Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Was Tammy Daybell, cult-Mom hubby's dead wife, Lori Vallow's first victim?

Episode Date: March 20, 2020

Lori Vallow married Chad Daybell just weeks after their respective spouses died. Tammy Daybell, a healthy, 49-year-old runner, died mysteriously in her sleep and the family refused an autopsy. Now her body has been exhumed and examined. What will the new autopsy show?Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney  Bobby Chacon - Former Special Agent FBI, current star of FB Watch Series "Curse of Akakor"  Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Dr Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta, Ga Nate Eaton - Reporter, East Idaho News Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Available now only on Fox Nation. By now we have all heard the name cult mom Lori Vallow, the young mom who refuses to tell police whether her two children are dead or alive. But we don't hear much about Tammy Daybell. We don't hear much about her. But today, I want justice for Tammy Daybell. How does a young woman in her 40s who's training for a marathon suddenly

just die in her sleep with that soon-to-be newlywed groom lying right beside her? That's quite the coincidence, isn't it? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A 40-something-year-old young mom training for a marathon just poof, dies in her sleep. Okay, I'm curious, not concerned. But when her husband marries about a month later to a woman whose husband dies two weeks before, I'm starting to simmer, just simmering. Then when I find out there's four dead bodies and two missing children connected, I'm boiling over. I'm talking about Tammy Daybell.

Right. Cult mom, Lori Vallow's brand new hubby, dead ex-wife. What's happening? Why don't I have answers? Why wasn't there an autopsy? I need justice, not just for her, but for her family. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for joining us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. You think we're just going to stick our heads in the sand and our tail in the air? That's not happening. Take a listen right now to East Idaho News reporter Nate Eaton. Deputies responded. They took pictures.

They looked it over, contacted our detectives. Detectives had a few questions. They satisfied those. Didn't see anything that alarmed them. Was Chad Daybell acting interesting or suspicious or normal? To my knowledge, he was responding like anybody would whose spouse had just passed away. That's why the deputies didn't anticipate or didn't suspect anything suspicious. A few days later, Humphreys says his office was alerted by detectives in Arizona about the other deaths. Tammy's body was exhumed from the Spring

Hill, Utah Evergreen Cemetery and an autopsy was performed. We're still waiting for the lab results to come back. Do you know if Tammy Daybell had a big life insurance policy? There is some information along those lines that I'm not at liberty to speak about right now. But that is being investigated? Yes, it is. You're hearing our friend Nate Eaton with eastidahonews.com questioning the Fremont County Sheriff Lee Humphreys. I got a lot more questions. Joining me right now, an A-list panel. Number one, former prosecutor, former felony prosecutor, and I checked out his record. Now, defense attorney Daryl Cohen, joining me from the Atlanta jurisdiction. Bobby Chacon, former special agent with the FBI, current star of Facebook series Curse of Akakor.

Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist, MD, joining us today. Professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator. But right now, two reporter with the eastidahonews.com, Nate Eaton. Nate, hey, no offense, but you kind of rolled over on a couple of those questions. You didn't want to tangle with the county sheriff because when he says, eh, I had a few questions, a few questions. Why would a woman in her forties in perfect health that we know of, and don't you know, she had some underlying ailment. Uh, cult mom's family would be blasting it out there. Uh-uh, no, she's training for a marathon. Can you say that, Nate Eaton? And you have a few questions?

Die in her sleep? The last person to see her alive was her husband, Chad Daybell, who wrote 25 books that we know of about end of times with some crazy cult. And he just married Lori Vallow right after Tammy dies in her sleep with him lying right beside her. Come on, Nate, what's the sheriff saying now? Well, the sheriff's saying that the autopsy will tell the answers, hopefully. And hopefully that autopsy is back soon. You know, Tammy was the school librarian who everybody loved.

Everybody in town knew her. She worked with every student that came into that library. So she was a beloved member of the community. Everybody was shocked when she died. What's interesting, Nancy, though, is she died on... Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Everybody was shocked, but nobody did anything, did they? Nobody did a darn thing, did they?

Nate, you kill over and you're asleep. Don't worry. I'm on it. Okay. But nobody did anything when Tammy Daybell died. So just tell me what the sheriff says about the way Chad Daybell reacted when his wife just up and dies in her sleep. They said that he acted like a grieving husband would, any grieving husband would. He was upset. He was distraught. Here's the interesting thing. She died on a Saturday morning. She was in the ground by Tuesday afternoon. Normally, families take time to notify loved ones.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Nate, just curious. I've never asked you this before, but where are you from? I'm from all over, but I've lived in Idaho now for five years. Okay, that is not an acceptable answer because you're only from one place. Where would that be, Nate Eaton? I grew up near Salt Lake City.

Okay, because I don't know what the customary practice is where you grew up, but she dies on Saturday, Sunday, monday tuesday that's three days later okay i don't find that unusual so where you're from is that unusual well normally you would notify friends family members because they didn't bury her body here in idaho they had to make arrangements to have her body transported about six hours from where we're at. Okay, now wait a minute. That's something new. Tell me that again. So she dies Saturday morning. They don't bury her body in Idaho. What they do is they ship her body back to where she grew up down in the middle of Utah. So you have to make arrangements for that.

Well, how far away is that? I mean, they didn't teach me much geography in law school. How long of a drive is that? Oh, at least six hours. Six hours. So did you say they had to ship her body? Did I hear you say that? They have to ship her body? Yeah, take her body down to Springville, Utah, so six hours from here.

Then the next day, the family comes back to Idaho and holds a memorial service without her body or casket. So it was as if things were in fast motion. And a lot of people that attended that memorial service said it was weird that there wasn't even a casket. There wasn't even a body there. I hate to argue with you this much right off the get-go but nate i'm ready right when you have a memorial that very often means the person has been cremated or buried and at some later date there is a memorial you're remembering the person. A funeral. Now, Jackie, look this up on Google. Difference between memorial and funeral.

See, these are the fun things I do in my spare time when I'm not chasing down killers. Because you wouldn't expect, typically at a memorial, I wouldn't expect necessarily for a body to be there. But I am interested. So that's not unusual. So far, a memorial was three days later. Not concerning me at all. That, in my mind, is typical. But you did say something.

You said something about family and friends not knowing. Did family and friends not, did everybody not get the word that Tammy had passed away? There were a lot of people that found out after the fact, after the funeral, after the memorial. Whoa, Tammy Daybell died. She was here six days ago getting ready for this race, and now she's buried in the ground. Okay, so they didn't put it in the local paper that there was going to be a memorial service? There was an obituary, but again, everything happens so quickly.

Normally, you'd wait a few days, and if you're going to be where your path, where the where the death occurs, do that memorial service first with the casket, pay your respects, then take it down. Hold on, dear, because my crack legal researcher, Jackie, is holding up body not present for memorial.'s what a memorial is nate okay you know what i'm going to quit arguing with you about memorial versus funeral and get down to something serious um the fact that you're telling me she was buried so quickly that everybody didn't even realize or hadn't gotten notice of a funeral and and most important question, etiquette aside, how long after Tammy Daybell died did Chad

Daybell marry cult mom Lori Vallow? Within three weeks. Within three weeks they were married. I thought it was a month. Not that that made any difference to me. One week does not. Of course a lot can happen in seven days. But three weeks later he has remarried. Okay, and I believe it was two weeks after the death of her husband,

cult mom Lori Vallow remarries to Chad Daybill. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. I've seen so many pictures of cult mom Lori Vallow, and we call her cult mom because she was part of some doomsday cult. They say the earth's going to end July 20, 2020, I think is the date.

If you're not one of the select few, 140,000 worldwide since the beginning of time, Adam and Eve, you're just basically up the creek without a paddle. It's over for you. We see pictures of cult mom Lori Vallow all the time.

Why do I keep seeing pictures of her? Why don't I see pictures of Tammy Daybell? She's dead. And nobody even bothered to ask for an autopsy. The husband didn't care. What happened to my wife? Why is she dead? If, God forbid, my husband just dropped dead, I'd want to know why.

I love him. I want to know what happened to him. To try to make sense of it all. But let me understand this. Daryl Cohen, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, I'm sure you're going to argue at me till you're blue in the face that that means nothing. But it means something to me, and I guarantee you it'll mean something to a jury, that he never once said, what happened to her? Why is my wife gone? Daryl, I would hammer that with a ball-peen hammer in opening statements. You know I would, Daryl. I guess you're going to tell me it means nothing.

Yes, you would, Nancy. And I will tell you it meant nothing. It now means something because you put it together to whatever you've got. You've got too many dead bodies. You've got too many marriages. Right, there's too many dead bodies you've got too many right there's too many dead bodies so no it didn't mean anything at the time but now it does so she's gone no autopsy oh well you know it's it happens but then there's another dead body and there's a there's a quick

marriage it begins quickly to smell badly and the longer longer it goes, the more it smells. Smell badly. I don't know if that's correct, Daryl, with all of your acting abilities. Doesn't something smell bad and badly? It would be an adverb that defines a verb. So, okay, you know what? I'll deal with that later. I'll deal with you when we finish this.

But take a listen right now to the Fremont County Sheriff, Lee Humphreys. He's at it again with Nate Eaton. October 19th, we did respond to an unattended death at the Daybell home in the southern part of Fremont County, Salem Highway. And Tammy Daybell was deceased at that time. Officers, my officers, deputies responded, and as we do with most unattended deaths, they took pictures, they looked it over,

contacted our detectives. Detectives had a few questions. They satisfied those. Got the information they needed. Didn't see anything that alarmed them, contacted the coroner. The coroner responded and the body was transported to the funeral home. The coroner went there also to do a further examination and she determined that there was nothing out of ordinary natural causes. A few days later, we started getting information out of Arizona

that we maybe ought to take a closer look at this. Well, he sounds pretty calm. I'm just wondering how the family of Tammy Daybell is taking the whole thing. We also know that at the time, no autopsy was ordered to Bobby Chacon, former special agent with the FBI, current star of Facebook series Curse of Akakor. Bobby Chacon, as a special agent with the FBI, you've seen a lot of dead bodies. And it concerns me that nobody demanded an autopsy. Does that not bother you? It totally bothers me. And, you know, you think that those of us in law enforcement

have a natural curiosity, a natural suspicion, particularly when, you know, an otherwise healthy normal adult is dead and an unattended death. The normal protocol for us would be to request an autopsy because, you know, there's a mantra for us in the forensic world is that you have to get the evidence fast and first or else it can be compromised. And if you lose that opportunity, you lose it forever. And in this type of case, as an investigator, if I walked in

there and I saw an otherwise healthy adult in an unattended death situation, I would think one of the most important tools we're going to have is the toxicology report resulting from an autopsy. And now that the results of that are going to be done now that she's been exhumed. But I'm right now talking about why nobody ordered an autopsy. I mean, on the scene, I've got a major, major red flag. Guys, I want you to take a listen now to KSL TV News investigative reporter Brittany Glass. I have known Chad and Tammy for a long, long time, as many people in Springville have. Chad and his late wife grew up in town.

They both graduated from Springville High School. They went to high school together, and she worked for Springville City when they were engaged. She was responsible for a lot of the billing, so ambulance billing, cemetery billing. In fact, they both worked there. Chad worked for Springville City several times. Chad worked for the city off and on from 1985 until 2014. Digging graves, maintaining the cemetery, making sure the lawns are cut, pruning the trees, a little bit of everything. And apparently, it was a family tradition.

A 1992 Deseret News article tells the story of the Daybell brothers digging Springville graves to pay for their BYU educations. In 2001, Chad's work got more attention and another DNews story when he said his experience left him with many memorable moments from both the living and the dead. So let me understand this to you. Nate Aiden East Idaho news.com. Chad Daybell worked at the cemetery. Yeah, he worked at a cemetery. He was the sexton, so he not only was responsible for

making sure the bodies were buried, but that the grounds were taken care of. He knows about death. He knows about death. He knows about bodies. He knows how to take care of bodies when they are dead. And he knows the secrets of the cemetery, you could say. And so this may have started his fascination with the end of times, with death, with the second coming of Jesus Christ. Because as you mentioned, he went on and wrote two dozen books about this very topic. Guys, right now we are learning that police are investigating

a mystery letter, a suspicious email in connection to Lori Vallow's former husband, Charles Vallow's death. But right now we are focusing on Tammy Daybell, who lost her life in very unusual circumstances. We also know that in most jurisdictions, the next of kin decides whether there will be an autopsy. Take a listen to KTVB 7 News reporter Gretchen Parsons. When 49-year-old Tammy Daybell was found dead in her bed last October, the Fremont County Sheriff says family members asked the county coroner not to perform an autopsy. Because her death appeared to be natural at the time, the coroner didn't do one. Under Idaho law, if the death is considered to be from natural causes, the coroner can opt not to do an autopsy. The Fremont County coroner isn't speaking about this case publicly,

but Ada County Coroner Dottie Owen says that is unusual unless Tammy was under the care of a physician. What we would do is we would call and speak to the primary care physician, verify that history, review those medical records, and then at that point release that individual so that that primary care physician could sign that death certificate out. At that point, if family had refused an autopsy, we would sit down with this family, explain why we needed to do it, the importance of doing it, and then at that point, if we were still met with resistance, we would go ahead and just do it based on jurisdiction. And of course, the next of kin was Chad Daybell, who just three weeks later remarries to cult mom Lori Vallow.

Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into Don't Be a Victim. You can pre-order now. Go to CrimeOnline.com, pre-order now, and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about a victim that has gotten very little attention in the never-ending saga of cult mom Lori Vallow. Lori Vallow just in court with neon pink lipstick and blue toenail polish. Her hair artfully arranged for her appearance. And even then, with the courtroom packed of family and friends, not one word did she utter about the location of her children.

In the last hours, we learned that both her defense attorneys and the judge walk off the case. Why? Is it because upon questioning, she refused to tell her defense attorneys if her children were dead or alive? But I have my own questions about Tammy Daybell to Nate Eaton, EastIdahoNews.com. What was the race that Tammy Daybell was set to run before her death? It was a 5K here in town that she was working at running with a few of her friends and her family. You know, one of the things, Nancy, I think a lot of people forget about Tammy is not only was she a mother of five children, but she was a grandmother. She had grandchildren. And that young age, she was already a grandmom? Yeah, she was a grandmother. I believe it was two or three

grandchildren. So she was getting ready for the, you know, time in her life where she could mentor her grandchildren and spend time with them. I've got a question, another ready for the, you know, time in her life where she could mentor her grandchildren and spend time with them. I've got a question, another question for you, a personal question, Nate. How old are you? I am 38. Okay, well, you're knocking on 40. Are you ready to mentor your grandchildren? Is that what you're looking forward to?

Just curious. I'm not ready for that. Okay, let me tell you something, Nate. This woman had a full life. She's not just planning on sitting on the rocking chair on the front porch and going back and forth, okay? She's running a marathon. She's working in the town

library. She has lots of friends. You said that she was going to run the marathon with friends and family. This woman has it going on. Don't make her sound like an old grandmother. And now she wakes up. I mean, her husband wakes up right next to her and she's dead. To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author, Blood Beneath My Feet.

This whole picture is all wrong. Yeah, it is, Nancy. It's horrible. Why? You know, this falls solely within the jurisdiction and responsibility of the coroner. And I'm not surprised that this person isn't saying anything publicly about this because she flew the plane into the side of the mountain with this case. She let this body get away without doing a proper examination. And when I say proper examination, she may have gone, as the investigator had mentioned earlier, to the funeral home to do a further examination. She may have gone, as the investigator had mentioned earlier, to the funeral

home to do a further examination. But what does that even mean? The problem is, is that just by naturally certified, they didn't even take time to draw toxicology. And you can do that externally, urine, eye fluid. Can you please speak regular people talk externally? That means you don't have to cut the body open. Right. There doesn't have to be an invasive procedure in order to do this. So just the baseline here would be to draw toxicology, and you would have it forever and ever. Amen. But they chose not to do this.

I got to tell you, Nancy, 49 years old is very, very young to experience a sudden death. And when they're saying this term unattended death, what they mean is she didn't have a primary care physician that would sign the death certificate. They're not saying that she was all alone. She was in the room allegedly with her husband in bed with her when she passed on during the night. But the problem is this. Okay, okay, coroner, you know, you're going to let the body go. What are you going to list as the cause of death? What is there a substance? What are you going to say? Sudden death? That doesn't mean

anything. You've got this woman. Sudden death, you're right. What does that mean? Well, you know, when you're talking about things like, you know, you're saying she's training for a marathon or training for this race. Well, what type of physical ailments may she have had in order to cause her death? Well, there's nothing to hang your hat on. You don't have anything that will say, in fact, this caused her. Did she have a heart attack? Did she have a stroke? None of these things. And one more

salient point here. If this coroner, if the sheriff actually cared about their community, actually cared about their community, let's just say with all of these kids that are associated with this poor woman, what if there's some kind of genetic predisposition for death? This is a sudden death. Maybe there's something wrong. Maybe they could help these children by saying, look, you need to look at this in the future because your mom, your grandma died when she was only 49 years old. That's just a baseline, Nancy. This thing does, in fact, stink to high heaven. Well, other things are concerning me, Joe Scott Morgan. For instance, was she cold to the touch? How long had she been dead?

Was there, just for instance, let me just pull something out of the air, an almond smell about her, which, as you know, would indicate a particular poison. Was she blue? Were the in her eyes hemorrhaged to suggest asphyxiation. I mean, we have no idea because absent a stabbing or shooting death or a ligature strangulation, she could have been murdered for all I know. And it would not have been obvious to the naked eye. It would have required a forensic evaluation. Yes, it would have. And all of that is gone now. You know, we talk about all of these poisons, heavy metal poisons. We talk about, hey, Nancy, how many times have we covered cases on here involving eye drops, tetrahydroxyl poisoning,

maybe antifreeze. All of these things are completely gone now. The only thing they have left to do. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Regarding tetrahydrozoline, are you telling me that dissipates in the body after a period of time? Yeah, after a period of time, it certainly could. And you're not going to find anything. It would not help me at all if that were the motive. Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? I am pretty sure with this, Nancy. Yes, absolutely. And I don't think that they're going to find anything in the tissues. Now, she's already been buried for a protracted period of time. She did wear glasses, and I'm guessing also had, just throwing it out there, I imagine she also had contact lenses. Go ahead.

Yeah. And when you mentioned, say, for instance, petechiae, well, what evidence is there that there were no petechiae? Is the coroner certified to do this? How much effort would it take? I've got to ask you a very disturbing question. When a body is prepared for burial and it's at a funeral home, do they remove the eyes? If the eyes have been donated yes that can that can happen okay so there's no way to tell that now because she was i think uh nate eaton wasn't she buried formally and through a funeral home where various fluids would have been put through her body her internal organs including

her eyes would have been removed i'm not sure if her eyes were removed. We know that she was embalmed and that they did not dig her back out of the ground. They did not exhume her body for two months. Guys, let me pause very quickly and thank our partner making today's program possible. It's the farmer's dog. My little dog, my pound puppy, Fat Boy's, is too important for me to feed him some highly processed burnt brown bits. And that is why we switched to the farmer's dog. Real food, cooked fresh, delivered right to our

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Farmer's Dog, thank you for being our partner. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the sudden and unexpected death of Tammy Daybell and the sudden and unexpected marriage of her husband three weeks later to cult mom Lori Vallow. Her husband died two weeks before that. There's so many dead bodies. I actually had to make a flow chart to Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist joining us or now psychiatrist joining us from the Atlanta jurisdiction. Dr. Arnold, what would you expect? Would you expect a spouse who is lying in bed next to the wife when she dies in the middle of the night to want to know the cause of death? I mean, I would want to know how long had she been dead?

Did she die right after they went to bed? Was her body cold to the touch? Was she actually in the bed when she was found dead or somewhere else in the home, like the bathroom? There's so many questions, but what would you expect, Dr. Angela? I completely agree with you, Nancy. I can't even imagine that someone would die next to you, like you said, about your own husband. And you wouldn't want to know exactly what happened. Exactly. Because it all just stinks to me. And you know what else I'm wondering? Why did they drive six hours away to bury her? You know what? I almost asked Nate Eaton that question. But apparently, Nate Eaton, let's address that because a lot of people are going

to want to know that. Why did they drive, or as you said, ship the body? That's not what happened, Nate Eaton. I'm sure they put it in the back. The other day, Nate, actually it was yesterday, my husband and I were with the twins and a hearse drove by. I said, I don't like seeing hearses drive by. And my husband said, he has a very dry sense of humor. I like them when I'm not in it.

So they drove her six hours away. But isn't it true the whole family had lived there and Chad Daybell had then uprooted and moved? Is that why she was buried six hours away? Yeah, you're right. Excuse me. Yeah, you're right excuse me yeah you're right they moved her back to utah they took her body back to utah to the very cemetery that chad used to care for so this is where all of the family was from the whole family was from there okay um i want to skip just one moment speak you know what though actually let's hear it. Take a listen to Nate describing a very

odd occurrence that happened just before Tammy died. Ten days before Tammy died, she reported pulling up in the driveway of her house and that a masked man came up behind her and started firing an empty paintball gun at her. She asked what the guy was doing and he didn't respond. She then said that she yelled for help and the man took off. The sheriff's office did send somebody out to the home to investigate. She explained what had happened. There wasn't anything there that at the time we could do and everybody kind of brushed or summed it up as a prank by somebody's part. But that was one of the things that was a red flag. Do you think it was tied to her death? We would like to know.

Have you been able to interview Chad about the death of his wife? No. On his accord, he doesn't want to talk. Right. But you obviously would like to talk to him about that. We have been contacted by his attorney, and that was a couple of weeks ago. And his attorney was letting us know that any communications would be through him. Wait a minute.

I knew about the paintball incident, Nate Eaton, but I didn't know Chad Daybell wouldn't speak to cops about Tammy's death. Nope, he hasn't. He's hired an attorney. He hasn't spoken to them about any of this, about anything. He's hired an attorney and he's lawyered us. Why, Daryl Cohen? Why? Why not tell the cops? I woke up at seven o'clock in the morning and my wife was cold to the touch. Or I was in the kitchen. I called her name to come get some coffee. No response. I found X. Why? Why not tell the cops what happened?

That was then, this is now. There's no reason to talk to them. Is that an answer? Okay, all right. Other than they asked, I mean, if a cop asked me a question. Now there's a reason, but now there are more dead bodies piling up. And now that the reason is there, he can't talk to the cops because all he can do is get involved with D-R-O-U-B-L-E, which means prosecuted. And he doesn't want that man. You know what? I'm going to use that the next time my husband or just basically anybody asks me a question. No matter what the question is, I'll say that was then.

This is now. Which will send them away scratching their heads because it's a non sequitur. It doesn't follow. It doesn't make sense. But you got something with bullseye target, and that is an investigation. Bobby Chacon, former FBI special agent, star of Facebook series Curse of Agakor. Bobby, why won't he speak to cops? Yeah, that's a big question, right?

And there's a big difference between lawyering up. You can lawyer up and still come in for an interview with the cops. I've never minded interviewing somebody with their lawyer present. I mean, they have that right. But when he lawyered up, his lawyer called the police there, it's my understanding, and said he is not going to talk. All communication should come through me. So, you know, he hasn't even – he lawyered up and then he refused to talk. That's an extra step that he took.

The police are perfectly willing to interview him in the presence of his lawyer, but he still won't even do that. Even with the protections that he has in place, he won't talk to the police. You know, I actually like it when the lawyer's there because I enjoy watching the glances between the person and their lawyer. Hey, I've got to ask you another question, Bobby Chacon. Did you know, Bobby, that in this case, the nephew-in-law of cult mom Lori Vallow, somebody took a shot at him while driving her dead husband's car? Brandon Bredreau, at first he thought

also that it was a paintball gun. Turned out it was a real gun. My question to you, very narrow question, Bobby Chacon. When you have a silencer on a gun, what does it sound like when the gun is fired?

It really just sounds like a puff of air. Oh, you mean like a paintball? Yes. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. She thought the guy fired at her with a paintball gun. How do I know it wasn't a real gun? And he just missed.

Just like what happened. It's too much of a coincidence. There is no coincidence in criminal law. I mean, Dr. Angela Arnold, I know you're an MD. I'm just a JD. But get real with me for a moment, Dr. Angela. How likely is it? And this close-knit family, you've got, let's see, the third husband, Joseph Ryan, he died of a sudden unexpected heart attack. And Lori Vallow had him cremated pronto. Then you've got her husband, Charles Vallow, dead, shot by her brother, Alex.

Alex is dead, and Tammy Daybell is dead, and two missing children. How likely, just statistically in your mind, is it that two members of this group were shot at by a paintball and one turned out to be a real gun? I think they were probably both real guns, don't you? Yes, I do. I do think Tammy Daybell was shot at with a real gun. I mean, Nancy, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Isn't that right? You know, I've never heard a psychiatrist actually admit that. And I really respect you for that. They exhumed Tammy's body and we're all just, what, sitting on our thumbs waiting for them to

say something. It's been a couple of months now. Quick answer, Joe Scott Morgan, before I run out of time. How long does an exhumation autopsy take, for Pete's sake? I know not two months. It normally doesn't, but they're having to go back and backtrack. Now this is on the shoulders of Utah State Medical Examiner. They screwed up big time. Where it should have been on the shoulders of the local coroner. Hey, what about toxicology panels?

Would that take longer than two months since they're having to work their way through embalming fluid? What are you going to examine toxicologically? It's all gone. All you have left are the tissues that have now been embalmed. That's what they're faced with. Okay, Nate Eaton, give me some good news about Tammy Daybell. When are we going to get the results back? Well, the sheriff back in January said he expected it would be within one to two weeks. Obviously, we're now two months

out from that. And I spoke with him yesterday morning. He says he's still waiting along with the rest of us. Really? Is that what he said? Let me tell you something, Sheriff. You're elected or not. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend.