Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Will 'new' witnesses help Scott Peterson get a new trial?

Episode Date: September 1, 2017

An A&E docu-series suggests investigators ignored several witnesses who claimed to have seen Laci Peterson walking her dog at a time that would have excluded Scott Peterson as the killer. Nancy Grace examines the claim with forensics anthropologist Dr. Heather Walsh-Haney, psychologist Dr. Bethany Marshall and RadarOnline reporter Alexis Tereszcuk. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. The case of State v. Scott Peterson, to me, feels like it just happened yesterday. She just vanished, and it turned into a media storm within days. Please, please, please let her go. Bring her back. Guess what, Scotty? San Quentin's your new home. There was no biological evidence, no forensic evidence whatsoever, that pointed to the guilt of Scott Peterson. There's at least 11 witnesses that saw Lacey that day. This is all while Scott's at the office on his computer.

So, he's innocent. I wasn't the last one to see Lacey that day. There were so many witnesses. We saw her walking in the neighborhood after I left. The cops just never followed up on me earlier across the street. I remember when I was pregnant at the final stages. I could hardly walk. I would get in a wheelchair and get to a car, get to work, get in another wheelchair,

be wheeled to the set, and sit down in the anchor chair. The viewers never knew how bad it was. I really didn't realize it. My body was trying to die and my lungs were full of blood clots. I had no idea. I just knew I couldn't breathe. So I'm imagining what Lacey Peterson must have felt like when she went to walk her dog at over eight months pregnant. Oh, wait a minute. She didn't go walk her dog. That's just what Scott Peterson said in an effort to get out of a murder one charge. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. The raging war goes on as Scott Peterson and his family and defense team fight tooth and nail to get him out of jail. That's right. Scott Peterson in another legal battle right now trying to get out of jail after a jury convicts him in the murder of his nine-month pregnant wife, Lacey Peterson.

It all seems like it was just yesterday, but that is the legal process. It's still happening now. Can it be stopped? Joining me is an all-star group of experts. With me, Dr. Heather Walsh Haney, Florida Gulf Coast University professor. Alexis Tereszczuk, RadarOnline.com, who lived through the Scott Peterson trial with me. And renowned psychologist, Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of L.A. Ladies, thank you. Let's get right down to it. What it boils down to are newly discovered witnesses, or so the defense says,

that swear they saw Lacey at a time when police say she was already dead. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Let's start at the beginning. This has all been stirred up by an on-air special, a documentary about whether Scott Peterson is innocent. First to you, Alexis Tereschuk, RadarOnline.com. Tell me this. Who are these new witnesses that swear, swear, and it's just not one. It's like 10 or 11.

Who are these witnesses that say they saw Lacey Peterson alive and well after cops say she was dead? These are 11 witnesses. They are neighbors, but they're not next-door neighbors. They are people in the neighborhood who are now coming forward and saying, we told police we saw Lacey walking her dog. Then we saw the dog in the park. And they say this is after Scott Peterson would have gone to work so that this would completely exonerate him. And they said that nobody ever talked to them and nobody ever followed up with him. I find that very, very difficult to believe that nobody followed

up with them and nobody ever talked to them. And if they knew something about the case to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychologist joining me out of LA, why didn't they come forward? Why didn't they come forward, Nancy? You're absolutely correct. I was thinking about this from a social psychology perspective. It makes me wonder if these neighbors who, as Alexis pointed out, they're not primary neighbors, they're not next-door neighbors, if they feel left out and all of a sudden they want to insert themselves into the notoriety of the crime, you know, Scott Peterson is getting so much press again right now, and I think they want to attach themselves to his star, so to speak. Oh, who wouldn't want to be attached?

One reporter was up there. Wait a minute. Why would you want to attach yourself to Scott Peterson? I wouldn't call it a minute. Why would you want to attach yourself to Scott Peterson? I wouldn't call it a star. I'd call it maybe a train straight to H-E-double-L. It's just killing me now that I've given up cursing. But anyway, that's a whole nother can of worms. Go ahead. What do you think about these people just coming forward now? Because it's creating a big problem for prosecutors, Scott Peterson's conviction could very well be overturned because of these, quote, newly discovered witnesses who are right there in the neighborhood the whole time. So what's the deal, Bethany?

Well, you know, it's interesting, but I was reading a report about one of the interviewers at San Quentin, and they said that he's looking buff. He was shirtless. He has kind of a cushy environment he's in. He has a half basketball court that's available to him on the roof above where he's living now, above his single cell. And it makes me feel that these neighbors want to relive the excitement of the trial. They want to be a part of it at this point. And, you know, people fill in all kinds of things with their memory. They begin to tell themselves stories, they lie to themselves. And all of a sudden, the lie becomes truth. And I think that that's what's happening in this case.

You know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I could have gone the whole day and the whole evening without thinking about Scott Peterson without his shirt on. You know, a lot of people think Peterson is attractive. I never thought he was attractive. But I want you to listen to one person that found him very attractive. She thought she had found Mr. Right. Listen to this secretly recorded phone call that occurred on New Year's Eve when everybody else was out looking desperately for Lacey Peterson. Scott Peterson, her husband, was hiding from the press, but he did make time to get off one quick little phone call to his lover, Amber Fry. And this is what he says. Take a listen.

I can hear you. Hey. Yes. Okay, there you are. I'm talking. Okay, I'm like, stay still or something. I know. I'm making it work.

How was your New Year's? What's that? How was your New Year's? It's good, I just, I went to the bar now, so I came out of the alley. Quiet alley, is that nice? Yeah, it is. I could hear you. Very good. It's pretty awesome. Fireworks there, the Eiffel Tower, the people all playing their rock songs. Uh huh.

It's pretty funny. Well that's good, I'm glad you guys decided to go out. Yeah, I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out.

I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. I'm glad you guys decided to go out. power, which is very good for people not playing rock songs. Uh-huh. That's pretty funny. Well, that's good. I'm glad you guys decided to go out.

Oh, definitely. I can never remember your friend's name. I know Jeff, but you always say, oh, Fon Swan's name. And then we have Tuck Claw, a friend of ours. Thank you. Uh-huh. Oh, he's there too? Tuck Claw, yeah.

Good. Does that make a New Year's resolution? I don't really know. What was that? Should be. Should be? What should my New Year's resolution be? Oh, I don't know. That was my question.

I didn't think of that. I'll tell something good. Yeah, you'll have to tell something good. So, I'm going to go to the bathroom. Okay. I'm going to go to the bathroom. Okay. I'm going to go to the bathroom.

Okay. I'm going to go to the bathroom. Okay. I'm going to go to the bathroom. Okay. I'm going to go to the bathroom. Okay. I'm I didn't think of that. Uh-huh. Uh, I'll tell if I'm good. Yeah, you'll have to tell if you're good. So. So where are you headed? Um, well, I don't, did you get my message?

No. You didn't get, I, I. Did you? Yeah, I left, I left you a message because I was like, well, I hope you at least get that, but um, I was going to, or the San Francisco thing didn't't work out so i'm probably most likely gonna go later to sean's are you there hello as i mentioned earlier joining me in addition to renowned psychologist bethany marshall dr heather walsh haney forensic anthropologist also with me alexis therese chuck vader online.com dr heather walsh haney i mean now that bethany marshall i don't know how you work sex and physical attractiveness into every

scenario bethany but that's a whole nother can of worms let's talk about lacy for a moment scott peterson may be buff showing off his physique He has time to work out with weights and play basketball. My husband's out working right now, or he better be. Okay, he doesn't have time to go to the gym and get buff. All right. He may not be perfect, but he's perfect for me. Let's talk about Lacey. Dr. Heather Walsh Haney, tell me the condition. You know, just when I said this, I got chills down my arms because I know the answer. Tell me about the discovery of Lacey Peterson's body and what it means to you, Dr. Heather Walsh Haney. Well, to the best of my knowledge, she was discovered in saltwater on a beach in the relatively early ages of the process of decomposition. And what her remains really speak to is not only her horrible murder,

but the fact that women are killed by intimate partners, husbands and boyfriends, 13 times more often than we are killed by strangers. Her homicide is femicide. And when law enforcement started looking for the killer, they knew exactly where to look first to either get Scott Peterson out of the pool of possible suspects or collect evidence to focus upon him. And based upon my reading of the case, all of the scientific evidence that was put forth, including the forensic anthropology,

and I know the forensic anthropologist that evaluated Lacey, who is, she's an amazing woman and talented and puts her heart in all of her work. Hold on, hold on, hold on. This is something new to me. Who was the forensic anthropologist? Because I was very impressed with her at the time. Her name was Dr. Allison Galloway.

I have published with her. She has mentored me throughout my career, and her science is top-notch. And whatever evidence she presented at court, you know, was validated and meticulous. You know, Dr. Heather Walsh Haney, joining me, Dr. Walsh Haney is a forensic anthropologist, which is a very, very unique niche in the forensics field. Heather Walsh Haney can look or talk about a bone. And this is just amazing to me. She can tell you whether the bone is male or female.

She can look at a mouth, a skull, and tell you the age of the person, that there are ways to determine the descent of the person. Are they Caucasian? Are they African American? Are they Hispanic? Are they Asian? I don't know how you do it, but it's a very, very defined science. And it just mesmerizes me. I could listen to you talk all day. But I recall Dr. Heather Walsh Haney that, first of all, the baby washed ashore, baby Connor, baby boy.

You know how much I'd love to have another baby? I'll just put it out there. My husband runs the other way when I say that because he says two is enough. You know, we go to bed at midnight and get up at four with just two. But this little baby washed ashore, Dr. Heather Walsh Haney, and observers said that it looked like a little plastic shiny baby doll. Now, Lacey's body was very deteriorated. How did the baby look like a little baby doll, very pristine and untouched?

Oh boy, that would suggest to me that Lacey's infant was protected by her body for many, many hours before the infant was exposed to the elements. That's why there would be a difference in the state of decomposition between the two. Right. It's my understanding that a woman's uterus is one of the thickest linings or muscles in her body, and that over time, as Lacey washed back and forth in the waves, her uterus finally began to decompose. And at that point, baby Connor just really came out of the uterus, floated out of her uterus and washed ashore, got separated from his mommy, right? I've never had a horrific, sad case like that, but that is certainly possible.

I think that was the theory at trial. Wasn't that the theory at trial, Alexis Teresichuk? Because they could tell he had not been born vaginally, like a regular vaginal birth. And they could tell there had been no cesarean section done. One of the defense theories was that a woman had kidnapped Lacey and held her captive to get the baby or cut her stomach open to get the baby. But based on the body, that was not what happened at all. And the defense had even maybe floated the idea of a satanic cult kidnapping. And no, this wasn't that at all. The reports had said that the the baby's body was found with a rope tied around its neck and so that made people think that perhaps he had

been cut from her body but it was was a fishing line yes debris from the ocean so exactly no this was this baby was in her body for a very long time and probably right before they were found is when he was out you know know, Dr. Bethany Marshall, all these witnesses that are now coming forward, 11 in total, that's a pretty good amount of witnesses. If I were the state, I would be concerned. And what you said, Dr. Bethany, about them wanting to relive that excitement of the trial, what do you mean by that?

Well, I mean that this was a very exciting case at the time. You know, Nancy, this was the beginning of the 24-7 hour news cycle. And there was a lot of coverage of this case. And it could be that many of these people who were not primarily involved in the trial now want to be involved in the case in a primary way. And there was a lot of excitement and a lot of people live very boring lives. And it could be that they want to relive that excitement to carry it forward. You know, if I could piggyback on something Dr. Heather Walsh Haney said too, and it might relate to the neighbors, and that is that intimate homicide is such a problem in our society. When a woman is killed, it's often by someone that she knows. And you know, Nancy, when a woman is pregnant, she's at great risk for homicide if she's in a domestic violence type situation because often these fathers who are personality disordered like Scott Peterson,

they do not want to take up the responsibilities of fatherhood. And it's in the context of intimate relationships that all the emotions that lead to homicide take place. You know, anger, resentment, jealousy, envy, anxiety. And so to kind of link this back to the neighbors, I think this could have become almost like an urban myth in this neighborhood, this relationship, this beautiful wife, this so-called handsome husband, all the emotions that took place in this relationship. And, you know, we're removed. I mean, we're in the media and we talk about the case, but we're not in that neighborhood reliving the stories and trying to continue to figure out what happened between this husband and wife. You know, what's interesting is I walk the streets of that neighborhood so many times

and it's a beautiful little neighborhood. The streets are tree lined. The houses are small, but they all, have you ever been in a neighborhood where the houses are small, but they've all been like redone and repainted and the front yards are pretty and they've got all these cute decorations are straight out of HGTV, which I love. And it looks it's a lovely little neighborhood. And then when you go to the end of the street, there is a fence at one spot and there's an olive. I think it was an olive grove, an olive orchard right behind there.

It's Modesto, you know, which is a huge, huge farm and produce area. It's a beautiful place to raise a child. But speaking of these new witnesses, Alan Duke with me, the Duke joining me out of LA. Alan, is it A&E that's running the Scott Peterson special? Yes, and they're airing the third episode this week, but it's A&E. Yeah, and that has created a huge sensation, and the state is listening. Now, this is the problem I'm talking about for the state. Take a listen to what A&E managed to dig up. It's a little scary for the prosecution. I'm a private investigator here in Modesto. Scott hired Kirk McAllister for his attorney approximately three days after Lacey was missing. So Mr. McAllister hired me to see what happened to Lacey.

Over the next couple of weeks, I talked to witnesses that are able to very credibly identify Lacey walking the dog. During a time period, Scott is either at his warehouse or on his way to the Berkeley Marina. We believe that Lacey left home sometime after that to go walk the dog, and she would have headed this way down Covina Avenue. I speak with Homer Maldonado. He and his wife, who are neighbors, and sometime between 9.50 a.m. and 10 a.m., they go out driving to deliver some Christmas presents to friends.

When I pulled out on Miller Avenue, that's when I looked over to the right and I noticed a young lady struggling with a dog and very pregnant. The dog raised up, and I just remember telling him, I hope she doesn't fall. And then we just went about our business for that day. I speak to Tony Freitas, a route driver for a bread company here locally in Modesto. He sees a young woman who is pregnant walking a golden retriever on the Loma Avenue. At 10.08 a.m., Scott makes a telephone call to his voicemail that's actually triangulated by the police to verify he is on his

way to the warehouse. I speak to another witness, Mr. Aguilar. I was with my wife. We seen this lady running a little bit down Loma Avenue. She looked too pregnant to be out in the cold and no jacket, nothing. I told my wife, poor lady, she must be crazy. Between 10 a.m. and 10.30 a.m., we have more sightings. Their time periods coincide very closely. And then these witnesses that see her walking the dog plot out in a perfect circle about a 45-minute walk, which is normally what she took. If you look up here, you can see the area where Diana Campos would have been sitting, and that's where she observed someone matching Lacey's description walking the dog.

Two men were following Lacey, and the dog was barking at the men, and the two men yelled at Lacey, shut that f***ing dog up. If Diana Campos is correct in her observations, this might be the last sighting of Lacey Peterson alive on the 24th of December 2002. Right now, shockwaves are going through the courthouse there in Modesto because 11 witnesses have now come forward claiming that they saw Lacey Peterson alive and well after the police say she was dead, her body being taken to the San Francisco Bay and being dumped in a fishing marina. It took days, weeks.

But the body of their unborn child, baby Connor, washed ashore. And 24 hours later, and essentially the next tide, the mom, Lacey Peterson, washed ashore as well. Is the conviction of Scott Peterson now in jeopardy? A&E has come forward with a documentary that outlines the so-called new evidence and the state better be ready. Now, one of the state's most powerful witnesses was Scott Peterson's lover. Okay. And I've met her many times. She is not a scarlet woman that she's been made out to be. Amber Fry truly believes she found Mr. Right. Well, he was more like Mr. Right now. Okay, not really Mr. Right, because it wasn't long that she discovered not only was he married,

but married to a missing woman. Now, listen to Amber Fry herself as she explains how she fell for this guy, a fertilizer salesman. You know, we got a word for that. But how did she fall for him? I don't even find him attractive. Listen to Amber Fry in her own words. In 2002, I just put myself through massage school. My daughter was almost 18 months old. I felt really content and good where my life was going in Fresno. My friend Sean told me about this guy that she had met at a work convention. His name was Scott Peterson. She was like, he's perfect for you.

At this point in my life, I didn't need to randomly date different people, and I was looking for the one. And that's date different people. And I was looking for the one. And that's what Scott said. He was also looking for the one. I had no idea that I was being introduced to a married man. Straight out to psychologist, Dr. Bethany Marshall. What was she thinking, Dr. Bethany? You know, Nancy, I can only try to keep in mind that the features of what I think is his personality disorder, a sociopathic personality disorder. These men are so charming, superficial, glib. They are never tongue tied. The way they lie, it's the lies just roll off their tongue. And you know,

you know, Amber Fry is in front of the microphone, and she's sort of saying she's so sorry to the family. And I take a look at her, she looks so frail. She hasn't even combed her hair, really, it's sort of up in a bun. She looks, her hands are shaking. And I think she's contrasting in her mind this fertilizer salesman who is so charming with this whole family who's devastating. And she must have had such a shock when she realized what was really going on. But Nancy, I think he just conned her. I mean, the tape that they played on A&E where he says he's in Paris and he's with Pascual and, you know, she's chatting with him on the phone and he's right there in Modesto. Can you imagine if she had not been kind of prepped by the

police officers and by the press that he was really a potential felon, a potential wife murderer? How far she would have gone in this story before she really realized what was going on. Thank God she might have been another victim. You know, Alexis Tereschuk, at the time, I remember when Lacey first went missing, and it wasn't really a big story, and we were getting ready to do our live show that night on CNN's HLN. And it's like this with all the stories that we cover. Nobody really knows about it yet. And I heard about a missing woman, and I'm like, let's do that.

She's pregnant. We've got to help. We did it. And right at the get-go, Scott Peterson's affect was very unusual to me. But after we did that, it seemed like the case, the missing persons case, caught on fire. How could Scott Peterson really think Amber knew nothing about it? I guess that's why he kept laying low so he wouldn't be pictured. I think he lived in a complete fantasy world, which Dr. Bethany Marshall could talk about better than i could but he was doing basically everything that you would expect a criminal to do he sold lacy's car like five

seconds after she disappeared who does that wait a minute alexis he didn't just try to sell her car he tried to sell the house tried to get rid of the car and immediately before they even found her body only a couple of days passed before he ordered the porn channel for his house. You know what? That'll be a cold day in H-E-double-L. That what? I go out to walk the dog, and my husband orders the porn channel? That doesn't make sense.

But, Alexis, the news coverage was incredible. Remember? Because she was beautiful. She was eight and a half months pregnant. Everybody wanted to help find her. And he couldn't have been a bigger jerk. Honestly, he was laughing everywhere. He immediately spoke about Lacey in the past tense.

It was disgusting. Let's take a listen to Scott Peterson lying to Amber Fry on a secretly recorded phone conversation. Roll it. Again, so why did you fall through or go ahead and meet me and have this date and do all these things with me and tell me all these things? Why? For what purpose did I serve in your life during this last month? Amber, you changed me since last month. You're so special to me. You're amazing. And I just... And so what? Are you telling me your wife was not?

I cannot explain it all to you. Yeah, there's a lot of things you're not wanting to explain to me right now, Scott. No, I want to. You want to, but you can't because why? Too many people would be hurt. Too many people are hurt now if you're telling me this is international or national, don't you think? Yeah. So how is that going to put any more hurt than that's already out there now?

How would you think this wouldn't just break my heart to meet someone? And, you know, I even tell you where I'm at in my life. And, you know, I'm getting started in my own business. I just moved out from doing the chiropractic. And, you know, what I've been through in my life already to this day, you're very well aware of. We've spent many times on the phone or even together and me talking about these things. How could you possibly not think you being married would affect me? How?

I don't know how to answer that. I don't want to say it again. But, I mean, you obviously don't deserve this. I had no idea this was going to happen. Sounded like it. And I can't. No, no, Amber, no. Really?

I know you can't believe me. And you should know, but... I should? I should believe you that, no you can't have anything to do with her disappearance? I had nothing to do with it. By God, Amber, I had nothing to do with her disappearance. Then who did? We don't have any ideas. Really?

There was a robbery here, and, you know, there's... You think a robber had something to do with her disappearance? Across from the house where she disappeared, there was a robbery that morning. Uh-huh. And? Well, robbers don't steal people, pregnant people for that. I'm telling you the, the police, those are the leads they've indicated. Oh, those are the only leads they've indicated? Yeah.

Really? Well, they're not sharing anything with me. They haven't what? They're not sharing anything with me. They're not sharing what with you? Any investigation except for the search. Uh-huh. I...

Unbelievable, Scott. I know. All I can say is how sorry I am that you are being put through this. You know what? I'll give you a suggestion or a word of advice. Never apologize to someone on the phone. You should come down there tonight. You're going to come down to my house tonight? No, I should have been. Really? And then what?

You're going to come to my house and you've missed the time and you've lied to me. Amber, no. Amber, no. I'm coming to your house tonight. But what I'm saying is I wanted to do this in person. Really? Yeah. So you want everything in your time, in your time frame as long as... No. No?

This time frame is not my choosing. Really? Really. It's just very coincidental, Scott. My God, Amber, no. You don't think? Remember when I told you, you know, the night of that dance, I said, when I was, I came to you because I was upset, because I said, Sean knew about this before me.

You told me, you had talked to her. You told Sean that you had lost your wife. And again, what loss and sense are you speaking of? Exactly. Exactly what? That there are many types of loss. Uh-huh. And what kind of loss was that? See, I can kinds of loss. Uh huh.

And what kind of loss was that? See, I can't tell you. Why? I just, I, I can't ask you to trust me. I can't ask you to believe me. I just, I can't tell you. And I will be able to in the future. If you'll listen to me then, I don't know if you will.

I can't ask you to do that. The only thing that would ever make me or change my mind in any way is that she's show. And she is found alive and comes forward. God, I hope she is found alive. But right now, as much as I'd

like to keep listening to Scott Peterson lying on the phone to Amber Fry, many people say she was the final nail in the coffin against Peterson. But a new trial for Scott Peterson? No way, according to brand new court filings. Alexis Tereschuk, what have we learned that the state is saying about these 11 new witnesses that completely torpedoed the state's theory that she was already dead when they saw her? They say that this is absolutely not credible. They say the credible witnesses are the ones, the next door neighbor who found the dog, found the dog wandering the street,

leash was attached. This is before the other witnesses say they found them. And this was not something that the police had really publicized. They didn't say, oh, the next door neighbor found the dog at 6.05 p.m. They just knew. So when these new witnesses came forward and said they saw the dog, they knew that it could not have happened. But this is just another scam by Scott to pretend like he's innocent. You know, Dr. Heather Walsh Haney, joining me from Florida Gulf Coast University, forensic anthropologist, before I ask you what you would expect to find in her body regarding cause of death, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I'm going to go back to these 11 witnesses.

You know, I once had a judge, and he was a great, great judge. His name was Luther Alverson. And he, Dr. Bethany Marshall, I've told you about him before, was the oldest judge in the courthouse. In fact, he was so old that he wanted to try more cases than any other judge and keep the lowest jail count. Jail count meant that say you get 150 new felons a week, and you've got to handle their cases. If they're all sitting in jail, you got 200 people on your court docket that are sitting in jail, that means you haven't pled those cases out, or you haven't tried them. So whichever DA went to his courtroom knew they had to go on trial every other week, which meant you had to be trying the case and

getting cases ready at the same time so he could keep his jail count down. And I'm proud to say, when I was assigned to his courtroom, we had the lowest jail count because I would go on trial every other week of my life. And my point that I'm getting to is that this judge was so old he got grandfathered in. He was on the bench before there was mandatory retirement. So he didn't have to retire. But it was my job to keep our jail count down. So we were on trial all the time. And he would tell juries, Dr. Bethany, he would say,

it is your duty to make all the witnesses speak the truth and impugn perjury on no one. In other words, is there a way to believe all the witnesses but reconcile their testimony? In other words, is there a way these 11 people saw something, they thought it was Lacey or they thought it was that day or they thought it was that dog. Because Alexis Tereschuk just told us that the new court filings by the state say the neighbor had found the dog with the leash and taken it and put it in Lacey's backyard when these new witnesses claimed they saw Lacey with the dog. So how can we reconcile their testimony? You know, Nancy, I think that the way our brains work sometimes is that our belief systems override reality. Okay, so sometimes we, we human beings can tell ourselves a lie.

A lie might be, oh, I need that $2,000 dress. I'll put it on my credit card right now. Or, you know, it doesn't. Oh, did you just say a $2,000 dress? Okay, I must. I need to have your job. Actually, your dresses do look like they could cost $2,000. Okay, you know, but you know, I'm going to stick with my black stretch tights. Go ahead. All right. So, so we tell ourselves something and then, you know, our brain wants to believe that this thing is correct. This is the truth, what we're telling ourselves. And then we build a narrative around it to justify it. And I can imagine these neighbors, these families in this neighborhood, having a belief that has sort of festered and grown over all these years, that belief is a strongly held one that they saw Lacey Peterson and they have been building a

narrative to justify the belief. Does that make sense? They've told themselves stories that will buttress and support whatever they think happened that day, even if it's not the truth. And we know it's not the truth based upon what Alexis Turek stress, Chuck is telling us. It's interesting. You know, my husband is a judge. And so we talk at the end of the day about what happens in his courtroom and he doesn't believe anybody, you know, none of the witnesses, none of the people who come in, he feels that they come in with a strong belief system.

And then they just back it up however they're going to back it up, even though they're in a court of law. Well, there's another psychological twist going on here. And Heather Walsh, Haney Alexis Tereschuk, I know you're familiar with this guy. My old sparring buddy. Well, let me just say my old sparring opponent. That's more appropriate. Mark Garagos. Okay.

Now, he is slippery as an eel. I am telling you. Okay. But people that are now questioning Scott Peterson's celebrity lawyer claiming he botched the trial. I don't agree with that. Because I know Mark Garagos. Okay. It's not like we go out and have coffee together or anything like that, but I know him. I have been dealing with him in person and at a distance via satellite for many, many years. And there is no way that if these people were on the map, on the radar at all, and they were legitimate,

there is no way Mark Geragos would not have brought them on. I mean, he was doing backflips to come up with defense theories, Dr. Bethany. Hey, Alexis, do you remember at one point he floated the idea, I think he did it with me on Larry King, of a Hawaiian, what was it, a Hawaiian burglary gang or Hawaiian dope gang got Lacey? For what? What are they going to do with Lacey, a nine-month pregnant woman, a dope gang? What?

Exactly. He had these crazy theories that he never actually produced any evidence for during the trial, which is what he can talk about. I mean, he was trying to win the case for Pete's sake. And of course, they were all lies. But look, you want to have a serial system like we have in the U.S.? Then that's what you get. You get a defense attorney who is very experienced and they come up with whatever theory will help their client.

And if you're charged with murder, you'd want your lawyer to do the same thing. Do anything. Just get me out of here. So Gary Gose came up with all sorts of theories. But now he's under fire. He's being the scapegoat, claiming he botched the trial, that he didn't do a good job. And I really believe, Alexis, that people questioning his performance, not that I agree with him, we fight like cats and dogs, people questioning him

are ignoring overwhelming evidence that Scott Peterson killed his wife and dumped her body in the bay. I am actually, God help me, defending Mark Geragos here. Help me, Alexis. Have I lost my mind? You have completely because, you know, he has been talking since y'all's show came out with you and he on the show. And he's saying, oh yeah, there is really a lot of evidence they didn't allow in. Basically just slamming himself. So I think that he's just trying to help his client since he lost the case so brutally because Scott Peterson is guilty of killing his wife. is not guilty. Why? Because they say, without a shadow of a doubt, they are absolutely certain they saw Lacey Peterson alive and well after police say she was already dead. And with me, Dr. Bethany Marshall out of LA, Dr. Heather Walsh Haney, forensic anthropologist, professor at Florida Gulf Coast University, and Radar Online's Alexis Tereszczuk.

You know, the attack on Mark Garagos claiming that he botched the trial by not bringing these witnesses forward? Well, according to court documents, these witnesses do not exonerate Scott Peterson. What do we know, Alexis Tereshchuk? Well, Scott Peterson is trying to say that there are 11 new witnesses, 11 people, 10, 15 years later after he killed his wife, that have all of a sudden said that nobody ever spoke to them and that they had all this bombshell evidence that they tried to give cops and the cops ignored because that's the new thing when, you know, documentaries come out is that people say all the cops did everything wrong so the prosecutors who put this man on death row are saying this is absolutely not credible these people offered information that completely was the opposite

of the solid proof they had like physically when the dog was found by the neighbors and returned they're saying they saw lacy walking this dog afterwards. Did not happen. And in fact, Mark Yarrago must have known that they were not credible because he did not put them on the stand. And as you said, he's a good lawyer. Well, that would have been, that would have been devastating. It's better. Don't put them on the stand. Then hinge your defense on them, put them on the stand and have it destroyed in cross-examination. Better the jury think your client is an ass and remain silent than speak and confirm their suspicions. That's my theory. In opening statements at the trial,

Mark Garagos seemed to promise he would exonerate Scott Peterson with eyewitness testimony from the very people in the neighborhood, there in Loma, and at a nearby nearby park after her husband leaves to go fishing. That would have made it completely impossible for him to have killed her. Now, these witnesses who have appeared and are appearing in a seven-hour documentary on A&E were never put on the witness stand. Neither were those burglars who were identified later and pled guilty that took a safe from a home on Covina Avenue. That's Lacey's address. Now, why didn't they testify? Because according to the state documents that have just been filed, the neighborhood witnesses were not believable and the burglary happened December 26, not December 24, when Lacey went missing.

Now, it's my understanding, Alexis, the timeline was really kicked off by a next-door neighbor who finds the dog, McKenzie, Lacey's golden retriever, lease-attached, because Mark, because, excuse me, Mark, he'd like that, because Scott Peterson let him out with his collar on and his leash. She finds the dog and brings him back. The burglary victims left the home after the dog was found. Repeat, the burglary victims left their home after the dog was found, which means, Alexis, that by the time when the neighbor found the dog and brought it back,

the burglary had not even happened yet and Lacey was already dead. Now, the purported or alleged sightings of Lacey were many, many, many. 74 sightings in 26 states and even across the oceans. What do you make about all this? Because right now, the habeas corpus appeal is happening. It's right now and there is a juror Rochelle and I nicknamed her strawberry shortcake on the air because of her her hair color was the color of strawberries so I named her strawberry shortcake because of her her hair dye and she failed to mention she had been assaulted when she was expecting four years earlier and they claim that she should have been

thrown out those are some of the claims they're making alexis i think that they are grasping for straws because they don't actually have any solid evidence they have nothing that shows that that scott was anywhere other than where he was which is at the house killing his wife and in fact these documents even say that that they are really saying the judge let in a lot of evidence that shouldn't have been let in. What he left. Like what? The dog evidence?

Because they argued hell and high water that the tracking dog that picked up Lacey's scent at the Berkeley Marina where Scott Peterson went fishing that day and he has a receipt to show he was there. That's his story that he was there where her body was dumped. The dog picked up Lacey's scent at Berkeley Marina four days after Scott Peterson was there, I think with her body in his boat. That came in at trial, but Alexis, correct me if I'm wrong, there was more dog scent evidence that didn't come in. Judge Al DeLuki threw it out. And that dog picked up Lacey's body scent between her home and her husband's warehouse where he made those cement blocks. He didn't let that in.

The jury never even heard that. Yeah, never at all. And so that just shows how much more they actually had against him. These dogs are really trustworthy. This isn't something that you can make up. Dogs don't have any reason to lie. They just do their job, which is to track a scent, and they find it at the warehouse. It's a direct correlation to show that Scott, that's where he packaged her up.

Weighted her body down and put her in his boat. You know, I have often said the best witnesses I ever put on the stand were dogs. Juries love them, and they can't lie. Scientific evidence cannot be beaten. And that is why we have with us a very special guest today, forensic anthropologist Dr. Heather Walsh Haney from FGCU. She's a professor there. Dr. Walsh Haney, with her body having been submerged in the water

for so long, how would that affect her remains? What does water do to the human body? Typically, from brackish to fresh to saltwater, what happens is that the water will slow down our body's decomposition process. So in the field of forensic anthropology, what we tend to say is two weeks of human remains on the surface would be equal to four weeks submerged in water. Because the presence of water will slow down the rate of decomposition. Sadly, though, there is very little research where we have used human donations in water settings and collected data every day, every couple of days, and every month. So what we really have is meta-analysis that through cases like this one, where we know

when the victim was missing, we know when the victim was found, and then we backtrack through the evidence to see how our bodies change. And so one of the things that can also happen is that our extremities will fall away from our remains in a water setting. Unfortunately, too, that also means that defensive wounds that could be on the hands or on the forearms may be gone because those extremities will disappear over time in water. But the other thing that's interesting is the human remains detector dog evidence. I had forgotten that these dogs had been used. Now, at the time of Lacey's disappearance, human remains detector dogs were not used

to the extent that they are now. And now we know so much more about their ability to detect decomposing human remains above and beyond non-human. They will exclude non-human remains. They will exclude garbage. And these dogs are specifically trained on human decomposing scent. And to know that the dogs were hitting and following that trail to the warehouse is amazing evidence.

And I think now, if the handlers had their training records on the human remains detector dogs, that's evidence that could be brought into court now that it sounds like wasn't allowed into court during the original trial. You know, Dr. Heather Walsh-Haney, I had made notes to try to keep up with you. I'm sorry.

One of my next, no, no, no. One of my next notes, one of my next notes was about her extremities were off her body. It was basically a torso that was found. I think she still had on a maternity bra and I think her pants were found somewhere. But regarding her extremities, I'm talking about arms and legs, her being in the water, would that have precluded us finding tool markings such as was she dismembered by a saw or some other type of tool? Well, in thinking about my own casework and the published literature, if someone is dismembered with a saw or a hatchet, usually those cut marks will be found on the intact torso.

Even though the extremities are gone, you know, that blade cut through the bone marking both sides of it, the side where the extremity has gone and then the side that is still intact with the torso. So it sounds to me like as though if that evidence wasn't brought in at court, it's unlikely that an instrument like that was used. Right. I think that the water decomposed her body.

Guys, this is not just a special on A&E. A&E's The Murder of Lacey Peterson is airing on Tuesdays. It's an episode each week for six weeks, stretching for a total of seven hours. And it features Amber Fry, Scott Peterson's then-girlfriend. It has jurors, anchors, reporters, detectives, lawyers, all sorts of people. And we also hear from Scott Peterson because his sister-in-law, Janie Peterson, calls him from behind bars. He's there in Cinquentin. And he can just say whatever he wants to.

That's easy because who's cross-examining him? He did not stand up and testify in front of the jury. I can tell you that much because he didn't want to be cross-examined. So now he's talking to his sister-in-law on the phone, and no one is there to challenge him. But it's not just an A&E special, which is really riveting. It is an ongoing legal battle. The habeas corpus appeal has been filed, claiming his constitutional rights were violated. It's on and we're watching.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.