the case with Los Angeles defense lawyer Troy Slaten, Los Angeles psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, Southern California prosecutor Wendy Patrick, and Crime Stories reporter Pamela Furr. Forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, pathologist Dr. Michelle DuPre, and Crime Stories' Alan Duke also join Grace to discuss the case against a 16-year-old girl whole allegedly killed her 7-year-old nephew because he pestered her about playing a video game. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph. When we go celebrate, we take the twins to Waffle House. It's a big deal. Waffles, cheese eggs, grits, the works. We play the jukebox. Everybody has a great time. Not so this day in Tennessee when bullets rang out. And now, believe it or not, a stunning development in the Waffle House shooting case.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Remember this. A gunman who we fully believe to be Travis Ryan King arrived in the Waffle House parking lot in a pickup truck at 3.19 a.m. He sat in that truck for three and a half to four minutes. When he got out of the vehicle at about 3.23 a.m., he immediately used an assault type rifle to shoot two individuals who were outside of the restaurant. They were fatally wounded. He then went inside the restaurant, continued firing. One other person inside the restaurant was fatally wounded then.

An individual who was in the Waffle House, a patron, when he heard the gunshots actually ran back to the restroom area. He watched the gunman. He reported that he saw the gunman looking at his rifle. At that point, the shots had stopped. So he decided to rush the gunman, actually wrestled that assault rifle away, tossed it over the counter. At that point, the gunman then fled.

As he was in the Waffle House, he was wearing only a green jacket. No pants, no shirt, just a green jacket. As he reached the corner of the street next to the Waffle House, he shed the jacket. That's Nashville Police Spokesperson Don Aaron speaking about a double murder at the local Waffle House as everybody's settling in for waffles and grits and eggs and coffee. And now in a stunning turn of events, the shooter now claiming he's unfit to stand trial he had the sense to stalk the waffle house to wait till it was at its peak with customers when everyone wasn't paying attention sitting outside waiting for just the right number of people to be in there with his automatic weapon

goes in guns down people, and leaves. Joining me right now, Troy Slayton, famed defense attorney out of L.A., Dr. Bethany Marshall, L.A. psychoanalyst, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. And joining me on the scene there in Tennessee, Pamela Furr, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Pam, what does he mean he's unfit to stand trial? Well, that's what the medical experts from the state mental facility told prosecutors, that his condition is such that he can't stand trial and they believe he needs immediate judicial hospitalization. They don't believe that he can contribute information enough to his attorneys.

He even said in an interview with a local TV station here, he actually called a reporter, Reinking did, and said he hates his attorneys. He doesn't want to even have representation. He wants to represent himself. And so the doctors and the medical experts from that state facility here in Nashville say he cannot stand trial. He is not competent enough. You know, to Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, I don't believe it. I don't know what kind of number he's pulling on the doctors, but I can tell you this. Wendy, I was called by the elected district attorney out of court to go to a crime scene. The crime scene was a beautiful young mother of one who had committed suicide,

buck naked in her bed by shooting herself in the head. Wendy, when we picked up her pillow that she was lying, her head was lying on the pillow when she shot herself. Guess what was under the pillow, Wendy? Blood spatter. Now, how can that be when you shoot yourself in the head with your head lying on the pillow that the spatter from the gunshot wound goes under your pillow with your head on it? Long story short, her husband did it.

And guess what? He said he was insane. He was unfit to stand trial. He was incompetent. I went out and ambushed all of his friends. I found out he had been writing from the mental health facility, saying things like, stay cool and don't shoot your wife. Love, Dave.

How he said he planned to make sand sculptures and bead necklaces until they believed he was crazy to get out of going to jail. Well, let me tell you something. I blew every one of those letters up at Kinko's, which is what like this, killing four people, and then claim you can't assist your lawyers. Yeah, it's so frustrating, Nancy. And, you know, you and I have both attacked these findings. And the prosecutor doesn't have to accept this finding. They can actually have a trial on the finding as to whether or not he's incompetent to stand trial. Because it's true that people come up with these defenses and you hope that doctors are savvy and experienced enough

to be able to see through some of the antics. But we all know that they may be human and there may be, you may actually need a judge to hear the testimony of the doctors that agree he's incompetent and reverse that finding in order to have the man stand trial in this case and be held accountable, hopefully, to the victims and their families. Well, as a matter of fact, okay, Troy Slayton, L.A. defense attorney and Dr. Bethany Marshall are chomping at the bit to get in, but I want you guys to hear it from the horse's mouth. Here is the shooter, Ranking, who deigned to give a jailhouse interview. Yeah, he's crazy. Listen to that interview Pamela Furr was talking about.

Since Ranking's arrest, many have wondered if he'll try using the insanity defense. I asked him about his mental fitness. As for the shooting at the Waffle House, he wasn't ready to talk about that. I'd rather not just in the setting of that right now, but ranking did talk about his pending criminal case. He currently has two appointed lawyers,

but he says he plans to handle his own legal defense. The things I'm choosing to represent myself, civil, optional, you know, how that works, I use them like an attorney. Wow. That is ranking the shooter speaking to our friends at Channel 5 in Nashville, and Nick Barris in particular, giving a jailhouse interview to Dr. Bethany Marshall.

Wow. He says, I'm perfectly healthy. Then he goes, yeah, I'm not comfortable. I'm not comfy with talking about facts on the record. He knows his right to remain silent. He's not speaking about the facts because he doesn't yet know what his defense will be at trial. Doesn't want to lock himself into anything. And then goes on to trash his lawyers and say how

awful they are man he uh-uh he's crazy like a fox dr bethany well he sounds very articulate very oriented towards reality you know even though he did some very crazy things that suggested that he might be psychotic for instance he went he went to the White House. He demanded to inspect the lawn. He complained that Taylor Swift was stalking him. So obviously he's gone in and out of psychosis. That doesn't mean he's psychotic now. And he's been incarcerated long enough for them to stabilize him on medication. I understand this evaluation has gone on for some months.

I don't know why it can't take one day, but obviously they've stabilized him and he's just fine. You know, you can be psychotic and very clever and intentional about planning a crime. Remember Andrea Yates who drowned her children? Oh yes, I do. Okay. So she said that she needed that, that God told her to drown them. Otherwise Satan would take them to hell. However, she waited until Rusty left for work to drown them. So there was a mixture of delusion and intentionality and being very homicidal. So being, being psychotic or crazy does not mean you can't aid in your own defense. You can't think clearly or build a narrative about what happened. Right.

She waited for the husband to leave for work, locked the door so she wouldn't be disturbed, took the oldest child first to kill him so as the others wouldn't be, he wouldn't be alerted as she killed the others and they screamed and tried to run. Yes, she knew exactly what she was doing. So Troy Slayton, renowned L.A. defense attorney, in a competency trial, it's a bifurcated trial. First, you can strike a jury or just have a bench trial in front of the judge. And the only issue is, is the defendant, at the time of trial,

able to assist his or her lawyers? That's the only issue. And I would advise a competency trial, Troy Slayton. There's that pesky thing called the United States Constitution, Nancy. He is entitled under the Fifth and Sixth Amendment to due process. And the experts, not him, but it's the experts who evaluate him, who that's their job in life to look at people and determine their competency to make a recommendation to the court about not whether or not he's insane as a defense to the crime, but whether or not he can even stand trial. This isn't an insanity defense. This is about whether or not he can even stand trial. This isn't an insanity defense. This is about whether or not he's even competent to have a trial. And even if he's found incompetent,

that doesn't mean that he can't be restored to competency by having treatment. And then at some later time, maybe 30 days, maybe even 30 days, he's already been behind bars for months on medication to get him competent well then it's clearly not working trial you know what says you says you and ranking window treatments is one of those terms for something necessary but boring your blinds you don't even think about them unless you move or they break. Well, when they're right, everything in your home looks better. But when they're wrong, everything in your home looks tacky. But let's be honest, taking the time and the effort to pick out and buy blinds sounds expensive, boring, and then think of installing them yourself. Who wants to do that? But Blinds.com makes it really easy for you.

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it really easy for you. There's no excuse to leave up mangled blinds to make your whole home look cheap and tacky. Don't do it. Go to Blinds.com. And now for a limited time, get 20% off everything at Blinds.com. When you use promo code Nancy, repeat 20% off everything at blinds.com when you use promo code nancy repeat 20% off everything at blinds.com if you use the promo code nancy that's blinds.com promo code nancy for 20% off everything faux wood blinds cellular shades roller shades everything Blinds.com promo code Nancy. Rules and restrictions do apply. Just consider myself, I was, like I said, in that cage and I had the opportunity to either act or not act. And I chose to act because either way, in my mind I saw if I don't act, it's death. If I do act, I have a stronger possibility of living than just letting him come through the door.

So I just see myself like as a regular guy. I didn't mean to do this to be the hero by any means. It was just kind of like survival of the fittest type thing thing I'm sorry I couldn't get to the guy any faster or we could have got him out in the parking lot or something like that but you know I didn't know he was going to come in there armed to the teeth like that was no way for me to know that he was going to do that. I'm sorry for your family, your loved ones. I'm kind of speechless. I really don't. All I can say is words, but it's going to hurt.

Now, the man that comes into a local Waffle House at the peak of business and unloads a hail of bullets killing four people. Says he is unfit to stand trial. Let's go back in time and listen to what a witness says. It was just like pow, pow, pow, pow. It was like somebody was just going to town on a bass drum and it was, it wasn't the easiest thing. I just told people jump in the bathrooms as quick as you can. And so we pushed a couple girls into the back bathroom, and then me, a guy, and another lady, we went into my bathroom and locked it. And the shots just got louder.

I was totally scared to open the door. So we waited the 10 seconds. We heard no gunshots. And then you open the door and you cautiously peek out. We saw the magazine on the floor. There was a lady face down. She was gone. There was another lady with her head kind of tilted back on the bottom of the actual

booth. She was bleeding. Her leg was like completely ripped up to shreds. And then we walked out the door and then literally there was a man right there just head gone um look up the sidewalk there's another one gone seeing that type of yeah i'll never leave those yeah no i'll never leave you are hearing brennan mcmurray who was there at the waffle house um when the shooting broke out. Before that, you heard from the hero, James Shaw Jr., who describes himself as a regular guy who managed to save untold lives that day. And now the defendant claiming he is incompetent to stand trial.

So Pamela Furr, how is it that he can give jailhouse interviews, declare himself unperfectly healthy, and then has the savvy not to talk about the facts of his case? Good question. And it should be noted, he's the one that actually called News Channel 5 and the reporter Nick Barris. Okay, wait, wait, wait, stop right there, Pamela. Did you hear that, Wendy Patrick? Stop right there, Pamela Frar. Did you hear that, Wendy Patrick?

Wendy Patrick, a veteran California prosecutor, he called Channel 5 and arranged his jailhouse interview, I might add, in direct violation of a judicial gag order where he's not supposed to talk about his case. What? He calls, he has the wherewithal not supposed to talk about his case. What? He calls. He has the wherewithal to go to the jailhouse pay phone. You got to call collect. Call them collect.

Make a collect pay call. Get their number. Get the right reporter. Arrange a time. Wendy, this guy is not incompetent. And this is going to be great evidence in front of the court, Nancy, when the prosecutors attack and dispute the competency findings, or I should say the incompetency findings, because absolutely the sophistication, the savviness. And I understand the argument that, well, he's now been stabilized. But this, then great.

Then he's stable. He can go forth through trial. If he's going to claim insanity, as Troy was pointing out, that's now been stabilized. But this, then great, then he's stable, he can go forth through trial. If he's gonna claim insanity, as Troy was pointing out, that's entirely different. By the way, that's also gonna be difficult to prove given the strategy that went into planning this crime. But absolutely, everything you just mentioned, Nancy, finding the phone, knowing the number,

his voice on the phone, his demeanor, all of that belies the finding of incompetency. And a judge may reverse it. And on that trial goes in front of a jury on the merits where it belongs. Now, Troy Slayton, high profile L.A. defense attorney. I know you want to duke it out with Wendy and myself, but hold on. Let's hear it from a professional, a mental health care professional, Dr. Bethany Marshall with us, L.A. Psychoanalyst. Okay, Bethany, I did not know that little tidbit that Pamela Furr, joining us live right now in Nashville, Tennessee, just told me. She managed to dig that up for us. He goes to the payphone.

He knows to go to the payphone. He knows to go to the payphone. He knows how to place a collect call to a particular number that he had to find, to a particular reporter that he had to find, and set up a jailhouse interview and conduct the jailhouse interview where he says, I'm perfectly healthy, and refuses to talk about the facts of the case. Hello? This reminds me of a patient of mine who's paranoid schizophrenic, floridly psychotic, has delusions, cannot go into a restaurant without thinking that people can read her thoughts.

But she has a lot of money. She's a trust fund baby. She's married to somebody who's a very compassionate caregiver. So she'll go off her medications when she wants to get a lot of attention or engage in bad behavior. But when she gets in a fight with her husband, she will up her medications, come into session and tell a very articulate story about everything he's done to irritate her. Okay. The point being that even if this perp was floridly psychotic at the time of these homicides, which I do not believe he was, it is possible for him to get on a little itsy bitsy dose of antipsychotic,

raise his awareness, call reporters, weave a narrative about what happened. He can certainly stand trial, Nancy. You know, case in point to me was that his guns were confiscated at some point, right? The guns were given to his father. He convinced his father to give the guns back. In that case, he defended his need to have a gun and his dad handed the guns over. If he can do that with his own father, he can do it in a court of law. This mental evaluation has been underway for months after the shooting occurred late April. Now, what does it mean? This means that the families of four dead victims and all the people, can you imagine having John David and Lucy, my 10-year-olds in the Waffle House,

when a mass shooting breaks out? John Davis still runs and hides behind the chair when the flying monkeys come on the screen on The Wizard of Oz. What if they saw this? Now, I want you to judge for yourself. This guy researches a reporter, gets the phone number. Obviously, they have Internet behind bars. Goes to the pay phone, places a collect phone call, gets in touch with Channel 5 there in Nashville, Nick Barris, gets him to the jailhouse for this interview.

Listen to what he says. Do you think he's crazy? This is Travis Rankin. But what I'm thinking was the state of my behalf and stuff like that. Since Rankin's arrest, many have wondered if he'll try using the insanity defense. I asked him about his mental fitness. Yeah, no, I'm perfectly healthy. As for the shooting at the Waffle House, he wasn't ready to talk about that. I'd rather not. I'm just in the setting of that right now. wasn't ready to talk about that. But Reinking did talk about his pending criminal case.

He currently has two appointed lawyers, but he says he plans worked in my kind of journey. It's just horrible. I mean, you see people laying on the ground, you know what just happened. And you're right, you see it happen all the time. But when it happens right in front of you, it's kind of hard to forget it. It's kind of hard to put it aside. It's sad. It's tragic. And your buddy T, he was a cook here at Waffle House, right? Yeah, he was a cook. He was outside on a cigarette break. He actually waved at me, which is why I got out of my car to go talk to him while I waited for the crowd to chill out inside. And it just didn't happen that way. You are hearing a witness named Chuck who drove up to the Waffle House at the same time as a suspect. And I just learned something new to Troy Slayton, a veteran L.A. defense attorney.

He stopped to reload and brought along extra ammunition. I haven't gotten your response, Troy. He managed to somehow Google Local Channel 5 and find the reporter and set up his own, his very own private jailhouse interview where he says I'm perfectly healthy and refuses to talk about the facts of the case. He says he's not comfy discussing the facts of the case. He's going to save that for trial and then goes on to dis his lawyers. So you're telling me this guy's incompetent, Troy. You're still sticking to that. We don't let patients make their own diagnoses.

And thank goodness. I mean, heck, I've Googled myself many times and determined that I've had cancer by looking at WebMD. We let lawyers like you on the other side of the country? I've Googled myself and determined that I had cancer multiple times by looking up stuff on WebMD. It's a good thing that I don't diagnose myself because luckily I don't have cancer. But Nancy, what I'm saying is that the issue isn't whether he was competent at the time of the shooting. It doesn't matter whether he was competent when he was making that jailhouse interview with the local station. What matters is, is he able to rationally discuss the case with his attorneys? And does he have a rational and factual understanding of what's going on around him?

And luckily, we're going to leave that up to the mental health professionals in the state of Tennessee. Well, let's go to a mental health professional and analyze something different. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm quoting reportedly from Shondell Bess Brooks. And she says, Today, the American justice system stroked and increased my pain by informing my family the monster that killed my son at the Waffle House, my son, Aquila Da Silva, was found incompetent to stand trial. She says, this monster knew what he was doing when he took four lives, but now he doesn't understand. I'm sick to my stomach. This increased my pain 100 million times. 100 million times, she says. Can you even

imagine? I mean, Dr. Bethany, I've told you this story before when we were alone. I believe I was out in the LA CNN Bureau. Bethany, when my fiance's murderer was tried, I can hardly remember a thing. It was such a blur. I was in so much pain. It was like a haze. I don't even remember my dad, who never missed work, would take off every day from the railroad and drive me the two hours to the trial. I don't remember, but I can remember walking in, going up to the witness stand, testifying, looking at the jury, coming back down off the witness stand. I remember seeing for the first time Keith's bloody denim shirt sitting out on council table. And I walked past that.

And I got to the defense table. And I looked at the defendant. And he looked at me. He looked straight down in his lap. And then I looked at his lawyers. They looked at me. Then they looked straight down at their laps. Then I turned around, and I kept walking, and I remember the sound of my boots on the floor.

It was a marble floor, and everything was totally quiet. You could have heard a pin drop when I walked out, and somebody opened the big double doors, and I walked out. That's pretty much what I remember. I also remember that the DA asked me, did I want to seek the death penalty? And then in my youth and innocence, I said no. I don't think he took that much into account, but I remember it. That's all I can remember, Dr. Bethany. And these victims of the Waffle House shooting, this is a mother talking about her son

getting gunned down at a Waffle House. And now this. You're right. When you say now this, you would think because you've been through this, that even if the world lets you down and you lose a loved one, that the criminal justice system should uphold your rights, right? That you won't be victimized a second time. But I feel like this mother with this exquisite, inordinate pain that you can relate to has now been let down a second time. And the reason I believe this is that it is impossible to malinger or fake mental illness. It just is. When I have patients come into my office who claim to have this disorder or another, I can tell in 10 minutes if they really do have that disorder. It is not rocket science. There are not a thousand different psychiatric illnesses. There are a few. So I believe that whoever was examining

this Waffle House murderer is compromising their license in order to uphold their profession in some strange way. They have a license to practice, and yet this is a misdiagnosis, and it mystifies me, and I think in this case, the criminal justice system has let this mother down. Reinking was charged with the murders of four people at an Antioch, Tennessee, Waffle House. Then he arranges an exclusive phone interview with News Channel 5, and he was asked about his own mental health. And he says, quote, yeah, now I'm perfectly healthy. He says he plans to act as his own lawyer and, quote, that's the thing. I'm choosing to represent myself.

I don't know how that works, but I didn't like those attorneys. How can he fix his mouth if he's incompetent to say, I didn't like my lawyers, my first set of lawyers? I mean, I'm paying for those lawyers, by the way. The taxpayers are. Back to CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Pamela Furt joining us in Tennessee. Pamela, you have a very close connection to one of the victims in this case. Tell me about that and how they are responding to this latest development. Yes.

Her name is Sherita Henderson, and she is one of the victims. Yes, there are four people that died, but you have four other people who were shot and survived. And all of them are appalled at the idea that he may not even stand trial because he's claiming mental incompetency. Sherita Henderson, I work with in the same building in the organization that I work for, the media organization. She is a wonderful, delightful person. She has not been able to return to work because she's still recovering from three gunshot wounds that she sustained on that April day. And again, her parents, her family, her friends like me and others, quite frankly, are appalled that this could possibly happen. So yeah, there is a close personal connection to this particular case for me. And it's hard to report, quite frankly, these kinds of facts when I know there's a human being who may not get justice served because this guy is trying to manipulate the system and not have to stand trial. year old boy goes missing and then his body has just been discovered quote intentionally concealed listen to his mother jordan's smile brought me joy i would like to say thank you to each and everyone i wish you knew him personally He was such a happy and bright kid. Our family has been so devastated upon the update that's been broadcasted.

All we ask is that you be respectful as everything else unravels. The desperate search for seven-year-old Jordan Vong. We now discover that a 16-year-old girl has been detained in connection with his disappearance and death. It's overwhelming to me. A 16-year-old girl taken into custody by Denver police in connection with the death of a 7-year-old little boy. And you hear the mother at this vigil begging for the little boy's return. Joining me is Alan Duke reporting on the case. Alan, what do we know? Well, we know that Jordan Vong likes to play video games and wanted his 16-year-old aunt to play with him

one afternoon. So he went into her bedroom but it was a bad time. It was a time where this girl was upset. She just had an argument with her girlfriend, and she didn't want to be bothered by this seven-year-old nephew. That I can understand. The nephew wasn't giving up, though he jumped. Jordan jumped onto the bed of this aunt and refused to leave. The 16-year-old girl, I remember, Dr. Judith Joseph, New York psychiatrist, joining us, I remember my sister's about four years older than me. I would go to the door.

She'd be in her room, sitting on her bed. It looked like she was reading a book, very often with a jar of peanut butter. She's the one who got all the looks and the brains, by the way. So I go to the door and I'd open it and say, can you play? She wouldn't even say anything. She just look at me. All right. And then I would get the message somehow and leave she by the way is the sweetest and most loving person I know just fyi but at that age nobody wants to be bothered with a sibling however she didn't kill me and hide my body Dr. Judith Joseph. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have younger siblings or younger children with older children in homes all the time. And, you know, typical bullying can be playful.

Sometimes it can be really mean. However, this seems very extreme. And children who commit murder tend to have other psychological issues or psychiatric issues. They tend to be people who are just irritable, depressed, or there could be something even more serious, something like a psychotic break happening. And we don't know the details of this fight that she had. However, that age group seems are known to be impulsive. The first thing that comes to mind is the first thing that they do and how they react. And additionally, we don't know what the fight was about and we don't know how intense it was. And children who come from violent homes or see abuse tend to be the ones who perpetrate and who reenact the violence.

So I think we need to know more about this case. It's unfortunate that a child was harmed. Well, I know this, Dr. Judith Joseph. I don't know what more I need to know. You're saying we need to know more about the case. I know the little boy goes to the bedroom of the 16-year-old and wants to play. When she says no, he goes and starts jumping on the bed and then suddenly he disappears now i know that he was killed and his body was hidden as

everyone is out searching 9-1-1 uh distraught the dispatchers, helicopters, search parties, all sorts of open spaces, densely wooded areas. Everybody's searching for this boy the whole time. The 16-year-old girl knows where the body is. Take a listen to Denver Police Division Chief Joe Montoya. Throughout the course of the investigation, it was determined that a more thorough search of the residence was necessary, and therefore we attained a search warrant to re-enter the home. At approximately 8 20 p.m. Tuesday night, officers of the Denver Police Department went in and searched the home. Approximately 30 minutes into the search sadly we found Jordan deceased his body was

intentionally concealed last night we announced that the child's case had become a death investigation and after further investigation throughout the night evidence was discovered and this morning detectives took a 16 year old female into custody for investigation of first-degree murder since the child is a juvenile law forbids me from discussing any more about her her relationship to Jordan or their specifics about the case the coroner's office will determine the cause of death and the district attorney's office will make the final determination on charge. You're hearing law enforcement speaking

to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert. The body of the little seven-year-old boy was in the home the whole time while search crews and dogs and helicopters were all out searching for him. He was right there in the home the whole time. How did that happen? Yeah, I'm curious as to why the home wasn't thoroughly searched to begin with. I think that there was something that pointed them back to go into the home. As you notice, the police officer made mention of that. This is a horrible case.

It's, in my opinion, it's a reactionary event where this person was out of control at the moment. And they didn't have the ability to kind of squelch this anger that came up. And then they panicked and hid this child's body in a closet, just absolutely beyond the pale, Nancy. You think I care? I don't know what you're even saying, a reactionary event. That sounds like putting perfume on the pig, Morgan. You kill a seven-year-old little boy? What, sit on him and kill him?

And that's a reactionary event? Well, I'm going to have a reactionary event, Joe Scott. I want this girl behind bars for life. The U.S. Supreme Court recently has ruled that anyone under 18 cannot face the death penalty. But from my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, Alan Duke, she sat on him and held his nose and mouth till he died and quit struggling. Am I right? Yes.

And she pushed him off the bed. He hit his face on the floor, so he started crying. Natural reaction. But then she was so upset by that, she placed her hand over his mouth and plugged his nose as he was struggling for several minutes. This is according to the police affidavit. And that's when he died. She put his body under her bed. Then eventually she wrapped him in a comforter, put him in a portable closet. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, pathologist and medical examiner joining us. Dr. Dupree, how long does it take to suffocate someone?

Well, Nancy, that's a good question. It's really not that long. Here's the thing. When a person is being suffocated, they're not able to breathe. They're not getting oxygen to their lungs. They will pass out. If that pressure or that covering is released, they will wake up. But if that pressure continues, then that person will die.

And it can be a matter of seconds or minutes. Okay. Can you, do you suffocate in three seconds? No, you would, you would probably pass out in a few more. Okay. Five seconds, five seconds. Do you suffocate in five seconds? No, it's probably more like a minute or so. Okay. Okay. All right. A minute. Let me just remind everybody that under the law, and the time it takes you to pull a trigger, that is enough time to form premeditation under the law.

That is murder one. Sitting on this seven-year-old little boy who wanted to grow up to be a cowboy and depriving him of oxygen, suffocating him dead. That is premeditated murder. And I don't know what Joe Scott Morgan is saying about a reactionary event. My rear end of reactionary event. She's 16. She's going to escape the death penalty.

That's true. But life behind bars plus consecutive time for tampering with the body is the best justice we're going to get. You're listening to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. All we can do now is pray for this little boy and his mother, little boy Jordan Vong.