Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - What Will Brian Laundrie's Skull Reveal?

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

A forensic anthropologist now takes over, trying to determine the cause of Brian Laundrie's death. The Laundrie family attorney says the autopsy results on bones and a partial skull that were recovered, came back inconclusive. Identification of the remains was made by dental record comparison, not DNA. Joining Nancy Grace today: Dr. Erin H. Kimmerle, Ph.D. - Forensic Anthropologist, Director of the FL Institute for Forensic Anthropology and Applied Science at the University of South Florida, Author: "Skeletal Trauma: Identification of Skeletal Injuries Resulting from Human Rights Abuse and Armed Conflict", www.ErinKimmerle.com, Instagram: @erin.kimmerle  Dale Carson - Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer, Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself, DaleCarsonLaw.com Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"  Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Angenette Levy - Emmy-nominated Reporter & Anchor, Twitter: @Angenette5 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. No funeral for so-called boyfriend Brian Laundrie after Gabby Petito's remains found in Wyoming and what we believe to be Brian Laundrie's remains found in the Micahatchee Reserve near the Laundrie family home, no funeral. His remains will be cremated. This when we still don't have a COD cause of death on La or a DNA match to laundry. We are hoping there will be a DNA match. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A lot of confusion surrounding the case, including allegations that the Northport police mistook Brian Laundrie leaving the family home for being his mother. Wait a minute.

Let that soak in. Brian Laundrie, the prime suspect in the murder of Gabby Petito, leaves the family home. And the police thought it was his mother, Roberta Laundrie. Take a listen to Erica Jackson, Wink News, R-Cut 396. Northmore PD had surveillance set up around the Laundrie home, but that strategy failed. The people responsible for watching the Laundrie house saw Brian leave in his silver Mustang that car parked in the driveway, and then they thought they saw him come back a few days later. But no, they mixed up Brian and his mom. Like mother, like son.

Do you see the resemblance? Northport police think Brian Laundrie looks very much like his mom, Roberta. They're kind of built similarly. No, they're not. One's a man and one's a woman. They're not built similarly at all. Take a listen to our cut 397 Wink News. North Port PD spokesperson Josh Taylor told me police started tracking Brian after Gabby Petito's family reported her missing in New York. That was Saturday, September 11th.

Police watched him leave in his Mustang Monday,, September 13th, and come back Wednesday, September 15th. All I'm going to say is I know where Mike's at. Chief Todd Garrison made that comment on Thursday, September 16th, confident he knew Brian was inside his parents' home. That changed the next day, Friday, September 17th. Well, needless to say, the timeline has shifted substantially. Right now, we know that the family has left the home but have just returned. Take a listen to Our Cut 398. Erica Jackson.

Taylor admits it was a costly mistake. No case is perfect. Now, we all know that Ryan Laundrie went to the Myakkahatchee Environmental Park on September 13th and likely never left again. And if you look behind me, you can see that the Laundrie's infamous red truck is missing from the driveway. The family's attorney tells me that his parents are currently breathing at an undisclosed location. How did that happen? It was a costly mistake. If police had recognized Brian Laundrie leaving the family home, maybe his death would have been prevented. Maybe. Before we come down too hard on the Northport police, they do say that they were watching him ever since the body of Gabby Petito had been found or ever since they became suspicious of him and her disappearance.

But to mistake his mother for him? With me in All-Star Panel, Dr. Erin Kimmerle, joining us. Dr. Kimmerle, forensic anthropologist, director of the Florida Institute for Forensic Anthropology, University of South Florida, and author of Skeletal Trauma, Identification of Skeletal Injuries Resulting from Human Rights Abuse and Armed Conflict. You can find her at ErinKimmerly.com. Dale Carson, high-profile lawyer, joining us out of the Florida jurisdiction. Also, a former Fed, an FBI agent. Karen Stark, renowned psychologist, joining us out of Manhattan.

You can find her at KarenStark.com. Cheryl McCollum, founder and director of the cold case research institute at coldcasecrimes.org professor forensics jacksonville state university author of blood beneath my feet on amazon and star of a new hit series body bags with joe scott morgan on iheart radio but first to anjanette levy emmy nominated reporter and anchor What can you tell me about the announcement? There will be no funeral for Brian Laundrie. Yeah, the family's attorney, Stephen Bertolino, said that they were going to grieve privately,

the remains would be cremated, and there would be no funeral. Now, we don't know if that means no private memorial service among just family, but obviously this family has people camped out on their lawn, screaming at them daily, protesters, things like that. So I think that they probably would rather avoid any type of public, you know, spectacle or any type of public event that would, you know, bring people out to protest more. So, you know, they're just, I guess, wanting to bury their son privately in some fashion. Well, at least the cremated remains. Yes. Speaking of the remains, still no COD. Take a listen to Our Cut 405. This is Jennifer Holton, Fox 13. The attorney for Brian Laundrie's parents says an autopsy on their son's remains,

described as bones by police, did not reveal a cause or manner of death. The remains will be sent to an anthropologist for further testing. A post-mortem examination taking into account the bones. Laundrie's remains were found in a low-lying area of the Myakkahatchee Creek Environmental Park, where high water had receded. The FBI says the remains were underwater for weeks. Anthropologists will also be looking at soil conditions, temperature, and insect activity to help piece together what happened and potentially when Laundrie died. Straight out to forensic anthropologist and author joining us, Dr. Erin H. Kimmerle.

Dr. Kimmerle, thank you for being with us. I'm very curious as to what parts of the body, well, of the skeleton were found, how the body became skeletonized so quickly, you know, in about a month, and how dental records can identify Brian Laundrie when part of his skull reportedly has been missing. And let me be clear, the police have just issued a statement that rumors or false reports that the DNA did not match Brian Laundrie, that's not true. There has not been a DNA match yet. To Dr. Kimberley, how can you make a dental record comparison when part of the skull reportedly is missing? I mean, I don't want to accept a dental comparison based on one cavity, for Pete's sake. when part of the skull reportedly is missing? I mean, I don't want to accept a dental comparison based on one cavity for Pete's sake.

Right. And usually what we do when we make a comparison of dental remains is we look at all the teeth and what's called the morphology, the shape, the anatomy basically of the teeth and the structure of bone that holds the teeth in the mouth. And then any dental work or things that were modified. Could you repeat that, Dr. Kermalee? You look at the structure of the bone, the jawbone, I guess, that holds the teeth in place. So remember, I'm just a JD. So I thought when you do a dental comparison,

you look and say, oh, here's the cap on the wisdom tooth. Here's a root canal on the bicuspid. And you deduce that no other person would have those specific characteristics. But you're telling me, and this is the first I'm learning of it, is that they actually look at the, I'm calling it jawbone for lack of a better description. That's what they look at? I would say they look at all of it. Some people don't have any cavities and they don't have any dental work. So sometimes there is nothing like that to compare. If that's there, if someone's had crowns and bridges and cavities filled,

then that just gives you more to work with. But it always comes in the first and most important thing is the anatomy. So you're looking at the shape of the teeth. Every tooth has a root that goes down into the bone. So you're looking at all of that anatomy as well. Wow. So you're saying they look at the shape. Is it the jawbone? It's the jawbone

and the maxilla. So it's the top and the bottom. Wait, the jawbone and the what? The maxilla, which is the bone on the top. Maxilla? Maxilla. Maxilla. With an A. An A on the end. The maxilla. And that's the top of the mouth, the bone where the teeth are embedded on the top. Correct. So the jawbone on the bottom, the maxilla on the top. And you're telling me that each tooth has its own individual characteristics. So it's not reliant, a comparison, it's not reliant on cavities or root canals or orthodontia, it's also reliant on the characteristics of each individual tooth and the jawbone and the maxilla, correct? That's correct. And that way we know it's so unique to one person. Okay. I'm glad to hear that. That makes me feel much more confident about the process by which Brian Laundrie's remains are being identified.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Back to my original question. I got you off track, Dr. Kimberley. How would a dental comparison be made from Brian Laundrie's known dental records to the remains found in Myokohachi Preserve if the skull, part of the skull was missing? Well, assuming that the dentition is present, that's what you need. So if that's present, what they would do is x-ray it. And you would have the bones and teeth in front of you with the x-ray of that bone and teeth. And then the x-ray from your missing person.

And so you're comparing them directly x-ray to x-ray and bone to x-ray, bone and teeth to x-ray. And so depending on how much of that is present, you would want enough to make a confident assessment that yes, this is that person, that it's unique to that person. To Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics joining us, Professor at Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott, it sounds very much like what popped into mind is a ballistics comparison. When you have the known bullet taken out of the body and you find what you believe to be the murder weapon and you shoot a bullet through it,

and you take that bullet and you put them both under the microscope, and you determine whether the known bullet out of the body matches the striation marks of the new bullet. It's like a fingerprint. Yeah, it is, and that's a good analogy, Nancy. However, the dental examination is even more robust. Just like Dr. Kimberley was mentioning, the teeth, we have 32. So even if a tooth is missing, there's an examination that annotates that. So if you had wisdom teeth extracted before death, that's a significant investigative finding when you're assessing the postmortem remains that you have.

And also remember, the tooth has multiple planes of identification. You've got the top and all the sides, and a tooth can literally be rotated. And that's the way dentists look at it. They'll refer to rotation. It can be rotated in the socket all the way around 360 degrees like the compass. And they make note of that. So for every tooth, think of each tooth as analogous to one bullet, if you will. So it's that very specific.

So many other indicators. I mean, the reality, Cheryl McCollum, while we're saying there's no DNA match and there's no COD cause of death, in the real world, the fact that these remains are found so close to his backpack, his notebook, his dry bag. I mean, you would have to believe that these items were placed there, planted there, along with an unidentified body or remains, which is very far-fetched. It's far-fetched.

And I mean, again, where would the parents get that? Where would they get the matching teeth? How would they fake dental records? I mean, all that's too much. But I will tell you how this stems and how we got here. It's because people were not forthcoming and transparent and open and honest. We were told the wrong dates, the wrong location and some wrong facts. We've gone from the 13th to the 14th. We've gone from Carlton Reserve to My Hatchie Park.

We've gone from, oh, his mom bought him a cell phone on the 14th. I mean, that it's not possible anymore. And then we're told by the lawyer, oh, no, I reported him missing myself. And then law enforcement says, no, he didn't. This has been this whole case. If they had come out right off the bat on the 13th and said, Brian is missing, he left here upset and left his wallet and cell phone, we would have all been concerned that he harmed himself. But they didn't do that. And they didn't come out on the 14th or the 15th or the 16th or the 17th either. Is that you, Karen Stark? No, Nancy, I was just going to jump in. It's Anjanette. I actually interviewed the lawyer last Friday and asked him about a lot of this. And he told me that he told the FBI on Monday.

He said it was either Monday the 13th or Tuesday the 14th that morning that Brian hadn't come home. They weren't reporting him missing per se, but he said he told the FBI that. And then that week they didn't really speak about it anymore. And he claims the parents actually went out there that Monday night and looked for him at the Carlton Reserve and he said that that area where they found Brian is where the dad went out there on October 7th and searched with the police and he said that was the area they told them to look right before but it was underwater to dr erin kimberly joining us forensic anthropologist dr kimberly the remains

as we know them and there doesn't seem to be a full body which would be 206 bones we don't know that but it's reportedly not a whole body. All the remains have been sent to a forensic anthropologist. Why couldn't the medical examiner determine cause of death? And what will an anthropologist be doing to ID Brian Laundrie's remains? Well, usually when there's a case like this where the remains are skeletal or in decomposing, some sort of decomposition and then skeletonized, an anthropologist will get involved and help with ID, but also help with looking at the injuries to assess the trauma.

We will give an opinion and usually the medical examiner then takes that opinion and makes it part of their final determination for the cause of death. And so there's two things here. One, for bones to be missing, to me, that says a lot about how the scene was processed. When you have water, like Florida gets these low line areas that during the rainy season become swamps and then half the year they're dry. But in, that sounds like what this is, bones will spread sometimes up to 40 feet. And also all the leaf litter,

all that debris will get deposited on remains. So they sort of become buried almost just from natural deposition. And so you have to really excavate the surface. You want to make sure all the water is gone, pump it out if it's still there, and then do a really good recovery to find all those fragments and all those smaller bones. And in a case where if the skull is fractured, if it's in pieces, then an anthropologist should be able to look at that and say something about the mechanism of force. So was this a fracture from blunt trauma, from a gunshot wound, or from some kind of post-mortem damage? And that's really the key that they should be

looking at at this point. I don't recall any evidence suggesting he had taken a gun with him. If anybody on the panel knows about that, speak up now and certainly don't forever hold your peace but what i what i don't understand is how he could have obtained that fracture to the skull without a gun how did that happen what's your best guess and this is dale i look if an alligator found a fresh meal it'd be simple to crush the skull and eat part of the remains. And the result would be you'd find tooth marks on that piece of bone that the doctor's talking about. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, how did Brian Laundrie die?

Take a listen to Our Cut 404 from ABC7. Along with Brian's remains, police say a backpack, a notebook, and clothing belonging to him were also found nearby. So, we are... But whether they'll provide any answers about what happened to his fiancee, Gabby Petito, is still unknown. The notebook, a possible key to so many unanswered questions as to what happened to Brian and Gabby. But finding those clues could take time.

That will need to be processed. We want to make sure that that's handled as carefully as possible. You only get one shot at these types of items. To hurry up and, you know, rifle through that, potentially damaging it would, you know, would not be helpful. As for how Brian Laundrie died, that remains an unanswered question. Are there any weapons found? I can't get into that information. Right there at the end, you hear Josh Taylor of Northport PD being asked, were there any weapons found? And he says he can't get into that information. Now, many of you have seen the photo of Brian Laundrie's home

there that he had at his parents' still and there looked to be a gun was it painted red white and blue yes Jackie's saying yes as I'm just remembering it I looked at the picture a while back there was a gun mounted on the wall and I recall it being painted red white and blue was it operational I don't know but it seems to me that that's the kind of thing, Karen Stark, New York psychologist, that the parents would notice if it's missing. I mean, right when you walk in, you can see it up on the left side of the room prominently displayed. If that were missing and your son were missing, wouldn't that have been revealed? So you would think, Nancy, but as is the case with

these parents and the reason that people are so outraged, and believe me, I know they lost their son and they're grieving and that's terrible, but they've been totally uncooperative. They immediately lawyered up. They don't give any kind of information about where he is, what happened specifically. They say he left one night, then he left a different day, then everything is changing. These are not parents who are really trying to help figure out what happened to Gabby and certainly didn't try and figure out what happened to their son.

I don't even understand that they would take the car and bring the car back. If they knew he was still alive, I thought he was still alive. Wouldn't he need his car? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Dale Carson joining me, high-profile lawyer out of Jacksonville and former FBI agent. We've heard nothing about a gun being used. So how is this skull cracked? Well, I mean, it's certainly clear that that is a very swampy area. It was inundated. We know there are large predators,

particularly alligators in the area, and they love a free meal. And part of their methodology is to keep that meal underwater for a period of time until it's palatable for them. So that's probably what happened to the skull. And when we know we have the skull,

we can look to see whether or not there are tooth marks from a predator on that skull, which will answer that question. We have recent information that a firearm was found at the same park where Laundrie visited with his family in September. Now, that would be DeSoto Park. That's where he visited his family in September. Now that would be DeSoto Park. That's where he visited his family. The gun was found there and a lot of people speculated, was it somehow connected? I don't see how that could be connected because DeSoto Park is not necessarily near where the remains

were found. But speaking of the gun, wouldn't it be to use Cheryl McCollum, if he had used that to commit suicide, it would be very near the body, although it may be underwater. Exactly. So, again, if you've got some folks that haven't been able to find the 200 bones, like the femur, then it's quite possible. 206. But I'm saying they've recovered some. So I'm saying there's some they've clearly missed. So could the gun be there? Yes. Because again, when the body comes apart and animals start to feed, those bones are going to be moved around. You've got a panther that could take an arm 50 feet, you know, so the body may not be anywhere or the bones may not be anywhere near

where the gun is they have got to go back with underwater male detectors and things of that nature and look for any type of weapon whether it's a knife or a gun or whatever he might have and to dr erin kirmalee she had just said is this right Dr. Aaron, that because of the water, the bones could be dispersed up to about 40 feet. And then with sediment, the bones could actually be buried now because of nature. Right. So when we have cases like this, we will bring an anthropology team out and actually do the excavation. The agencies that we work with, we work with Crime Scene and we'll help set up the excavation

and be there. You want people on site who know how to identify every bone and we'll actually excavate the area and take it down below ground surface because of these exact types of questions. We want to recover everything and hold on to that context because once you pick it up, your context is gone.

Right, right. Cheryl? I just wanted to jump in and clear something up for folks because I keep getting a ton of emails and text messages that say there's no way he can decompose that fast. Here's the deal. Live people in a swimming pool will start their hands and feet to shrink and shrivel in 30 minutes. That's a live person.

And in water, your body's already changing. After a month in this extreme environment, in water, with animals, you can absolutely be skeletonized very quickly. What about it, Joe Scott? Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and to Dr. Kimberly's point, yeah, in this environment, I worked in South Louisiana, Nancy, to start my career. And I can tell you, it is harsh. It goes really, really quick, particularly aquatic life that's around there. You have crayfish, you have other things such as, you know, snapping turtles. So they're going to feast on bodies in this environment. The one saving grace, though, is that you have this layer

of water that's over the top. It's not like being on dry ground. So that actually acts as a protector in this environment. So you might find something down in that silt. We'll see what happens. Dr. Aaron, Kimberly, did you just say you've seen skeletonization take place in a week? That's correct. A full skeletonization in a week? Yes. If there's access on the outside, you know, ground surface to predators and in the heat here, it can be a week. Wow.

So it is possible. We'll seemingly never know if he stayed out there, Anjanette Levy, for a period of time, say two or three days, trying to camp before he died, whether he killed himself or was killed immediately upon going out there. Is that true, Anjanette? Yeah, we may never know. You know, hopefully the forensic anthropologist examining everything right now can make some type of determination. But, you know, he didn't take the cell phone with him, so we don't have any pings to look at. My question is, my bigger question is, if the whole place is underwater, where on earth was he camping? Because I thought

the place was, you know, pretty wet when he went out there. The dad, I guess, said it was raining, you know, according to the lawyer that night on the 13th when they went out looking for him. So where on earth was he camping? And where was he putting his stuff when, you know, he was out there? The dry bags on one side of the trail, the backpack and everything else, as far as we know, is on another. So it's very strange. One other interesting point here, Nancy, is that is that they keep talking about his clothing was laying on the ground. And I can't make heads or tails of that because that's implying that he was without clothing or potentially. So that's that's another interesting that he was without clothing or potentially. So that's another interesting

piece to this. And how's the bag visible, the backpack and this clothing visible, but his body is seemingly feet away from here. How would you explain that, Dr. Kimmerle? Well, once the decomposition sets in and you have the bloating and then that recedes and the body starts to become skeletonized, you often see the bones outside of the clothing. So we even have a lot of cases where it looks like someone's pants were pulled down by their ankles. And that's just the process of decomposing and skeletonizing. So I wouldn't, without seeing pictures and seeing, again, that's why you want to process

the scene like an archaeological excavation. You want to be able to map and look at that context why you want to process the scene like a archaeological excavation you want to be able to map and look at that context and how things are associated because that would tell you a lot about whether that could be the result he was wearing the clothes or whether he was never wearing the clothes crime stories with nancy grace that makes it even more critical deal carson that we know the day he left we know the time of death because in those, if he were alive out there camping and if he had been reporting missing on the correct day, he could have been saved and justice could have unfolded in a court of law. But now that will never happen. He was a suspect in that in Gabby's death when he came back to Florida. And what that means is if you're an investigator, you go, wait a minute, he came back without her. He may be responsible. I'd better

watch that person. OK, I want to interview him. And it doesn't matter that there's no pending warrant out for him in Wyoming. It matters that you're an investigator and you're investigating a potential missing person or a death. And the way you do that is you put a tracker on the car, which is simple to do in Florida. It doesn't require a whole lot from the investigative team. And you track him and you do everything you can to interview him, even though he has an attorney. He's allowed to talk to you. You just can't talk to him. And so that should have been done early on in this case, and it was never done. Similarly, the matrix of checking that area where the body was found has never been processed properly as a doctor. And as Joe mentioned, Joseph mentioned, it's just they've stopped

investigating his cause of death because I don't think they care. Cheryl. Nancy, let me tell you the biggest thing for me. There's no camping equipment. We haven't found a tent. We hadn't found a bedroll. We hadn't found, you know, anything that he was eating. There was no camping. He went out there for one purpose and one purpose only. And we know that now. We have stated very clearly that there is no DNA match. There is no COD, cause of death, yet. But that does not preclude us getting a DNA match. Can't you get DNA, Dr. Erin Kirmley, from the root of the tooth? Or if the body is already skeletonized, does that mean you can no longer get DNA from the bones or the tooth? Not at all.

We get DNA from both teeth and bones. So it still can be done. It's just not done yet. And God willing, it will be done. But speaking of mistakes, let me put that mildly. Take a listen to Hourcut 400. This is Allison Henning, WFLA-TV. So the mix-up happened back in mid-September. This silver Mustang right here pulled up to the home. It is Brian's car, so police thought they saw him exiting the vehicle, but it turned out to be his mother in a ball cap.

Like, really? How does that happen? How do you mistaken a mother for a 23-year-old boy? It's a mix-up many people are still trying to wrap their heads around. Officials with Northport Police were unavailable for an on-camera interview today. In a statement, spokesperson Joshua Taylor told 8 On Your Side, this misidentification did not have a big impact on costs and the investigation. Other than confusion, it likely changed nothing. There was a very good possibility that Brian was already deceased. He still needed to be found. Taylor went on to say the mix-up was a direct result of a lack of cooperation from the family early on in the investigation. Well, I believe that is true.

I believe the family, Brian Laundrie's family, did not cooperate with police, and that may have led to confusion. I've got to defend the North Port Police on that point. But take a listen to Erica, 399 Wink. When the family reported him on Friday, that was certainly news to us that they had not seen him. We thought that we'd seen Brian initially come back into that home on that Wednesday. But Chris and Roberta Laundrie told investigators they hadn't seen their son since Tuesday. They later changed their statement to Monday.

Was it just someone else? I believe it was his mom who was wearing a baseball cap. They had returned from the park with that Mustang. So who does that, right? Like if you think your son's missing since Tuesday, you're going to bring his car back to the home. So it didn't make sense that anyone would do that if he wasn't there. So the individual getting out with a baseball cap we thought was Brian. And it goes on.

You're hearing right there Josh Taylor of Northport PD. Take a listen to Our Cut 401. Now, you know the family lawyer, Stephen Bertolino, is going to weigh in on the whole confusion. Take a listen to WFLA-TV, Our Cut 401. Laundry family attorney Stephen Bertolino had this to say in response. I concur with Mr. Taylor that Brian may have already been deceased when Northport PD realized that they lost track of him. However, you can't blame the family because the police didn't know enough to follow someone they were obviously surveilling.

Retired police lieutenant Randy Boyd says at that point in the investigation, police had their hands tied. Brian at that point was free to come and go. He was free to come and go as he pleased. They were doing what they thought was best and for somebody that had no charges. This is what Taylor said about the investigation just last Friday. If mistakes were made, there's human error involved with every investigation. It certainly wasn't from a lack of taking it seriously or hustle or knowledge. It was just sometimes things happen.

And Northport police tell us they released information on this mix up to help the public better understand why they thought they knew Brian was home the day before they officially before he was officially reported missing. Okay, yeah, Cheryl McCollum, he may have already been dead when they realized the screw-up, but the reality is if they had not mistaken the mother for Brian Laundrie, they would have known, I believe, earlier that he was missing.

Now, the family also played a role in that, but go ahead. That means they missed the parents leaving together, and they missed the dad returning by himself in the red truck. They missed that too. But let me be very clear with you. There is no lawyer or police officer that would keep me silent for days with my child missing. And I'm going to tell you something on the 15th, when the police come out and say, Brian is a person of interest, he won't cooperate. Bertolino and the parents should have lost their mind and said he can't, you know, cooperate if he ain't here. And we're afraid something bad's happened to him. And they didn't do that on the 15th either or the 16th or the 17th.

And that's on them. Just got Morgan way in. So, Nancy, the timeline is the most essential piece to this. Going back, looking at this and thinking, well, did the police actually screw up in this case? Well, not necessarily, because as they said, he was a person that is free to come and go as he pleased at that point in time. But this idea of confusing him with his mother is something that is very odd in this particular case. How is that mistake made moving forward in this investigation? Because they should have been aware how many eyes are on this case. Every place he went, every stop he made, there was no break in his coverage. All the killings stopped.

And that's the same thing that should have happened here. And I don't understand why an active law enforcement agency wouldn't pursue that with elective fee. There's also the issue of the notebook. Is it salvageable? All of this is in an attempt to figure out what exactly happened to Gabby Petito. Take a listen to Our Cut 407 and Regina Gonzalez live now, Fox. Brian Laundrie's notebook and backpack were also discovered in that Northport Nature Preserve last week, just a few yards away from where his remains were found.

Well, though the FBI said the area of the Myakahatchee Creek Environmental Park, where the discovery was made, had previously been underwater, investigators say the notebook could provide answers about Laundrie's final days. When asked about the condition of the notebook and whether it had any legible writing in it, Josh Taylor with Norfolk Police told Fox News Digital, quote, it appears it may be salvageable. That really is a question for the FBI, though. What, if anything, can we learn from Brian Laundrie's notebook? What is the truth of

what happened, not only to Gabby Petito, but Brian Laundrie as well? We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.