Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - "WHERE THE CRAWDADS SING" HIT MOVIE, REAL LIFE MURDER?

Episode Date: July 20, 2022

Delia Owens' "Where the Crawdad's Sing," a fictional story about a murder in North Carolina, has sold more than 12 million copies and has spent 166 weeks on The New York Times best-seller list. However, Owens is linked to another murder. The author is wanted for questioning in Zambia about a deadly shooting in Africa in the 90s. During that time, Owens and her then-husband Mark ran a Zambian conservation center protecting elephants from poachers. In 1996, they were the subject of an ABC documentary where one scene shows an alleged poacher being fatally shot. Neither the victim nor the shooter is identified. The mystery was never solved.  While Zambia authorities don't believe Delia was directly involved in the murder or the disposal of the body, authorities still want to talk to her about it.    Joining Nancy Grace today: Mark Tate, trial lawyer,  Savannah, GA,  tatelawgroup.com   Dr. Jeff Gardere - Board Certified Clinical Psychologist, Prof of Behavioral Medicine at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine  www.drjeffgardere.com, Author: 'The Causes of Autism” @drjeffgardere    Irv Brandt - Former US Marshals Service International Investigations Branch, Author: "FLYING SOLO: Top of the World" available on Amazon IrvBrandt.com, Twitter: @JackSoloAuthor   Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner State of Florida PathcareMed.com, Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine, Founder/Host: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference   Grey Stafford, Host Zoo Logic podcast. Author, and zoo/aquarium consultant.  Rebecca Rosenberg, Fox News,   author “At Any Cost”  @ReRosenberg  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How has this happened? A New York Times bestseller who's been on the bestseller list, I think, 166 consecutive weeks, has sold over 12 million copies of the book, which is now a major motion picture, where the crawdad sing is wanted for questioning in a murder. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being in a murder. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. How has this happened? First of all, take a listen to our friend Joe Fryer at the Today Show. Jumping from the page to the screen, where the Crawdads sing is a highly anticipated film based on the best-selling novel the marsh girl she killed him it's a fictional story about a murder in north carolina in the 1960s but in real life author delia owens is facing questions about a deadly shooting in africa in the 90s editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg,

first reported that Owens is wanted for questioning in the shooting. I've spoken with many leaders of the criminal investigation department of the Zambian National Police, and they are very, very eager to speak to Delia Owens. In the mid-90s, Delia and her then-husband Mark ran a conservation center in Zambia, protecting elephants from poachers. In 1996, they were the subject of an ABC documentary called Deadly Game, where one scene shows an alleged poacher being fatally shot. The victim is not identified, neither is the shooter, a mystery that was never solved. With me is an incredible panel to make sense of what we know right now, but the banner, the headline is a New York Times bestseller, an incredible author, sold over 12 million copies.

Now the movie's coming out, Where the Crawdads Sing. It's an incredible movie itself. Wanted and questioning for a murder. Rebecca Rosenberg is joining me from Fox News. She's the author of many books, but the one that really knocked me out was At Any Cost, the story of Rod Kovlin and his dead wife, Shelley Daniszewski. I think you know the rest of that story. But before I go to Rebecca,

I want to go to Grace Stafford, longtime friend and colleague, host of Zoo Logic podcast, author and zoo aquarium consultant. Gray, thank you for being with us. Gray, what's the name of your book? My book is called Zoo-mility and it's on animal training in a zoo setting and tips you can use for your own animals at home. Zoo melody. Gray, I could use that. You know, we've got, let's say one, two, three, four, four pets, two guineas rescue, cat rescue, dog rescue, the twins and my grandmother. I'm not even throwing David into that mix, but there you go. So there's a lot of breakfast going on here. Gray, the poaching scene there in Zambia was, is brutal. Brutal. Just give me a thumbnail

on that before we get started. Well, Nancy, many range countries in Africa have suffered under terrible poaching. And we're not talking about the subsistence hunter, the people who are trying to feed their families and keep their small farms going, we're talking about organized crime on a mass scale. And unfortunately, very often the rangers designated to protect these areas are underpowered. They don't have the tools they need to go out and protect these areas and protect those elephants, as you say. So the poachers often have an upper hand in wiping out entire populations of animals, particularly endangered species like African elephants. Now, when you say organized crime, so this isn't a boy and his dad sneaking onto somebody's property and shooting a couple

of birds and bringing them home or shooting a squirrel or whatever they shoot and bringing it home. Because I remember growing up, not my brother, but some boys in our neighborhood would go and hunt rabbits and squirrels on a big landowner's farm. And they would bring them home and eat them. I guess if they could get through the buckshot, that's up to them. But, you know, that's what most people think about poaching. But this is a lot different than that, Grace Stafford. I mean, people are murdered. They are murdered with knives.

They are murdered with machetes. They are murdered with guns. Poachers are killed. The teams that are there to stop the poachers are killed. And the bodies usually are never found. They're left in the jungle for the animals to eat. And they do eat. There's never evidence of the crime. Yeah, this goes on. And unfortunately, you know, the oversight of these programs is often based upon the stability and the strength of the government itself. Oh, well, there you go. You know what?

Everybody whines all the time about living in America. This is bad. That's bad. You said this. You said that. You know, in other countries, it's so horrible in so many different ways. And I found one way that affects me is the police investigations in other countries are nil. For instance, when I went with Natalie Holloway's mother just recently, Gray, you and I were

talking about this, we went to Aruba to retrace Natalie's steps and to dig up some leads. There was no 911. And when Natalie's mom went to Aruba to try to find her daughter, just dropped everything, go to Aruba and stayed for months on end, the police not only didn't help her and ignored her, they actually tried to thwart the family finding Natalie. People just don't get how lucky we are to live in this country. But before I start on that, I want you to take a listen now to our friend, Madelite Del Banco, NPR. For months, the movie's publicists have told me the author is not available to comment. So the news continues

to hang over the film like Spanish moss over a murky bayou. Taylor Swift wrote and sang on the soundtrack, saying on Instagram she wanted to create something haunting and ethereal to match this mesmerizing story. But she's faced social media backlash for her involvement in the film. In an interview, the director and star of the movie both told me they don't know anything about Delia Owens' past, though they did say she has a cameo in the film. Well, the past is certainly coming back to haunt her. Take a listen to Hour Cut 7, our friends at NPR.

It took wildlife scientist Delia Owens a decade to write Where the Crawdads Sing. It's now been on the New York Times bestseller list for 168 weeks. Here she is on CBS Sunday Morning. It holds the record for being number one for the most weeks. And this was your very first novel. First novel. Actress Reese Witherspoon loved it so much she added it to her popular book club and produced the film adaptation. It just blew me away. It felt like when I was reading To Kill a Mockingbird or just any sort

of classic southern literature. She layers on this thriller element. There's a murder. And murder, a real-life murder in the mid-1990s, is the big elephant in the room. With the film's release, news has resurfaced that Owens is still wanted for questioning by Zambian authorities as a possible witness, co-conspirator, and accessory to federal crimes. Joining me right now from Fox News, the author of many books, including At Any Cost, which was great, Rebecca Rosenberg. Rebecca, thank you so much for being with us. I mean, where the crawdads sing, incredible, incredible book. I know why it's been on the New York Times bestseller list for so long. And that's really hard to get on the list and stay on, much less stay on it, much less stay on it for 168 consecutive weeks. Have it turned into a movie.

And now this comes out. I guess all the fanfare surrounding where the crawdad sing has brought out allegations and claims regarding the murder. What happened with the murder, Rebecca? So back in the 90s, Delia and her then-husband, Mark Owen, were involved in conservation efforts in Southern Africa, including Zambia. And ABC did a documentary, like a TV documentary on this, and went and sent out a crew to sort of follow them around. It was about the couple and their efforts.

And they ended up in this remote location. And it turned out, this came out later, but it turned out, it appeared that the stepson shot an alleged poacher, just opened fire on him and killed him. And then his father helped cover this up, took the body and dumped it in the ocean, put it in this helicopter, dumped it in the ocean. And so police believe that, or Zambian officials believe that the couple may have been involved in a cover-up or an accessory. And it wasn't just that. They had this very aggressive approach to conservation. The husband had like a team of 60 scouts under him that would resort to violence in their anti-coaching efforts. So they think they may have committed other crimes as well involved in those anti-poaching efforts. So they think they may have committed other crimes as well involved in those anti-poaching efforts.

I know that when the author, Delia Owens, and her husband and son left, the group that came in to take up monitoring and fighting the poachers had to convince the men, their team, their squad, to stop saluting. And apparently they were all armed with multiple weapons. And this poacher, whoever he may be, has never been found. Take a listen to our friend Jim Moray at Inside Edition. Nigel Smith is movies editor of People, which has also covered the story. Shortly after the killing, Delia and her ex-husband moved away from Africa to Idaho,

a very remote part of Idaho, and basically kind of fled the scene, if you will. So you have to come to my horse park. Reese Witherspoon fell in love with Owen's novel and produced the movie. The murder investigation was dormant for decades, but the success of the book, and now the movie, have put a spotlight on the case. I don't think this is the last we're going to be hearing from this because Delia Owens is in the spotlight in such a huge way. Right now, we don't have any evidence. One way or the other what happened when you have a whole team or a squad of people that are all armed to the hilt and someone allegedly gets shot their body disposed

of who did what in the middle of a jungle is she and her family being targeted because they're famous now or did this really happen crime stories with nancy grace let me go to mark tate joining me high profile lawyerprofile lawyer out of Savannah, Georgia, with the Tate Law Group. Mark Tate, now, we both know the law that at least in your jurisdiction, a judge will no longer charge the jury at the end of the case on flight when you leave the scene of the crime, suggesting that that indicates guilt. However, the prosecutor can argue it. Let me just throw out an easy example. Scott Peterson. I mean, really, he's an example for so many things. But there he is with his hair dyed, bleach blonde,

with his brother's ID, $10,000 cash, camping supplies, water filters, and of course, a lot of Viagra. So he's on the run. What does that indicate? Maybe nothing to you, Mark Tate, but to a jury, it means he was fleeing the crime and didn't want to get caught. And that is what is going to be argued here with Delia Owens and her husband and her stepson. Well, she's wanted for questioning and apparently so is her stepson. However, as you well know, Nancy Ann, you don't have to answer police questions. You have a right, at least in the United States, for protection from that under the Fifth Amendment. So she doesn't have to answer anything. You don't have to help the police in their investigation. You can't lie to them because then you're obstructing, but you don't have to answer the questions. Also, I think there's a massive concern about Zambian investigatory and prosecutorial tactics. the country, as well as internationally, they participate in the lower court level in what

they call trial by ambush. And you don't have the right to discovery as you do in the United States criminal justice system, both federal and states. Instead, the prosecutors can hold everything back and spring it on you at trial, forcing your defense lawyer then to claim a continuance or request a continuance. Can I just respond to you? Absolutely. Okay. I'm asking you about a dead guy whose body is thrown in the ocean.

And you're telling me about what a bad time defense attorneys have in Zambia in court because the prosecutor springs evidence on them. Okay. Number one, you're putting the cart before the horse. So can we get the spotlight off an imaginary defense attorney at an imaginary trial in Zambia? And focus on the fact that you're not in Kansas anymore. Of course, all the constitutional protections we have do not apply in Zambia. And I think you got on that tangent correctly when you were talking about here in the U.S. anyway, you don't have to cooperate with police

when you are a target, when you are a suspect or a person of interest, when you're a witness and you are summoned to come in and testify in court and you don't, you can sit your booty in jail until suddenly you decide to talk. You can enjoy three hots and a cot until it's time for you to testify. So if they think it's the stepson, don't know if it is or isn't, but if they think the stepson fired the shot, he and our country wouldn't have to come in and cooperate. But the mother, the stepmother, the author and her husband do. Because correct me if I'm wrong or somehow the law has changed in the last couple of weeks.

But there is no father, son or mother, stepson privilege such as attorney, client or priest, parishioner or husband, wife. Right. Correct. I think that's right. Sure. So you darn tootin' they're going to have to cooperate. I don't know what happens in Zambia, United States. I don't either. Of course, if that was an American citizen who was killed, obviously she can be tried in the United States. First of all, she's not going to be tried because nobody's alleging that she pulled the trigger.

It's the stepson, Tate. Well, we don't know. Okay. Can you stop saying we don't know? Yeah. Because let's just do a blanket mark, Tate. And I know it helps your argument to keep saying, I don't know. I don't know either. Does anybody on this panel know what happened? Because if you do, Jackie, Sidney, no, nobody knows. So that's a given. Well can tell you i saw the video okay tell me yes there are i saw the video there were a number of people chasing a poacher exactly what they say is a poacher and a number of shots are fired into into the into what appears to be a a human that's no longer moving or no longer alive yep no faces are seen are seen. Mark Tate, I've got to say, you're absolutely correct on that. Guys, there's video.

Take a listen to our friends at The New Yorker. This is Jeffrey Goldberg. My name is Jeffrey Goldberg, and I've written an article in this week's New Yorker about the activities of a pair of American conservationists, Mark and Delia Owens, who went to study hyenas and lions and other large mammals, but got caught up in what could be best described as the poaching wars. When Mark and Delia Owens got to the North Palongo National Park, the poachers were decimating the park's elephant population, and they found virtually no law enforcement presence at all.

They found scouts assigned to the park who were bedraggled and essentially unarmed. They raised money and bought uniforms and food and weapons to take these newly trained scouts into the bush, bringing the fight to the poachers. You know, I want to hear more from Jeff Goldberg, but I want to bring it home to Gray Stafford joining me, the host of Zoologic podcast. He's awesome. I met you first many, many years ago at the Wildlife World Natural Zoo. And you were the resident expert in the white tiger that I still have a photo of up right now. I'll never forget it. Gray Stafford joining me, he's an author of Zumility and he is a renowned consultant regarding zoos and aquariums. Gray, I can't stress it enough how violent the poaching scene in Zambia is. We're talking about poaching protected animals.

We're talking about killing elephants, mommy and baby elephants, to saw off their tusks for the ivory. We're talking about, you tell me, you're the expert, I'm just a lawyer. I mean, it's brutal and it's a high stakes money enterprise organized crime. Is there in the jungle murdering these animals, taking their carcasses taking whatever they can it's it's a bloodbath in the jungle it can be and has been historically in a lot of these countries uh you know like anything the poaching crisis waxes and wanes uh but when it's bad it's really bad and uh as as your setup piece uh mentioned many times the people charged with protecting these areas and the animals that live in them are under equipped and poorly trained.

Now, that's changing over the time, you know, since the 90s. But it's still a very, very serious problem because the gangs themselves, the syndicates are even more savvy than they used to be. They have technology. They've got money. And so it is a serious problem that hasn't gone away completely at all. I mean, how much are they making if you kill, if you murder one elephant and saw its tusks off? How much could they make off that, Gray Stafford? Depending on the size, you know, tens of thousands of dollars. Obviously, the value of ivory changes and there have been steps to try to reduce the

value of ivory. China and others have tried to clamp down on legal ivory trade, much less illegal ivory trade. But it's still, you know, rhino horn is worth more than gold per ounce. Rhinos are often poached for their horns, even though it's just fingernail material. So it continues to be a very serious problem. Whoa, whoa, whoa, look. I've only got a JD. You're the zoology expert. You're saying a rhino's horn is only fingernail material, I believe is what you said.

Explain. Well, a lot of people think at different parts of the world that it's got medicinal uses. You mean for impotency? Yeah. Put it out there. Why do men, they're afraid to say impotent. Just put it out there, Gray. Speaking as a man, it's one of those words that makes me kind of squirrely.

Sorry. But people are actually murdering rhinos to get their horn, which is made out of fingernail or hair type molecules correct yes keratin basically your fingernail material it's the same so there is no medicinal purpose there is no magical value to it and yet these animals are hunted uh severely in fact rhinos are poached more severely by percentage than even elephants are for their ivory. So it's a very serious problem. Obviously, people are poaching for food sources. Oh, please stop.

You want to tell me the syndicate crime lords are poaching in Zambia because they need the meat of a white tiger or a rhino? Really? Did you just say that? For some animals, smaller animals um the entire force are being cleared out and and the protein is sent to market yes it's not just for ivory to dr jeff gardier board certified clinical psychologist professor behavioral medicine at turo and author of the causes of autism and many other books you can find him at drjeffgardier.com. When you're out there surviving in the jungle,

do you get some type of a mentality where laws don't apply to you, you're surviving, and you'll do anything it takes to do that. Yeah, I think we see that at both sides of this argument. Whomever this poacher was, you know, certainly, yes, you're right, Nancy, that the syndicates are involved in much of this poaching. Your previous guest, I believe, is also correct that there are people who will, you know, also had with regard to we're out here to save the animals. We're fighting against the poachers and we will do whatever is necessary because in this country, the laws are not the same as they are in the United States. And we have to do things our way. And it comes with a view of being paternalistic to Africans

in a way that can be easily viewed as being racist. Okay, I was talking about, and I agree with everything you just said, number one, but when you get out there in the thick of it, and you're in the jungle, and you're away from what we consider to be civilization can you get the mentality that the laws back home specifically about murder do not apply to you well perhaps at the moment when that is happening when people are in the middle of their emotions and they feel that they, you know, perhaps are doing the right thing by saving the animals and that the poachers are the enemy. But as we know, in our great country, you know, people are treated equally and you do have

to follow laws. And that is an important part of our legal system. I was just going to throw it at you, Dr. Jeff Gardier. You could argue that about a bar fight where a guy thinks he's been insulted or somebody makes a pass at his wife. He takes a gun and shoots the guy. But you could argue, wow, I was protecting my wife, when that's absolutely a violation. That is absolutely a homicide that will be prosecuted.

And in this case, if this occurred and you're saying I was protecting the animals, that's not going to fly in a U.S. court anyway. Guys, take a listen to, again, our friend Jeff Goldberg at The New Yorker. Mark and Delia Owens got a lot of attention for their work. They had an ABC crew come out to Zambia and spend a month with them. Okay, you find that route, you backtrack it into the hills, and you set up an ambush there, huh? In the course of filming, the ABC crew filmed the shooting of an alleged poacher, a suspected poacher. And the circumstances of this shooting, which was shown nationally on ABC in 1996, are the center point of this article.

On this mission, we would witness the ultimate price paid by a suspected poacher. Early in the morning, a scout discovers an abandoned campsite. Lying on the ground are shotgun shells. So the scout decides to wait an ambush our cameras begin rolling again after a shot is fired at the returning trespasser so there's video erb brand joining me former u.s marshal service international investigations branch author of flying solo, Top of the World on Amazon. You can find him at IrvBrant.com. Irv, I want you to listen to one more thing. Take a listen to our friends at NPR. She and her then-husband Mark were living in Zambia as animal

conservationists trying to save elephants from poachers. Journalist Jeffrey Goldberg first wrote about this for The New Yorker in 2010, and more recently, The Atlantic Magazine, where he's now editor-in-chief. His reporting suggests the Owens set up a brutal operation to go after anyone who was a threat to the Elephant Reserve. In fact, an ABC News crew documenting the Owens' work in 1995 actually captured the execution of a suspected poacher. Here's a clip with gunshots from the show Turning Point. The bodies of the poachers are often left where they fall for the animals to eat. Conservation. Morality. Africa.

The shooter of the unidentified man was never seen on camera. A body was never found and no one has been formally charged with the crime. Some witnesses reportedly implicated Mark Owens and his son Christopher, according to Jeffrey Goldberg, but the journalist says their attorneys have issued statements of denial in the killing. To Rebecca Rosenberg, Fox News and author of At Any Cost, Rebecca, are those facts correct as you understand them? There are people that state the stepson was the shooter? Yes. So I think that the most, like the strongest corroboration comes from the ABC cameraman, Chris Everson, who spoke to Jeffrey Goldberg and said he witnessed the killing and that the stepson opened fire on this alleged poacher and then continued to shoot him when he was down on the ground and still alive.

And there were just three of them there at that point. And this is also the conclusion of the Zambian government. After they launched an investigation and they issued a report, this is what they concluded that they believed happened. That he was the shooter and that his father helped dispose of the body by putting it in a helicopter and dumping it in the ocean. And I just want to add, this is so unusual for there to be a literal snuff film televised on American television. It's just so unusual. I don't think I've ever seen that. And it was just a very odd decision for them to make. I'm curious, Rebecca Rosenberg, I keep hearing the phrase ambush. Are you telling me that the Owens and their squad waited in ambush, lie in wait for the poachers to come back to camp and then open fire?

Yeah, so this is like a big part of it that's so crazy is that I think you, these guys are in a game park, not a game park, a national park. They're in the wilderness that's 2,400 acres in the middle of nowhere. And it's like the basic rules seem to not apply to them. They were going out there without the government's permission with armed people that they were paying that are going out to hunt alleged poachers. And there's no due process here. They are just beating up people that they suspect are poachers.

They don't know if they're poachers. So in this instance, they're at a campsite and they suspected the poacher and they just opened fire on him. But it was never confirmed that this was a poacher. It was never confirmed what he was. It was just a suspected poacher and they just opened fire on him but it was never confirmed that this was a poacher it was never confirmed you know what he was it was just a suspected poacher crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now to Irv Brandt, as I mentioned earlier, former U.S. Marshal Service International Investigations branch and author of Flying Solo, Top of the World on Amazon. Irv Brandt, it's my understanding we do not have an extradition treaty with Zambia.

So they can want the Owens all they can, but they're not going to get them under an extradition treaty. What do you make of this? Is there any evidence left? I mean, this happened a while back. No missing persons report has been filed regarding whoever was shot. I don't know if he was even from Zambia. So, Irv Brandt, what do you make of it? Well, Nancy, we do have an extradition treaty with Zambia. It was ratified in 1935 with the United Kingdom, and then it was kept in place when Zambia got its independence in 1964. That's pretty common with our extradition treaties with former British colonies.

For example, Hong Kong. We have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, but it's from the British treaty that they just left in place. So in theory, Owens could be extradited, but to gain extradition, it would have to be compelling evidence against someone. And like you said, you didn't identify the victim. You don't have a body. You don't have any physical evidence. So the chances of gaining extradition are basically non-existent. Well, you know, you're right about the evidence. Take a listen to our cut for our friends at The New Yorker. ABC never tells us if they investigated who this alleged poacher was, if they ever learned his name or what village he came

from, or whether he was in fact a poacher at all. When this film was screened in Zambia, it caused a bit of an uproar. What happened was a film that was designed to bring credit to their work instead opened up some questions. The American embassy told them that it wouldn't be safe for them to come back given the investigation, the equipment and the buildings of their project in the park were seized by the government and the work did continue, but it continued without the Owens's.

They never came back. So there goes all the evidence. To Dr. Tim Gallagher, who's been waiting patiently, medical examiner for the state of Florida. You can find him at PathCareMed.com, lecturer at Florida Medical School of Forensic Medicine. He is the founder and host, this is incredible, of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Dr. Gallagher, if the facts are as presented, there is no body. The body was dumped in the ocean very methodically. At the time, there may have been blood evidence. I don't know that the DNA protocols are in place in Zambia, but if you have blood evidence and you have witnesses, that makes a case. If you had blood evidence, what could you do with it

without knowing who the victim is? There's nothing to compare it to. Well, we do have precedence for that here in Florida. The Toledo case was just that, that there was no body found, but there was blood evidence, and the pattern of the blood that was found suggested homicidal violence. Oh, right. Okay.

Talk regular people talk. You know what you just made me think of? Jennifer Dulos, the missing Connecticut, missing, she's dead, Connecticut mom of five. So much blood was found in her home. In fact, you and I talked about, I don't know if you remember, that she has to be dead. Her body's somewhere with that amount of blood evidence. And you're saying, well, you say it, you tell me, how can the blood evidence show there was absolutely a death? Well, if you look at the pattern of the blood, if you see the amount of the blood,

and they can enhance it with different chemicals such as luminol, and you can see see the amount of the blood and they can enhance it with different chemicals such as Luminol and you can see that the amount of blood that is on the ground you can often see blood that is on the walls of the building you could sometimes even find blood on the furniture and Just by looking at the pattern just by looking at the amount of blood where it is There might be a cast off type of blood, where it is, there might be a cast-off type of blood from impact of a blunt instrument, or different patterns would strongly suggest that the person died a very violent death, and that a person who lost this amount of blood in no way could have survived that assault. Is there any way at this point, Dr. Tim Gallagher,

that blood, I mean, years have passed, rains, erosion, there's no way that I know of we could get any blood evidence. Bullets, however, that's a totally different thing. But what about blood? Well, that would be very difficult. You know, it does degrade over time. One of the most important molecules in blood is iron. And iron does oxidize or rust, let's say, or degrade quite quickly in the elements. You know, so that would be unretrievable. You can test for iron and then suggest that it could have been,

that the source of the iron could have been blood, but for DNA to survive the elements in the open like that over years of time, especially in an environment such as Africa, would be very, very remote, to say the least. Irv Brandt, joining me, author of Flying Solo. Irv, what about bullets or shells? I guarantee you, if this happened, they did not stick around and pick up the ballistics evidence.

Oh, that's correct, Nancy. I mean, this alleged murder took place three decades ago. I mean, there was no crime scene where police responded, evidence technicians responded to gather information, to gather evidence, things like shell casings and bullets. So they have nonexistence.

Yep, you're right. Now, Delia Owens, the author of Where the Crawdads Sing, the bestseller, the hit movie, she has a very different story about what happened. Take a listen to Hour Cut 12. This is Delia Owens on Upon Reflection UWTV. One morning we were watching these elephants across the river from our camp and the poachers started shooting at them, you know, just in full view of our camp. And we were just outraged. So we knew we couldn't trust the game guard. So

Mark took off in our airplane and flew that night. And he took one of our trusted BIMBA workers with him. And he had the shotgun filled with shells. But these were not normal shotgun shells. They were filled with firecrackers. Cherry bombs. Cherry bombs. And Mark flew down, zoomed down just over the poachers' camp and fired on the poachers with these cherry bombs.

They were harmless, but the poachers didn't know this, of course. And they just make this huge explosion. And he flew after those poachers, and then every single night, in the middle of the night, he would fly and bomb these poachers' camps with cherry bombs. And this really frightened them out of the park. Maybe I'm missing something but Rebecca Rosenberg that sounds like an entirely different incident than what we're talking about the shooting the alleged shooting. Yeah I mean this is just part of their operations they they sort of almost went to war with the alleged poachers and would do things like this and there's some I think Jeffrey Goldbergberg says that there's some debate on whether that was just cherry bombs or whether they were firing live ammunition.

But they would, they were almost like in combat with these poachers. Both, you know, they said they feared that the poachers were trying to kill them and that they, you know, that they definitely were armed and wanted them to think that they were a threat to the poachers. I mean, that sounds like a completely different incident. Mark Tate with me, high profile lawyer out of Savannah. Mark, that sounds like what she Delia said could absolutely be true, that her husband would fly over the poachers camp and fire cherry bombs to scare them. That sounds like a whole different incident as opposed to lying in wait at a poacher's camp or a person's camp. I don't know that they were poachers. And when they show up, they start shooting, including after the person's down on the ground. Sure. It's a completely different scenario that she has outlined in that very

exciting story. You know, that's exciting that Mark's flying an airplane, shooting cherry bombs out of a shotgun. I don't know exactly how you load cherry bombs in a shotgun shell. Apparently, Mark Owens is a heck of a ballistics guy. But anyway, they were throwing cherry bombs at poachers. That's cool. That doesn't have a thing on earth to do with what ABC, yeah, with what ABC showed on television. You know, there is no doubt they showed a man being shot to death on TV and

the shots continued after he was apparently not moving on the ground. So, you know, what we don't know is what happened immediately prior to that. Did he brandish a firearm? And so they're going to say they were using deadly force in response to deadly force. I don't know. So, you know, there are reasons why you can kill somebody. One of them is if they brandish firearms and using deadly force against you. They didn't bother to tell us that.

ABC didn't investigate. Well, it's on video. So Rebecca Rosenberg, Fox News and author, you hear Tate's theory that the video is so chaotic. But what do you see on the video from ABC? I mean, I think it shows a man being essentially murdered. You know, and I don't think and I think you have a witness who sort of explains what happens in the video. He's there and he works for ABC.

And what I also find really interesting is nobody ever reported this. Like ABC didn't report it to the government. Nobody reported this to anyone, which is also just so strange to me. And one thing that we didn't touch upon here is that Chris Everson, the stepson, had kind of a troubled history. And he, you know, he was assigned, according to Jeffrey Goldberg, to train the scouts in, you know, in like, hand to hand combat. And he was just a 25 year old kid from the US. And there were claims that he would beat scouts to discipline them.

So you have kind of this slightly unusual backstory with him who's accused of being a shooter here. Delia Owens, the bestseller, Mark Owens, her ex-husband,

and stepson, Christopher Owens, her ex-husband, and stepson Christopher Owens all deny involvement in the incident. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Carpenter signing off. Goodbye. This is an iHeart Podcast.