Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Wife Slams Down Phone when HUBBY CONFESSES TO DELPHI DOUBLE MURDERS ON JAILHOUSE PHONE

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

Accused killer Richard Allen has confessed, according to recently-released court documents.  Allen made a phone call to his wife and in that call, admitted several times that he killed Libby German and Abby Williams. Allen's wife abruptly hangs up the phone. All calls from jail are recorded.  Allen's attorney says the admissions were caused by Allen's decline in his mental health, which prompted the attorney to ask for Allen to be moved to another jail. The judge has not ruled on the move yet.  We also know that the girls' injuries were caused by a sharp object. Some articles of clothing from the girls were missing from the scene, including a pair of underwear and a sock. Most of the girls' clothing was found south of the girls' bodies. Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson - High-profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent, Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County), and Author: "Arrest-Proof Yourself;" Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw  Kevin Greenlee – Indiana Attorney, Co-Creator of the "Murder Sheet" podcast, and Founder of the Facebook Group: “The Murder Sheet Discussion Group”  Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive    Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host of "Zone 7" podcast; Twitter: @149Zone7 Chris McDonough -Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Host of "The Interview Room" on YouTube Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Twitter: @JosephScottMorg Aine Cain – Journalist, Co-Creator of  the "Murder Sheet" Podcast, and Founder of the Facebook Group, “The Murder Sheet Discussion Group” See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A bombshell for the state's case and the Delphi prosecution. The case regarding the murders of Abby and Liberty, 13 and 14 year old girls that were brutally murdered. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. This is the bombshell. Has the prime suspect actually given a confession? Did he know he was being recorded?

Doesn't matter. Did he give a confession? Take a listen to our friends at WRTV. The judge deciding that the public should see 118 of the 136 documents that have been filed through the courts. The documents reveal the following. Richard Allen admitted to his wife in a jailhouse phone call to killing Abby and Libby several times. His wife hung up the phone. The documents also reveal for the first time how the girls died, saying an autopsy revealed their wounds were caused by a sharp object. Documents go on to say that the girls' clothes were found down the creek, but a pair of underwear

and a sock was missing from the crime scene. Is it true that he was recorded talking to his wife and admitting he murdered these two little girls, forcing them down off that trestle bridge and then murdering them? Take a listen now to our friends at CBS4. Now, the other thing that really sticks out in these documents is that back in April, Richard Allen called his wife from prison and admitted several times that he killed Abby and Libby. That confession was brought up at Allen's last court hearing, and it happened right around the time that his defense attorneys claimed that his mental health was declining and that he needed to be moved and complaints about the CI Correctional Institution, the jail that he's in, from which he's making these calls. We'll get to that, but this is not just about confessions, alleged confessions. Take a listen to our cut 112, our friends at WTHR.

And for the first time, we learned that investigators believe a knife was used in the murders. Court records say articles of clothing from the girls were missing from the scene, including a pair of underwear and a sock. Clothes from both girls were found down the creek. And four other girls also saw the man on the bridge that day and described him as kind of creepy. And he seemed to be in a grumpy mood. And a woman says she later saw the man in the bridge video walking down the road wearing a blue jacket and jeans. He was muddy and bloody, she said, and looked like he had been in a fight.

Dear Lord in heaven, when I think about what happened to these two girls. Joining me in All-Star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first to the host of a new hit series, Zone 7, also founder of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl McCollum, joining us. Cheryl, we said from the beginning, as did you, Joe Scott Morgan, there's no way he did not take a souvenir from the scene, which is completely creepy. And I'll bring in Dr. Bethany on this in a moment. But I like to scrapbook all things about my children, John, Dave and Lucy, my twins. But for a killer, they say mementos like I put in a scrapbook, like a sock, like a pair of underwear.

You said it on day one, Cheryl, and I agree with you. Yep. There was no chance he didn't take a souvenir. This was, in a really twisted way, the biggest thing he's ever done in his life. He wanted something to remember it by. So, I mean, again, sadly, I mean, you and I tell people this all the time. When we're right, it's not good news. And, you know, Joe Scott Morgan, a search of his home, did not turn up the underwear,

but that does not mean that he didn't take it. I want you to analyze what we're learning from this female witness. I haven't even gotten to the admissions. I'm going to go to Anya Kane and Kevin Greenlee on that, but Joe Scott, help me. Guys, with me is Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University. I've been there, and they have an incredible criminal procedure and criminology department. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a brand new hit series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott, the fact that a woman sees defendant Richard Allen,

muddy and bloody. The day of the murders makes me sick to my stomach. Because that tells me, these girls did not die quickly. They were sex assaulted in one way or the other because their clothes

were taken off. One of them was missing her underwear. Muddy and bloody. They fought for their lives, Joe Scott. Yeah, down in that little holler down there beneath that bridge, I can only imagine, Nancy, how alone they were and how terrified. That area down there is so isolated, and there's no way, and I've talked to Mac about this over, God, how many years has it been now, Nancy?

We've sat around and chatted about this case over and over again. You know, you talked about the missing underwear, and, you know, we think about souvenirs and that sort of thing when you have these offenders that will do that, and they'll take it and they'll squirrel it away, rat hole it away so they can go back and relive. He took another souvenir with him as well and that's that transfer evidence on that clothing. One interesting thing that came out to me, Nancy, in a lot of stuff you're going to discuss, what really kind of hit me was this talk of this blue Carhartt jacket that he was known to possess, that his wife knew that he had.

And the fact that now we've got this witness that is saying that not only was he covered in mud, remember this is a river bottom or a creek bottom down in that area, so you're going to have a lot of transfer from that, but she saw blood. She saw blood on him, and he would have been bathed in it, Nancy, because we know there wasn't just one. There were two of these precious little girls that were killed. And I think when it all comes out, it's going to be anything beyond our wildest nightmares

that we can imagine what happened to. You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining me, high-profile psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills, you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I would have to force Gerards when I would try cases to think about the facts of the case. There's something about the way Joe Scott just said it. Two little girls the age of my little girl. And you know how tiny and

petite my little Lucy is. Just beautiful on the inside and out. Down there in the mud under a bridge alone. We know that they were unclothed and we know know that they were

unclothed and we know now that they fought. What demon from hell would make two little girls strip and then fight

them? He was covered in mud and covered in blood. I mean, he is straight from the devil's bedroom. And she's just awful. Who can do that to two little girls? You know, Nancy, I had the same thought as Joe Scott Morgan was talking. He paints a vivid picture of what these little girls went through. And in terms of this guy straight from hell, I mean, remember, he worked at the local CBS. So not only was he a sex predator, but he's kind of like a spider weaving a web, just waiting for little girls to come in and out. I mean, this guy was probably waiting to rape two little girls and was surveilling everybody in that little town, everybody coming into the CVS, probably walking around in the woods waiting for two little girls. You know, in terms of who was he? Well, at the most benign

level, he's a pedophile. You know, not all pedophiles act out, but he's a pedophile that did most do and he's a pedophile that acted out. He is somebody who wants to control and possess children. He probably was a sadist. In other words, that he got off on inflicting cruelty on these little girls. I wonder if we're going to find out that their genitalia was mutilated or some other evidence like that on the bodies. I'm sure that there was something about inflicting terror on them that was sexually satisfying to him. Who was he psychologically? This is a man who masturbated quite a bit while thinking about children. And at some point in his masturbatory life, that was not enough. He graduated to controlling children

in his fantasy life, and then inflicting cruelty on children, and then killing children. I've talked to pedophiles like this, where they describe a gradual escalation in not only their sexual fantasies and masturbatory life, but then what they searched for online in order to satisfy those fantasies. And invariably, as they tell the story, they say something like, you know what, I couldn't get off just looking at children. So then I had to look at children who've been kidnapped. Well, then I had to look at children who had bags over their heads. You know, then I had to, it goes on and on and on. And I usually discover that that's actually a rationalization, that they were sexual sadists from the get go. But they're just

telling me a certain kind of story to make it seem as if they had to graduate to worse and worse fetishized fantasies in order to increase their sexual excitement. Whereas in fact, that's what they were to begin with. That's how they came into this world. And I would think on the day that these girls were murdered, this guy was probably, I'm sorry to use the word sexual so many times, but I think he was in some kind of a sexual frenzy and he was going to do as much harm as he could to these poor little girls in order to, I don't know, excite himself, to masturbate, to have a sense of dominance, a sense of being at the center of the world. And then that was not enough.

Then he had to take objects from them to continue his masturbatory life, because that's what these trophies are all about. Remember, this was the expended round, not expended round, but the ejected cycled round from his weapon, which was found in the two girls. Guys, you're hearing Dale Carson, renowned criminal defense attorney, joining us out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction. Not only veteran trial lawyer, but former FBI agent and author of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can find him at Dalecarsonlaw.com. That's a whole nother animal right there, the fact that this was at Valentine's Day, the occurrence, the murders. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace anya kane is joining us journalist and co-creator of the murder sheet podcast along with kevin

greenlee he was also joining us not only co-creator of the Murder Sheep podcast, but lawyer as well in the Delphi jurisdiction, which is Indiana. Let's focus on what we do know, and that is there is evidence that more than one confession was given. Tell me about it, Anya Kane. And of course, we wouldn't know any of this if it hadn't been for you and Kevin Greenlee filing a motion for documents and evidence to be released to the public, which I'm also going to address. But can I talk about the confessions? How many confessions are we talking about? To whom? And does anybody in their right mind not know the jailhouse calls are being recorded?

I mean, every X number of seconds you hear a recording go, this is from a correctional facility. Everybody knows that it's being recorded. Why did this idiot give a confession to his wife? Right. And it's one of those things where, I mean, this to us is like the bombshell contained in both these documents and the recent June 15th hearing in the case, because we're learning that it's not one confession. It's five to six confessions. And it's not to a jailhouse snitch who might be unreliable. It's to his wife on a recorded line. As you said, he has no expectation of privacy, whether he's in jail or prison. So prosecutor can absolutely use this. Now, where the defense

is coming in and where they're going to try to pick this apart is saying, hey, it's not really a confession. It's just a bunch of incoherent, incriminating statements. And, you know, he's kind of losing his mind right now because of bad prison conditions. So that's their point. Prosecution is going to be saying, listen, no one was coercing him here. This is his wife. I mean, she is so upset by this exchange. She hangs up on him. Do you have any idea what his actual words were, Anya? No, that's the crucial thing, right? The transcript. What did he say? Did he have details? Was this all over the course of one phone call or was this like a ramping up over time?

And so we don't know exactly what he said. We do know that his defense attorney characterized it as totally incoherent and inconsistent. So he's basically saying, don't listen to that. He's just basically losing it and saying whatever. And so that's his characterization. But we do know that prosecutor Nick McCleland, he's been focused on this and he's been saying multiple confessions, you know know an innocent person doesn't do this and that basically mcleanland is saying that yes he is having a mental deterioration but it's because he's you know because the case it's because he feels guilty it's because he's losing control and it's because the world has found out that he's the prime suspect in a double murder of two little girls before that he was carrying on perfectly fine

at his job at CVS. Kevin Greenlee with me, Indiana lawyer, co-creator of the Murder Sheet podcast. Also, if it weren't for Kevin Greenlee and Anya Kane and the Murder Sheet podcast, who filed a motion for the release of documents and evidence, we wouldn't know about all this. So, you know, Kevin Greenlee, from your work on Murder Sheet Podcast, but also as a lawyer, they may, the defense may try to claim Obowate. He was talking to his wife, husband, wife, privilege. You can't use that statement in court. Number one, apparently there are other confessions he made we hope to

other people but also if a third party is present during that otherwise privileged communication that defeats the privilege so if you say something to your spouse and somebody else is there like you're at a cocktail party and go hey by, by the way, I did that murder. And there's somebody else standing there. You don't have a privilege. And here, this is at a jailhouse, on the phone, where everyone knows or should know, the phone calls are recorded. And there are other people around that could have overheard him. So that defeats any husband-wife privilege claim.

I absolutely agree that this phone call is not covered by privilege, especially since it was recorded. Privilege at the very most would mean that Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's wife, would not be forced to testify about this phone call. But we don't even need her testimony because we have the actual recording. And both Richard Allen and his wife were aware that it was being recorded because as you mentioned that's constantly said and repeated throughout the course of the phone call and also we do know he did confess to at least one other person because in the court document it indicates he also confessed in some manner over the phone to his mother well I can tell you right, there is no mother-son privilege.

And we learned that, well, it came to the public's consciousness during the Monica Lewinsky incident with Clinton because her mother was called to a grand jury and she did not want to go. She went kicking and screaming. But there is no parent-child confidentiality. You either have to be held in contempt if you don't testify, or get up on the stand and tell the truth, or get up on the stand and lie and commit perjury. Those are your three choices as a parent to a suspect. Guys, a lot happening, but we heard Anya describing, Anya Cain joining us describing defendant Richard Allen the Delphi murders of Abby and Libby I don't want

their names lost in the sauce as mentally deteriorating now we've learned one thing he's doing behind bars is he's taking the papers that his defense lawyers are giving him, motions, notes, whatever, wetting them and eating them. Cheryl McCollum joining me, star of Zone 7 podcast, Cold Case Research Institute founder. Cheryl, I had a defendant that I was planning to try for murder. And he would, there's no nice way to put it. I'll say defecate. Okay, I'll go with that.

In his jail cell and then smeared on the walls. And the defense couldn't wait to tell me about it. That guy was acting out to try and get an incompetency defense. What he's doing right now in jail doesn't matter. That goes to incompetence that you can't help your lawyer. What would help him, if anything, would be an insanity defense. Did you know right from wrong at the time of the incident? Now, I don't believe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do. They have the insanity defense.

Don't you have the insanity defense, Kevin Greenlee in Indiana? Yes, we do. Okay. It's Idaho that does not recognize an insanity defense. So I would counter that claim, Cheryl, with the fact that he hid evidence, acted normally after the murders, went back to work, was even photoed with his wife at a bar celebrating something. Like, it wasn't a Hooters, but a Hooters-type bar. And right above his head is, do you know this man?

And there was a, do you remember that shot? And there was a composite drawing of him. And he's sitting right under it. 100%. You know, holding up a beer. He's fine. And he can water down all of his defense motions all he wants and eat him with a sterling silver fork, for all I care. Doesn't matter.

Nancy. Who is this there's dale go ahead you're talking over cheryl by the way what you look at the photograph or sketch behind his head you will notice an interesting thing the guy is thin he's got long hair and no facial hair and our alan has short hair and facial hair now. So the preparation may not be for an insanity defense. The preparation may be for incompetent to proceed, which avoids the death penalty for a period of time until this all goes away and is forgotten in memory unless you keep it in the forefront. You know what I'm going to say to you, Del Carson one i don't like anything you just said but as i often say to the twins when they're saying something that i don't like i just say that over and over

wait was that not intelligent enough okay what jump in can i can i talk over Cheryl and Dale Bowles? As if I could stop you. The wetting the papers, eating them, whatever he's doing. You know, there's a fancy word for that in my field. It's called malingering. Malingering is when you make up some fictitious disorder in order to get out of some negative consequence. Like act like you have a brain tumor so you don't have to be, go to the army to, you know, serve your duty or to go to jail or something. So he's acting crazy so that he can, you know, get out of whatever consequences for this crime.

But furthermore, this confession to his wife, I don't hear it so much as a confession, as telling her before all the facts get to her. And also he could be trying to get her to hide evidence. So, you know, that goes to sort of this really clever, plodding, devious part of him, the same part of him that murdered and sex assaulted these girls. All at the same time,

he's acting sort of crazy and disheveled and mentally ill. And, you know, I just think it's messy. I think what these defendants do in jail all the time it's kind of a predictable routine jackie is waving her arms all right nancy i got a corner of the studio wait i just want you to know this cheryl and she's right she wants me to remind everybody a team of two psychiatrists and one psychologist evaluated alan April 14 and, quote, determined Alan did not need involuntary medication and that he was eating and sleeping just fine.

Just fine. Okay, jump in, Cheryl. Okay. The not eating was self-imposed. I said it from day one. This was a hunger strike so or a child killer as the lowest of the low. Everybody knows those folks are not exactly safe inside. Who has written a letter about the abuse and mistreatment? Another pedophile.

So birds of a feather once again. So this letter that this pedophile wrote says that he believes that Richard Allen, they threatened his life. They told him he needed to kill himself. And then he names names. But you want me to believe you're in there as a child molester, so you're already not safe. Now you've written this letter that's been published in front of God and country where you name the people that are supposedly going to kill Mr. Allen. And now you're a snitch. Now you're a snitch.

Guys, it's not just the confessions that are the huge torpedo to the defense case. Take a listen to our cut 108. Richard Allen was interviewed by a DNR officer the day Libby German and Abby Williams were murdered. He told them he was on the Monon High Bridge that day, but that interview went nowhere until it was re-examined in September of last year. Now, shortly after that interview resurfaced, investigators interviewed both Allen and his wife. Following that interview, they applied for a search warrant for Allen's home. Now, this is one of these new documents that we got today, that search warrant, and according to that, they seized a handgun and several bullet cartridges. You may

remember investigators claimed that a bullet found between the girls' bodies had been cycled through Richard Allen's gun. This is integral. Two things out of what we just heard. Number one, Richard Allen was acting perfectly normally when he was interviewed immediately after the murders, soon after the murders, as was his wife. And don't you know the wife had no idea? She finds out about it over a jailhouse phone call and immediately hangs the phone up. So he was just fine, working, acting normally, going out to bars and restaurants. Everything was as normal until now. He starts eating his defense papers behind Bar I Won't Eat. I remember Ted Bundy did that, too. He lost weight intentionally so he could escape. But that said, why is it so critical that they perform the search

at the home? Take a listen to our friends at ABC 7. Lawyers for Richard Allen have filed a motion asking that key ballistics evidence be thrown out at trial. Allen is accused of killing Abby Williams and Libby German in 2017. According to investigators, an unfired bullet was found between their bodies. It reportedly came from a gun belonging to Allen. That's why they don't want that evidence in, because that weapon matches back to a bullet found at the crime scene. And no, I don't think the girls were shot. I think a sharp knife was used. Joe Scott Morgan joining us, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. You and Chris McDonough,

director of Cold Case Foundation and star of The Interview Room, take a listen to our cut 113, our friends at WTHR. Police searched Allen's home last October. They seized a handgun, which investigators believe Allen used in the crime and matches an unspent bullet found next to the girl's bodies.

About 10 hunting and utility knives were also confiscated, along with a blue Carhartt jacket and other clothes. Investigators also took carpet samples and swabs from the seatbelts in Allen's Ford Focus vehicle that they believe was seen on the trail that day. And Allen admitted in two different interviews that he was on the bridge that day. He says he went out on the bridge to watch the fish. Watch the fish? My rear end?

Listen, that water is so far beneath the trestle bridge. What fish is he watching at that distance? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. And they've got one heck of a criminology department. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet and host of a hit series, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, unspent bullet. Many people would say, how can you match an unfired bullet back to a gun?

It was, quote, cycled through Richard Allen's gun. How do you prove that? Yeah, this weapon that he owned, Nancy, is a Sig Sauer, which is a brand of handgun that he possessed. And he had had it for a number of years, for quite some time, actually, according to reports.'s here's the the baseline unlike a fire ground that goes down the down the barrel where you have the lands and grooves that are created uh the markings are created on a fire projectile it's a very specific ballistic signature. What they're talking about is a cycled round, which is actually on the brass casing. So you have what are called extractor marks and ejector marks on the surface of these little brass cylinders that make up the live round.

And they're marks that are left behind on actually the sides of the brown of the brass tube okay of the of the uh of the projectile and also on the base of the projectile as well now this is not a solid ballistic evidence to say a hard bullet but it still matches up to this weapon and they've run it through the lab and these are going to be little striped marks on the side. So they're saying that that round that was down near the bodies had actually been ejected out of this weapon. So what that means is, is that he would have pulled,

this is a semi-automatic handgun. He would have pulled the slide back. Okay. And the round would have pulled the slide back okay and the round would have gone flying through the air and it landed probably in leaves or in the grassy area adjacent to the body and they were able uh they were able to recover this i thought about this somewhat nancy and this is almost like you know when we think about that, the mode of death is going to be some kind of sharp force event. I think that this weapon, this me, half-ass fictional villain where he's threatening these little girls with this weapon

and just acts like you would see in some kind of movie from Hollywood. He's pulling that slide back. It's making the sound, and it makes a very distinctive metallic clink as you pull it back. That round ejects out, and it slams forward it's going to threaten them he can get them to do whatever he wants to do remember what he said up on the bridge down the hill down the hill was he demonstrating that weapon at that moment in time he gets them down there he's got them corralled in this pre pre preset location

and he threatens him with this weapon he pulls it back to demonstrate how menacing he is and he can get them to comply these two little girls or he's demonstrating that he's the man he has the weapon he's like the big guy like like maybe he's one of these men who feels small in society. But in relation to these two little girls, he feels powerful. He feels big. So part of it might be that he's acting menacing. I'm sure Joe Scott Morgan is more right than I am. But it also has a celebratory quality. Like we're near the 4th of July.

People are shooting fireworks into the air. It's like an act of jubilation. And it could be that this was his greatest moment of glory, too, because it was shot into the air, not at them. Kevin Greenling joining me, Indiana lawyer and co-creator of the Murder Sheet podcast. Kevin, isn't it true that when one of the girls who was taking the picture of the perp walking forward toward them on that bridge, didn't one of them mention a gun? Yes, it is true that one of the girls mentioned a gun on that recording. And it's also true that that recording picked up the audio of a gun being clicked. Please say that again and very slowly. I want everybody to hear that because up until we get information, because of you, Kevin Greenlee, and Anya Kane, we didn't know all this.

This has only recently come to light. Would you say that very slowly? Let it sink in. On that recording, one of the girls mentioned the fact that this man has a gun. And also on that recording, it picks up the sound of a gun being flipped. Chris McDonough joining me, director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, host of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, you're hearing what Joe Scott said and what Kevin Greenlee said.

Can you just imagine if you even let yourself, let your mind go there? These two little girls down there in that mud under that bridge and this a-hole takes out a gun and Greenlee says you can hear it where he, I guess, turns the chamber or menaces them with the gun. You can actually hear it. One of the girls still had her cell phone on and recording. What do you make of this, Chris McDonough? Well, first of all, the victim that is seeing this gun is in pure terror at that moment, enough to share that information with her girlfriend and so it tells

us a couple of things also about the motive of the suspect he came to that place with two weapons the gun and now we learned that there was a knife involved so so he was preparing in his fantasy for any type of incident that potentially could present itself. So the knife, as he uses the gun to get them down the hill, as Joe was talking about, I can imagine him using that weapon to control as a complete control tool and get them into a place where he now has a hundred percent advantage but what's what's really horrifying about the death of these two children at the hands potentially allegedly if this is him is the fact that now he personalizes it to the knife and that's where the fantasy all of the pre-planning that the doc was talking about is now executed. And it's never the way they felt it was going to be. And obviously in this case, there was evidence that the children started to flay. He was not

prepared for that. And that's probably why we have the ejection of the round coming out of that gun, because, you know, he may have just kind of racked that slide back and the round came out. And remember how close to the vest cops held all the evidence, Cheryl McCollum. We didn't know at the beginning an unspent round was found between the two girls' bodies. They didn't let that out, and it was a good thing they didn't. Because once, later down the road, when they perform the search warrant on the home and they get that gun, then they can make the match. Don't you know, if he knew that bullet was at the scene, he would have gotten rid of that gun. That's right.

And there's a great possibility he didn't even realize it. When he's so intent on making them terrified and he racks that weapon, clearly pointing at one of them, then he may or may not even be aware that the bullet was left there. But Nancy, I want to go back to the bridge. Remember in the beginning, you and I had many conversations that I believed that picture that everybody put out was him turning around. He is way too close to the right side of that bridge and looks to me like his hips are coming back into the middle of the bridge. And I said from the very beginning, no 14-year-old girl is going to videotape a man without something overtly already happening. I still believe he passed them, maybe showed them the gun. And then when he turned around, they knew, okay, something bad is going on. If you

look at his right hand, his right elbow is bent. If he thinks he's going to brandish that weapon again as he's turning around, that is no doubt how he controlled them to get them to go down to the hill to walk all the way to the place that he had already pre-picked out for the murder scene. There's no doubt in my mind. Then he cuts their throats, I believe. I've always thought that's what he did because there's no screaming, there's no gunfire, nobody hears anything, even though there's other people walking around. Then he stages the scene, he takes the items, and he walks back to his car that's parked too far away. This is not a dude that was in shape. He wouldn't park far away to then go hiking. That don't make no sense.

Anya Kane joining us, co-creator of Murder Sheet Podcast. Explain, you and Kevin explain why you filed the motion that has helped uncover all of this evidence. First you, Anya. Absolutely. This case has been plagued by mystery from the beginning. The public wants to know who killed these beautiful girls. Why did this happen? Are we safe? Are our children safe? And for a lot of good reasons, I think may turn out to be the crucial decision that solves this thing. If Alan is convicted and, you know, the jury finds goes that way. So I think, you know, but now is the time that we're going into trial,

that people need to know that this case has been investigated properly and that things are preceding pretrial in a proper way. And I can I just say thinking about those two girls and then commenting on that bullet I feel like they may have helped solve their own case here because that information was used by investigators kept quiet by investigators and ultimately matched to this gun potentially and so I mean I just the bravery that they displayed under such unimaginable circumstances just really stands out to me. It really does. Kevin Greenlee, what moved you and Anya to file this motion so this evidence could be made public? Basically, this is one of the most important investigations in the history of the state of Indiana.

And I believe the people of this state, the people of this country, the people of the world have a lot of questions about how it was conducted and how different resources were used and whether or not mistakes were made or whether or not decisions were made properly that we just didn't have the information to evaluate at the time. And so much of that was being kept secret and it was being kept secret, in our opinion, unnecessarily. So we filed this motion with the judge, basically saying, if there's no reason to keep these documents secret anymore, since we're entering this trial phase, please just go ahead and release as much as you can. And we were really gratified and pleased that she agreed with us and ended up releasing some of these documents. Thank you to Kevin Greenlee and Anya Kane for allowing us the

opportunity to evaluate the evidence as we know it now. Confessions match up with bullets, ballistics evidence. What more does the state have in its arsenal of evidence against Richard Allen? We wait as the evidence unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.