Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - What REALLY Happened in Aruba! CrimeCon 2022

Episode Date: May 10, 2022

Recorded live in front of a studio audience at CrimeCon 2022 in Las Vegas, listen as Nancy Grace and her panel of experts recount what happened during their visit to Aruba with Natalee Holloway's mom, Beth. 18-year-old Natalee Holloway mysteriously vanished without a trace during a 2005 high school graduation trip.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Susan Constantine - MPsy, Deception and Body Language Expert; Author: "The Complete Idiot’s Guide to Reading Body Language" SusanConstantine.com  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills)  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Kelly Skehen - Fox Nation Senior Producer See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Con 2022, Vegas. For those of you that couldn't be with us, we chose a topic near and dear to our hearts. A topic that to this very day is a warning from parents all over the country. Natalie Holloway goes missing on a school trip. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

Right now, let's go straight to CrimeCon and our all-star panel on what really happened on our investigation in Aruba. And what an awesome panel of guests we have today. Wait, no. You are Cheryl McCollum with me, founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. We go all the way back to when I was a prosecutor and Ms. Thing showed up. She claims at 3 a.m. on a crime scene. I don't know about that. You know the beautiful and brilliant dr bethany marshall who was with me wasn't our first hln program where we had a a young girl stacy who was behind bars for murder and as we

uncovered her stepfather or father had been molesting her. I remember, didn't he call his semen tiger juice or something like that? Yeah, right. And it sticks with you. You just never get that out of your head. And we, she ultimately was released by the way. And of course, right here, Kelly Skehan, who's my executive producer on Fox Nation. And I'm so grateful to have Kelly and to have Fox Nation. And here on the end, who knows who this lady is? It's Susan Constantine. Guys, you probably only see her on television.

Don't move. I mean it. Because this woman analyzes nonverbal cues. So don't move. I mean it. Because this woman analyzes nonverbal cues. So don't move. When I'm on with her and they put us in the tube, I say, go. She's brilliant and has done so many high-profile cases. Now, wait, you have a book, right? The Complete Idiot's Guide to Reading Body Language. Brilliant.

And she's online. I'm so happy y'all are here. And thank you for being at CrimeCon and joining us. And remember, come up with questions. Please, no difficult legal questions. Don't do that to me, okay? Because we're coming to you for questions during this okay what we're talking about today is something that several of us lived through we were doing a special for fox nation on

spring break dangers for spring breakers dangers for spring breakers because over and over and over every year this one was killed this one was raped this one went missing and I'm thinking there's got to be a way for us to at least curtail what happens to spring breakers and what class trip sticks out in my memory, American Beauty, straight-A student, Natalie Holloway. So Beth, her bestie, Ginger, a makeup person, Medea, Cheryl, myself, and Kelly, and a crew, go to Aruba to retrace the steps and see what we can find out. And I've got to tell you I found out a lot I don't want to be harsh but you know you pull up to Aruba you get off that cruise ship and everything looks beautiful right right behind that

first thing you see are crack houses houses of prostitution, where people sit out and shoot drugs. Very high crime. And we walked, didn't we, Kelly? Didn't we, Cheryl, walk from one tip of the island to the next?

Absolutely. And I'm like, it's not that big. Why couldn't they find Natalie? And the things we learned. But I'm going to let them kick it off because you guys hear me all the time. And remember, get your questions ready. Just raise your hand in the middle.

I'll come out to you. First of all, Cheryl, let's hear your story. Nancy, I think you know and I think this audience knows I would follow Nancy Grace anywhere. No question about it. Yes, honey. She has been my prosecutor back in the day, and we did meet on an active crime scene. That's where we met.

It was 2.45 in the morning, and this little sports car comes flying up to a screeching halt. This little bitty woman pops out. What do y'all got? What do you need? What do we have? And I'm like, what is that? And Jim Burge from the GBI says,

that's Nancy Grace. You don't know Nancy? And I'm like, I know two things in this moment. I'm going nowhere, and we're going to be friends. So back in the day, we did. We worked in the trenches. So when she called me and said, well, you go to Aruba with me, and let's do some security points for parents that are sending kids to Aruba

or anywhere on spring break, I didn't hesitate. But, y'all, I was not ready. She did hesitate. That is total BS. She said, I don't have a passport. I'm like, well, get one. Jackie. Jackie is the EP on Crime Stories.

Didn't that happen? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a story. I think if I remember correctly, Cheryl needed to get a passport within 24 hours and flew down to Houston to be able to go to Aruba. But I will say this was an incredibly surreal trip. I'm not sure how many people here watched the Fox Nation documentary, but as Nancy said, we went down there to film a warning piece for Spring Breakers,

and I don't think we were expecting what we found down there at all. That whole thing about saying, yes, I left immediately. We had to jump through hoops to get that one a passport. Anyway, that said, then there was the whole COVID thing. The whole COVID thing. We had to be tested and retested and tested within 12 hours and get to the airport.

I said, Cheryl, get in line. It's time for your COVID test. Bend over. And I said, Nancy, you got it. I tell you, whatever she tells me to do, we're doing. But here's the thing that I think shocked me the most. I was prepared for the beautiful water and the flowers and the touristy type buildings and things to do. I was not prepared for the poverty and the desert and the cactus.

I was really shocked at just how desolate parts of it were. Okay, I want to remind you all something. Do you remember in Natalie Holloway, one point of interest where her body might have been was the lighthouse at the end of the island? Speaking about poverty. Now, I know there are things worse than this but this sticks in my mind and I can't get wait for it this one little dog out of my mind okay because

we went to the end of the island to look at the lighthouse to see is that even possible and there was a pack of dog a lot of dogs there that were starving. Now, in America, if there were dogs at, for instance, a national monument that were starving, you know, everybody would be trying to save them and rescue the dogs. They were out there. Their ribs were showing. One of them had a hurt leg, and he was trying to run along with the others. And I got out of the car, and I said, do we have anything to give them to eat? Because all their ribs were painfully sticking out.

And I thought, what kind of place is this? That this is where people go, tourists. And that's happening. And I still think about it because when I got out, it was so windswept and desolate. Remember, Kelly, I tried to do a stand-up saying, here we are at the lighthouse, where some people thought Natalie's body was. The wind was so fierce, we couldn't even stand up and talk. No, I would say it was so windy we couldn't film a lot of stuff. But the Aruba you see in the tourist videos is definitely a trap. That is not the Aruba that we experienced at all.

We received a very less than warm welcome. Who wants to tell about what Beth told us? She flies down immediately. Didn't she get somebody to let her borrow a jet or something? She was out of her mind. And she knew somebody that knew somebody that knew somebody that they gave her a ride down there. She could not get police to listen to her. Remember that story she told about waiting?

They went, go wait. And she waited for like seven hours in the police station. Oh, you tell it. Y'all, she was so desperate for information. She could not get anyone to respond to her. She sat alone in a police department, not speaking the language. They all spoke English. That's one of the four languages they know. They would not speak in the language. They all spoke English. That's one of the four languages they know.

They would not speak to her. And she was waiting. She was gutted because she knew when Natalie did not get on that plane that something horrible had happened to her. And when she wanted help, the guy said he needed to finish his frosted flakes. He came out of his office. He had been in his office this whole time while she's sitting there for like five hours. And she said he came out and he was like rubbing his stomach.

And he went, I had to go to the barbershop. And I was back. I was just eating lunch. I'm like, my daughter is missing and you're eating wings, hiding in your office from me. I mean, I would have ripped his throat out with my teeth right there. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Keeping that mother sitting there like that. I mean, do any of you have children?

You know I have the twins. And I said, David, my husband, I love you. But nothing can compare to the twins. When you have children, all bets are off. And he sat there and ate his wings while she was waiting to find out about her daughter, and they still didn't help her, right? No, I believe it was frosted flakes, too. It was.

He was rubbing his fat belly and said he had to finish his frosted flakes before he could, quote, deal with her. She's in the worst mood of her entire life. Now, hold on. We happen to have two brilliant ladies that are going to weigh in on that. Get it, Bethany? Well, I was thinking about this story this morning. I go back with Nancy Grace to HLN days where she had the Nancy Grace show,

and I remember covering this story from the very beginning and you have Beth who sends her beloved daughter on her graduation trip and imagine the hopes and dreams when you send your girl away on a graduation trip and you entrust the people that are taking her there you entrust the place she's going so many you do know the twins are going on a class trip on Monday, right? I know this one is going to follow them. Because I happen to remember when the twins were born, she was spying on her own nanny. Didn't she go around the side of the house? I made no secret that I spied on every babysitter and nanny and they knew it.

I broke my foot spying one time. That's right. I was just going to tell the story. Broke my foot. She left the house, went around the side, looked in the window to make sure nothing bad was happening with the nanny. I think you were standing on something, fell off, broke her foot. Not exactly like that, but generally speaking, that's what happened.

So here's the mom, and this guy's back there having his frosted flakes. Not exactly like that, but generally speaking, that's what happened. So here's the mom, and this guy's back there having his frosted flakes. But what I remember the most about this story is a whole community conspiring to prey on young women. I think that's what's underlying the lackadaisical attitude of the constable is that Joran Vandersloot's father was a judge there. And everybody knew that Joran, the Calpo brothers, DJ Diablo, all these young men were just waiting for these young women to come in, go to what, Charlie...

Carlos and Charlie's. Carlos and Charlie's. It was their first time. Hey time hey guys what is that funny sound i hear it anyway okay sorry these young women would go to carlos and charlie's it was their first time experimenting being away from their parents right so maybe their brains weren't fully developed. Maybe they were a little disinhibited. Maybe they'd never had alcohol before.

And these young men, like a pack of dogs, were waiting for them. And you can't tell me that that whole community didn't know this. You can't tell me that this wasn't the culture of Aruba. Just like what you found when you visited there for this special. And that's why I think Beth had such problems investigating this on her own and problems that you had is that this whole community is in on it. They're colluding. They're conspiring.

They know what's going on. They want the tourists. They don't want those cruise ships to stop. They don't want the cruise ships to stop. They don't want the class trips to stop. Susan Constantine is a world-renowned nonverbal specialist. You also look at what people say, too, and the way they say it. But I want to get your take on this chief of police coming out and saying, I had to have my food before I could deal with you.

Well, someone like that is detached, right? They don't realize the severity of the situation, and they didn't rank it up as being a high-profile case. At this point, it was just a bothersome. This is another kid that probably got drunk on a trip, and they didn't really care. But that's not what this case was all about. This wasn't about predatorial people that are out there looking at children, vulnerable young girls, especially blonde haired, blue eyed girls. And that was a predator that was out there seeking to whom he was going to find and take back. But, yeah, that police officer was... Total disregard, and he thought he could get away with it, and he did get away with it,

coming out and going, oh, yeah, I had to eat before I deal with you. Really? And what we learned, Cheryl, remember, was that this was what Jorn Vandersloot would do. I didn't know this, that he did this week after week after week when new groups would come in. He would find young ladies, didn't matter,

color, race, age, somebody for him to prey on, but it had to be a woman. And I found out that night that his father the judge Paulus Vandersloot was at the casino at the table with your Vandersloot and Natalie it's in the video but when asked he went I don't know anything about it he was just there with her but wait what about that little moment when we all were threatened with arrest, Cheryl? Y'all. Good times. Okay. I had a severely twisted ankle at the time.

Oh, blah, blah. So I could hardly move. And that's relevant. She was fine. Because I'm taking pictures. You go in front, Nancy. My ankle's hurting. Of the Holiday Inn.

Well, I noticed Kelly and Nancy, all of a sudden this security guard starts harassing them a little bit. Well, I'm over to the side, and I'm like, what in the world? The security guard will not let them in the Holiday Inn. So Beth and Nancy and Kelly are standing there. Again, I'm in the front yard taking a picture from a distance. With her hurt ankle. So I decide, hmm, all of a sudden a police car drives up 3D. Well, I'm in law enforcement. I know what that means. So I start walking back toward the car. Thanks, Cheryl. Because I know I'm the slowest one. So if there's something about to go down, they can catch me. I think I heard her say, I don't know them.

And Nancy is pleading their case. I was not pleading anything. Why can we not go in to the holiday inn? And they said, we won't allow anybody in that's not a guest here. And Nancy said, I got a credit card. I will rent a room right now. They still wouldn't let her in. So I start walking back toward the cars because I'm like, I'm out of here, y'all. And all of a sudden, Nancy and them start walking back toward the cars. They pass me. Nancy doesn't even miss a clip going past me. And then the police are now behind me, and I hear them say, stop. Stop right now, ma'am. Well, I stopped.

Nancy, don't stop, y'all. And I thought, Lord, I'm going to go to jail in Aruba alone. Well, they started. You're not going to do what they told me to do. So I took a picture, a selfie of me and two of the police officers. Nancy Grace getting arrested. That's what she was trying to get a picture of me and two of the police Nancy Grace getting arrested that's what she was trying to get a picture of then he says ma'am you're gonna go to jail if you take a picture of

me and I was like do tell well about that time they're hollering at Nancy and them Nancy and Beth still won't stop all of a sudden I'm thinking okay I may go to jail alone. Nancy stops. Y'all, she turns on her heels. She comes walking straight back to that policeman. And then I thought, oh Lord, I know I'm going to jail now. And I thought, I love this woman and I will be her, you know what, in Georgia, but I ain't going to be her, you know know what in prison in Aruba. We're going to have to work something out. I mean, I love her, but you know, that's too much because I did find out there's no air conditioning in the jails in Aruba and that's just too much. Nancy Grace walks right back to that man and she says, are you telling me that we cannot film on the public grass way here?

We're not on their property. And they went, yes, you were. You were filming on that property. And that's when Kelly jumped in. Kelly's recording the whole time. My mic is hot the whole time. Yeah, Kelly was in the background. Hey, this will be great.

Arrest her. No, no, no, no, no. But do it slowly so I can get a good picture. No, so they were falsely accusing us of filming. And there's a reason that only I... Why do journalists always talk about false accusations? It was false. So I whipped out my phone and started recording it

because it was just unbelievable that we were being falsely accused of filming when we had no crew in sight. There's a reason it's not on video. And we were doing absolutely nothing illegal. But I do want to add something to the Carlos and Charlie's point for a second, because Natalie's dad found out that you could pay a bartender there $20 to spike someone's drink. And that is what you're on Vander Sloot did over and over and over again. And what we learned when we were down there is that that is still happening to this day, not only to tourists,

but to local Arubans. And absolutely nothing has been done to stop that and that is why they did not want us right where we were we were at the holiday inn and beside it was the casino at that time and that's where spiking was going on also at Carlos and Charlie's, and it's still happening today. So the last thing they want is Kelly, myself, Cheryl, busting up in there and messing up their deal. They don't want the truth coming out. And let me tell y'all something. I have seen Nancy in a courtroom, and, y'all, there ain't nobody better.

She will advocate for you. She will advocate for you. She will fight for you. But let me tell you something right now, quick, in a hurry. You ain't seen nothing until you've seen that woman on foreign soil advocating for Bev Holloway. She was flat ready to go to jail. It was awesome I think the only reason that we were not booked is because that would have been

even a worse PR nightmare for them with me screaming to the top of my lungs things like you killed Natalie stuff like that but wait did they offer you a cocktail? But I got to tell you something, Aruba is nothing like what I thought it would be.

And in that moment when they were threatening to arrest us, I didn't even think about the jail or the air condition. All I was thinking about was you are the same cops that let Natalie Holloway's body be hidden forever because you did nothing when you could have helped her mother. You did nothing and you're doing it again. Instead of helping us find the truth, you're threatening to put us in jail. And that's all I could think when I looked at them and they were huge. Remember them? They looked like they spent half a day at work and half a day in the gym. I think they were pumped up on steroids. They had to be. They were so big and ripped in their black slot outfits, so predictable. And there were we. And we also had a local with us from Aruba.

Her mom worked at the Holiday Inn, and they threatened her. They said, you will be the first one to go down for this group. When we were doing nothing wrong, and she relies on them giving her permission to film for her own company. So they were threatening the local who was helping, Nancy Grace. And even before we got down there, Beth said, Kelly, we have 7 to 12 minutes at every single location before the police arrive. So they are all over her, but they were not all over solving Natalie's case. And from that point on, we would walk up to a restaurant or a bar where we thought Natalie had been.

They would come to the door and lock it. I could see them doing it through the glass and put closed. I'm like, what? Like, we're going to come in there and shoot the place up? It was insane. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm not hearing from Bethany Marshall, which is really odd. And Susan Constantine, very odd. I have a thought bubble forming above my head.

Where are the women in this community? All these men are predators. And if they're not directly a predator themselves, they're aiding and abetting a predator. They're overlooking predatory behaviors. It's like a culture of predation. Just like you have child molesters forming communities online where they all share pictures and they all know where to find children and where one will kidnap a child then they'll send a picture to another one you have a same sort of community on the island of Aruba where they're all conspiring together

in some way either actively participating or overlooking so question is, where are the women? Where was Joran Vandersloot's mother? The constable's mother? The wives? The sisters? Oh, we went to Joran Vandersloot's home, and the mother still lives right there, and they've got fences around it. Remember we went to find? Okay. Yep. What about it, Susan? I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question. It wasn't a question. Just wanted to five. Okay. Yep. What about it, Susan? I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question. It wasn't a question.

Just wanted to hear your thoughts. Well, one of the things that I wanted to kind of hitchhike off from was what you were talking about, the predatorial type of people. The one thing I want you to all be aware of is that they already know what they're looking for when they walk in the door. And so they place themselves as a spotter. So they spot around. They go back several times. The fact that you see them over and over again should give you a clue. And also they have a very fixated response. They look at someone and they're very fixated. It's like a dog that's looking at someone ready to go for a prey because they're thinking and contemplating on what they're doing. So you need to watch out for that nonverbal behavior

because predatorial nature is prevalent. There's nowhere that it's safe. It could be your brother, a brother's friend. It could be a doctor. It could be a coach. It could be a priest. It could be anybody. They're out there, and they're looking for vulnerable women. And you would think a judge would go along with his son's activity. Will you say something?

Well, you know, when this story first broke, and I remember being on so many shows with you, Nancy, there was an article in the New York Times called, Can a Nine-Year-Old Be a Sociopath? And that's when we as a community first began to think about how young sociopathy develops. And we think of Joran van der Sloot was really the poster child for sociopathy. Aggressive, predatory, lack of a conscience. I mean, his whole life was organized around preying on young women. And we know with organized crime, usually it takes only one sociopath to recruit others who similarly have a lack of conscience.

You know what you're making me think of? And I said, and I take no joy in having been right that one time. I said, he's going to do this again. And then, correct me if I'm wrong, guys, five years to the day, the day. Stephanie Flores. Stephanie Tosiana Flores. He met her in a casino. Talked her up.

They went back to his room. And she opened up her iPad or her phone and was Googling him. And she asked him about Natalie Holloway. He bludgeoned her dead. Then he went out and got a croissant and coffee, came back in with her dead body right there and ate breakfast. You know, there was blood all over that hotel room. He didn't just kill her. He bludgeoned her out in outrage that she knew who he was, that she was going to ID him, and probably not so much

that he was afraid of exposure or getting caught, but that he didn't want to be prevented from going right back out into the casino and preying on other women. Doing the same thing. Doing the same thing. Now, wait a minute. Where were all those hands we were talking about with questions? I'll take anything. Of course, I'll throw it to them, but...

Stand up! See that camera? Don't you want to be on Fox Nation? Because I do. Okay. So how does this continue when we know what's happening and we just... is there anything we can do? You know what? What was your name? Lynette from Salt Lake. You know, that's why we went to find out what, if anything, we could do. I was really not mentally and emotionally prepared to find out the scale on which it was happening still to this day after Natalie was killed. And you want to tell me, Cheryl McCollum, that he ripped apart Stephanie tossing on a floor desk, but he didn't touch Natalie? Right. This is also a man that has confessed how

many times. And he's also told 32 different versions of what happened to her that night. Over a hundred people saw her get in his car because the bar had closed. They were all outside. All of her classmates saw it. He has continued to con and harass Beth. He's offered to tell her thanks for money. He is the epitome of a sociopath. But yet no conviction in Natalie's murder. Her, Lynette from Salt Lake City's question was, what can we do? Well, we went to try to do something and find something. But sadly, I don't think we made a dent in it.

But what you can do is school your children and follow the rules yourself. You know what I did before I came here? I started to spank myself. I got to the airport and the flight was delayed. So I sat in a dark parking lot answering emails and texts for like 30, 40 minutes. I'm like, whoa, what am I doing? This is crazy. So I get out and go in. But even having literally written a

book about how to stay safe, we still, you know, our defenses slip because you don't expect everybody to be a killer or a rapist. And that is when they strike, when you're on your senior trip. Well, and Nancy, here's what Beth said, what we can do to protect ourselves. First of all, don't go to Aruba. Don't give them your tourism dollars. Second of all, if you're sending your child overseas, do you have a passport in case something goes wrong? Can you get to them? Do you have enough money on your credit card to book a last-minute flight? Do you have a high enough limit on your credit card to stay at a hotel for months on end?

All of that needs to be put in place before your children goes off. God forbid something goes wrong. Another thing, for instance, Jorn Vandersloot was drugging women at the bar in their drinks. We know that. And he routinely did it and was still doing it after Natalie was murdered. Don't leave your drink. Because a lot of people go, well, why did she leave with three guys she didn't know? She was so out of her mind.

I think part of his story was true, that they went to the beach. He said they didn't have sex. But then he could describe her underwear. And she may have started vomiting and choking up from the roofie he gave her. That may be true. But when people blame her for leaving, I hate that because they're shaming the victim. But don't let anybody leave on their own. And don't you leave on your own.

And watch your drink. She had no idea what had happened. I think also in terms of what can you do, we have to be aware as a society that there are certain vulnerable populations, and those populations are vulnerable at certain times. Children who are getting on and off school buses, our seniors in society who are left alone with caregivers where we may not be overlooking what's happening, young women on senior trips whose supervisors leave them unattended.

These are all vulnerable populations, so they should be watched at all times because young people have a right to go and experiment with being away from their parents. But they should experiment in a safe environment, so we have to think about safer environments for them. I believe somebody has their hand up out in the crowd. Come on up. What's the question? I was just wondering, the friends she was with, why didn't they stay with her? I don't know. I never got the answer to that. Do you know, Kel? I don't. Well, yes. So the cabs in Aruba don't look like regular cabs.

They look like cars. So her friends thought she was getting into a cab. They didn't think she was getting into a stranger's car. And I know her friends struggle still to this day with what happened and the fact that they weren't able to get her to stay with them. I know they've struggled severely with what happened. I do know that her friends went in and out of the hotel room multiple times that night because Natalie's key card showed multiple entrances and exits from the hotel room between two and four in the morning. So if she switched keys with them, that does imply that

they were up, that they were sober, that they were aware of what's going on, and that they were searching for her. Question? My name's Kathy. Is there any evidence that he perpetrated before Natalie? Okay, this is what I know. I've never had a defendant or suspect go from 60 to 120 MPH like that. We do know for sure that he would routinely drug women, rape them when they were unconscious, and take their money because he would wait for the next cruise ship or the next school trip to come in. So we know Natalie was not his first victim. Whether he killed anybody before, I don't know. But two dead bodies is enough for me. And just hold this thought. He is in a prison in Lima, near Lima,

where he can have drugs, alcohol, and conjugal visits. He has gotten married, got a woman pregnant, and has a child. So he's like king of the penitentiary. Sex offenders offend on average for 16 years before they come to the attention of law enforcement. So that tells you a little bit about what Jordan VanderSloot might have been up to. Sorry, hi, I'm Katie from Yuba City, California. I wanted to know if any of the bartenders or the clubs that were surrounding did anybody get in any kind of trouble or you know anyone who helped him you said that they were getting paid 20 to spike a drink nobody got in trouble and the two brothers deepak and who was the other brother cheryl satish. Satish were questioned, arrested, thank you, and let go.

But Nancy, I think it's imperative that people understand this entire island is protecting their tourism. The entire place, the hotels, the restaurants, the cabs, everybody. We did track down a former bartender at Carlos and Charlie's, and I was astounded to learn he wouldn't talk because he signed a nondisclosure agreement. What restaurant or bar do you work at where you need to sign an NDA when you leave? That tells me everything I need to know about what was going on there. Hi, I'm Jill, and I just wanted to know what your personal theory is on what may have happened to her.

You're talking about Natalie. Natalie went with her friends to go out and have fun that night. She was at a bar. Jorn Vandersloot was at the bar. She was just, it's like a wolf waiting for the sheep to go by. It's like a hyena out on the Serengeti hiding at the water place waiting for the gazelle. And then all they have to do is catch one gazelle,

the weak link. I think that he spotted Natalie. He started talking her up, and she talked back. It was nice. Then he slipped her the drug, and it was all over. I think he led her to the car. They went away. I think that he raped her because she was unconscious.

I don't know if the Calpo brothers joined in, and I think that he killed her. Where do you think her remains are? Oh gosh I think they're either buried somewhere on that island if your the father Paulus had anything to do with it or there's a very strong possibility they went out in the water and dropped her remains out there and if you get past a certain point you're past for instance a reef and it goes straight out to the ocean there's no harbor past a certain point they had a friend who was a dj was a dj the tattoo party boat yes the tattoo party boat that actually presented to law enforcement telling multiple

lies about where he had been that night which tells me that he could have been the one who captained a boat that took her out and dumped her in the waters. But you know, to me, I find it hard to believe that somebody else was involved because people can never keep their yap shut. Like people say, do you think OJ did it? Yes, because if you buy into the theory that the police had a big conspiracy and they were trying to frame him, they're idle. One of them would have broken ranks by now and done a two, three million dollar deal

with St. Martin's Press or whoever and written a book and made a movie about what really happened. So I think that if Jorn Vandersloot and the Calpo brothers had had help, somebody would have cracked by now. Hi, I'm Renee from LA.

What about his father? Nothing happened to him? His father died. His father had a heart attack or a stroke on a tennis court. I blame Jorn Vandersloot. Because all the pressure and all the stress. All the covering up the murder. Do you remember Paulus running from

the cameras? Oh yeah. Remember when we would ask Paulus a question? He'd literally the judge would take off running. All you could see was elbows and tail holes running away. Hi. So my question is do you think the culture of men as predators is changing at all?

Do I think the culture of men as predators is changing? No, I do not. Because the rape statistics, the attack statistics, the murder statistics are high, rising in many areas. Why? I don't know. And all this awareness. I mean, we're aware, but it's still happening and people are still covering for them. All I can think is to keep teaching our children to teach their children to teach their children. And all I can do is try to put their sorry ass in jail. That's all I can think of to do.

Thank you. Nancy, I'd like to make a note about that. One thing, when they're face-to-face with a predator, they are very likable, very approachable. They're charming. They're people that know how to build rapport with you within seconds. They're the types of people that get into your life so rapidly, you don't even realize it's happening. When you see this happening, you need to be aware that's not normal. Because what they're trying to do is to create trust with you.

And what happens is that these young girls, a boy pays attention to them, they get all excited about it, and they let their guard down. I teach my children, never let your guard down, ever. Also, rapists are a heterogeneous group. They're not homogenized. They're not just one

subtype. The rape, the sex crime, is a way to express so many different disorders. It's a perversion. It's a way to show hatred. It's a way to have power. It's a way to kill. It's a way to raise one's excitement level if you're a sociopath. So because rape is an expression of so many types of psychopathologies it wouldn't make sense that public awareness would decrease sex crimes it's just not going to work that way we have to work on ourselves and our children to keep them safe right and don't you think Bethany that starts a lot of times with porn addiction the

porn addiction is that their flavor gets stronger and stronger and stronger and they kind of keep upping their game to get the endorphins going. Porn addiction and sex addiction is on the rise. Yes, it is. Question? Yes. So, I love you guys. That's why I'm here and you.

Where was the chaperones? And if you're, I'm paranoid about going to certain places. I live here. But why is the parents not more straight from what their kids do? Get their phones, their passwords. And what was the chaperones for Natalie? Okay, when all this happened, I really roasted

the chaperones. Big time. Because I felt the same way that you do right now. Then, after I started with Fox Nation, Kelly found one of the chaperones that would agree to speak to me.

Bob Plummer. Yes. And he said, I'm so sorry. We were just facilitating the travel and the hotels. I mean, they're 18. And there were how many? Four of us or how many,

and when they would go somewhere in a group together, we couldn't watch every single one of them. And I have to tell you, I felt really bad. But yet I still wonder when you send your children away with chaperones, you think they're watching them. I think that there was a misunderstanding. There were not enough chaperones, and the ones that went were very ethical and devoted, and they did their best. They just could not watch all those students. Well, and Nancy,

I don't know if you remember that Bob Plummer said he warned all of the students after he saw somebody that was like Joran van der Sloot at the pool who pulled a knife out. So the chaperone did warn all of the students, but there were seven chaperones and 125 students. There's just not enough. There's not enough eyes. And remember, these girls are nice girls from good families. And when somebody offers them, oh, do you want a glass of water? Do you want a drink? They're socialized to be polite and to say yes. So they were sitting ducks from that standpoint if they were spiking drinks.

You should just say, hell no. Go away. Uh-uh. Good question. Yes, I have a question. So I know crime can happen anywhere, but should we be more cautious and worried traveling outside of the country because the officers who could be corrupt and protect their own?

Will you please read my book? Because it's fighting back. Don't be a victim. Fighting back against America's crime wave. Because I started writing about crimes when you travel. And I really just started writing it about Aaron Andrews. That's what it was going to be a little segment about when you're in your hotel room. Know that people can look through the peephole and do this and don't do that.

The more I investigated, it turned into a huge chapter in the book about people getting raped and killed while they're on vacation these five-star all-inclusive resorts uh-uh honey i have not put my foot back in mexico since i wrote that book and because the crime there is insane um another thing ladies jump in another thing is that they don't have police like we have police i learned in aruba they didn't even have 9-1-1 you get raped and thrown on the side of the road there's no 9-1-1 to call what do you remember the story we covered about the two high school age kids who went with their parents to Mexico City. They had one drink of alcohol. Maybe they were 21, 22.

Abby Conner. Abby Conner. Floating in the pool, face down, dead. So not only can you not rely on the police or law enforcement, but you can't rely on the things you ingest either. There's no regulation there. Like here, alcohol is a big business. I mean, we're in Vegas for Pete's sake.

And it's highly regulated by the government. You're not going to belly up to the bar and get some moonshine here. That's not going to happen. Because it would ruin the reputation of this facility. That happened to Abby Connor. She and her brother were there with their mom, their family. They were going to have dinner that night. But Abby didn't show up.

So the mom, Jenny, was trying to find her, and they came rushing up and said there's been an accident. She and her brother had one drink at the bar, and the next thing, there was no lifeguards, no security cams. She was face down in the bar, in the pool, waist deep, and she could swim. And the brother was also face down. He lived, but he had a broken collarbone. They airlifted Abby.

She died. It was tainted alcohol in Mexico where, say the hotel buys two million dollars of alcohol every other month. Think how much the provider can make if they use moonshine made in

somebody's garage. And half of that money all goes in their pocket so it is rampant and the milwaukee journal did an expose on tainted alcohol and it is rampant in other countries so when you go and i mean just like just like Mexico or any of the islands, it's a 90-minute trip. They don't have regulations. They don't have cops like we have. And you're really at a disadvantage, especially if you don't speak the language. Certain environments are a perfect storm for crime and for being a victim. and that's what we're talking about today i think bottom line is you leave your rights at home when you travel abroad and from best experience she didn't get help right away what they told her is she was in a crack house and she would show up

just like all the other tourists so they lost a valuable time in searching for her because police just wrote it off oh and remember guys when we went to the crack house we were in a car and beth went stop she said that's the crack house that i went in looking for natalie who had never so much come home drunk and straight a student pre-med do y'all remember we were in the car and Beth pointed to a cross just stuck on the side of the road and she said let me get out and we all got out went with her she said I was out of my mind I I just felt Natalie was still alive I couldn't find her. And I was looking blindly in Aruba, Natalie, you know, basically calling for her. And I saw this cross and I got out of the cab and I fell on the dirt and I had the dirt in my hand. I'm like, God in heaven, where is Natalie? And I looked up,

I saw another cross. I walked to it. I went on my knees. I saw another cross. She went up 18 crosses up a hill. Stations of the cross. She said when she got to the top of the hill and we went there, there was a little chapel. I think it was called Buena Vista, beautiful vista. And you look out and you can see mountains and ocean. She said, I came to this chapel. It was as big as your kitchen table. And she said, suddenly I knew that Natalie was dead. She said, I felt like all of Aruba was just like writhing under me, just evil. But when I got to this chapel, everything became still and I knew Natalie was dead. I will never forget it as long as I live. You remember that, Cheryl? I do. And Nancy, y'all, Nancy and I worked these cases as

a prosecutor and as a crime scene investigator, but sometimes in those moments, we're standing there just as two mamas, and our heart was breaking for Beth all over again. And we were standing there with her at that chapel, and since 2005, Beth knows the truth. She knows Natalie was murdered. She knows she's not coming home. But she looked at Nancy and I, and she said, can I just tell y'all, I still carry her passport just in case, just in case they find her and I can bring her home. And that's the reason we go back. That's the reason we do it. Signing off. Goodbye, friends.