Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Wife of Accused Gilgo Beach Killer 'DIVORCE'

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

As police continue to gather evidence to prove that New York architect Rex Heuermann is the Long Island Serial Killer, his wife has filed for divorce.  Heuermann’s wife, 59-year-old Asa Ellerup, is being represented by attorney Robert Macedonio. The papers were filed in Suffolk County Supreme Court.  Heuermann, 59, was arrested last week and charged with three of the four so-called Gilgo 4 murders — four women who were found dead on Gilgo Beach in December 2010, all wrapped in burlap sacks. Investigators have said that Ellerup was out of the country or out of the state when the victims were killed.   Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Bernarda Villalona - NY Criminal Defense Attorney & Former Prosecutor, Villalona Law, PLLC.; @BernardaVillalona (FaceBook, Instagram, LinkdIn, TikTok, Threads), Twitter: @VillalonaLaw    Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy); Twitter: @TrialDoc; Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology"  Sheryl McCollum – Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of the new podcast, “Zone 7;” Twitter: @ColdCaseTips Dr. Tim Gallagher - Medical Examiner with the State of Florida; Lecturer: University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine; Founder: International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference  Toby Wolson – Forensic Consultant Specializing in DNA, Serology and Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Kristin Thorne- Investigative Reporter for WABC (Channel 7 Eyewitness News in New York), and Host of Hulu’s true-crime show, “Missing;” @KristinThorne on Facebook, Twitter, Insta, Threads, & LinkedIn See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. D-I-V-O-R-C-E. It's not just just country music hit. The alleged Long Island serial killer's wife seeks a divorce in the last hours. That says a lot. Not only that, we learned that authorities are now seeking out hookers, sex workers,

to find out if any of them can provide insight into 59-year-old Rex Heuermann as the search goes on regarding his Las Vegas pleasure pit and his South Carolina compound that borders on his brother's property where, coincidentally, guess what's there? A Chevy Avalanche. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to our friends at PIX. The wife of suspected Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann has officially filed for divorce,

and tonight we are hearing from her sister for the first time. Less than a week after her husband's arrest, Asa Ellerup filing for divorce from Rex Heuermann Wednesday in Suffolk County Supreme Court. Online filings list the divorce as uncontested. Asa Ellerup's sister, Johanna, speaking briefly from the front door of her Long Island home, saying she's unaware of details. We don't know anything. We're hearing about most of it on the news ourselves. I'm confused how. I'm not saying I don't believe it.

I do believe it. But I'm still confused. How can a guy allegedly murder women for years and years? And believe you me, there are going to be more dead bodies. Whether we find them or not. That's the kicker. In Vegas, in South Carolina, in the tri-state area near Long Island, how did she not know something was off? I mean, my husband has a padlocked room downstairs in the basement.

Uh-uh. N-O. If he goes to Vegas without me and the children over and over no no no fur is gonna fly how is this happening but cheryl mccollum joining me founder director of the cold case research institute forensic expert and star of a hit series, Zone 7. Cheryl, truth, it happens all the time. I have asked women, you didn't think anything was weird? And they go, no, I didn't know a thing. That's, you know, maybe they've got on blinders, Cheryl. Maybe they don't want to know. I mean, think about it, Cheryl McCollum. A lot of people, not just women, men too, they don't want to see the signs their spouse is having an affair.

I mean, you know what? If I find lipstick on David Lynch's collar, I'm telling you, all H-E-L-L is going to break loose right now. So, I mean, how does it happen, Cheryl? Well, let me tell you this. She sure got from, I just got news my husband's been arrested as a serial killer to divorce pretty quick. So it sounds like to me she processed that information as fast as anybody I've ever seen. She ain't standing by him. She's getting rid of him as quick as she could. So on some level, she's accepted it so fast. I believe she

now knows the odd things were clues the whole time. Yeah, you know what? You may be right. Guys, we have an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. But I hear Cheryl McCollum, forensic expert, throwing a little psycho, I would say babble, but I actually think you're right. That wife processed the information pretty quickly and immediately filed for divorce. And you hear her sister, which would be Heuermann, the alleged serial killer's sister-in-law, saying, we're getting our information from the news,

just like everybody else. So they're hearing it from the news. They don't have any special knowledge. And based on what they're hearing, she files for divorce. Again, all-star panel with me. Let me go straight out to Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter, WABC, Channel 7 Eyewitness News. And she's a star of Hulu's true crime show, Missing. Kristen, it's great to have you with us. We've been to Gilgo Beach. We've looked at that remote area.

I can only imagine what it's like late at night when nobody is around. Plenty of places to hide a dead body. But my theory is, Kristen, that is that once you have the bodies being unearthed and found, he just goes to another dump site. Where is that? Don't know yet. But that said, what can you tell me about Ms. Ellerup filing for divorce? Well, look, I don't think it's entirely surprising. Although here's the thing, Nancy, to your point, I interviewed yesterday a sex worker currently in New York City. She works in this area. She's what she would consider a high-level escort. And she said, these women know when this is happening. She can tell you

firsthand that women have suspicions when their men start getting involved with sex workers and escorts and prostitutes. And so she is very suspicious of whether the wife knew anything that was going on. We don't have any proof of that, but she has firsthand knowledge. This is what she does for her line of work. And so she said the fact that the wife would have been completely floored that he was at least using, either having affairs or using escorts or prostitutes was probably not entirely surprising to her. I thought that was a really interesting perspective. Guys, in the last hours, we learned that Rex Heuermann, the alleged Long Island serial killer's wife, files for divorce. Bernarda Villanueva, high-profile criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor out of New York.

And you can find her at VillalonaLaw.com. Bernarda, thank you for being with us. You know, every time I've tried a defendant for murder or a group of defendants for murder, I can guarantee you one thing. One person will be sitting behind the defendant at trial and it's his mother. It's not his wife. It's not his girlfriend. They're long gone. It's his mother.

The mother is the last one to go. But, you know, very often you see wives hanging on till the bitter end, refusing to believe what the evidence is showing them. I think that it is, of course, I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD like Dr. Sherry Schwartz, who's about to join us. But I think that it disrupts basically the fabric of their universe. They can't believe, well, this happened. My husband did this because they've invested their whole lives and a whole nother scenario.

Exactly, Nancy. As you can see in this case, till death do us part does not apply. So the wife of this man, obviously she saw the evidence, but when she saw the evidence, aside from maybe she doesn't believe, oh, that he killed these women, but the internet searches, the Google searches,

that I think in of itself was a rude awakening because that's something that he could not walk away from. So I think that right there was probably enough for her to say, I want out from this. You are sick in the head. You're talking about, we're talking about searches having to deal with sex and kids and prostitutes and sadistic behavior. I think that would do it right there. But also remember that this is a case that is different because the wife is cooperating and the wife is going to be a key witness. Why, Nancy?

Not an eyewitness, but she has to testify at trial one to explain that she was not in the country or not in the state when these three women were killed. Because remember, her hair was found on the body or the burlap or the item that was used to tie up these women. So they have to explain that away. Also, she's going to have to explain like the different behaviors of her ex or her husband or ex-husband at the time of trial. So we're in for a rude awakening when she does come forward at the time of trial.

But as of now, she cut her losses very early on. She has a family to protect, which is her kids. Bernadette, I agree with everything you just said. but you know what? It was so fast and furious. It was like drinking from the fire hydrant. Okay. You just slow it down for us regular people. And tell me that again, one more time. I think somebody's hit the coffee a little too much this morning. Okay. It's not us, Jackie. Okay. Bernarda, everything you said was spot on. Could you please slow it down for us all because we all want to jump in. Go ahead.

Okay, so in dealing with the divorce itself, it's going to be an uncontested divorce. What does that mean in New York? It means that this man, human, he's not going to fight the divorce. I guess not. He's facing right now three counts of murder and three counts of felony murder. He's got his hands full on the legal front. You will be surprised how men will hold on to the bitter end, but he's not going to fight it. So that divorce should go through roughly in about six months. So that's a give me right there. So in terms of the wife itself,

so the wife, even though she's getting divorced, she's still going to be a key witness at trial. Why do I say that? She's not an eyewitness to the killing of these women. But remember, a crucial piece of evidence is the hair that was found on three of the bodies, either two or three of the bodies of these women. Hold on right there. That brings me to a really interesting point, and that is husband-wife privilege. You are so right, Bernarda Villalona, that she will be called as a witness to explain why her hair,

or really that she had no knowledge of the murders because her hair is on three of the victims that we know of right now. And I know Cheryl McCollum is going to jump all over this but I believe there's going to be cat hair associated back to the defendant because we saw detectives taking out a cat scratching post from the home. If any of you have a cat or you know a cat lover you cannot leave your home without being covered in cat fur no matter how far away you stay from the cat, no matter how much you don't let the cat crawl all over you, you're going to be covered.

So I think she's going to have to explain away that she knew nothing about this, but also he is the one to invoke the attorney-client privilege, not her. So any communications between them, he can stop from coming in but she can testify to acts acts things he did and i want to remind everybody of another serial killer don't hear about him much his name was jerry brudos his wife darcy brudos was married to him about a decade, but she, quote, never noticed the trophies he brought home from killing sprees, including body parts that he stashed in the garage. But similar to the current case, Brudos forbade his wife Darcy from ever going into the attic or the garage I can guarantee you this woman never went in that secret room down in the basement

Prime stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now, Dr. Sherry Schwartz. And boy, do we need a shrink. Right on time, Dr. Sherry. Forensic psychologist specializing in capital mitigation at panthermitigation.com. Author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect. Okay, Dr. Sherry. now she files for a divorce? You know, but we got to give the woman a little leeway here because I see women all the time married to criminal defendants.

Either they don't see or they don't want to see what's happening. We understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, Kristen Thorne joining us, WABC Channel 7. I think the son may have some type of handicap, some type of developmental handicap. Now, then she's got the daughter with the bio dad is Rick T. Correct. daughter with the bio dad is Rick's human. So she's dealing with raising a son who has disabilities, which is very, very difficult to do. It's hard enough raising two children without developmental problems, but having one with

special needs, that's a whole other layer of complexity. And you know he's a crap husband. No way this guy's a good husband. So, Dr. Sherry, how is it that you don't know your husband is storing body parts in the attic? That's a really good question. If we're dealing with a psychopath, it's important that people know that they wear a mask, a fake persona, to hide who they really are. And it's not just a single mask. They construct different masks for people, different people, different situations.

And they use those masks to manipulate and get what they want. And these are also predatory individuals. So they know what to do and what to say to be able to manipulate and control people. And honestly, we don't know what kind of life she was living with this person. The mask that he was wearing in the house maybe was abusive and not so charming, right? And so, like you said before about the other serial killer not allowing the wife to go anywhere near the trophy room, that's entirely possible in this house. Wow. Joining me is Kristen Thorne, but I want to go now to Toby Wilson, forensic consultant specializing in DNA, serology, blood pattern analysis,

and you can find him at NoSlowForensics.com. Toby, what forensics do you believe were in that home and do you believe the wife's DNA, in addition to the hair, could be on the victims? Also, very important, in that room in his basement that was locked, that he wouldn't let anyone go into, how should that be processed? That's really important. Well, the whole house needs to be processed with a fine-tooth comb, just in case. But then that room is going to take a you know be focused on because it is locked and we know from experience um that serial killers tend to have layers that they

keep so that they can go back and relive the the murders that they're doing so when it comes to that room um i'd be taking it down to you know the studs looking for evidence uh hair evidence um this case being this old the the evidence that's probably going to be most likely found um uh is going to be trace evidence like the hairs and the fibers and things of that nature but you never know um yeah so processing it's going to have to be very thorough uh along with the rest of the house but especially that room um the cat here is an interesting thing because as those of us with cats are aware you know

the hair sticks to everything except the cat and they can forensically test those cat hairs to demonstrate that they came from a particular cat or a line or lineage of cat so if there are animal here is involved, that can become an interesting area of analysis. And then the use of the mitochondrial DNA in this case is fascinating because it's used more in ancestry than it is in forensics, but it has been available for forensic use since about 2000. And what it does is it shows you a genetic connection between the female side of the line. We don't know why male mitochondrial DNA doesn't pass on or disappears,

but we do know that female, that mitochondrial DNA is passed down through the mothers to their offspring and from the offspring to their offspring. And it doesn't really change unless there's a mutation. So it's used for demonstrating ancestry. You can follow it all the way back to, theoretically, Eve, the original mother for all of us. And it's used for identification purposes. They identified the bodies of the Romanov by using mitochondrial DNA. So it's a fascinating area.

And for them to have gotten, quite frankly, they got lucky. Finding hairs that match the wife associated with multiple victims, that takes it away from being a coincidence to a pattern. And then finding his hair also to demonstrate that it had to be in contact with him and not just the wife. Well, I'm very curious regarding if the wife ever tried to go down there and clean up or ever became curious, because I want to point out Paula Dietz. That name may not ring a bell, but her husband's name will certainly ring a bell, Dennis Rader. BTK, buy, torture, kill. The serial killer who was a dog catcher and had a wife and children, a deacon at his church,

so on, so on, so on. Catch this. Okay, I hope you're sitting down for this. His wife once found one of the poems he wrote about one of his murder victims. And at the time she stated the poem scared her. He lied to his wife claiming the poem was just a project he was working on about BTK for one of his college classes. And she believed it. I mean, I guess when you're in love, you're willing to believe the very best. To Dr. Tim Gallagher. Dr. Gallagher, I'm so happy you're with us today. Dr. Gallagher is the medical examiner for the state of Florida. You can find him at pathcaremed.com.

Lecturer at University of Florida Medical School Forensic Medicine and the founder and host of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Well, I would be completely in heaven there. Dr. Gallagher, I want to talk to you about the wife, about this wife, Ms. Allerup, who has just filed for divorce. And I want to also point out that BTK's wife filed for an emergency divorce. You ever heard of that? An emergency divorce. And the court granted it. That said,

Dr. Gallagher, she says she's not involved. I believe her because the evidence tells me she wasn't involved. She was out of town during the time that three of the victims were murdered and killed. That said, how do you look at a victim's body at this juncture? How do you look back at what was processed at the time? How do you find DNA on a victim's body like this hair that belongs to the wife, like the hair that was found on one victim at the bottom of another burlap bag that belongs to the defendant, Rex Heuermann. How do you find this microscopic evidence that can prove someone, beyond reasonable doubt,

guilty of murder? How do you go about finding that on a body? Well, it's definitely not easy, and that's one of the reasons why we do value our technicians, our forensic technicians, so highly. Generally, what we'll do is we'll put the remains on a stainless steel table and we'll use, initially, very high LED or halogen type lighting hold on dr gallagher i'm trying to take notes go ahead you and bernarda go go go okay i'm ready halogen halogen lamp right

so we would use either led or halogen type lighting we would vary the angles to get the different views now wait a minute I had not thought of that. Cheryl McComb, did you hear that? So they get the halogen lamp and I don't know if it's this kind, but I imagine one that has a double, what would you say, neck to it that you can bend? Or maybe do you use a halogen like a flashlight, but halogen? What kind of light is it, doctor? Well, much like the operating room has the lights over the patient when they operate, we have the same exact model, which hangs from the ceiling, has many elbows to it,

and you can bend it and position it in almost any direction. Did you hear that, Cheryl? How would you like to be there? I mean, I've been to autopsies, but I didn't notice this happening, where they actually angle the halogen lamp in different angles to try to make sure they don't miss a hair or a fiber or in anything. Well, Nancy, that also happens and they will assist me when I go to the autopsy so that I can take photographs as they're going. You just have all the fun, don't you? Okay, Dr. Gallagher, you left off at where you angle the halogen lamp. Are you

looking through some type of a magnifier lens? We do have hand magnifying lenses, but we also use digital photography very extensively where we can download the picture to a computer and enlarge the picture you blow it up with your fingers or you look through your lens and you blow it up to see something. I just recently had to do that, getting a splinter out of Lucy's foot. Because of that process, Gallagher's talking about right now. Okay, as you can see, Dr. Gallagher, there are going to be many stops and starts to this answer. Go ahead. Right. And so basically what we're looking for are things that are unusual or unexpected on decomposed remains or remains. For instance, a cat hair or a dog hair, animal hair looks a lot different than human hair. It's very coarse. It's usually straight, and it's a different color

than the head hair. So we will collect that. And you have to remember that when the body is picked up, it goes through a lot of different people. For instance, the people who process the scene, you have to make sure that they don't leave hair on the remains. People who transport the body, they don't leave hair on their remains.

So everything has to be collected and then traced back to the livery service, the people who are helping you make sure it's not from them. And then by default, it would be from the remains. And then that would be from the scene and we can process that piece of a dna or that piece of trace evidence for identification processes so you spot it where it becomes more this is toby where it becomes more complex though is yes you're doing a visual examination using um uh oblique lighting to spot things or look for things that are out of place. But when you get to processing actual crime scenes, rooms, things like that, like say the room at his house, you use a vacuum cleaner.

They have special vacuum cleaners that they use or vacuums that they use that have collection containers on them. And they basically vacuum up the rooms to catch as much hair and as much trace material as possible which is a nightmare from the analyst's point of view because they have hundreds if not thousands of this debris that they have to sort through but you know they they'll process the crime scenes or potential crime scenes like that room in his house by using these vacuums to collect all the trace evidence. Cheryl McCollum, we have many, many times encountered the use of the vac.

Explain. The MVAT? Yeah. It is probably one of the best tools right now to extract DNA off items, and it can be taken to the crime scene. So you don't have to just take everything and get it back to the lab. You can do it right there.

And it's a system that almost looks like the vacuum cleaner you can rent to do like a steam clean. It shoots out solution and sucks it back up at the exact same time. And then it filters through a system that leaves the DNA at the top. And you have this DNA that you can get from a rock, from rope, from wood floors to a victim's body.

So to me, it's the best thing going right now to extract DNA off potential evidence. But can I make another point about what they're doing right now at that scene? Please do. Yeah, if this was my scene, I would be going into the walls and I would be taking up the flooring after I did everything else. He's got places that he could potentially hide things, but this is what you're watching. They do not know right now how everything connects, how every piece of a puzzle that they're finding is going to give you this overall picture. They don't know what could be a trophy. So when you see them taking out the dolls and taking robes and taking jewelry and taking pictures,

all of these things they're going to collect, even if they don't know how it fits right now, that's what they're doing later as well. Hey, I'm so glad you said that, Cheryl McCollum. Back to Kristen Thorne joining me, investigative reporter, WABC. That's Channel 7 Eyewitness News. Also, she's the star of Hulu's true crime show, Missing. Kristen, what Cheryl just said, really important because I believe that there are other victims, whether they're in Vegas or South Carolina or

right there in the tri-state area at some other dumping site, which is entirely possible because we know he used Gilgo Beach because it was so convenient to his place. It's a 25-minute drive max, and in the middle of the night when he's dumping these bodies, it's probably more like an 18-minute drive. So we know he wants convenience in dumping bodies. We know that. I wonder if he was using the back of that Chevy Avalanche to transport bodies. But that said, things that are being taken out of the home could link to other victims, not just the Gilgo Beach victims, but beyond. Because if he is a souvenir keeper, a trophy keeper, he'll have trophies from other women, not just these women, Kristen. Absolutely. And Nancy, that's why they're spending so much time at this house. You know,

I've covered crime scenes and homicides for what, almost 20 years. And to still have investigators at this house nearly a week later tells you that they are ripping that house apart. They are going through every single inch of it. And I loved hearing from your experts about these different tools that they use. I had no idea that that's what they're using, how fascinating that is. But that's why that work is so important and why they have to be so careful and why they're spending all this time at that house and at those two storage units, because they do need to get down to the studs. They're going to have to do that. This is Toby to interject. When you're taking apart a house or a car or anything, people are not very good at cleaning up blood. And one of the places where

it's not unusual to find large amounts that they've missed is when you pull up the carpeting. You may get it to the point of looking like the carpet's clean. That padding under the carpet is a big sponge. I can't tell you how many cars or crime scenes I've been at where we were asked to remove the carpeting to see what was under it. And we found enormous amounts of biological materials in the form of blood that, you know, hopefully has not deteriorated to the point where we can't analyze it. But it's there. It lasts for very long periods of time because you can't see it and it's protected. I agree completely. They are doing a systematic demolition on that house. I pray they are. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Guys, in the last hours, literally, the wife of alleged serial killer Rex Heuermann has filed for divorce. I think we know why. And we're talking about how you can ignore signals. We learned that police are now interviewing sex workers across the board, trying to find out if any of them know anything regarding Rex Heuermann. But I want to talk about Linda Yates, her husband, a prolific serial killer, we believe murdered up to 18 people, most of them either sex workers or with drug problems, she thought he was cheating on her because she would find evidence he was staying at pay-by-the-hour local motels in Spokane. He claimed when she confronted him that he just wanted to use the hot tub to help his aching joints. When she found blood in a vehicle, he claimed he had hit a dog and had tried to save it. So it seems to me that these spouses are willing to accept whatever story the killer tells them. Kristen Thorne, so many developments all at once. I'm very curious what you think and what it means, which I'll go to the rest of the panel on this, that Rex Heuermann actually called one of the victim's sisters and taunted her.

To me, that means he was very amateurish. He wasn't thinking about leaving a trail. And his sadomasochism was at such a high level, well, actually just sadism, that it overtook his common sense because he enjoyed calling her, taunting her from the victim's cell phone. What do you make of that, Kristen Thorne? What can you tell us about it? Not just taunting her. He told her and we've the family has put this out there in the media years ago that they had received this phone call. They tried to keep it quiet for a little bit and then they put it out. But not only did he taunt them, he told them, the sister, what he did to Melissa Bartholomew, how he raped her, how he killed her. And they immediately notified authorities. Authorities traced where

this call may have come from, which of course is Midtown Manhattan, which we know around Penn Station, but close enough to where Rex Herman's office was. And they couldn't find anything, obviously. But, you know, when you look at the timeline, Nancy, your expert the other day brought up a very interesting point. You know, Maureen, the first victim disappeared in 2007. Melissa was 2009. So there was a little bit of a gap there. And I wonder if because one of your experts mentioned with serial killers and psychopaths, that they get deeper and deeper into their behavior, right, the sick behavior. And I wonder if after Melissa disappeared, if he thought this phone call was the next step, correct? This next step in this process of becoming this killer. And to call the family and to do that is such a level of

depravity. And to leave that with the family for all of this time. Nancy, I also want to tell you that the sex workers that I've been talking to that are currently working in New York City, and they are on sites that obviously I am not on, and most people that I know are not on for the work for getting clients. There's a lot of talk in the sex worker community right now in the New York Tri-State that women had gone to police about Rex Sherman and their agencies that they worked for had gone to police because he was a problematic client. And that's something I definitely want to try to figure out. We know that the sex worker community is not listened to. These

women are disregarded. And so if there was, you know, agencies out there that had notified police about this problematic client, that is certainly concerning. It really is. So many red flags of alarm were waved like the matador cape in front of the bull, nothing was done uh speaking of take a listen our cut 78 our friend stacy sager abc7 former escort nikki brass who says heurman solicited her approximately eight years ago i had a really really bad feeling like my gut was like telling me i needed to get away from him especially when he actually mentioned the Gilgo case, she says. When he talked about it, he would like speak in a day and hypothetical, but he had this like smile on his face that made me really uneasy. She ended the date early. Okay, to Dr. Sherry Schwartz joining us, forensic

psychologist. We've seen that many times before, the defendant having a peculiar interest in the case prior to his arrest, fixating on it, watching TV reports, just compulsive Google searches, trying to find out. And in this case, Heuermann was apparently searching all of the victims, the police movements, and the victims' families, their whereabouts, what they look like as the years passed. What do you make of it, doctor? Well, it's really interesting because we have a true crime-obsessed culture because it's interesting. These cases are very fascinating. But when it wades into the water of looking at police movements in the case, that's not normal, right? So if somebody's looking into the murders

because it's interesting to them, they maybe want to try to solve the case, they want to try to understand who's doing this, that's normal behavior. It becomes abnormal when they're obsessed with the police investigation in the case and really doing what they can to track that information. And that is when you have to take a very, very close look at this person. Why would they have such an interest

in that if they're not a former law enforcement officer or they're not a current investigator who might be interested in getting in on trying to solve the case? If you have information or think you have information, please dial 1-800-220-TIPS. 1-800-220-TIPS. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.