Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - WHO RAPED &MURDERED 3 GIRLS SCOUTS AT CAMP?

Episode Date: October 13, 2022

After Gene Hart is charged but acquitted in the murder of three little girls, the question of his guilt or innocence is still debated. Today, in the fourth installment of "The Girl Scout Murders,"  Hart's family weighs in. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Herb Weaver - Sheriff Weaver’s son Meg Baker - Great Niece of Murder Suspect Gene Hart, M.S. in Clinical Psychology, Ph.D. Graduate Student at Oklahoma State University, Grief Outreach Intern at University Counseling Services, TikTok: @movie_meditations, Twitter/Instagram: @Movie_meditate Kimberly Baker - Niece of Murder Suspect Gene Hart, Cherokee artist and historic preservationist, KimBakerArtwork.com, Instagram: @kimbakerartwork Carla Wilhite - Former Camp Scott Counselor Nathan E. Clark - Partner, Rhodes Hieronymus (Tulsa, OK), rhodesokla.com Dr. Scott A. Johnson - Forensic Psychologist, 32 years specializing in addressing sexual predators, Author: "When “I Love You” Turns Violent" and "Physical Abusers & Sexual Offenders", ForensicConsultation.org Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" Faith Phillips - Cherokee Screenwriter, Author: “Now I Lay Me Down”, Website: ReadBooksBy.Faith, Twitter: @phillips_faith, Facebook: “Faith Phillips” See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Summer camp, the great outdoors, swimming in the lake, campfire cooking, late nights with flashlights and tents, friends old and new. But three little girls were robbed of that and so much more. Three girls, just eight, nine, and ten, strangled dead, dumped in sleeping bags. Their lives cut short by a real life monster or monsters. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. We follow the exclusive new Fox Nation series, The Girl Scout Murders, all week on Crime Stories. Take a listen to this. These woods in northeastern Oklahoma are the site of one of the worst crimes imaginable. Two busloads of Girl Scouts left Tulsa headed for Camp Scott, a Girl Scout retreat located on the Cherokee Reservation some 50 miles away. Among the girls were 10-year-old Michelle Gouzet and 8-year-old Lori Farmer

what happened next is unthinkable three young girls beaten, sexually assaulted murdered there are children's names you always remember Lori and Denise and Michelle they're there.

And they're never going to go away. Joining me right now, Sheriff Weaver's son, Herb Weaver. Herb, thank you so much for being with us. You were actually at the crime scene. Correct. What, if anything, did you observe? The morning after that happened, I just happened to be at a gas station getting some coffee and one of my dad's deputies pulled in to fuel up and he said there was

something going on down at the Girl Scout camp. My dad had summoned all of them to come down there. He did not know what was going on. So I just jumped in his cruiser with him and went down there and came upon those little girls. And to the best of my memory, when I got there, there was probably 16, 18 people there.

My dad's deputies, my dad, OHP was there. OSBI had not showed up yet, but we were visiting yesterday about a strange footprint that didn't match Mr. Hart's and I can see very well how that could have happened because it was pretty chaotic as you can well imagine. It's something I wish I never would have been involved in. Why do you say that, Herb? Well, just because. Just the scene itself, Nancy. That's something I don't want anybody to ever have to see.

What did you see? Well, three little girls murdered. I just, it's just senseless. Were the bodies dragged out of the tent? They were outside the tent. My recollection is they were in three separate locations. But Faith told me that they were all three together. But it's been, what, 45 years ago, so.

When you say they were outside of the tent, were they in their sleeping bags? Yes. Sounds like someone dragged them all to the general same location to get rid of the bodies, which would be unusual if someone were simply on foot. How can you get rid of three bodies if you're on foot? Right. As opposed to a vehicle.

When you say the scene was chaotic, Herb Weaver, what do you mean by that? Well, there was several people around. I mean, this is something that you don't, when you get up and go to work in the morning, you don't expect to see a scene like this. So, I mean, how do you prepare yourself for something like that? I don't think that you do or that you can. When you say you would not wish that sight on anyone, it's, I'm trying to take in three little girls dead in their sleeping bags,

dragged out of the tent. Where exactly were they? From memory, Nancy, it seems to me like they were probably, I'm going to say 30 yards away from the tent. Wow. When you looked at the girls, were they obviously dead? Or did they look like they were sleeping? No, they were dead.

How did you know instinctively that they were dead? Well, number one, they weren't breathing. So you would assume they were dead. Were they in odd positions they wouldn't be in if they were alive? Yes. It was a terrible scene. Did the girls' families know yet? You know, Nancy, I cannot answer that.

I wouldn't want that job, Herb. No, ma'am. I want to say when I got there, it was probably around 8 o'clock, something of that nature, 7.30 or 8. In the morning? Yes, ma'am. So the girls had not been dead for very long. In fact, it's my understanding when they were first discovered, at least one of their bodies was still warm. I can't answer that.

I don't know about that. How has this haunted you over these years, Herb? Well, I've got, at the time, I had one little girl. I think Danielle was two or three. So it, because of those events, it changed our lives, the way we raised our kids. You know, crime has changed my life, too, the way I raised my twins. And you know, Herb Weaver, when they went to scout camp for the first time, I went, too, and made my husband go. We went through weeks of training to be volunteers because of this case.

I just couldn't let them go. Guys, with me is Sheriff Weaver's son, Herb, who went to this crime scene, seeing the girl's body still there just a couple of hours after they were all three raped and murdered. Today, two unlikely sources confess long-kept family secrets. It begins when Faith Phillips gets a call from Kimberly Baker, the niece of suspect Gene Hart. He was charged and then acquitted of all three child rapes and murders. Take a listen to this. As far as we knew, Sheriff Weaver had railroaded the investigation, had planted evidence, had done all these things to win the case against Gene. For whatever reason, I don't know.

As I started to learn a lot more about him, I learned that Gene wasn't this football star, angel personality that I had been taught. The narrative that I was given about him was not correct. He was a dangerous individual. He was somebody, according to close family members, who they did not trust. They were scared of him. That information that I had from my family growing up and then seeing the new pieces of the puzzles I got to put together,

I realized that they were right to be fearful. They were right to look at this person as a dangerous individual because things that he had done, had confessed to, had been convicted of. Tell the story of somebody who was able to control and make fearful his siblings and his family. You are hearing the voice of Kimberly Baker. Kimberly Baker is the niece of Jean Hart. Now, curious to you, Herb Weaver, when you hear claims that Sheriff Weaver had railroaded Gene Hart and even planted evidence, do you believe that? No, not at all. I don't believe that. I know that this whole case completely consumed my father, as it should have.

But I was raised by an honest man, and in my opinion, there was no planted evidence. I'll tell you how consumed he was when they captured Mr. Hart. I asked one of the OSBI agents who has since passed, I said, why didn't you call my dad to go with you to apprehend me? And he told me, he said, because we knew that he would kill Gene Hart, which should tell you how consumed he was by the whole affair. I hear you. It took me a while prosecuting violent felonies day in, day out, until I got to the point

where I understood why law enforcement would just as soon kill the defendant that could do something like this, and there's always a chance the defendant will get out and strike again

on another little eight-year-old girl. I'm not condoning it. I just understand it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. And joining me right now, two very special guests. You heard the voice of Jean Hart's niece, Kimberly Baker. She is joining us.

And you can find her at kimbakerartwork.com and on Insta, along with Meg Baker, the great niece of Jean Hart. She is a grad student of Oklahoma State University and a grief outreach worker at University Counseling Services. To both of the Baker guests, welcome. Kimberly, what did you mean by Sheriff Weaver's direction of those institutions, and that he had a sort of vendetta against Hart. And that was a likely, you know, thing that, well, they planted evidence.

Okay, so do you know of any evidence that was planted? You said implied rumors. Yes, there were implied rumors. There were rumors that there was a glove found at the crime scene that was owned by my uncle Gene, and that that was planted there at the scene. Okay, hold on. Let's address that. Faith Phillips joining me, Cherokee screenwriter and author of Now I Lay Me Down, who really reignited the Girl Scout murders case. Faith, was there a glove at the scene? The answer to that specific question is no, but there's a lot of other information.

Okay, a lot of other information. Okay, let's just take it one by one. So, Kimberly Baker, you state, and this is Jean Hart's niece. Mm-hmm. Yes. Suspect in the murders, tried and acquitted. You say rumors, evidence was planted, and that it was implied. So, there was no glove at the crime scene. So, that wasn't planted. Is there any other item that you can think of, recall, remember that you believe was planted? No, unfortunately, no.

Oh, so the whole thing about planting evidence being a glove, that's not true. Okay. Maybe Meg knows something about this. Meg Baker, thank you for being with us. It's been stated that Sheriff Weaver planted evidence. What evidence could that be other than the glove, which doesn't exist? So from what I recall from reading several books and watching a lot of true crime documentaries and you know just some information of that like implied rumors um i do recall there being like a compact like a

mirror and something some kind of shaving thing um that being like rumored to have been planted right a a mirror i'm not sure if it was like a mirror or like a compact mirror or like some glasses as well. Okay. Let's address that. And my mind is completely open. I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't have any skin in the game. I just want to know the truth. Okay. Faith Phillips. So what can you tell me about the mirror and the contacts or glasses? OK, so here's the situation with the mirror and the corncob pipe. Both of those items were in a trunk with one of the campers at the scene. So then we have the OSBI apprehending Gene Hart at the pigeon house after he'd been on the run for nine months. And at that time, they executed a search,

and they didn't produce anything that they felt tied Gene Hart to the scene at the pigeon house. Then, months later, they go back and execute a second search for the pigeon house, and in that house, they find a corncob pipe and a mirror. So this is extremely complicated, Nancy Grace. Well, let me ask you a question right off the bat. I'm talking about the crime scene. Yes. Evidence planted at the crime scene. You're referring to a pipe that was found at the pigeon house

where Hart was ultimately apprehended. So that's not the crime scene. That's right. The reason why, at the crime scene, we also have photographs, these two photographs that are at the cave. And there's testimony in the prelims later that says that those photographs had been seen in the sheriff's office after Gene Hart had escaped from prison. So these are the things that have never been explained okay wait a minute wait a minute i'm asking you about evidence planted at the crime scene absolutely no evidence planted at the crime scene okay that was okay just so you know i'm a lawyer i'm a jd not a dds i don't know how to pull teeth. So we're right now dealing with the accusation against Sheriff Weaver that evidence was planted by him at the Girl Scout murder crime scene.

That would be around the tent and where the bodies were found. Let me just throw it out there. Does anybody on this panel know of evidence planted at the crime scene by Sheriff Weaver or anyone else? Not me. Not me. Okay. Good. Good to know.

So now, Faith, you're telling us about other evidence, photos that were found in Sheriff Weaver's office of the cave slash root cellar where Jean Hart was hiding out. Is that correct? That's correct. There's later there's testimony in the prelims that say that those photographs were seen in the sheriff's desk. And what would be wrong with that? He's investigating the case. Why wouldn't there be crime photos of where the perp was apprehended, the alleged perp? If this is true, this testimony that those photographs were in the sheriff's desk, then that would indicate that Gene Hart would have had to have broken back into the sheriff's office to get those photographs to put them in the cave that's

used to tie him to the crime scene. Where were the photos allegedly found to start with? After the murders, the photographs are found in this root cellar that everybody refers to as a cave. And why would those not have been in the sheriff's office to start with after the search? The allegation, the testimony indicates, okay, so this testimony is from an employee of Sheriff Weaver. And he says that he saw those photographs in the sheriff's desk after Gene Hart had escaped from prison. Right.

You understand? So the photographs are found at this cave in this root cellar. So if that testimony is true, that the photographs were in the sheriff's desk, then Gene Hart would have had to break back into the sheriff's office get those photos and take them to the cave interesting interesting accusation guys i want you to hear more take a listen throughout my life there were occasional discussions amongst the adults that i would overhear i recognized a name from the list of names that the youth shared with me as being a member of a family that we were close with

in our neighborhood. I had interactions with this person as a child. I knew this person. And it was also a person that another member of my family had made a statement about at some point in my life as being and having some involvement or knowing something. And then as I got older, a family member that I trust shared that name with me as being involved in a private conversation that we had, as well as two other names, which are the list.

You're hearing Kimberly Baker describing conversations she would hear as she was growing up about other potential suspects. Who are they, Kimberly? I don't feel very comfortable naming those names since they never came up as far as i understand in an official capacity okay wait a minute so you are telling me you think that there are other suspects that murdered and raped three little girls but you won't give the names uh not um in an unofficial capacity okay well hold on maybe fate phillips is familiar with what you're saying what about it faith well this Well, this has been the issue consistently is that we want, if there are suspects who are associated with the case, we would like for them to have a fair trial.

Of course, we want to exhaust all leads and there is an active investigation at this time. And so we don't want to repeat what happened in 1979 when that trial happened. We want a fair trial as guaranteed by the Constitution. My question to you, Faith, is do you know who she's talking about? Yes, I absolutely know exactly. I'm very familiar with these names. I've been hearing them over and over again for the last two years. Are they being, I mean, are you sharing them with us or are we going to all still be in the dark about who may have murdered three little girls and raped them too? I'm happy to tell you the name of Buddy Bristol.

We've already talked about that and he apparently confessed. That's right. And there's. Next. I'm not going to, I think I would undermine the investigation at this point, which is active if I named these people in public. Okay, Nathan Clark joining me, a high-profile lawyer out of Tulsa. You can find him at RhodesOakla.com with Rhodes Hieronymus. Nathan, this is exactly why the law is constructed after hundreds of years of jurisprudence that if the defense has a particular alternate theory,

like if there's another suspect, they don't think their client did it. They are not allowed to just throw things out in court. I heard when I was growing up, somebody did it, but I can't tell you the name. I don't know anything else about it. That cannot come into court. A phantom cannot be brought in as a defense. There has to be a name like Buddy Bristol is a very strong suspect, I think. But as long as people won't give names, I mean, that's why that type of speculation is not allowed in court. Well, Nancy, I think that there's a fascinating component to all this that involves a change in the investigation.

Yes. For all these years, we've had the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation with having primary investigative jurisdiction. Right. With a recent U.S. Supreme Court case, McGirt v. Oklahoma, that investigation has shifted as to the native suspects to the Cherokee Marshals and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. That shift is leading to new outcomes. That shift is leading to new information that's currently actively being investigated. And I think that's what's trying to be protected is to give that process a real chance to proceed even after all these years. And after this new process is in place, has anybody come forward with another name? I know there are other people who are actively being investigated by the investigative department.

Faith, was that you? Yes, there are four names that have come up in the investigation, and all four have been turned over to the authorities in a current active investigation. And so I feel like it's my duty to make sure that I don't interfere with that investigation in any way. So there are four names. Kimberly Baker and Meg Baker may be right that someone else was involved. I don't have any reason to believe that Sheriff Weaver planted evidence,

but those two are not mutually exclusive. They can both be true. Sheriff Weaver may not have planted evidence because there's nothing to suggest that he did. And Gene Hart could be innocent. So both of those things can be true at the same time. for Sheriff Weaver to have planted evidence is that he was in charge of the prisons or jails from which Hart escaped. Is that true, Faith? Was he in charge of the jail? Yes, Sheriff Weaver was running the prison at that time. Wait, the prison or the county jail? Sheriff Weaver was operating the county jail in Mays County. At the time, Gene Hart escaped twice.

Herb, did Hart escape from the county jail or the penitentiary? County jail. He was brought from the penitentiary back to the county jail. Got it. To be tried for some other offense. I find that really hard to believe that your dad would plant evidence because an inmate escaped. But I've certainly been surprised before about so many things in criminal law. Listen to this.

I always had this feeling that he had done it or that he was involved, at least, in the crime. I know there was some things that Kim and I talked about on the phone about some alternative hypotheses. I know that my friend in high school, her dad, even had said there was some other person that had seen two other people plus Jean walking down the road the day of the crime. My jaw kind of dropped when Megan mentioned hearing about the men walking down the road the morning of the crime. This all tracks with what former Sheriff Paul Smith shared with me.

I'm trying to get my mind around this. Could it be possible that everything we believe about this case is wrong? And who is willing to go to the mat to seek the truth? One thing that concerns me, Dr. Scott A. Johnson is with me, forensic psychologist out of Minnesota, 32 years experience addressing matters just like this, author of When I Love You Turns Violent and Physical Abusers and Sex Offenders. You can find them at ForensicConsultation.org. Dr. Johnson, how many times have you heard it said, OJ didn't do it.

Please stop. Or OJ's son did it with him. Or somebody else did it. Or there's a police conspiracy. No, there was no police conspiracy you think those cops could have kept their yaps shut this long that i have a multi-million dollar book deal if there had been a conspiracy and simpson did not act with anyone else his son didn't do it he did it i mean i've heard so many conspiracy theories. What is it with the conspiracy theories? Well, I think everyone's got their five cents to add to it.

And what makes sense to someone who's not really educated about investigation, etc., is they kind of run with, well, in their head, what makes sense. Or what they want to believe. Or what they want to believe. And then they look at a crime and say one person couldn't have done this alone, when in fact they very well could do it alone. Especially if they're jacked up on something like crack cocaine or PCB. Now we're talking about potentially true allegations that someone else either helped Hart or was completely responsible for these murders.

Remember, Hart was acquitted at trial. Does that mean he didn't do it? No. Does that mean someone helped him do it? Maybe. Does that mean he's innocent? Maybe. Now, you're hearing from Meg Baker and Kim Baker,

the niece and great-niece of the suspect, Gene Hart. Remember, acquitted. Listen to this. I think that the lead-up to the suspect, Jane Hart. Remember, acquitted. Listen to this. I think that the lead up to the crime, you know, was orchestrated by my uncle. I think that he enjoyed being able to control others to do his bidding in this respect. So the incitement of fear through the stalking,

through the leaving of different effigies and clues and things like that. I have heard through some family members that the people other than my uncle that acted in this case were totally out of their minds on acid. Like for several days out of their minds on acid. Like for several days out of their minds. And that they went to the camp, that Gene did most of the acting. He controlled them to get there. You know, you may think this is far-fetched, and it does sound far-fetched that Gene Hart planned the whole thing

and somebody else did it. Sounds crazy to me, but think about it that's exactly what charles manson did he whipped up his followers got him all high on drugs and then they went and committed horrible horrible mass murder while he laughed in glee. That is what happened. It's in my experience dealing with similar crimes, not one of this magnitude, but similar. It's not uncommon. There's multiple people involved. And even looking at the details of the crime scene,

again, I'm not a police officer or investigator, but certainly to have subdued three people. Oh, come on. They're eight years old and they're asleep. How hard is that? I could take my son in a sleeping bag and drag him out of the tent and put him in the pond and he wouldn't know until he got wet. No, all I'm saying is there may have been others involved and it's not uncommon that

there's multiple people, especially like you said, they're doing drugs or things like that. Especially if this whole thing started as a robbing spree. They're going to all creep around and get into counselors' tents and find things. I could see more than one person being involved. It's called a robbing crew. That happens every day. But three people agreeing to rape and murder three little girls ages eight, nine, and ten, that's a little tougher pill to swallow. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want to go back to Kim and Meg Baker. Kimberly Baker and Meg Baker.

Kim, the niece of murder suspect Gene Hart. Meg, the great niece. And they're telling what some would think is a fantastical story that multiple people were involved in this. It has happened before. And I am not poo-pooing the idea, Baker ladies. I'm not. I think it's a stretch logistically, but when you think of a robbing crew going in, that's not hard for me to imagine. Like two or three guys getting together, we're going to go rob everybody while they're asleep.

But three people intending to go in and rape and murder and keeping quiet about it that's a whole another animal uh what did you what did you mean in your statement meg that you have always heard that other people were involved in anything other than gossip or rumor lead you to the conclusion that your great uncle is innocent um well I would say that it was more just like when I was trying to understand or conceptualize how this kind of crime could happen, I was thinking about like logistically kind of similar to like what we've been talking about. In my viewpoint, it seems like that would be really difficult

to manage three girls and keeping them quiet. And also, just like from some conversations with my own mother, who is the person who originally pulled me to the side and told me that our family was involved in this kind of crime. It was kind of like, essentially that. It was just like my logical thinking. Okay. So not any firm evidence, but... Other than my friend's conversation. Yeah.

Okay. What about it, Kimberly Baker? The idea that the perps were hopped up on acid days ahead of time? That your uncle was the puppeteer i find that theory to have some validity it feels correct to me based on my observations and my own research my own um you know journaling when i think about what my family has told me over the years about this person, it seems like it could be possible for him to have been, to be the puppeteer. And of course, Nathan Clark, a partner at Rhodes Hieronymus in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Nathan, of course, you and I know as trial lawyers that it's beyond a reasonable doubt that's the standard not possible not probable not what the conclusion you came to in your journaling everything must be founded in fact

correct and that's the challenge with a 45 year old investigation man you're not kidding nathan clark uh joe scott morgan professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University. Joe Scott, is it possible that one person did this? Is it more probable that three people did this? Quickly. Yeah, I think that it's very difficult to say that one person would have necessarily have done this where you're controlling these three little girls. And so the idea is that you find them not too far away from the tent it it seems as

though that this was an incomplete attempt to remove them from the location agree goes back to buddy bristol that fate told us about right who had planned to put them in this vw and dump the car in the water and that car coincidentally disappeared from all registry or all no one has ever seen it again. I hear you that disposal issue Joe Scott Morgan right once again dragging the three bodies out and then suddenly why would you drag the bodies out and leave them in plain view if you were not going to go dispose of them. That's a theory that rears its ugly head when Faith Phillips told us about another potential suspect, Buddy Bristol. Speaking of Faith Phillips, listen.

I just got out of my meeting with the Cherokee Nation Marshals, and I feel heard. They listened to the whole story from day one all the way through day 384, whatever today is. And I could tell that they believed what I said. They looked through the evidence. They were a little bit overwhelmed, I think, because of the volume of evidence. But I told them, that's okay.

I've been overwhelmed with myself. Now that the marshals are in possession of everything and mcgirt has determined that they do have jurisdiction they've promised to go through it all and determine if they will open the investigation which goes back to what nathan clark told us high profile lawyer out of tulsa that under new laws the ch Cherokee Nation is investigating this. So Faith Phillips finally gets a call that Cherokee Marshals are creating a task force dedicated to the Girl Scout murder investigation. What does that mean to you, Faith Phillips? Are the potential for suspects still alive?

Do they still live in and around Locust Grove? Yes, we still have the suspects living in and around Locust Grove? Yes, we still have the suspects living in and around Locust Grove in this area. And that's really what drove me from the beginning. I said, you know, if there's even a chance that someone who was there that night that saw what happened was involved in whatever way, that they're still in my community. And that had been kind of the undercurrent all this time. You don't stir up this case. These rumors that we keep talking about that keep swirling around, and that's the worst thing you can do is tell me that I can't do something.

Faith Phillips really reignited this investigation. Was Gene Hart guilty? He was acquitted. What about these four potential suspects? Faith Phillips is living there knowing these people are walking and breathing still alive. Did they take part in the murder and rape of three little girls? And why are they still walking amongst us? We follow the very latest developments in the brand new Fox station series, The Girl Scout Murders here at Crime Stories all week tomorrow. Why has it taken nearly 50 years to find the truth?

Plus, would there be a different outcome in solving the Girl Scout Murders now in 2022? We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Comstory signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.