Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Woman hears baby cub bear crying in trap, gets jail time sentence

Episode Date: March 29, 2019

Catherine McCartney and Mark Nagelhout freed a bear cub from a trap in a New Jersey town, but what they believed was a good deed landed the animal rights activists in court. A judge ordered McCartney to serve 15 days in jail because of her record of freeing animals from traps set by government agents trying to protect communities from bears. Nancy Grace looks at the controversy with McCartney, Nagelhout, and their lawyer Doris Lin, director of legal affairs at Animal Protection League of New Jersey. Grace's expert panels also includes Zoo Logic podcast host Dr. Grey Stafford -- who is an animal trainer and zoologist, Atlanta lawyer and animal rights activist Penny Douglas-Furr, and Crime Stories reporter Robyn Walensky. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. An animal rights activist who helped to free a bear from a trap will spend a couple of weeks in jail. Catherine McCartney, who's from Vernon, is appealing the sentence, however. She and another man helped the young bear escape back in October. Those traps were put in place after some nearby residents say bears charged at them on two separate occasions. You are hearing from our friends at News 12 New Jersey. I'm all about everybody doing a little bit of probation.

I don't think it hurts anybody. And maybe a little jail time once in a while. But wait a minute. This lady frees a crying bear cub from a trap. And she gets jail time sentence? What? Wait. Well, hold on.

Jackie, you're here in the studio with me. Jackie Howard. Aren't there murderers and rapists and drug dealers and child molesters walking around free right now? Sure have. Okay, and she gets jail time. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

And joining me right now, an all-star panel, starting with the New Jersey woman who gets jail sentence for freeing a crying baby bear cub. Catherine McCartney, also with me, Mark Nigglehout, the man who helped her free the bear cub. Doris Lynn, Director of Legal Affairs, Animal Protection League, New Jersey. Dr. Grace Stafford, our friend, animal trainer, zoologist, host of Zoologic podcast, Penny Douglas- long time attorney and animal activist. And joining me right now, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life, the CSI behind the Casey Anthony trial on Amazon, Robin Walensky. Robin, how did a lovely lady with no record, no rap sheet, no nothing, end up with jail time for freeing a baby bear cub.

Well, here's the story, Nancy. For full disclosure, I am from New Jersey. I was born there. I've been dealing with, you know, bears and deer and fox and wild turkeys that would attack the cars on my parents' driveway and gnaw at the rubber tires. So animals are a real problem in the Garden State. That all said. Now, wait a minute, wait a minute. I imagine, Robin Walensky, that the animals would say people are a real problem in the Garden State. They part their cars.

We have to go gnaw on them. I mean, it never ends with these people. Why won't they go away? We were here first. You see where I'm coming from on this, Robert Walensky. So other than the wild turkeys gnawing at your tire, go ahead. And my childhood home backs up on a reservation. So that all said, I do love animals, but the bears of all the animals I just listed, Nancy, are the biggest problem because they can attack and eat you.

Not just your garbage. They're sniffing around. You have to have special garbage cans and make sure that the lids are affixed to the top because they love food. So that all said, the state has had bear hunts over the years. Then some governors stopped them. Then other governors started them. There's lots of bears roaming around. Some traps were set by the environmental folks from the state. And this woman, 50 years old, who heard the bear crying, the cub, felt sorry for it.

And boy, I have to say, I really, wow, commend her. I wouldn't go out there and go near the bear and let it free. So I'd love to hear about how that happened. Well, let me understand something, Robin Walensky. You know, I'm all about following the law. You know, I don't even be a part of anything against the law. I don't want to be near it. I don't want to be around it. I go the other way.

But I understand that the EPA, remember, I worked for the Department of Natural Resources, little known fact, when I was in law school as an intern. I certainly did. And the trap set by the Environmental Protection, those are to stop bears from hurting people. I didn't know they were designed to torture the animal. I mean, you got a baby in a trap. It's hurting and it's crying. How often do they check the traps? Is the animals just supposed to be there and die and starve, bleed in pain? Is that what environmental protection is about?

And if so, who is it protecting? I mean, that's a lot of questions. That's what we call in the law a compound question. I can tell you what the problem is. Kathy, again, I want to thank you for being with us. Go right ahead. Okay. The problem is not with the bears.

First of all, there's not as many bears as people may want you to think. I lived in bear country for 15 years, and the truth is we almost never see them. The problem is the New Jersey Division of Fish and Wildlife, they don't enforce garbage control in bear country. And as everybody knows, the bears are attracted to garbage because there's food stuff and food waste in the garbage that they like to eat. So instead of handing out summonses, what the Division of Fish and Wildlife does is they set these traps. They usually kill the bears that they deem as nuisances. And then they take all of those incidents

and they use it to justify black bear trophy hunting. So really, Fish and Wildlife, they're the problem. And I hold them responsible for virtually every unwanted bear encounter in our state because they're not doing their job. And the cub was caught in one of these traps. You know, Kathy, that's what I want to get to. I want to ask you and Mark what happened that day. And I want to just put it out there. I want to hear exactly what happened that day and then we'll be joined by Grace Stafford and Doris Lynn. So Kathy you start. Okay we were aware that there was that they were trapped in the area

everybody was. So Mark and I we originally wanted to just go there to document. However, the sounds of the bear crying for his mother were so upsetting. And it just, it made us realize, I mean, we know that the situation was wrong, but it just made us realize that this is so wrong. And this baby just needed to be reunited with his mother and um we knew that the mother and her other cubs were in the area we were not uh we were not worried that she was gonna hurt us because they just don't do that now wait a minute wait a minute whoa whoa whoa right there hold on grace stafford dr grace stafford host of zoo logic podcast to jump in. He's chomping at the bit. Now, I don't know a lot, but I do know that bears will eat you, Gray.

I do know that. Black bears are very timid. Black bears are very timid animals. And we obviously, we came out unscathed. She just wanted her baby back. And that's what we did. And you know what, Dr. Grace Stafford, animal trainer, PhD, zoologist, hosted Zoologic podcast. Dr. Grace Stafford, number one, I think bears eat you. Maybe I'm wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about. And I completely, if it doesn't have crime scene tape around it, I don't really know that much about it.

So Dr. Gray Stafford, I think bears will eat you. Catherine and Mark, I think, risked a lot, life and limb. But Dr. Gray, won't bears eat you, much less a mommy bear who you're messing with her cub? Bear attacks are rather rare. However, they're very dangerous animals. And I would disagree with your guess because a threatened mom, a protective mom, I mean, Nancy, you're a protective mom. I wouldn't want to tangle with you if one of your children were at risk. So I think that they put themselves at serious risk of being hurt by this female. We don't know what she would have done. And if she was in the area, they took a very big risk, which could have risked the lives of other people as well, including any park rangers that would intervene.

Now, hold on, though. When we're talking about bear attacks, Catherine and Mark chose, knowing about the bears in their area, they were willing to accept that risk to save the baby. Got a couple of questions for you. But hold on. Doris Lynn wanted in. Director of Legal Affairs at Animal Protection League, New Jersey. Hit me, Doris. If you look at the facts, black bear attacks are extremely rare. You're actually 200 times more likely to die in a hunting accident. You are more likely to die from a vending machine falling on you. So I think we need to put this in perspective.

Yes, we have teeth and claws, but they are extremely timid and attacks are extremely rare. I'm sorry, Doris Lynn, but you stopped me when you said teeth and claws. Animal rights groups rally against the state-sanctioned bear hunt this weekend. No way, no how. We're here to say that... Protesters say they've launched a public media campaign against the annual bear hunt. They're urging Governor Murphy to keep his vow of putting an end to the hunt, that demonstration taking place in Middletown yesterday where the governor lives. Men in the woods with guns shooting creatures, that might work in Alaska or Colorado or something, but New Jersey is a very densely populated state and we just think

there's a better policy to eliminate unwanted human and bear encounters. A billboard also went up in Middletown urging the end of the hunt. You know, you were just hearing from our friends at News 12 New Jersey. What we're talking about right now, bear-related and animal rights activist frees a crying baby bear cub from a trap and gets a jail sentence. She says she made a moral decision so he could, quote, run back to his mother. I don't know. Penny Douglas Fur, veteran lawyer and animal activist. I've got Catherine McCartney with me, the woman who released the bear to the wild. Mark Nagelhout, who helped her. Doris Lynn, Legal Affairs, Animal Protection, New Jersey. Dr. Grace Safford, Robin Walensky, Penny Douglas.

You know how I am about the children. You know, when I even hear a baby cry or a child cry, I can hardly stand it. I can hardly stand it. And it bothered me before I had the twins. But now when I hear a child cry, it's instinctive. I can't help it. So Penny, when Kathy hears the baby bear crying, what is she supposed to do? Just sit there and wait for them to get around to getting the bear out of the trap? Oh, I absolutely would have done exactly what she did. And I think the problem here, and I'm not a New Jersey lawyer, but I think the problem here is it's probably an ordinance violation and you can't get a jury trial. I think if she had a jury trial, no jury would ever convict her for letting a baby bear out. I don't

care what the law says. I think in that kind of case, you would have jury nullification. Well, hold on. I got a problem, Penny. Here in the studio, I'm trying to focus, but I've got Jackie Howard making all sorts of faces and spinning. What is your problem, Jackie? Bears are a lot more dangerous than they realize. Okay, than they realize. Since you see a bear, when you go up to Cherokee, North Carolina, and you feed one some peanuts through a cage,

what experience do you have with a bear feed one some peanuts through a cage. What experience do you have with a bear? I grew up on a farm. We had bears on the farm. Where? Where did you grow up? And how many bears did you see? About five. Five in your life. Okay. Robin Walensky, I rest my case. Robin Walensky, give me the bear stats real quick. Yeah, I will. I want to say that I saw a bear once, Nancy, when I was a camper. When I lived in Jersey, I'd go to camp in Pennsylvania, and there was a bear once standing up on a tennis court. That was it for me. I just want to get that out. But the statistics are that in the—

I don't think the tennis court is their that until, you know, 1970, there wasn't really a bear problem because there was always a hunt in New Jersey up until 1970. Then you got into this whole. Why do you keep calling it a bear problem? They're living on the earth with us. They have a right to be here. OK, why is it a problem? Their interaction with the Garden State residents appears to be a huge problem. You mean aiding them?

Yes. You mean aiding them? But this is become a political football, Nancy. So after 1970, you get into Democratic governors and Republican governors, and some are pro-gun and pro-NRA, and some are against, and back and forth and back and forth. So now currently in the state of New Jersey, we have a Governor Murphy, Governor Murphy, who is the current governor, who is a Democrat. Last summer, August of 2018, he signed an executive order in the state. And what he did was he said no more bear hunting on all state-owned land. However, dot, dot, dot dot environmental folks are not happy with this they think it only goes half measure nancy because just because you're not on the state of new jersey

has plenty of county parks and other areas where the bears are roaming free i want to go back to the day, Mark Nagelhout, that you helped Catherine save the baby bear. What happened, Mark? Start at the beginning. You know, let me interject here. I'm not here to talk about bear attacks. This has nothing to do with bear attacks. The problem is the Division of Fish and Wildlife, they do not enforce garbage control in bear country. We can't say that bears are a problem and then have our state authorities not enforce garbage control. They can't have it two ways. They can't have it two ways. So they must enforce garbage control. So what happened that morning, that day, Mark? Well, from my perspective, it broke my heart to hear the bear cub crying. And what amazed me also was seeing mom and the other cubs stay in the area the entire time.

And I wasn't scared for one second. I've been around bears. I've had family that were around bears for 30 years. They live with bears in Sussex County. They never had a bear attack. They never had any issues like that. They lost one bird feeder. They had one garbage can carried across the street.

It wasn't even opened. So they learned to live alongside bears for 30 years. Okay, I have a question. Why won't anybody tell me what happened that day well what what what amazed me also was again to Kathy's point on the division of fish and wildlife where this bear trap was placed it was placed where people parked their cars and where this broken dumpster was. So another thing that I observed was this bear and these cubs, and this really broke my heart too, seeing the mama bear and cubs walk and actually jump on the dumpster

because they knew that was an easy food source. And that's a problem. That's the Kathy's point. I agree. The real problem is garbage containment, and nothing is done about it. I keep asking what happened the day you saved the bear, and nobody will tell me. Do I have to go to the reporter to ask her what happened to you that day, or can you tell me what happened that day?

Well, I helped Kathy open the trap and the cub ran to mom. Okay, that's pretty general. Let me just start with a couple of cross-examination questions. What time of the day was it, light or dark? Well, it was dark and we were there. We weren't there to open the trap. I was there actually for the record. My wife, Kim, was there with me as well. And we were there that night to document the incident. And Kathy joined us as well to document. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. I don't know what you're saying. You were there. See, I thought

you guys heard the bear and it broke your heart and you went and helped him out. So when you say you were there to document the incident, you mean to document that you were going to save this bear? No, no, no. This was to our point. We knew the trap was there because someone went to the police department and claimed that this bear charged at him. And bears are known for doing bluff charges.

It doesn't mean they're going to attack. And this man injured himself because he tripped as he was running away from the bear. And so the Division of Fish and Wildlife responded by setting up a trap for the bear, even though the bear attacked no one. And so that's how we knew the trap was there. Guys, I've been looking at the stats, and I'm looking at a website called alaskalife.com. And it's the number of deaths in the U.S. per year. Cardiovascular, almost a million.

Transportation, about 50,000. Drowning, about 4,000. Drowning, about 4,000. Hypothermia, about 700. West Nile virus, about 120. Hornet, bee wasp stings, about 50. Snake bites, about 5. Bear attacks, 2. So you're more likely to die from the West Nile virus

or from freezing to death or from a snake bite or a hornet, bee, or wasp sting than a bear attack. Interesting. Yes, and that figure includes grizzly bears. So that's not even, you know, black bears. I mean, that, you know, that's all bears. Nancy, in North America in the last 20 years, between 1997 and 2017, there have been 25 fatal black bear attacks and three of them in the U.S., two in Alaska, and actually one in New Jersey back in 2014 in West Milford. Now, hold on, wait a minute, Robin. I'm trying to digest your stats.

You said how many deaths over how many years? 25. Wow. Between 1997 and 2017. So in a 20-year period. 20 years. Yeah, that's about right. That's the same stat, about two people a year. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

I want to get back to the day or the night as you're now telling me that you saved the baby bear. Don't talk about anything about garbage cans, about DNR, environmental protection, nothing. I want to hear about how you rescued the baby bear, Kathy. It was raining. It was dark. Mark and I were there with his wife, Kim, and we wanted to video. And the cries of the bear was something like I had just never heard before. It was like a very sad, moaning, I can't explain it. Yeah, it almost sounded like the bear was calling Ma. And it was just, I almost started to cry. Okay, I know a lot of people would laugh at that,

but Dr. Grace Stafford, you have dealt with so many animals, host of Zoologic podcast. Don't laugh at me because this happened. My dog that I had all the way through law school, actually several times said hello. He said hello. I heard him say hello. I mean, it was barking, but I can't really describe it. But it sounds maybe. Sure. I know that I probably, you know, put in not imagined it, but I interpreted it to sound like a word. But it did. It did.

It sounded like a word. Yes, it was from a dog, but it sounded like a word. So when she says it sounded like it was saying ma, I totally believe that. I believe you because huskies can do that. Well, certainly animals can mimic sounds. So I'm not surprised your dog might have, you know, learned to mimic sounds that he hears regularly. But I got to go back to something that was said earlier, and that is there was a report that the animal was in the area and could have been posing a risk. The Department of Natural Resources would have been derelict in its duty had it not intervened,

had it not set a trap to evaluate the animal and relocate them. It didn't know if it was a male or female with cubs. It had a duty to go out there and investigate. Well, I agree with you, Dr. Gray Stafford. Their duty is to enforce garbage control. Hold on, guys. It's much bigger than that. That's their duty. I agree with you. If a human life is in danger, the DNR has to act. That is their duty. What I don't understand is why an animal is left in a trap to suffer. So Kathy and Mark, that evening, when you go out, you know this trap is there, you know there's a baby bear in it, you document it. So what kind of a trap was it? Well, it was what they call like a barrel trap. So it's like a metal drum, looks like a metal drum on its side.

So what happens is the bear is baited in, they go in the trap, and then the door closes. Okay. So there wasn't like a saw closed over his foot. He was just in a barrel, right? That's correct. But it's, again, separating from the rest of the family. Now, let me ask you, how long had the baby been in the barrel, do you think? About an hour.

Okay, so what happened then? See, in my mind, I thought it was a bear trap like I've seen on TV. And yes, I worked at Department of Natural Resources, but I was mostly dealing with the beachside side uh penny douglas fir down at saint simon's island about trying to preserve the beach so that that's what i was working on i don't know anything about bear traps and i had imagined the type you see on tv where you step in it and then a thing that looks like jaws made of, you know, like a saw, capture the animal. But you're telling me it's like a drum. Yeah, it's called a culvert trap.

It's called a culvert trap. But what happens is the Division of Fish and Wildlife, they usually, they kill those bears after they capture them. And they consider them nuisance bears. However, it's the Division of Fish and Wildlife that creates the nuisance bears. I know. You're back to the garbage. I understand. Let me understand something because I had a completely – when I entered this program,

I was imagining a baby bear cub with its foot sliced open by, you know, a bear trap that looked like a saw. Now I'm understanding he's lured in by a bait trap and he's in like a barrel and he had been in there for about an hour. Now, the Department of Natural Resources or Division of Fish and Wildlife, they say they come and they release them every hour is that true so he would have only been in there an hour he was in there at least an hour he was in there at least an hour that we know of and had we not let him out and the the cops have not called them we don't know when they would have come but when they would have come we don't know what they would have done with him. We know that they kill the bears that they catch. And we know that they have in the past taken the orphan bears and just abandoned them to fend for themselves without their mother.

So we wanted that baby safe with his mother, and we wanted the whole family out of the area. Nancy, can I make a point? Can I just make a point? Yeah, jump in. I want to know how you got it back to the mom. I mean, how a mom stood by while you tampered with her baby. Because I'm very interested. This is not a trick question.

I'm not trying to trap you. I'm just trying to find out what happened. Because everything I thought is completely wrong. And I'm hearing it all now for the first time. So how did you get it back to its mom, Mark? Well, the bear just ran right out to mom. I mean, again, my wife was documenting the whole thing. So she saw the bear run out of the trap

and run right to where mom and the other cubs were. So, and I just want to make another point. How close were you to the mom and the cubs? How close were you to the mom and the cubs? How close were you to the mom and the cubs? Maybe estimated 10, maybe 30 feet. Wow, you're brave. I think a lot of people would do the same thing. And just another point, you know, the Division of Fish and Wildlife, they use a category system for bears.

So what they deem to be, to Kathy's point, what they deem to be bears that are threats, and that's, you know, can be debatable if they're really a threat or not, under the category system, they can be killed. So in this case, you had an open dumpster right by where people walk to their cars and throw their garbage out. People could see that as a threat, and that would get these innocent bears killed. So, again, the real problem, again, is the attractant, the initial problem. If these initial problems are handled correctly... Okay, can I just mention right now to Kathy and Mark, I get it. I get the garbage. I get that there is a garbage problem

and the bears come to it and the garbage is not being controlled and therefore the bears are attracted and they shouldn't get the death penalty because they went to eat some garbage. I get it. I understand completely. To Penny Douglas Fur, I'm looking at the so-called culvert trap. It's actually huge. It's about the size of a, golly, it looks like it's a large, it looks like it's maybe 10 or 11 feet long. And it's about three or four feet tall.

I mean, I could totally go in there and go to sleep. Nancy, it's the bear equivalent of a have a heart trap that you might use around your house for smaller wildlife or for a feral cat. Okay, see, I don't do that. I live and let live. Back to you. Kathy McCartney, the New Jersey woman, sentenced to jail for freeing a bear cub. You know, I started this off by saying, no record, no rap sheet, no nothing.

But of course, the anti-bear person here is telling me you have been, let me just say, observed, or it has been suggested that you have done this before. Peaceful civil disobedience at a protest. Peaceful protest. I'm sure the Department of Natural Resources doesn't think it's so peaceful when they have one guy claiming got charged by a bear and you are hearing this baby bear crying for its mommy. Let me ask you a question, Kathy McCartney and Mark Nagelhout. If I heard a pet or an animal, not a pet, crying, I would want to help it too.

So my question to you is, Kathy, how did you happen to know the bear was in the trap if it had been there for about, you knew of it being there for about an hour? Were you actually on a stakeout waiting for a bear to get in the trap so you can release it? No, no. It's very common that that Fish and Wildlife sets traps. This is bear country and we know that there are bears in the area. And you know, news travels very fast. So a lot of people knew about these traps. And it's not the first time that the division has set traps. They've been doing it for years. And this is the way they operate. They don't do their jobs. They don't enforce garbage control. They wait for bears to get into trouble. They set traps. They kill them. They promote fear. And then they use

that to say, we need to hunt them. Because they are in the Division of Fish and Wildlife is in the business of trophy hunting. So were you waiting, waiting mark to free a bear were you waiting to free a bear mark or did you really hear a baby bear crying and happen to go out there with video or whatever to document it at that precise moment you happen to have your wife notebook and pen in hand to go and free the baby bear to what happened? I'll answer that in a second. But first, I just want to say on the culvert traps, I call them barrel traps, whatever, but culvert traps, there's different sizes. Okay. So this was the second culvert trap that was set in this complex. The first one was set on the other side of the complex, right near the main road to get in there,

which was an odd place for it to be. It's almost like Fish and Wildlife wanted that first trap to be spotted, and that was a bigger trap. This one that we were by and that we opened was smaller, and I don't believe it was big enough for a full size for a mama bear to be caught. I believe it's designed, I could be wrong, but I believe it's designed to catch a smaller bear, a smaller cub, which in that case would draw, obviously draw mom and the other cubs to the area. You know, I'm thinking this thing through.

Okay, can I get you back to that question now? Yes, yes. So we were there, to answer your question, we were there to document. We were there before any bears were caught in the trap. So we were just there to document. We were there before any bears were caught in a trap. So we were just there to document. Nancy, I think what they're saying is because they're putting all these traps out there, they're just there because they're activists and they're trying to document any bears that are in traps that they're trying to get. Penny, I just got a new fact. This is not a bear out in the wild.

This is at the Great George Village Condominium Complex where children are. Right. And that's a lot different than being out in the woods, Penny. Well, the problem is... Whoa, whoa, whoa.

I get it. I get it about the trash. No, I problem is, Nancy, the bears were up there. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I get it. I get it about the trash. No, I understand what I'm going to say. But what I'm saying is it's a big difference. I mean, you have the good sense to keep your pack of wild, feral Rottweilers in the house. And they attack the door every time I knock on it. I think that's my last breath. I see nothing but fangs and teeth and saliva and tongue and fur through your door.

This is the problem because the bears were there when the condos come in and when the homes come in, all the animals were already there. And we're running them out of their home, and they're coming because we've taken their space away and they're just trying to get the food and come to our trash cans. I know they are, but what do you do, Grace Stafford, what do you do when a mama bear comes to get the trash and there's a three-year-old standing there? What happens then, Grace Stafford? Exactly. And Nancy, I know we're talking about New Jersey, but when you look around the world,

human-animal conflict is a serious problem. Someone is killed by a wild animal every single day. And so DNR has a difficult task ahead of them. Yes, we need to educate the public about trash. But we also have to manage the relationship between wildlife and people as human populations grow and natural habitats shrink. And a balance has to be formed somewhere. And otherwise, you're going to talk about more and more bear attacks.

That's just the reality. So DNR has an unenviable job. But to intervene and to kind of confound what they're trying to do, to me, doesn't solve the problem. Robin Walensky, jump in. You know, Nancy, here's my thing. This is a radio program, not a television show. And just so for the audience,

so they understand what these traps look like. This is not a trap when you are in your house and you have a mice or a rat problem and you put a little piece of cheese or peanut butter and it goes click and it goes, the little trap thingy goes over the little mouse and your mouse is dead and you throw it in the garbage this is not that this is not catching the bear's foot in a trap i think people are visualizing this trap like when you catch mice this is not

that this is a large silver cylinder where the bear actually crawls in and you no longer can visually see the bear once it is inside the silver cylinder. So humans know that this is there and then the bear gets trapped in this cylinder. I'm looking right at it and you can go to crimeonline.com and see a photo of it. In fact, I'm pretty sure I see Kathy McCartney and Mark Nagelhout in this cylinder. I'm looking right at it. And you can go to crimeonline.com and see a photo of it. In fact, I'm pretty sure I see Kathy McCartney and Mark Nagelhout in this picture. And there's a big sign that says, danger, bear trap, keep away. And to you, Mark, it looks like the trap comes up to about your shoulders. But you know what I'm seeing?

I'm seeing a front shot of it, and you are lifting it up. So I don't know how tall it really is because you're lifting up the front door, and so you've got it up to about your shoulders. I don't know how big the trap really is because I can't see past the front. So let me ask you this. I mean, Dr. Grace Stafford. Well, you know what? Let me go to Doris Lynn on this.

Doris, jail time? Now, again, this is not Kathy McCartney's first time at the rodeo. She's no stranger to animal activism. She was arrested at bear hunt protest 2016, 17, 18. So is that why the judge gave her jail time? Yes, it was because she had these past violations. But, you know, I need to interject here that the Division of Fish and Wildlife is not this, you know, benevolent environment-protecting organization. The Division of Fish and Wildlife is run by hunters for hunters.

By statute, the 11-member Fish and Game Council has to have six members who are hunters and they are chosen by hunting clubs in New Jersey and they make money by selling hunting licenses. If you look in their own magazine, the 2014 New Jersey Hunting, Trap and Digest, there's an article called Create a New Tradition, Hunt New Jersey Black Bear. And the article says, if you are looking for an inexpensive and exciting hunting adventure close to home, consider hunting black bears in New Jersey. So for them, this supports their narrative of, oh, bears are dangerous. Oh, we need to hunt them. Oh, look at all these bear-human conflicts.

And they have built this story up to try to support a black bear hunt, to try to support their recreational trophy hunt. Well, Dr. Grace Stafford with Zoo Logic Podcast, when I worked at the Department of Natural Resources in law school, people cared about animals and they cared about nature and they cared about wildlife. If you had any idea how many man hours I put into studying how to save a beach, a very small beach, to help the sea turtles, for Pete's sake. I mean, people do care. I know we did at the Georgia Department of Natural Resources. Sure, they care. And so do most ethical hunters.

That's why they pay those license fees to have that opportunity to hunt. I'm not a hunter, but I recognize that ethical hunting that's managed at the state level, the federal level, et cetera, does provide great benefit to each state to save habitat, to preserve the entire population. And I know it's difficult for some people to see that, especially when you're looking at the individual level. But when you're tasked with managing the entire population of bears and wildlife in a state like New Jersey, you have to make these difficult decisions and you have to find a way to fund it. There's really no such thing as ethical bear hunting.

No. That's not true. That's not true. If it's managed properly. We can get into baiting, too, Nancy. We can get into baiting, which is done for bears and deer in New Jersey. And I could go on and on about deer baiting, too, and chronic wasting disease. So what needs to happen, baiting needs to be banned in New Jersey.

And, Mark, that's a valid point. Yeah. That's not ethical. Well, Mark, that's a valid point. And if there are issues with the way that the hunt is being managed, if it's not following fair chase rules, then petition your government and change the rules and regulations. But you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Well, that's quite the pun, throwing the baby bear out with the bathwater. What we are talking about right now is a woman, Kathy McCartney and Mark Nagelhout. Kathy has been sentenced to jail time. Now, see, I'm coming at it from a very different angle. I want those jail cots for child molesters and murderers and dope dealers, rapists. That's who I want in jail. In fact, we don't even have enough beds for all of them. We can't catch half of them, number one. So I'm leaning toward letting Kathy McCartney pick up a little trash on the side of the road with her friend Mark Nagelhout. What she says she did was free a baby bear from a trap that was meant for Mama Bear. And it was on the state side at a condominium complex where there are children. Where will it all end? And Nancy, as we go to air, we are now learning the judge is changing his mind.

He will allow Catherine McCartney and Daniel Varon to avoid jail time. Instead, they can apply to work on the Sheriff's Labor Assistance Program. That's the SLAP program in which they can perform manual labor instead of going to jail. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.