Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - What triggered Las Vegas massacre? Florida teacher charged with abusing autistic boy

Episode Date: October 3, 2017

Stephen Paddock, the 64-year-old millionaire blamed for killing 59 people and wounding 527 others in Las Vegas, doesn't fit the profile of a mass shooter. The retired accountant fired high-powered rifles from the windows of a suite on the 32nd floor of a hotel Sunday night. Nancy Grace digs into the questions surrounding the massacre with Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and reporter Cheryl White. Nancy also looks at a disturbing case in Florida, where a teacher and 2 school administrators face charges after an investigation into the treatment of a boy with non-verbal autism. Northwest Florida Daily News reporters Heather Osbourne and Tom McLaughlin and the child's father Eddie Perillo discuss the case with Grace. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. February 2004, Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. Join the search as an investigative reporter uncovers new evidence, interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting new investigative series the disappearance of maura murray saturdays 7 6 central and 9 8 central on oxygen the new network for crime crime stories with nancy grace on siriusumph, Channel 132. Dick is solely responsible for this heinous act. Steven Paddock, an unassuming 64-year-old with no criminal record, is now allegedly the man behind the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history.

From the 32nd floor of Mandalay Bay, he unleashed a torrent of bullets into the crowd of a country music festival 1,100 feet away. Listen. The sound different from any we've heard from all other recent mass shootings because this time a rifle functioning like a machine gun was used. An individual was described as a lone wolf. I don't know how it could have been prevented. As the death toll has continued to rise, investigators rushed to track down everything, anything about

the shooter. We're trying to understand what's wrong, what happened. We're still just completely befuddled. A millionaire Las Vegas gunman murders 59 people, injuring 527. How in the hay did this guy take 23 guns hidden in 10 bags into the luxury Mandalay Bay sniper's nest. And there he allegedly converts full auto assault rifles onto tripods. How did this happen? A seemingly normal guy with about a half a million dollar retirement home and a senior's community. What went wrong? This is the biggest mass shooting in U.S. history. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us this morning. Our prayers to the victims and their families. The faces of these victims are so disturbing. 59 dead, 527 injured, a kindergarten teacher, a cheerleader, a wife who dies in her husband's arms, army vets, a nurse who saved his wife, who is a surgeon. I mean, I've been placing myself in

their position ever since I heard about the shooting. Can you imagine being there with your spouse or your children? What can you do besides throw your body over them and try to take a bullet? The fear, the sheer fear of what happened. And how can we stop it from happening again? Or can we? Hollywood celebrities now whining on their shows complaining about this and that one woman uh an executive at cbs now fired after she goes online a top cbs lawyer fired for writing online she has quote no sympathy for the vegas victims because, quote, probably gun-toting Republicans?

No sympathy for the victims because they were probably gun-toting Republicans because what, they were listening to country music? Really? Really? With me, Brian Levin, Director at the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism at Cal State San Bernardino. Joseph Scott Morgan, Forensics Expert, Professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University. Cheryl White, Crime Stories Investigative Reporter and renowned psychoanalyst out of L.A., Dr. Bethany Marshall. First of all, Brian, thank you for being with us.

What happened? We had an inveterate gambler, a millionaire. He had a pilot's license. He was also a hunter. Comes from Mesquite, Nevada, 90 miles, 80, 90 miles away. Checks into the Mandalay Bay Hotel. Brings in a variety of weapons. Checks into the Mandalay Bay Hotel, brings in a variety of weapons, checks into the 32nd floor.

23 guns, Brian Levin. And, guys, Brian knows what he's talking about. He's the director at the Center for Hate and Extremism, the study of it. This guy, as he's saying, Stephen Paddock, the cops recovered 23 guns, some with scopes, military-grade ammo, tripods like you would a camera. He put his gun up on the tripod to make it even more deadly. He smashed two windows of his corner suite to create a so-called kill box at the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival. Okay, Brian Levin, you were saying he brought an assortment of guns and?

He brings an assortment of guns and towards the end of this country music festival, the Route 91 Festival in Las Vegas, goes on a shooting spree that lasts minutes and minutes and minutes. And as you said, 59 dead, 527 wounded. And among the people who were slaughtered are the most wonderful people, moms and people who work for police departments and schools and hospitals. The heart of America gunned down in Las Vegas trying to see a country music festival, something that I do with my son, go to see concerts there routinely. The thing about the tripods is really intriguing me because it brings to mind,

you remember the hit movie American Sniper, and to get a hit the way he was planning it, you need for your stance to be still like a sniper would. I mean, what got into this head to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, men, we need you guys, Brian, Joe Scott, Cheryl, Bethany. I mean, from what we hear, which is befuddling. He had no real religious motives. He was not like a crazy political nut one way or the other. You know, everybody used to say right wing nut. Yeah. Remember now with the left going crazy too, everybody's going, everybody's crazy. But the point is whether you're left or right or somewhere in the middle, this guy apparently had no firm political affiliations, no army training, no criminal record.

This is all according to his brother. Hold on. Listen to what the killer's brother has to say. probably except after the hurricane like text you texted me i can show you the text it's boring it's like you okay yeah we talked when we had something to talk about would you and he checked me a picture of you know that he won forty thousand dollars on a slot machine you know but that's the way he played i mean he's not a normal guy he's a little bigger than a normal guy, but he played video poker. He's in the black on his poker play and his gambling. He's ahead. Video poker.

Video poker, he's ahead. Because he would have had his card in every time. I mean, he played high-stakes video poker to be able to stay at home in the casino. Now, did you see this coming? How do you feel about this? There's absolutely, I mean, I'm not even going to answer that stupid question. There's, I've already told. There's absolutely no, it's like an asteroid fell out of the sky.

If an asteroid fell right here, you would feel the exact same way as I feel right now. There's exactly no, no logic, no reach even for me where my brother would have done this. There's no freaking, there's nothing. So that is what the brother had to say. Now, hold on, Bethany. We know another tidbit. Cheryl White, investigative reporter. What do you know about him sending money overseas?

Well, there were early reports that he had sent money to Thailand, but that's unconfirmed at this point. But that was reported early on in all of this. He did have a lot of money. He told his neighbors that he gambled for a living. We do know he recently hit a pretty big jackpot. Also, Nancy, in the room, his hotel room, they found several loaded magazines. The guns had scopes on them. You mentioned they were on tripods.

There were more than 19 firearms and explosives in his home when they raided the home and several thousand rounds of ammunition. So in my mind, this is not something that came up recently. This was something that he planned to do. Maybe not this exact event, but something that had been in his mind for a while. Dr. Bethany, remind me to circle back on gun control because, you know, I am a victim of gun violence. But I'm getting an idea, Bethany. Now, you're the shrink. I'm just a trial lawyer. Okay. Dr. Bethany Marshall, something that Cheryl White just said

that he would tell neighbors he made a living off gambling. I mean, who does he think he is? George Clooney in Ocean's Eleven. But now hold on, hold on. You got to help me refine this. Okay. Somebody that claims they're a professional gambler, but they're not. They're just a guy, a regular guy, somebody that claims they can beat the house, that they can count cards. That, for the first time, is giving me an insight into this guy, somebody that claims to be more suave, more sophisticated, smarter, a high roller than he really is. That's giving me a clue, but I don't know what the clue is exactly. Well, and to add to that, Nancy, according to one report in a deposition, because he had a slip and fall in one of the casinos, and during the

deposition, he was careless, he was slovenly, he had very poor grooming. So you have this dichotomy of him being grandiose, saying that he's a professional gambler, he can beat the house. And yet he's slovenly, according to a neighbor, his house was like a frat house, or like somebody who was a college student, just had one dining room table and chairs, no artwork on the walls. I'm going to say... Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let me take that in. Hold on. So he's bragging that he's basically George Clooney or, let's see, Brad Pitt or George Clooney. I like Elliot Gould in that, but okay, that's another can of worms.

He's claiming he is a high roller, a professional gambler. He's not. That's a dichotomy that then you go in his home and there's, it's just like bear, like animal house. Okay, go ahead. And he's sending money to Thailand, which suggests that he wants to retire in a place where there's a lot of sex workers. So that there's sort of a sexual component. Also, he's quite itinerant, Nancy. He moved throughout his late adulthood, he moved 27 times. So this is a guy who does not put down roots any one place. So what we know about mass shooters is they fall into three categories. There's the psychopathic, the one who just is hyper-rational, cold-blooded.

There's the psychotic, that's the one who has mental illness. And then there's the depressive, the one who is in some sort of mental anguish, has an ax to grind against society. All of these clues lead me to believe he's the psychopathic killer, that he's cold blooded. And Nancy, according to some reports, his father was a felon and was. Oh, hey, not just a felon, but a felon that beat the system. His dad was a bank robber that escaped and was on the lam. I think for years before he was caught outside of an Oregon bingo house. Bingo, B-I-N-G-O, that's what I'm saying. So he was on the lam, forget the bingo.

He was on the lam for years. That is not I'm saying. So he was on the lam, forget the bingo. He was on the lam for years. That is not easy to do. I'm trying to put all this together in a blender and come up with something we can digest. 27 moves, pretends he's a high roller, lives in kind of a, it looks great on the outside. It's a half a million dollar home. But on the inside, it's just odds and ends of furniture completely undone. I know this sounds, if you're listening, like, what is she talking about? I'm trying to figure out who this guy is because he's a conundrum.

Bethany, what? Okay, so I would say he's the psychopathic killer. And I'll tell you why. Some of these psychopaths are so grandiose that they feel they do not have to play by the rules of society. So when you look at them, you see that they're very slovenly. Their grooming is poor. They don't brush their teeth. Their houses aren't decorated. They do not put down roots because they don't attach to other people. So you know, if you've ever seen these cult leaders who have

like these sex cults, and they're sociopathic, psychopathic, they get everybody to follow them like the Piper, but they have these long, long beards, you know, dirty teeth, they don't bathe. There's the conundrum right there that the grandiosity that's so severe, that you don't even have to bathe or dress, You just show up as you are. Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm trying to digest this. Cheryl, Joe Scott, hold on, bear with me. Back to Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate and Extremism

at Cal State San Bernardino. Brian, this is your niche. And what I'm hearing from Bethany Marshall, Dr. Marshall is saying that he, in his mind, believed he was all that. He was the consummate gambler. He could beat the house. He had a half a million dollar retirement home. He was funneling money to Thailand for some reason. His dad beat the system for years and years and years as a bank robber on the lam

this idea that society's rules are beneath you because you don't need the rules because you're smarter than everybody else you don't have to live by those rules add in she said a slip and fall at a casino and let me tell you something about Mandalay Bay. At the top of it, I'm pretty sure, is the Four Seasons. The few times that we have been out there. I just tried to get an idea of who this guy is and why. And the reason I want to know... Yes, thank you.

A profile. The reason I want to know why, Brian, is because I don't want it to happen again. Well, unfortunately, in a free society that has access to weapons and with someone who can just fly a psychological perspective, it almost fits hand in glove with what our template is. And let me tell you what that is. We have a template of motivations with regard to these kinds of symbolic killers. First type of the ideologically motivated can be religious or political or a hybrid. ISIS claimed responsibility. That's pretty much tabled by the feds. They've claimed responsibility for a casino attack in the Philippines

from a disgruntled gambler in June and just about every train derailment. So we'll leave that out. The second type of offender that we see is the psychologically dangerous. Listen to how similar it is. You could have someone who's psychotic. You could have a sociopath, someone with a cognitive impairment, a depressive in that category, that's number two. Number three, personal benefit or revenge, or you can have some combination thereof, ideological, which we don't think this is, number two, the psychologically dangerous, and number three, personal benefit or revenge.

And revenge can include some kind of enhancement of reputation, getting back, you know, a power grab by using violence. And oftentimes when people have, you know, this kind of anger, the violence will come out slipshod. And that may very well be what happened here. Can I say just one other quick thing, because I know you have a bunch of great guests here. His father also is alleged to have had some kind of mental distress. We also saw with Whitman, the University of Texas shooter, mass shooter in 66, he turned out to have a brain tumor. So I'm really interested

into what catalyzed him into this violence. And we simply don't know yet. I want to pause and thank our partner. It's LegalZoom. When you run your own business, you know time equals money. That's not just an old saying, it's true. So why waste your valuable time dealing with issues LegalZoom can help with? You may already know over 2 million people have used LegalZoom to start their businesses. But LegalZoom services don't end there. Running a business comes with taxes, contracts, hiring employees, basically a lot of fine print. And that is why LegalZoom built a network of independent lawyers.

They're licensed in all 50 states to provide you the advice you need to get through the daily grind of running a business. And you don't have to worry about billable hours. LegalZoom is not a law firm. Instead, you can count on upfront pricing and clarity. So invest your time and money in growing your business. Let LegalZoom help with the legal stuff. For special savings, be sure to enter promo code NANCY in the referral box at checkout for special savings only at LegalZoom.com. LegalZoom.com.

And now, listen to this. All of a sudden we just heard like three or four little pop, pop, pop. And everybody kind of looked around and said, oh, it's just firecrackers. And then we heard pop, pop, pop, and it just kept going and going. And my husband said, that's not firecrackers. That sounds like a semiotic rifle. And then everybody started screaming and started to run and i looked over to my right where this girl had been standing right beside me and uh she had fallen and was first she stood there and she grabbed her stomach and she looked at her hands her hands are all bloody and then uh

she's wearing like a little crop top and you know blue jean shorts and cowboy boots and she looked at her hands, her hands were all bloody, and then she was wearing like a little crop top, you know, blue jean shorts and cowboy boots, and she looked at her hands, her hands were bloody, and she just kind of screamed and she just fell back. And then everybody started yelling, and there were some guys there, and we just started jumping up and down, like, waving for help, help. And then all of a sudden we just heard a whole bunch of shots fired, and people started running. And so my husband said, get down, get down. And so we bent down, and everybody was just running just straight up. And you could see people getting shot and people falling.

When you listen to the victims' families, it's heartbreaking. Brian Levin, director at the Center for Study of Hate and Extremism, Cal State San Bernardino. I'm not quite sure how it happened, but it seems very well planned out. I mean, he had an arsenal with him, Brian. He did, but you know something? What I often see with these kinds of attacks is, and I'm glad that we're concentrating on the victims and the survivors. That's what drew our community together in San Bernardino after our terror attack. And we saw all these stories of heroes, and we're seeing that in Las Vegas as well.

You know, we celebritize these people. I'll tell you something. Taking an assault weapon and making it an automatic weapon and mowing down innocent people in basically a contained field, doesn't take any great skill. So, you know, whatever arsenal he had, this kind of violence didn't represent any skill. All it represented was unrestrained anger. And I'm glad that we're concentrating on the heroes of this story rather than this loser.

I just don't understand what he had to be angry about. I mean, he's got a ton of money. He's in a half a million dollar home that he has by himself, although I think he had a girlfriend living with him, although she was out of the country in Tokyo at the time this went down. So she is not implicated in it. But what does he have to be angry about? Brian Levin, director at the Center for Study of Hate and Extremism, Cal State.

Also with me, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, how did he physically pull it off? I mean, when the mayhem had been there for a while, he didn't just check in that morning. Nobody noticed the assault rifles and the tripods and all the ammo when they were cleaning the room? And this is another thing. He is a, as already has been stated,

I don't know if he's a compulsive gambler, but he's deeply involved in his life. As you well know, he's up in those upper tier of those floors at Mandalay Bay. You don't stay up there unless you are a high roller. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. I don't know if he just kind of flew under the radar. Before we had the twins, when I took them to Vegas, we stayed in Hard Rock and partied down. Okay.

But before that, my husband and I had been out there twice, I think. We stayed up at the top at the Four Seasons. And let me tell you something. We are not high rollers. Just to say I did it, I put one quarter in a slot machine. Just to say I have gambled. Okay. So if they comped in the room fine but

there's more than one way to skin a cat you do not have to be a high roller to be at the top well yeah well so joe scott but i do agree with you a lot of high rollers do get to stay at the top for a lower price um and when i say high rollers i don't necessarily mean they win joe scott i mean they gamble a lot. Go ahead. Yeah, that goes right along with the premise that no one actually wins in Vegas. He's just spending a lot of money there. If you take a look at the scene, he's from the perspective that everybody can see on the news.

Two of these windows are knocked out. And there's like two or three windows in between them that aren't. So that gives me an idea that this is a rather large suite that he is in. And it was a kill box, as has been previously stated. I know that I think Alan's on the thing. And, you know, when I first heard it, it sounded like a belt-fed, fully automatic weapon to me based on my time in the service. And as it turned out, he had multiple weapon platforms that were up there. And kind of let me break that down to you. He had what appears to be AR-15 type weapons, which is, if the public is familiar with that, it's like the family of the M16, the M4 that you see our troops carrying now. And he also had, which fires a 5.56 millimeter round, he also had a much more bulky round,

which is commonly associated with hunting, which is a 308 round. And so he had multiple platforms, all these weapons. It seems at least initially that he has gotten conversion kits, which are not hard to get, and converted some of these weapons. And our theory is, at least I've been talking with some of my colleagues, our theory is that he had multiple of these weapons preloaded. And there's not a huge break when you listen to the sound. It just goes pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, tiny break.

And then he'll go to the next one. I heard that. It actually sounded like little pops. You're right. Yeah. So what's your point? Well, my point is, is that he is laying down an incredible field of fire. You're firing down literally on a field of

people. We're talking 22,000 plus people, Nancy, in an area where they can't get to cover. You've got intersecting lanes of fire here. That's why they call it a kill box. If he doesn't hit you with a round, a lot of these people are being injured by concrete and asphalt that's being thrown up as little pieces, little fragments. You've got grounds that are passing through bodies that are creating bone and shrapnel. These people are getting injured. I hear you. I hear you. And you know what it's making me think of? All the people, all the young, old, middle-aged. And I'm so angry at that CBS executive, a lady, I think a mom,

because she describes herself as mommy, a lawyer who claims they were all gun-toting Republicans. And I have learned, Dr. Bethany, that it's not about Republicans or Democrats. It is not about what your beliefs are. These are people running for their lives. Sonny Mellon, a 29-year-old nurse, shot in the back as he and his wife, Heather, tried to run. Jordan McIldoon, just 23 years old, a mechanic apprentice, was there with his girlfriend. He shot dead.

Quentin Robbins, 20, along with kindergarten teacher and mother of two, Jenny Parks. Susan Smith, office manager, 53, dead. Denise Berditas, 50, died in her husband Tony's arms just minutes after she posts a happy photo of themselves at the festival. Dana Gardner, Bailey Schweitzer, Angie Gomez, a school secretary, Lisa Romero, Charleston Hartsville. All of these people have grieving families. And when I hear somebody say, and you know me, I hate all politicians. I hate the Democrats. I hate the Republicans because they all lie whenever it suits them. I can't believe that people are saying they feel nothing for these moms and dads and young people slaughtered like animals by this guy. How could somebody even say that, Dr. Bethany?

You know, Nancy, you know what's interesting? In my practice yesterday, my clinical practice, all my patients were talking about this. You know, almost every single one mentioned the CBS attorney. That's what struck everybody. The thrill kill, the killing, the loss of life. But then how could this mom, this attorney, say that she had no sympathy for the victims? It's hard to even shrink that one. It's so callous. Did you know this? Did you know allegedly two representatives refused to take part in a moment of silence? What? Look, I'm not saying any of these people, the CBS person who CBS immediately fired her rear end as they should have absolutely so it's not on CBS

it's on the person that did it it was representative Clark and Moulton I don't understand why they would both Clark and Moulton say they're refusing to recognize a moment of silence for these people. I think people have lost perspective. I think that they don't see that these are real lives. This is a real crime. And this is not a political problem. This is a human problem, Nancy. It is so devastating. And can I say something about this shooter?

I want to circle back to his motivation for a second. We're talking about all these different motivations. I think the motivation for this shooter was that it was a thrill kill. I really think so because what happens with these psychopaths is that they have a lot of internal deadness and boredom. And sometimes they have to seek thrill-seeking kind of environments because that's the only way they can feel alive. And there's one thing that all shooters have in common. You know, Nancy, we've covered these kinds of stories together over the years. You've had me as a guest on your show. All of these mass shootings have a fish-in-a-barrel quality, okay?

So the shooters like to be at the top, at the 32nd floor of a hotel, at the top of the stairway, walking into a classroom that's locked so that people can't get out, at the top of a stadium. Have you ever noticed that, that there's a fish in a barrel quality? That's, even though shooters are a heterogeneous group, that no two shooters are alike, the MO is always similar in these mass shootings. There are a couple other similarities. In 91% of the cases of these mass shootings, it was reported that the shooter had a significant loss in a love relationship just prior to the shooting, and almost all of them bragged

about their intent, either online or with a loved one prior to the shooting. So this is what we know they have in common. Even though the motivations are different, the MO is always similar. Cheryl White, speaking of the inner workings of the mind, what did the mother tell the children about their bank robber dad. And this is the Vegas mass shooter's father, who was the bank robber that went on the lam and was on the FBI most wanted list and eluded police for years. What did his mother tell him?

Well, apparently, according to the shooter's brother, who lives in Orlando, their mom told him that their father had died. He was convicted in 1961 of a series of bank robberies, the father, and he was in prison. So the mother just told them their father had died. Can you imagine finding out later who your father was and what he had done? He was in prison and escaped in 1968. He was on the FBI's most wanted list for almost all of the 1970s.

So what a shocker that must have been. You know, I'm looking at all the heroes. A teen Vegas survivor says a hero's stranger picked her up, threw her over his shoulder after she was shot in the leg and couldn't escape, and she lived to tell the story. Shot in the back and still the very best mother a brand new mother risks her life to shield a gunned down police officer boyfriend during the vegas attack she shot in the back and she risks her life to shield a police officer in the Vegas attack. I mean, the stories, Joe Scott Morgan, of the human spirit of people being brave,

protecting others, is overwhelming to me when I think about what they were living through at that moment. It echoes in your heart. You believe to, you know, most of us can't even comprehend the terror and helplessness. And for some reason, who knows what it is within us. Many people stood up in the midst of this horror and actually began to help people while rounds are being pumped in all around them. You had police officers and EMTs and firefighters. A lot of these people are off duty. A lot of these people do their job in other places and were in town, began running toward the fire to put themselves in harm's way, to shield all of these innocent people from this hell that's raining down

from above. And it is amazing, these stories that are coming out. And we're only hearing the beginning of it. You know, it reminds me of something. It reminds me of something, it reminds me of something I remember when I was, I don't know why I was there. I was on the scene when the Olympic bombing occurred in Atlanta. I was still in the district attorney's office. And I remember hearing the explosion and immediately the phone started ringing and I could see what happened. Jumped out of my car and started running toward whatever.

I didn't know what exactly was happening. I looked around as I was getting closer. All around were people I knew from the district attorney's office, other prosecutors, cops, fire people, off-duty EMTs, all running toward the scene, not knowing what was going to happen. And of course, we spent the rest of the night until lunchtime afternoon the next day, processing the scene, speaking to witnesses. I remember that moment. But these people at the Vegas shooting, it was ongoing. People were still being gunned down. You could still hear that popping sound, screaming, and they still stood up. They protected each other.

They fought back. What is going on in a Florida public school? Wait till you hear the latest, but I can tell you this. If these allegations are true and this happened to my children, I would be lying on the courthouse steps screaming for justice. I'm so mad I could chew a nail in half. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want to go straight out to two veteran investigative reporters joining me from the Northwest Florida Daily News with me, Heather Osborne and Tom McLaughlin. To both of you, thank you for being with us. Tom, exactly what do we know of the allegations in this case against a little autistic boy? What we know for sure is that there was a four-year-old nonverbal autistic boy, and there were allegations brought by a teacher's aide that a teacher had been hurting this young child.

Wait a minute. Right there. A four-year-old child. Okay. A four-year-old child is so defenseless. Add on to that, it's a little autistic boy. A little nonverbal is what I think I heard you say. And I'm about to be joined by Noah's dad, Eddie Perillo. A nonverbal autistic child is being hurt.

Those are the allegations surrounding little Noah. What do you mean by hurt, Tom McLaughlin? Tom and Heather joining me from Northwest Florida Daily News. Tom, what do you mean by hurt? There were allegations that there was vinegar being used in disciplining this child? Hold on, Tom. Heather Osborne and Tom McLaughlin,

two veteran investigative reporters, joining me, Heather. When Tom says vinegar was being used. Somebody told me the other day about the apple cider vinegar diet. Well, okay. I go in there, I take a big slug i nearly choked dead okay uh and my esophagus burned i swear for i don't know how many days after that

chugging the apple cider vinegar heather osborne so when tom says vinegar is being used allegedly on a four-year-old boy. What does he mean by that? You know, the teacher said that she used the vinegar to spray on the children's hands as a way to sanitize. Well, I think one allegation may have been that she was using vinegar to possibly spray the student in the mouth or even the face. And we're not quite sure. To sanitize a child's hands, that's not a problem. Okay? So that's not really even an allegation.

That's okay. I'm asking what are the claims against the teacher? This has not gone to a jury trial. We don't know the truth of it. I get it. That's why we keep saying allegedly and allegations. You know what? Joining me right now is Eddie Perillo, the father of four-year-old Noah.

Eddie, thank you for being with me. Can somebody explain to me what are the claims? What is being said, yet to be proven, that was done to your four-year-old son? They, in the abuse report, stayed spraying him with the vinegar bottle, throwing him to the ground, kicking him when he was on the ground, holding his face against a brick wall, putting him in a clothes basket with a pillow on top and holding him in there with her foot, putting,

having a wand with fabric on the end with liquid shoving it in his mouth, all kinds of awful stuff, and keeping food from him and other kids. You're saying the abuse report states that. I've got in my hand the claims and the police report. It a very very long document but i do see the findings also at the end findings and i'm assuming that these findings are actually from human resources within the school that states based on these circumstances and preponderance of evidence, the teacher violated the rules and treated her students inappropriately. Eddie, how did these claims of spraying vinegar in your little boy's face, around his eyes, his mouth, putting him at the bottom of a basket and covering him up and holding him down with your foot, throwing him down on the floor, hitting him and kicking him. Those are some of the allegations.

This is a four-year-old autistic boy. What school was this, Eddie? Kenwood Elementary in Oakwood County, Fallon Beach, Florida. Is that a public school? Yes, it is. Why was your four-year-old at that school? Is that in your neighborhood? Is that how he ended up there? It is. Why was your four-year-old at that school? Is that in your neighborhood? Is that how he ended up there?

It is. It's right around the corner from my house, and they have an ESE class. He started there when he was three years old. It's Exceptional Student Education. That's what ESE stands for. For kids with a learning delay. Okay, I got you. So he's in a special class to help him.

He's four years old. Boy, that's just a little bitty baby. You know, four years old. He's only been on the earth 48 months. Four years old. Why would a teacher hit or kick your baby and spray vinegar in its face? Why?

What was she trying to achieve? She said she was trying to get him to talk. That was the way she had learned how to deal with kids, with his kind of diagnosis. It's just the way she thought. Supposedly, she was doing what she needed to do to control him, which he's not an out-of-control baby. Back to our reporters, Heather Osborne and Tom McLaughlin. I'm reading the documents that I think you have as well, and I'm looking at the human resource findings, and it says at least eight employees have had concerns regarding this teacher and how she interacted with her disabled

students. That is correct. Okay, so at least eight people had concerns. Tom, did they voice the concerns? Did they tell the principal? Well, no. This whole thing started as a mediation between the teacher involved and a teacher's aide, And the teacher's aide began making allegations that the teacher involved, Ms. Stillians, was abusing the children. And that's when they moved beyond, from what they tell us, they moved beyond the mediation and into investigation. Let me understand something, Eddie Perillo. With me is Noah's father.

Eddie, when did you find out about all this? You've got eight people, eight employees saying, yeah, we were worried. Well, why didn't they do something about it? When did you finally learn your child, your four-year-old nonverbal autistic child, was allegedly being kicked, thrown in the floor, hit, sprayed in the face with vinegar. When did you find out all this? I found out about the investigation at the end of the 2016-2017 school year. So about a year, just over a year after the investigation had been done and the teacher in question was transferred to another school, which all the kids have more of a disability than my son.

How can they speak out? If those children are even more disabled, how can they speak out about what's happening to them? They can't. Just as my son, he couldn't come home and tell me, Daddy, my teacher is hurting me. He physically couldn't do it. So therefore, it went out without being known by myself. And the school district failed to tell me about the investigation. Eddie Perillo, could you tell his behavior changed,

or did you think he was having even more problems with his autism? Yeah, I could tell when he was in the class with his teacher. He became more aggressive and would act up more at home, became more aggressive towards his little brother. But as soon as the next school year, when he had another teacher, his aggression, he didn't have any. His whole behavior went back to a normal little kid. What's amazing to me is this happened and the investigation happened and she was already shipped off to another school a year before you found out anything had even occurred. Eddie, how did you find out? One day I went to the school and walking in the hallways, I ran into an acquaintance that was there and just started talking, having conversations.

And they brought up the investigation, and I didn't know what they were talking about. And they realized I didn't know what they were talking about and looked at me and said, you might want to get a copy of that abuse report that was done last year. It's all about your son being abused. And what happened then? And then I contacted the school district, the HR, and for two weeks almost they denied any knowledge of an abuse investigation. And after about two weeks, I told them I was going to call the National Autism Society and the state attorney's office that I knew there was a report done. And at that time they admitted there was a report done

and told me I could get it in a couple of days. And they provided me with a copy of the report. So you basically had to threaten them before you found out what had happened. Yes. Karen, start with me. Psychologist out of New York, joining me along with Heather Osborne, Tom McLaughlin, both from the Northwest Florida Daily News, and Eddie Perillo, the boy's father.

Karen, what is autism? Autism is a developmental, usually genetic, they're thinking, disease. It's a spectrum. So it's the autism spectrum, which means that it exists along a continuum, Nancy, and it can go from severe symptoms to much, much, much less and highly functioning. So usually the symptoms are a failure to engage in typical babbling or pointing and infancy, failure to make eye contact, which you can see a lot in autism, failure to respond to one's own name. There's a real sensitivity to sensory input, movements such as rocking, difficulty playing or interacting with peers, talking about feelings, understanding people's feelings or voice, body language, gestures, obsessive interest in a particular topic, and difficulty breaking from routine. It is not unusual to be nonverbal.

You know, what's hurting me so much, Karen, is this baby. He's 48 months old. Is, according to HR, being abused in the classroom and can't speak for himself? And I really don't know any way of coping and teaching with autism that involves punishment. I mean, there's positive rewards and negative rewards, but not psychologists. And I know that teachers and administrators, we take courses that teach us that we are obligated to report any sign of abuse toward a child, very specifically. So there's nothing about this that's okay. It's really, really damaging. To Eddie Perillo, Noah's dad, Eddie, when you found out that there had been an entire abuse investigation and it was done and the teacher had been shipped off and nobody told you about it? What was your response? I mean, how did you feel when you learned all this? Do you remember that moment?

Yes, yes. When I got a copy of the report, I was by myself in the car reading it. And, you know, you can only imagine what goes through your head as a parent that your son can't come home and tell you, and verbalize and tell you what's going on with him at school and the fact that they all these people knew about it and didn't come forward so there was this little problem between the aide and the teacher so he was subjected to a lot more abuse because the people didn't come forward and then when they did the investigation and there was confirmed findings of the allegations from the school district people that they hid it from me for over a year.

And then when I questioned them about it, they still continued to hide it. So let me understand, where does the case stand now? Is it a criminal investigation? Have there been any arrests made? Tom McLaughlin, is it just a human resources issue? They filed charges against three people, including four charges against Marlene Stillions, who's the teacher. They also filed charges against the investigator, the school district investigator, for failure to report. He's a mandated reporter, as all the educators in the school system are. And the principal at the school, Ms. Vaughn, was also charged with failing to report child abuse.

So let me understand. Heather Osborne, three people have been criminally charged in the alleged abuse of four-year-old Noah, an autistic nonverbal child there at Kenwood Elementary, pre-K. And they are, let me understand this, the principal, the teacher, and someone that was supposed to report abuse? Are those the three people criminally charged, Heather Osborne? Yes, the third was actually the investigator who went into the school. Like Tom was saying earlier, he was also arrested for failure to report child abuse to the Department of Children and Families Abuse Hotline. Well, that is very scary to me,

Eddie Perillo. This is Noah's dad joining us because as a former prosecutor all those years that I prosecuted felonies in inner city Atlanta I counted on teachers to come forward if they thought a child was being abused okay and even to this day I have suspected abuse in certain children and I have told principals and teachers about it as of right now as we are on SiriusXM 132. And when I find out that an investigator is not reporting, I mean, typically, Eddie, they're reporting they think a parent or guardian is abusing the child. But this time, it's a teacher allegedly abusing the child. And they didn't report it, Eddie. Yes.

I don't know what to say. Yeah, they hid it and didn't report it, Eddie. Yes. I don't know what to say. Yeah, they hid it and didn't report it to DCF like they're mandated to or anybody else. They didn't contact myself to let me know what was going on either. Well, one official says, I've worked for 22 years under four different superintendents, and something like this has never occurred. This is what we know. The investigation goes on. Criminal charges pending. With me now, Eddie Perillo, little Noah's father, Heather Osborne, Tom McLaughlin, and Karen Stark, psychologist joining us. We want justice for this four-year-old little autistic boy, nonverbal, who couldn't come home and tell daddy that he was abused.

Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Do you find yourself obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a group of people just like you to talk motives and alibis with? If so, join the CrimeCon Cold Case Club and work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to help uncover new leads and theories in the cold cases they adopt. Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious disappearance of nursing student Mara Murray in 2004, and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen.

Sign up now or find more info at club.crimecon.com. That's club.crimecon.com. This is an iHeart Podcast.