Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Why Steven Avery doesn't deserve a new trial & missing & murdered women in N.C.

Episode Date: October 10, 2017

Det. Tom Fassbender, the lead investigator on the team that convicted Steven Avery for the murder of Teresa Halbach, tells Nancy Grace why Avery shouldn't get a new trial. An appeals court has denied Avery's latest motion. Defense lawyer Hunter Shkolnik, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan & reporter Leigh Egan join in the discussion about the controversial "Making a Murderer" case. Nancy also explores the mysteries surrounding missing and murdered woman in North Carolina. Crime scene investigator Sheryl McCollum, psycho analyst Dr. Bethany Marshall & reporter Bobbi Maddox discuss these cases. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash Nancy Grace to ZipRecruiter.com slash Nancy Grace. ZipRecruiter.com slash Nancy Grace. One more time to try it for free. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash Nancy Grace. Thank you, ZipRecruiter. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. Hundreds of thousands of people are calling for the pardon of a convicted killer after the Netflix series Making a Murderer exposed possible flaws in the case that put him behind bars.

We have Stephen Avery in custody, though. Making a Murderer tells the story of Stephen Avery. He's the Wisconsin man who served 18 years in prison for rape before being exonerated in 2003. We, the jury, find the defendant guilty. Only to find himself in prison again on a murder conviction in 2007. I didn't know what to do or how to handle it. Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities who lied and planted evidence. Steven Avery is right where he needs to be in prison.

I think he was innocent, is innocent. Unless you've been living in a cave or hiding under a rock, you know about Netflix. I mean, I do. I have to navigate it very carefully, though, because my twins like to get on there and watch kid shows. There's a lot more on there than kid shows, I can tell you that much. But right now, I don't think I know a single soul that doesn't know about the Netflix so-called documentary called Making a Murderer,

which takes thousands and thousands of hours of footage, cuts it down, and suggests that a convicted killer, Stephen Avery, did not murder a young photographer, Teresa Halbach. Now, this is how I know about the case. When I first encountered the case, I was covering it as a missing person. Teresa Halbach, a 20-something-year-old girl, just beautiful. She looks like the girl next door. For some reason, she always reminds me of Mary Ann on Gilligan's Island. Not necessarily physically. Upbeat, photographer, trying to make her way in the world, brunette, big brown eyes,

always smiling in every picture I ever saw of her. And she was taking pictures, photos for AutoTrader, I think it was. And she did not want to go to a certain gig because the guy was creepy, like answering the door with nothing but a towel. I mean, I would turn around and leave right there. Okay. But that aside, she needed the money. She got a call back from the guy to take a picture of a vehicle for AutoTrader. She heads out the door, tells her co-worker she doesn't want to go,

heads out the door. She's never seen alive again. Of course, I'm talking about Stephen Avery, the star of Making a Murderer on Netflix. It caught the country by storm, and everybody's convinced Stephen Avery didn't do it. Okay, with me is a very important guest today, Detective Tom Fassbender, who is the lead investigator on the Avery case. As I like to say, the Teresa Halbach case.

Also with me, Crime Online investigative reporter Lee Egan and, of course, Alan Duke joining me from LA. Tom I can't tell you what an honor it is and I don't know how many times you've heard me say something like that probably very few an honor to have you on because you have endured the onslaught of the media suggesting Stephen Avery did not rape and murder Teresa Hallback. I mean, come on. When I had him on my show on HLN, Headline News, he lied right to my face, Tom. He lied about what happened that evening. Why lie about it?

It seems like he'd be trying to help find her. Why are you convinced, Tom? And dummy down for me, okay? Give me the facts. Why are you convinced Avery is And dummy down for me, okay? Give me the facts. Why are you convinced Avery is guilty of rape and murder? Because a judge has rejected his request

for a new trial. Thank heaven. Why are you convinced, Tom Fassbender, that the judge was right? Well, Nancy, thank you first for having me on. And why I'm convinced, I'm going to dummy it down as much as I can here, is number one, the scientific evidence

overwhelmingly proves that Stephen Avery did this. And number two, you can disregard a little of the scientific evidence, and you can go right back to what you mentioned earlier, that Stephen Avery lured Teresa to his place by using different names, by using star 67 features behind his identity. Wait a minute, Tom. Dare I, dare I change a word you're saying? But when you say did this, you know, in polite company when I grew up, we wouldn't even say cancer out loud. We would say she got cancer. Okay, things that are bad. They have a drinking problem. Yes. You said did this. Let's just put

it out there. He chained her to a bed, chained her to a bed with his little nephew or cousin there, Brendan Dassey. Chained her to a bed. She was raped repeatedly. All her hair was cut off her head. And then she was shot dead after a brutal rape, chained down. Then her body was put in a, quote, fire pit in his backyard, which he stirred well into the night. Friends, relatives saw him doing it. And in that fire pit, later were recovered, not too much,

but her teeth and the studs off her Daisy Fuentes jeans she was wearing when she was last seen. Is that correct? That's the this to which you referred. That is correct. Stephen Avery murdered Teresa Halbach and burned her in that pit where we found her cremains, bones, teeth, and even the little rivets on the jeans she was wearing that day. Why do you know he didn't? I don't care.

No offense, Netflix, because I watch you. Why are they wrong and the jury was right? Because, Nancy, the jury heard all the evidence to include Stephen Avery's DNA on the hoodlatch of Teresa's RAV4 vehicle, Stephen Avery having burned her electronics, her telephone, her PDA, and her camera in his burn barrel. You didn't see that on Netflix. Wait a minute. Will you say that again, please? I'm writing notes as fast as I can, Tom Fassbender. What now? Teresa's Hallbox Electronics, her telephone, her camera, and her PDA were found burned in Stephen Avery's burn barrel. There

were witnesses to that burn barrel burning that day, October 31st, 2005. There were witnesses seeing Stephen walking to that burn barrel. There was a witness who smelled plastics, and her stuff was found in that burn barrel. You don't see that on the Netflix documentary. And there's no way you can mistake that. Lee Egan, investigative reporter, Crime Online. I will never forget the first time I smelled burned electronics or plastics. It was after 911, September 11, in New York, where I was living at the time of 911.

And the whole city smelled like burning plastic or electronics. I mean, nobody had to tell me what it was. I knew what it was. I've been to a million arson scenes. I hadn't smelled it so heavily. Yep, absolutely. And there was people like, like it so heavily lee yep absolutely they and there was people like like mr fastbender said there was a lot of evidence that was left out of that documentary including people did say they smelled burning plastics electronics something coming from that burn pit and one and something else he brought up about the the d the hood latch, that was one of the reasons the judge actually denied this new motion because his attorney, Avery's attorney, Zellner, she said something that she tested 11 or like 15 people. She tested 15 people with their DNA on the hood latch and

only 11 people's DNA matched. So she's trying to say there's no way to say Avery's DNA could have matched, which, of course, the judge says, even if 11 of 15 people did not match, that doesn't mean one particular person wouldn't have left DNA. I want to get back to the facts as you know them with me. Lead investigator in the Stephen Avery prosecution, Detective Tom Fassbender. I had interrupted you so you could clarify for me anyway that Teresa's cell phone, her PDA, her camera were all burned in the fire pit.

That even relatives and friends saw Steve and Avery stirring and burning into the night. It was later claimed police planted all that. But he's the one that relatives, Avery's relatives and friends saw tending the fire, not police. I want to get back to the facts as you know them, Tom Fassbender. Go ahead. I'll try not to interrupt. Excuse me. No, no problem. Yeah, it was the burn. He had two places that he burned. He had the burn pit where he burned Teresa's body. And he also had the burn barrel in front of his house. That's where he had the electronics. So two different locations where he was burning, again, Teresa and an evidence. And then the other thing I was going

to mention was in the garage where we knew that Stephen had shot Teresa and killed her, a bullet fragment was found. And on that bullet fragment was Teresa's DNA. And also that bullet fragment was forensically matched to the.22 rifle hanging above Stephen Avery's bedboard, which his nephew told us he had used to do this. And that was not mentioned in Making a Murder either, that the bullet was forensically matched to that.22 caliber rifle. So in order for police to have planted the evidence as it is now claimed, you're telling me not a bullet, but a bullet fragment,

and having tested forensically so many, hundreds, hundreds of bullets at the least with the crime lab as a prosecutor, a bullet fragment is mangled, it is destroyed, it's a squished up, mutilated piece of metal. And this tiny piece of metal was part of a 22, for a 22 weapon bullet. And it had Teresa Halbach's DNA on it. She shot in the head. That was found in Avery's garage. Is that correct, Tom?

That is correct. Hold on. With me right now, a special guest, Hunter Skolnick, criminal defense attorney, joining me out of New York. Hunter, thank you for being with us. I want to hear your thinking on the judge's denial of Stephen Avery's motion for a brand-new trial. What do you think and why? Well, let me put it this way, and thank you for having me here. I do appreciate it. I just find it very concerning that the judge would deny a new trial at this point where where you have an appellate court that's already disapproved the way in which the information was obtained from Avery's nephew.

If his conviction is weak based upon improper handling of the young man and this confession, and much of the proof against Avery begins with that, why wouldn't you at least give a new trial? I'm not suggesting he's innocent simply because of that. I'm not suggesting additional testing or police work shouldn't be allowed into the trial. But there's a taint here. Why put someone away to jail with that type of taint and not give the opportunity for a retrial? It just doesn't make sense. With me is Hunter Skolnick, criminal defense attorney out of New York. Well, I think, Tom Fassbender, the appellate reasoning was that Brendan Dassey, although I completely disagree with him,

had no idea what he was doing when he confessed to police that he raped, at Stephen Avery's urging, raped Teresa Hallback. I don't recall he ever said that he took part in the murder, but that he did rape her. And he said that on tape and on video. And his mother knew he was there. His lawyer, detective, investigators knew he was there speaking to police. The appellate court said that his IQ was low, so he didn't understand what he was saying. It's my understanding of the decision that really the mastermind was Stephen Avery, not Brendan Dassey, the nephew. So how in the world, with an appellate court saying it was really Stephen Avery, should we reverse and grant a new trial for Stephen Avery? That's just food for thought.

But Tom Fassbender, you mentioned the burn pits and the two locations of burning Teresa Hallback body and possessions. What DNA was found on Teresa Avery's car, which was hidden at the back of Stephen Avery's auto salvage lot? What DNA was on her car, which was found on his property? The DNA found was in the car and it was in blood form. And Stephen Avery's DNA was found in essentially all portions of that car, the front of the car, the midsection of the car, the back of the car. Teresa Hallbach's blood DNA was also found in the storage area in the back of that RAV4 when her body was placed in the back of that car after being shot. Tom Fassbender, you have reconstructed the entire day of this halloween back in 05 you've reconstructed the entire day that theresa hall back endured her last day on earth what does the evidence tell you happened from the time she left her office or her job to go take those pictures. What happened to her?

Teresa began her day early in the morning and basically she was lured to Stephen Avery's house by Stephen Avery for the purpose of Stephen Avery abducting her and ultimately killing her, murdering her. There's no question about that. The evidence shows that and i will address hunter's comments for just a second in that brendan dasky's confession was not used in steven avery's trial so there was no connection in that respect steven avery was convicted on the evidence so the nephew's testimony the nephew's confession to raping her before she was murdered while she was chained down on a bed, that never came into Stephen Avery's trial. That is correct.

So it was not an essential piece of that trial. The trial court just recently found and denied Stephen Avery's motion for a new trial. And in my opinion, because it was based on theory, assumption, and accusations, not backed by evidence, and what resulted what we anticipated from the court, a dismissal of the motion in its entirety without a hearing. And because of that, we hope that the Hallback family can take the next step towards closure in this case and that law enforcement can be further vindicated in the great job that they closure in this case and that law enforcement can be further vindicated in the great job that they did on this case. February 2004, Mara Murray empties her bank

account, drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes. Join the search as an investigative reporter uncovers new evidence, interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting new investigative series. The Disappearance of Maura Murray, Saturdays 7, 6 Central and 9, 8 Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime. With me is Detective Tom Fassbender, who is the lead investigator on the Avery case. As I like to say, the Teresa Halbach case. Also with me, Crime Online investigative reporter Lee Egan and Hunter Skolnick, criminal defense attorney, joining me out of New York based on the evidence.

Tom, she leaves her office to go take photos. She had taken photos for Avery before, and he was so creepy. She didn't want to go back, and she told her friends that at work, but she went back anyway. What happened then, Tom? Based on the evidence, she gets there between 2.30 and 3, takes a photo of the car, and Stephen has her come up to his house where she's abducted, ultimately raped and murdered. His next-door neighbor and nephew saw Teresa there, taking pictures of the car, saw her walk toward Stephen's house. And then when he left the house to go hunting, Teresa's car was still there, and Teresa was not around, and neither was Stephen. What did she endure in her last hours, Tom?

I don't even want to imagine what she endured in her last hours. And because of that, I'm not going to verbalize what she endured in her last hours. And because of that, I'm not going to verbalize what she endured in her last hours. It's horrible. You know, Alan, that takes a lot for a seasoned investigator, a veteran investigator like Tom Fassbender, not to even want to think about it. You know, I've had cases like that where I just can't stand to even think about it. It makes me want to vomit. It makes me just want to run outside and howl. I remember a feeling, Alan,

I had been working on my first book. It was a nonfiction called Objection. And one of the chapters is called Blood Money, how people make money off crime and murder. And I had detailed how people buy autopsy reports and they try to get crime seen. Just horrible, horrible stuff. And by the time I finished that book, I threw away the laptop. The laptop had, I know it sounds crazy, the laptop had researched so many horrible horrible things to write that book about what people do I couldn't even stand to put my fingertips on it again I just I just couldn't and I threw it away

I ran out got another $300 but what I'm saying is it just I don't blame him about not wanting to describe it again right let me first say this about Detective Tom Fassbender. I met him at CrimeCon. He changed my mind. I watched that whole Netflix series. I thought, oh, free Steve Avery, get him a new trial. And then I sat and we talked with Tom Fassbender, the detective. I came away with a different opinion. And I really respect that. You know, Alan, I'm embarrassed for you okay because you clearly don't have the wherewithal to know you should be embarrassed but um i get it okay a lot of people have watched it and believed it but i i guess i'm wrong in saying that because

i was on the case at the beginning not to the degree of course tom was but covering it as a missing person because something about theresa hallback caught my attention when I saw her picture. And then I interviewed Avery, and he lied about that evening. He did Star 67, I think is the one you use to hide your identity when you make a phone call, and tried to call her and waiting for her to get there. And then after she's dead, he then calls her with his caller ID, calls on her phone so people can know he called. And, you know, it's 530 or 6.

He goes, hey, what happened? You never showed up. He left that message. But to me, he said, she never came. And wait, wait, wait, what did he say? She came and she left. That was his story. She came, she took the pictures, and she left.

But he's leaving her the message, which is caught on audio. Hey, where are you? You never came. So why the two different stories, Tom Fassbender? Why lie to me on national TV about what happened? Well, exactly. Stephen, throughout his accounts, especially early on in the case, had varying accounts of what happened. Now, the call he made after she allegedly left for his rendition,

he actually didn't leave a message, but he did make the call, didn't hide his ID, and that was his alibi call because he told us that she had left and he was going to call her back. But early on, he had told Autotrader that she had left and he was going to call her back. But early on, he had told the auto trader that she never showed up. Then it changed who she showed up, but I didn't come out. I saw her taking pictures. Then it changed who I did come out. She actually came into my house. So his stories change. Your story shouldn't have to change. It's the truth. And if nothing happened, there's no reason for that to occur.

So you're right on the change. I think I remember this, Tom. I think I remember this as well. And I'm going to have to, Alan, pull the transcript for me on what he said on HLN. But I recall quizzing him. I went easy on him at first. But then I started quizzing him because he told me Tom that he was there the whole day and that he never saw her car come by and go anywhere and then I started quizzing him because of course her car was found at the back at the back of his property I said where's your office that you were sitting in and he told me goes he said I've got a window that looks right out and I said so you could see for sure anybody that came in or out.

And he went, yeah. And then how did her car get secretly put there by police? Well, he's sitting there and he never saw it. And what is his kooky theory about this was all trumped up by police, Tom, that police, what, killed her and planted her body there? I mean, who does he say killed her? Well, ultimately, I know that he had said police did it and police framed him. The defense was that it was planted and that police framed him.

And I mean, there's no other explanation other than that police did it. Now, there's some theories by the defense that, you know, a boyfriend did it or someone else did it floating around there because they have to keep grasping at these straws. Well, that didn't work. Let's try this. Well, that didn't work. Let's try this. And it gets to the point of ridiculousness. The evidence speaks for itself. Stephen Avery abducted and killed Teresa Halbach. And for this to continue to go on is such a travesty in our front to the Halbach family and the true victims in this case. You know what's interesting, Tom, and I'm going to come back to Hunter Skolnick, veteran trial lawyer out of New York joining us today.

You know what's funny, that funny odd? People have hunches. And I've always said they're not imaginary. They're not without merit. Hunches are something that is ingrained in us. It's from thousands and thousands of years of existence. You get a feeling. It may be something you see or you smell or you hear or you recall. Something subtle that you can't put your finger on, but it's real. Hunches are real. Teresa Hallback had a hunch.

She did not want to go back to Steve and Avery's to take those pictures that day. She did not want to go back. She went back because it was her job. She was never seen alive again. Question to you, Hunter. Although the judge has now ruled he will not get a new trial, that's not the end of it. The Making a Murderer star, Stephen Avery, could still get a new trial. How?

Absolutely. Well, we know that there is an agreement between the Wisconsin Attorney General, as I understand it, and Avery's attorneys for additional testing, forensic testing. And they plan on proceeding down that path. And also, based on that agreement, seeking to obtain new evidence. And if something comes from that additional testing, I think you're going to see another petition before the judge and an argument that a new trial should go forward. Yeah, the one thing I think we can all agree is that this was a horrific murder. There's no question.

And I don't think anyone's contesting that she went through a horror beyond imagination. I think we have to also look at the fact that there is going to be additional testing being done at this time, scientific testing, which was agreed to, as I understand it, between the Attorney General and Defense Counsel. So, you know, there's something here. The question is, what is it? And did the investigating officers, and Tom, with all due respect to everyone, I know you guys do a, you undertake a very tough job. The boyfriend has to be looked at closely. They have a lot of issues here. As his lawyer states, quote, the bottom line is neither we nor Avery have any intention of giving up and not proceeding. He is absolutely innocent.

You know, I don't know how his lawyers can do it, but they are doing it. Well, you know, look at it from a different standpoint. This is a man who spent 15 years in jail, wrongly convicted and only exonerated based upon DNA evidence. He could have given up in that case as well. And he has every right to pursue additional scientific testing, additional forensic testing, irrespective of all the evidence that is there right now.

I understand there was blood found. I understand there's forensic evidence. But there is also some questionable conduct with respect to the nephew's interrogation. But that deals with the nephew's case. That deals with the nephew's case, not Stephen Avery's. But I understand. But it was the same team investigating the whole case. Okay, I hear you.

I hear you. The suggestion that that can't be attained is really just. That's just what it is. It's a suggestion by you and the defense lawyers. And I understand the suggestion. I disagree with it because Brendan Dassey outright said he raped Teresa Hallback. I've never thought he killed her. I thought he was there when she was killed.

That's what he said. As a matter of fact, take a listen to the nephew, Brendan Dassey, as he says he, quote, had sex with Teresa Hallback. Of course, she was chained to a bed at the time. But listen to this. I'm just going to revisit one thing. When you're in the bedroom and you cut her throat, with Teresa Hallback. Of course, she was chained to a bed at the time. But listen to this. I'm just going to revisit one thing. When you were in the bedroom and you cut her throat,

previously you said that you thought she was alive. Is that still your thought on that? Yeah. And why was that? Because she was breathing a little bit. She was, like, trying to... not trying to breathe as hard as she could. From screaming a lot. She was screaming a lot or wasn't?

She was. When you cut her throat was she screaming? Uh-uh. Oh. When you cut her throat? Cause when you're screaming a lot, you're like, your breathing goes up or something. Explain that a little bit. You said she was screaming a lot. When was she screaming a lot? Like, while you were doing it, after you did it, before you did it? Before.

When you cut her throat, what was she doing, if anything? Like, screaming for help and crying. I want to get that straight. She was screaming for help and crying when you cut her throat? Yeah. When did Steven choke her or strangle her? Like, a little bit after that. Well, let's just go back a little bit after that Well, let's let's just go back a little bit. Okay. Tell us what exactly happened to her what order happened

So there were basically three things prior to guys shooting her explain those in the order that happened Starting with what we got in the room. Yeah, what you guys did to her? We had sex with her. Okay. Then he stabbed her. And who stabbed her? He did. Who's he?

Steven. Okay. And then what? Then I cut his throat. Okay. And then he choked her and I cut off her hair. Okay. So he choked her after you cut her throat. Now, also, listen to what was said on HLN when I spoke to Stephen Avery.

He lied right to my face. Stephen, I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot to take photos for the auto trader, correct? Yes, she did. She came down by me. Okay. And Stephen, it's my understanding that also you state that you saw her car leave. Yes, I did.

About what time? Between, she was there between 2 and 2.30. 2.30 in the afternoon. Okay, Stephen, how is it that her car could get all the way back in this pit area where there is a... Well, I believe we're showing it right now. I mean, wouldn't she have to pass back by the office again? Well, on the outskirts of the office. Otherwise, back by me or back by Redon's pit in the corner is all open.

It's all open. Yeah, so anybody can drive in there. Mr. Avery, did you see anyone else come in, anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, Thursday night, me and my brother had to go to Menards to pick up some wood with the flatbed, and I seen taillights back by me. It wasn't supposed to be. Yeah. We turned around, and we went back there, truckie parked on the side, and I took the flashlight out of the flatbed, and I looked around by me

and behind me, but I didn't see none. To Lee Egan, crime online investigative reporter, renowned defense attorney out of New York, Hunter Skolnick, and, of course course to Detective Tom Fassbender, lead investigator on the Avery case. Thank you. A gorgeous 20-year-old woman is missing. There's a $5,000 reward and catch this, the missing woman is from the same North Carolina town as three other women who vanished and were later found dead. I'm talking about Abby Lynn Patterson. And as we go to serious today, another woman, Ashanti Billy, also making headlines.

With me right now, Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories investigative reporter Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute and Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst joining us out of L.A. along with Alan Duke, the Duke also in L.A. First to you, Bobby Maxwell, thank you for being with us. I want to talk first about Abby Lynn Patterson. What do we know about her disappearance? Abby actually disappeared on September 5th from her hometown of Lumberton, North Carolina. She had been previously living in Jacksonville, Florida for a few years, so recently had come back and had a good connection with her mom, a good relationship, said she was stepping out, she'd be back in an hour. That hour went up, the mother didn't see her, and she's been missing ever since. And once again, that was since September the 5th in Lumberton. In Lumberton, police say that Abby Patterson was last seen getting into a brown Buick.

Okay. She stands 5'7", brown hair, brown eyes. She's got a birthmark on the back of her left thigh. She was wearing brown shorts and a white shirt when she was last seen. Says she'll be gone for an hour, never returns. Mom repeatedly over and over and over calls her cell phone, which then goes straight to voicemail. Now, Cheryl McCollum, you're the director of the Cold Case Institute. When a phone goes directly to voicemail, no ring, no nothing, it just goes to voicemail, what does that mean? What are the choices? Well, the battery's either dead, somebody destroyed the phone, or somebody deliberately hit end call.

So, to me, the key here is that brown viewing. She willingly got in the car. So, whoever that driver is, is where we start. That's where we start. For all I know, that was a ride to Target or to Walmart. Although I want to speak to the person in the Brown Buick to find out where her next location was. On her case, the number, tip line 910-671-3845, 910-671-3845. She goes missing right there on East 9th Street, 1130 a.m. on a Tuesday morning. After one hour, she tells her mom she's going to be back in one hour. Her mother calls her in one hour. And in one hour, Cheryl McCollum, her phone was already going directly to voicemail. Whatever

was going to happen had happened, I think, within that one hour. No question. And Nancy, it's going to be imperative that law enforcement get on her social media, look at anybody that she, you know, sent a text message to or received a text message from. She went to meet someone, no question about it. So again, 9th Street, Brown Buick, that is your whole money tree right there. Okay, let's move forward to another woman missing, Ashanti Billy. Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell me about Ashanti Billy. Bobbi Maxwell, Crime Stories investigative reporter. What can you tell me about Ashanti? Ashanti is a 19-year-old originally from Maryland, Nancy.

And she was going to school in Virginia as a culinary school there. And actually worked for a blimpy restaurant on a military base in that area as well. She was expected into work on September the 18th. The last they saw of her was in her car through security going into that military base. And reports are that her car was seen. They couldn't tell if she was in it, leaving a short time after that. She never did show up at the workplace. And the FBI was brought into the case because it was on a military base. And sadly, she was found just recently, her body in Charlotte, North Carolina, over 300 miles away. Billy's body was found behind a church in Charlotte, North Carolina, as Bobby Maxwell

just reported, over 300 miles away from where she was last seen in Norfolk. Why? Why? Her family says, quote, to the person or persons that decided they wanted to take our baby away from us and away from everyone that loved her. You are a coward. That is what Billy's mother, Brandy, said. Randy said, Everyone, please, I'm begging everybody, please pray for my baby. Please. Please pray for Ashanti Philly, my daughter, my baby. She's my everything. Please pray for her.

Bring my baby home today. Everyone, please share. Anyone you know. Just help me bring my baby Ashanti home. Please. I'm just thinking about why they're saying, Cheryl McCollum, that they cannot see whether she is the one driving her car out on that surveillance video. I mean, come on. We can figure, we can see a rock on the moon, an individual rock. We can see a rock on the moon, an individual rock. We can see a footprint on the moon, but we can't figure out who's driving the car. They're faced backwards to get the last tag.

But Nancy, the thing is, she was found 300 miles away, but that's six hours driving time. That's an awful long way for a stranger to drive a kidnap victim. So this has a feel of it as being somewhat domestic, and I would look at a boyfriend or ex-boyfriend. Investigators find her cell phone that day in a Norfolk dumpster. They later find her car abandoned. So somebody else was driving that car, and somebody got rid of her cell phone right there on the spot.

An intense search for the teen girl ensued and Billy's family forming a search party to look for her. Sending out flyers, the works, begging for help on Facebook. I'm looking at her picture right now. She's absolutely beautiful. That day, she was scheduled to show up at her job at a sandwich shop at the Joint Expeditiary Base. That's Little Creek. At 5 a.m. that Monday morning. She was a student at the Art Institute of Virginia Beach. Last seen heading to work.

She never arrived. It's amazing to me that they haven't found any DNA or have they, Bobby Maxwell? I mean, we've got the car as most likely a secondary or maybe even a primary crime scene. You have her body now recovered, dumped behind a church. It's very hard for me to believe there's not any DNA. Obviously, Nancy, no struggle on the base or any kind of DNA was showed around her workplace. And by the way, the boyfriend does have an alibi. He was in training at a military base in South Carolina. So he has been ruled out. But no DNA.

And like you said, a long, long way to drive with someone who's fighting to escape if she's alive. If she's alive. A sex assault and a murder could have taken place right there. She was getting out of the car at 5 a.m. in the morning or earlier in the dark hours. She's on a military base back in that car. And it was just a matter of putting her in the trunk and driving her to a dump site. Now, what do we know, Cheryl McCollum, about where her body was dumped behind that church at Charlotte? Right. A landscape employee found her body behind the AME Zion Church.

Not covered, not a shallow grave, just out in the open. And again, Nancy, I'm going to tell you, that's an awful long way for a stranger to take somebody. And usually people tend to go places they know. So again, I would look for people that knew that area and possibly even knew that church. You're right about that. Was she clothed? Do we know that, Bobbi Maxwell? Don't have any information on whether she was clothed or not. No word on any kind of assault or anything of that matter. You know what's hard to believe, Cheryl McCollum, talking about you can't figure out who's driving the car on surveillance video?

You remember the killer clown case we were talking about, a 27-year-old murder, where a female dressed as a clown shows up at a woman's door with balloons and flowers, and when she answers the door, shoots her in the face dead? Right. and flowers and when she answers the door shoots her in the face dead right 27 years pass and suddenly with advances in dna technique they can determine who shot her according to dna and we don't know about any dna on this girl's body why why is that well maybe they're not releasing it yet nancy because they haven't released the cause of death either and that's probably not a bad idea with an open investigation like this.

But there's also a chance they could get a latent print off the cell phone. Whoever threw that cell phone in the dumpster, they could get a decent print off that. Or, if they even were stupid enough to use the cell phone, or prints on the car, around the truck, on the handle, around the ignition. Remember in the Stephen Avery case, the victim, Teresa Hallback, there was DNA on the ignition, the ignition, Cheryl McCullen, where he's hunched over trying to start Teresa Hallback's car. He left DNA there. Exactly.

You can leave. Yeah, he clearly used her vehicle. She didn't ditch her own car. So if he used her car to transport her, which is possible, at least a short distance, then he had to touch the trunk, the steering wheel, the rearview mirror, the gear shift. He touched a lot of things in that car. Dr. Bethany Marshall, weigh in. Well, you know, this is a military base with a lot of men. And when you told me that the

restaurant where she was working was located on the military base, this beautiful 20-year-old art student, I just got a chill up my spine. I mean, I just thought from a parent's perspective how vulnerable she was working there. And what I would want to know, since there seems to be perhaps some familiarity between her and the abductor, who was going in and out of that restaurant. I would want to look at all the receipts. I would want to look at who was frequenting the restaurant. I would want to look at her cell phone, see who was texting, who was calling, look on her social media. Because it seems to me if there was some familiarity between her and the perpetrator, that somebody would have been grooming her, right? That somebody would have targeted her. She would have been on somebody's site. And so that the person would

have gained her trust enough to have persuaded her to get in the car with them. So who could that person have been on this military base? It doesn't seem random. It doesn't seem like somebody just, you know, nabbed her as she was going into work. It seems like she knew the perpetrator. You know, Lumberton investigators state that there are three other women who vanished from the very same town as Abby in separate incidents. And they were all discovered murdered, slain within the last year. How can this not be connected, Bobby Maxwell? Yes, Nancy, and not just the past year, but since April, within the same few blocks of each other. Christina Bennett, 32, Rhonda Jones, 36, they were

found across the street from each other. And then in June, another woman, Megan Oxendine, her body was found just three blocks from the original two. Cheryl McCollum, three women, Christina Bennett, 32, Rhonda Jones, 36, Megan Oxendine, 28, all vanished from the same town in separate incidents. All discovered slain in the same calendar year. Now, I've got Abby missing from, what, a mile away? Nancy, it sounds like it's straight out of the serial killer playbook. I'm very concerned about her well-being, obviously. But again, she's probably going to be found within a mile of that area.

You know, in this North Carolina town, families still looking for answers. And the disappearance of three women were dashed, all their hopes dashed, when the women were found slain. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, you know that Abby Lynn Patterson's family has got to be so distraught wondering, is she the fourth in a series within, you know, a couple of miles from each other? You know, Nancy, they must be devastated. And the fact that her mother called her cell phone, it went straight to voicemail. And then her daughter was never seen or heard from again. Can you imagine from a mother's perspective what that must feel like? And when Cheryl McCollum said this is out of the serial killer playbook,

the first thought that crossed my mind was, well, if it's a serial killer, then the perpetrator likely did not know the victims because we know serial killers do not groom their victims in the same way that a serial rapist might say that somebody who might commit an abduction, rape, homicide might, you know, sort of in its own cursory way, know the victim. A serial killer will just drive through the streets, troll through the streets, and the looking process will be very fetishized and very exciting for them. And then they will pick a victim because that victim is appealing to them in some way, but the victim will most likely be a stranger. So it'd be more difficult for the police to sift through the clues and find the perpetrator if he's a serial killer. And I'm worried about more women being at risk in this small town.

You know, another clue regarding her clothing. Right after Ashanti goes missing, I remember her body was found behind a church hundreds of miles away. A two-hour search ensued, and volunteers found a pink shoe and a sweatshirt. Okay? That's the girl where her cell phone was found later that day in a dumpster three miles away from the base, and neighbors spotted her car at a dead-end road okay so that was planted there on purpose it had been there for several days well listen to this uh cheryl mccollum cold case

institute what do you make of this then a volunteer found the other pink shoe near where her car was found. So one pink shoe found near where she goes missing. The other pink shoe found near where her car was found. So that tells me there was a mighty struggle. No question, Nancy. This is the kind of thing where law enforcement, those are easy dots to connect. And it also gives law enforcement, you know, sort of breadcrumbs to follow. Where the fight happened, she continued to fight.

That may tell us she was still alive at that point. Or it could have been an issue of the perp throwing things away because there's a sweatshirt, there is a tennis shoe here, a tennis shoe near her car. There was a phone charger disposed of as well. It could have been somebody just throwing things out, but why would they bother to throw things out? They could just leave them in the car. So it seems to, it speaks more of a struggle to me than anything else. So what we know is Ashanti was found dead. The other women, dead. Some within blocks of each other.

And now another girl, Abby Lynn Patterson, is missing. So what do we do now, Cheryl McCollum? Nancy, they're going to have to just comb the area. Abby, again, she's not going to be far, and I just do not think they're going to find her alive, but she will be in that same vicinity. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute with me, Dr. Bethany Marshall and Bobby Maxwell, Crime Stories contributing reporter. Cheryl McCollum, this guy and the brown Buick. Okay, we already know three

women are dead within blocks of each other. Where do we go to find the driver of that brown Buick? Nancy, I'm going to quote you again. You said a long time ago, swans don't swim in the sewer. We have got to go where this type of individual would go. Seedy bars, back alleys, the gutter.

We literally have got to talk to drug dealers, parents, and prostitutes to find out who knows this person. The search goes on for Abby Lynn Patterson, as well as for the killer of Ashanti Billy. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. In need of great talent for your business but short on time like all of us? Well, you don't have to get lost in a huge stack of resumes to find the perfect hire. You just need the right tools, smarter tools. I'm talking about ZipRecruiter. With ZipRecruiter, you can post your job to over 100 of the web's leading job boards with one click and rest easy knowing your job is being seen by the right candidates. Then ZipRecruiter puts its smart matching technology to work, actively notifying qualified candidates about your job within minutes of posting so you receive the best possible matches.

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