Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Woman visits gyno, gets slapped with $1 million lawsuit; Newborn twins bludgeoned dead, mom asks 'There were 2?'

Episode Date: June 14, 2018

After Michelle Levine posted a negative Yelp review of her gynecologist, she found herself the target of a $1 million lawsuit. Do you have a right to call out you doctor when you think you were mistreated or over charged? Levine shares her story with Nancy Grace. They're joined by lawyer & psychologist Dr. Brian Russell, juvenile judge and lawyer Ashley Willcott, forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan and CrimeOnline.com reporter Jennifer Dzikowski. Reporter John Lemley joins Nancy to update the story of a Florida woman accused of killing her newborns and then throwing one in the trash. Police body cam video reveals how Rachael Lynn Thomas first denied knowing she gave birth to two babies, but later acknowledged she knew she had twins. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Subscribe today at PIMagazine.com. Use this show's promotional code for your special discount at PIMagazine.com. Subscribe today. Use promo code Nancy for your special discount. That's promo code Nancy. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph channel 132. Can you imagine going to your doctor? Ladies, your gynecologist. Man, I really don't know what to equate that to. I guess a urologist for a prostate exam. I don't know. And frankly, I don't want to think about that right now okay I haven't had a second cup of tea yet but imagine going to your doctor and then suddenly you find out your doctor has sued you for a million dollars goodbye savings account goodbye IRA goodbye children's

tuition savings plan goodbye house goodbye car I'm nancy grace this is crime stories thank you for being with us that seemingly is just what happened to a woman joining us right now but first to jacob zekowski crime online.com investigative reporter. Let me understand this. So she goes to the gynecologist and then she gets sued for a million dollars. What happened in the examination room? So there are so many layers to this story that have just boggled me, left me shocked. Michelle Levine was merely looking to get her annual exam. This happened in July of 2017. As you said, you know, millions of women do this every year. And annual exams were typically covered through her insurance with no out-of-pocket costs. She made an appointment with Dr. June Song of New York

Robotic Gynecology and Women's Health. She found him from NYU's website, and so being a trusted source, Michelle said she never thought twice about making the appointment with him. On the day of the appointment... Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Jennifer Zagowski. You know how much I love you, right? But for us mere mortals, we have to take it one sentence at a time. We can't take it like a bullet, okay? So let me understand this. She has to go get her annual exam, which all women, all people need to do. Preventative.

She goes for her annual exam. She finds this doctor, you said, through NYU, one of my old alma maters, New York University. Okay. What happened then? So in the other part of that, NYU, when she went to them about all this, said he's voluntarily affiliated. Just doesn't work directly for them, but he is advertised on their website that she found him on. So she goes to this appointment on that day. Michelle said Dr. Song never gave her a pelvic exam as is usually done at your regular annual exams,

but instead asked her. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you say she's going for a gynecological exam, right? Yes. Yes. You don't want to pop up with cervical cancer for Pete's sake. How can you go for your annual pelvic exam and then nobody looks at your pelvic area? How does that happen? Exactly. It's mind-boggling. Instead, Dr. Song asked her if she was experiencing menstrual cramps, and he subsequently performed an ultrasound. But keep in mind, Michelle said she told Dr. Song that she wasn't experiencing any cramps at the time of the exam, but that she has experienced menstrual cramping, as millions of women do. She really thought it was protocol at his practice. She noted the name of the practice being New York Robotic Gynecology and she thought

oh maybe I'm getting a fancy you know annual and this is different than than a regular doctor than I'm used to so she goes through all that then she gets the bill it was $427 which she would have to pay out of pocket, and found out her insurance was billed over $1,300 by Song's practice, all for this annual exam she thought would be fully covered, and it had always been the case through her insurance in the past. So she did what many people would do. She called the doctor's office to inquire about the charges. She said the office wouldn't budge on the pricing. So from there, she did also what many people would do after an unpleasant experience, and she took that matter to Yelp, DocDoc, Healthgrades to review the doctors she felt had ripped her off so other women could be warned. So those reviews led to Song filing a $1 million defamation lawsuit against her,

and she has already spent approximately $20,000 in court costs for the case. There was just a long pause, Jennifer Sikowski, because I'm actually speechless. I'm feeling as though I must be missing a piece of this puzzle. I mean, what a $1,300 bill for an annual pelvic where you get a pap smear and you don't get a pelvic exam which is why you're there that along with the breast exam a million dollar lawsuit what did she say in her yelp review that could possibly justify a million dollar whoa a million dollar lawsuit okay what what was said in the Yelp review? She basically laid down exactly what happened just to warn other women. And she said that by doing this Yelp review, she had heard from other women. Not only that, but the staff itself had replied to her Yelp review saying that an ultrasound was protocol for all of the annuals

at Dr. Song's practice. So it wasn't just Michelle from what she was seeing being ripped off, but all of these women who were thinking, you know, that this was standard, that they had to get this done. And that was not the case. So Dr. Song was floored. And, you know, he has the money, the power to do it, to take her down with this $1 million lawsuit. And as Michelle and I have talked about, what seems to be the saddest, craziest part of this all is that anyone with that kind of money or should I say

power can get offended by something as small as the Yelp review and they can turn it around because they have the money to do so. And someone like Michelle is forced to spend her life savings on a frivolous lawsuit. Join me right now. The woman now facing a $1 million lawsuit because of her Yelp review of a gynecologist, Michelle Levine. Michelle, I've read all about your story, and it's hard for me to even absorb what's happening. Do you mind telling me your story from the beginning? Yeah, I found Dr. Song through NYU Langone website. He has his own page. It's very professional looking.

And there his practice is listed and everything. And I trusted that institution. So I chose a doctor from their site. And I went to him for an annual exam. I had just recently switched insurances. So he was only the second gynecologist I've ever went to for an annual exam. And as Jennifer said, I went in expecting to get an annual. That's what I booked.

When I went in, they asked me why I was there. I said I was there for an annual, and they all agreed with me. Dr. Song took me into his office and started asking me questions about my history, which was pretty normal. And towards the end of that interview, he was, again, just asking me if I ever got menstrual cramps. And like most women, I responded, yes. He asked me exactly two questions pertaining to that, how much they hurt on a scale of one to 10 when I had them on their worst days and where, and if it ever, the pain ever radiated anywhere like it does for most women, I told him to my legs. And I thought I was just answering questions because he asked me other questions about my health.

Nothing else was indicated that he was concerned about it. He didn't ask me if I had had them checked by other doctors or if it was a concern of mine. He just said, okay, now we're going to give you an ultrasound. And that seemed a little weird to me. And maybe I should have asked more about it, but I don't know. I just always trusted doctors. So I was like, okay, I mean, I'm here for an annual, so I guess I'm getting an ultrasound. I don't recall there being any other equipment in the office, really. I wasn't weighed. None of that stuff that usually happens when I go to a doctor. He did give me a pap smear, but he did not give me any of the other examinations like the pelvic or the breast. It's

part of an annual. So I went with the ultrasound. It didn't feel right, but it was done. And I left. Next thing I know, I'm getting a bill. I don't think he successfully charged my insurance because I had a deductible. The whole cost went to me. He tried to charge my insurance for over $1,300, but they said, no, you can only charge her for this amount. So the total is $424 plus the $50 copay that I wasn't supposed to have to pay. I called the office about this bill when I get it, thinking it's a mistake, and I couldn't believe it. Instantly on the other side, they got very aggressive. And they told me that I was there for pain, with pain radiating down my legs. And I instantly remembered that question about the

cramp. I was like, Oh, my God, he just took that question and totally flipped it around and turned it into the reason I was there. And they were very aggressive with me. They told me that I was there for pain. And they were pretty much essentially telling me that I had no choice over my visit. Dr. Song, his opinion was that I had pelvic pain, and I should have all of this. And if I don't agree with him, I'm lying. And I've been called a liar ever since the day I called about the bill. And I think since then, some of his staff have come, I have a GoFundMe page and I've had his staff come and harass me and promote his business on my own fundraising page. And they're just still all over the internet where they can just saying, yeah, but you're only hearing one side. She's a liar. And I don't think that people understand that it isn't even them calling me

a liar. It's the whole action of even just suing your patient. And in that first month of the lawsuit, his lawyers posted all my medical records on the public court system so anyone could see it, and they don't ever seem to even care about that. They're like, no, no, no, you don't understand. She's lying. Hold on, Michelle. Michelle, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Wait a minute. All of your medical records were posted on a public website. Yeah. By the doctor's office. By his lawyers. Yes. Oh, my stars. All my bills and everything.

My bills, my insurance information said how much deductible I had, how much damage. Even my photo, just in case you weren't sure they were mine, with my name, my address, my birthday, my driver's license, the ID number was blocked out, but the rest of my driver's license was plain as day. And when you say your medical records, do you mean not just your billing and address and so forth, but your actual medical records regarding your health? Yes, the entire medical record, the details of the sonogram, whatever mental health notes he took of me that day. Although he did write down that he gave me an exam, and that was another time when I noticed. I'm like, oh, my God, he wrote down that I had a breast and pelvic exam, but I didn't.

And, of course, the vitals were left blank because I don't even remember him having a scale in his office. So, yeah, the whole thing was there. Let me understand this. You're saying he did perform a pap smear. Yeah. Isn't that what a pelvic exam includes? No. I know a lot of women know this. There's more. The pap smear is just, you know, the screening for cervical cancer.

Usually they feel around and make sure everything's in its right order down there. You mean like with the speculum and they go in and visually examine your reproductive organs and do a, yeah, okay. So are you sure that did not occur when he was taking the pap smear? Well, no, because on the record, there's more details on it. Like he thoroughly examined me. A pap smear is just a quick test that takes a little piece. Yeah, you're right. It's only a part of the. That's true.

That's true. That's where they use like the speculum where the pelvic exam, they actually like usually go in like with their fingers and feel the reproductive organs from my experience well yeah because your pelvic organs such as uterus and ovaries cannot be seen out from outside your body the doctor must palpate the abdomen and pelvis as part of the exam and during that time he she or he presses down on the outside of the lower abdomen and physically fills your reproductive organs to make sure that they can't find a growth a lump a cyst or anything they find out of the ordinary they check the size and shape of your uterus and ovaries they determine if there are any tender areas unusual growth and they do a rectal exam as well. That's something you'll definitely remember.

Michelle Levine, when you say they came on to your GoFundMe or your website and harassed you, what do you mean by that? Sarah Kim, his billing manager, she wrote about a string of five, maybe six comments promoting the business. Again, I don't understand why because why she's doing this. She technically was saying how great it is that they give everyone an ultrasound and how everyone is thankful for it and, and you know how great they are and how they do accept criticism but I'm just lying and they don't know why I'm I'm doing this to them again behaving like victims even though I'm not the only bad review they have and there's other people who who said the same exact things as me in their

reviews that they didn't get exams. And you know, they were charged for ultrasounds that their one woman said her exam was misclassified as pelvic pain. I have a friend who's a radiologist. And she told me that, I mean, again, I need this confirmed, but she said that you can only give an ultrasound just for the sake of having it, and he wanted to charge you, that's fine and dandy, but he's taking insurance and changing the reason for people's visits so that he can put the claim in. Well, this is what we know. Michelle posts an Internet complaint on Yelp.

Millions of people do it every day. She gave a one-star review to my understanding and suddenly she is slapped with a one million dollar lawsuit. She's already paid over twenty thousand dollars to defend herself in this defamation lawsuit now according to dr song's lawyers they call michelle's reviews quote outright lies that quote can inflict serious damage to a medical practice or small business quote just because you're allowed to and are able to doesn't mean you should do so without reservations about what you say. And that is Areva Martin, one of Song's lawyers. Quote, your First Amendment right does not give you the right to defame someone. Now, the review was only up for 16 days.

It was a one-star review. Michelle, what are you going to do? A million dollars plus legal fees? What will that do to you? Well, I mean, first of all, he's never going to get a million dollars from me because I don't have a million dollars. So that's first off, but I don't know what to do. It's been really awful. I think that a lot of victims of these frivolous lawsuits

don't come out because just by coming out, he put in a new motion that's going to cost me another $25,000 to defend. You know, he thinks that I should be, like, imprisoned now and retract all my comments, even though none of them have been proved. They have yet to prove in any way that anything I've said is a lie because they can't because I'm not lying. I'm also concerned about publishing your medical history

on the Internet, including information about mental health, personal information like a home address driver's license number that's disturbing yeah well he thinks it's his right to do so because i've been talking about it not i did not tell anyone anything he posted honestly i've i've just stayed with the review um but he thinks that because I'm okay with talking about it, that it's now his right, that he can post it because I don't care. And that's their main argument, or that it was in a place not that many people would see it. But that's saying, well, you can take anyone's patient history and post it anywhere as long as you don't think a lot of people are going to see it there. This is generally advice.

Truth is an absolute defense. Yeah. If you state the truth about your is a scam factory going on or that a lot of other women have had this same experience, you're going to have to prove that. Remember, truth is a complete defense. Now, what does this mean to Jennifer Zagowski, crime online investigative reporter? This doctor, Dr. Song, has over 200 views on ZocDoc. Most of them are positive. He gets a one and a half stars on Yelp. What does that mean for people not familiar with Yelp? Basically, if you're not familiar with Yelp, let's say today that I want to make

an appointment with OBGYN or dentist, and I want to see what other people's experiences were. So I'm going to Google the name plus reviews. And normally, Yelp is one of the first websites that comes up that will show, you know, people's experiences within that practice. And that goes the same for Dr. June Song's practice. Now, it's kind of interesting. When you go on to Yelp under Dr. June Song's name, there's an alert that comes up. It says active cleanup alert. This business, quote, this business recently made waves in the news, which often means that people come to this page to post their views on the news. While we don't take a stand one way or the other when it comes to these news events,

we do work to remove both positive and negative posts that appear to be motivated more by the news coverage itself than the reviewers personal consumer experience with the business goes on to say some other things about that but you know Michelle brought up something interesting to me last night as well when you're going through the Yelp reviews you see most of them to the naked eye look positive. Michelle has hers in there with one star and laying out everything, but most look positive. You have to actually look a little bit closer where it says 10 other reviews

that are not currently recommended. So you can see those, but you have to click on them in order to see them. So your average person who might not know much about Yelp won't know to also check out those reviews that are, you know, way at the bottom of Yelp, that they are not advertising like they are those five stars and then Michelle's one star. Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge, lawyer, and founder of ChildCrimeWatch.com. Ashley, all this, a million-dollar lawsuit over a Yelp review? Right, Nancy. Let's talk about consumer freedom of speech.

So we know that the First Amendment gives consumers the right to express their opinions. So long as, like you pointed out, they're honest, they can still be critical. And Yelp is an organization that does a lot of work to protect consumer freedom of speech. In fact, they were actually involved in legislation that President Obama signed in 2016 called the Consumer Review Fairness Act, which empowers and protects consumer speech online. So Yelp is a company that's going to protect consumers as much as they can. And in this case, I don't wonder, but if they learn of or know of this entire lawsuit, what recourse they may seek to prevent this in the future, so long as her review was honest.

You know, that's been passed in so many states. New York is not one of them. Now, see, I find that disturbing because Yelp is worldwide, right? So for it to be piecemeal, like you're protected in some states, but not New York. I find that to be very an unequal distribution of justice for say in Georgia, you're protected in New York. You're not. How can that be, Ashley? And that's part of the reason Yelp has gone to federal legislation, right? Because once you have a president signed federal legislation, as you well know, states can come up with different laws, but it can't violate any of the federal laws. So it's a work in progress and ongoing. But as these lawsuits come up that put consumers at such financial risk and emotional risk, I think Yelp's

going to continue to advocate for federal legislation that makes it a protected speech in every state. To Dr. Brian Russell joining us, not only a lawyer, but a psychologist and host of Investigation Discovery's hit series, Fatal Vows. Dr. Brian, you know, when I think about this woman, when I think about Michelle's predicament, she goes online, she posts a bad review, and gets sought with a million-dollar lawsuit. Yeah, there are a couple of things that I think I can add here as the only healthcare professional clinician, I think, that's on with us today. If I'm wrong, correct me.

But I do know, and this is not anything to do with this woman's review of this doctor. This is just an observation that I will share with you just for some context. There are a lot of defamatory reviews of healthcare professionals out there. For example, there are a lot of opioid seekers who will go to a doctor with some kind of a vague or flimsy sounding request for pain medication, not get it, and then go write a review that says, you know, this doctor doesn't care about patients. He left me in pain. He didn't mind that I was at least one lie in that review, then I see this woman not only winning but also getting her attorney's fees paid. for the doctor may not end there because it does sound as though, based on what she told us this morning, the lawyers have made filings that include protected health information that you can't just, you know,

if you're a doctor and your lawyers do something on your behalf, that's the same as you doing it. And you cannot publicize people's private health records, even in legal findings, sorry, even in legal filings, if they did not put their health at issue in the case. In this case, she didn't put her health at issue. The doctor put it at issue. And so, you know, I think there may be some serious consequences here for this doctor in terms of violation of this woman's privacy, even though it was the lawyers who did it. Oh, yeah. When your lawyers do it, that's the same as you doing it. And I'm just very concerned about putting her medical records online, filing them.

The lawyers had to know that would become public record. Just the whole scenario now here is um to ashley and dr brian maybe i'm splitting hairs but for michelle to say i got a bad i had a bad experience he didn't do a pelvic exam then he overcharged me it's not correct that's different from saying something like he's's running a scam factory. He does this all the time. He's making fake insurance money for things he didn't do. If you say something like that, Dr. Brian Russell, that's a different can of worms. That's absolutely right. And just for our listeners' education from that, you know, I always like listeners to be able to take away a lesson that can maybe help them avoid some trouble in their own lives. or Obamacare insurance policies have certain preventative services that are covered that do

not come off your deductible. You don't have to pay a deductible or anything. They are just included. You pay for them, of course, and your premiums throughout the year. But if you go, for example, I have something called a well-man exam in my coverage where I can go and have a basic checkup once a year without having to pay anything. It doesn't, I don't have to meet my deductible first, nothing like that. But if I go to that exam and at that exam, the doctor says, you know, you have a mole that doesn't look right to me. I would like to biopsy that, or I'm going to biopsy that, and I say, okay, go ahead, and they biopsy it. Okay, now that's not a preventative service at that point. That is a different thing that might be something

where I am going to have a charge now if I haven't met my deductible for the year. So always ask what they tell you they're going to do something else which would be the basic equivalent to her ultrasound yeah which is i guess more than preventative now this is exactly and i'm going to quote her review quote very poor and crooked business practice i suspect that this doctor gives a necessary procedure to a lot of people and then charges the insurance sky-high prices and no one knows the difference. Everything about my one and only visit here has caused me emotional distress and panic. And now they want me to cough up an extra $500 for services I didn't even need. That, to my understanding, was the review.

Two weeks later, she gets an email telling her she's being sued. Now, that's pretty serious, a million-dollar lawsuit. But we hear a very short review. However, it does say everything about my one-and-only experience has caused me distress and panic. That is not actionable. Now, here's a concern, very poor and crooked business practice. I suspect this doctor gives unnecessary procedures to a lot of people and charges the insurance sky-high prices, and no one knows the difference. Is that, Dr. Bryan, going beyond reviewing her experience?

So the only thing that you just quoted to me that I think could potentially be defamation is the word crooked because before she predicates the rest of it with, I suspect people can say that they suspect things, they think things, and that is an opinion. That's not defamatory, but saying that somebody is crooked is implying that they are dishonest or criminal. Now, one piece of good news for her is even if she were deemed to have defamed this doctor by saying he's crooked and the real truth is, you know, they just had a disagreement or she didn't understand or whatever about the services. He would still have to prove that she damaged him to the tune of a million dollars to get a million dollars. And that's never going to happen. He is never going to prove that she did a million dollars of damage to his reputation. So at least she can breathe a little bit easier on that.

Have you ever heard the phrase to Dr. Brian Russell or Ashley Wilcott, don't stir the pot? Have you ever heard that? My mom said that. Because I would be willing to bet that her Yelp review, one out of hundreds of Yelp reviews, good and bad, wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. But now that he sued her for a million dollars and put her medical records basically on the Internet by entering them into evidence on a public court record. Now he has gotten all that press. And now people do know about the bad review and the allegations.

If they didn't know about it before, they sure as heck know about them now. Now, some people would argue that's cutting off your nose to spite your face, Ashley Wilcott. Absolutely. I think he's trying to create his own damages and then blame her and say, if you hadn't written this review, I wouldn't have all these negative attention from media and people. And my frustration in this case is that there are lawyers that are going to start by saying, you owe us a million dollars. We're filing a lawsuit because this was defamation. Yelp specifically provides, as do most websites, recourse by writing a response, having messaging. So, you know, this doctor could have taken the high road and said, I disagree with her. I think it's defamation. She called me crooked. I'm going

to take steps to make certain that my patients that I care about know that I am not crooked, that I am not doing anything bad, that I am treating my patients well and written a response and done messaging and done a campaign on social media to correct the misconception that he believes she portrayed. Instead, they slap a big lawsuit and create a whole lot out of almost nothing. Joining me out of L.A. is my partner in crime, Alan Duke, along with Jackie Howard here in the studio with me. Alan, has she started a GoFundMe account? Yes, she has, Nancy. And first of all, you can read about it and see it and it's linked to in Jennifer's story on CrimeOnline.com.

That might be the best way to find it. Yep, you're right. Guys, this has gone haywire where a woman goes and gets her annual, or thinks she is, pelvic exam and ends up bringing home a $1 million lawsuit. You can find it at right to yelp with michelle levine for more on this story go to crimeonline.com for all the details including the gofundme site michelle levine facing a one million dollar lawsuit for a single Yelp review of a gynecologist she visited one time. Even if she wins the lawsuit, will she be out tens of thousands of dollars to defend

the lawsuit? If she were to win the lawsuit, the judge or jury could award her lawyer's fees. We wait to see as justice unfolds. Michelle Levine, women all over the country are watching your case. There's a brand new website causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody? Sus causing a lot of trouble for people with something to hide. Have you ever had a bad feeling about somebody? Suspected a partner of cheating?

Worried about your online reputation? If you answer yes to any of those questions, you may need Truthfinder. Truthfinder may reveal court records, bankruptcies, contact information, social, dating profiles, assets, and a lot more. You get it all in one easy-to-read report. Why fork out thousands of dollars to a private eye when you can do the job yourself? Go to truthfinder.com slash Nancy and enter any name to get started. A Florida woman gives birth to a stillborn baby boy, and now she is charged with murder of an infant girl. How does that work?

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. We're going live now to West Melbourne, Florida with John Limley, CrimeStories.com investigative reporter John Limley, the woman gives birth to a baby boy who is stillborn, and she's charged with the murder of an infant girl. Now, explain to me how that happened. Well, Nancy, officers received a 911 call shortly after 3 o'clock on a Sunday afternoon. A woman says she's given birth unexpectedly to a child that isn't breathing. When police arrive, they indeed find the child, it's a baby boy, unresponsive. While one cop is questioning the mom, other officers start looking over the scene. And they come across a pile of bloody towels next to a garbage can, and that's when they realize that there's

much more to the story than the mom is letting on. There inside the trash bin is the corpse of a newborn girl wrapped in a plastic grocery bag. In addition to those bloody towels that first tipped them off, they also find medical wrap and toilet paper stacked around. Someone has obviously tried to hide the evidence of another child. Whoa. Okay. I'm trying to take all of that in. Take a listen to the body cam from the cops who show up on the scene.

Let's hear it as it happens. Is the baby crying when you first gave birth? No? You don't remember if the baby was crying or anything like that? I don't know. There was only one, I think. I only felt one. Why? What do you mean you only felt one?

I only saw one. So let me understand this. To John Lindley, she said she didn't know there were two babies that she only gave birth to one correct while on the scene she's heard several times in the cop's body cam saying that she had no idea she was even pregnant before giving birth and there while still at the house while being treated at the hospital rachel claims she knew of only one child. She says she never saw the boy baby open his eyes, cry, or breathe, and that he was blue and cold to the touch, according to the police officers. She tells officers she had been at work around 9 a.m. on Sunday and began to feel unwell, came home, had no idea she was pregnant with twins, and gave birth trying to use the bathroom.

All right. Straight out to Ashley Wilcott, Atlanta juvenile judge, lawyer, founder of childcrimewatch.com, and mother, most importantly in this scenario. Ashley, it's kind of hard to believe you're pregnant with twins and you didn't know you were pregnant. You know, it's hard to believe. Unfortunately, as a judge in juvenile court, I see this, that parents, mothers come in and say, I didn't even know I was pregnant. Generally, most often it's because they're on drugs.

There's obviously an issue with them and they are out of it and don't even realize it's unbelievable. It's unacceptable. But I see it happen. And I can promise you that hospital is going to have a toxicology report pending. So far, we don't know anything about this woman being on drugs. But what we do know is she claimed she had no idea she was pregnant with twins. She had no idea she gave birth to twins. That she only knew about one baby boy that was born stillborn. So, Dr. Brian Russell, lawyer, psychologist, and host of the hit series on investigation discovery, Fatal Vows.

How is it that police find a second baby, an infant girl, dead in a plastic bag beneath a bag of cat litter. The baby is wrapped in a plastic bag hidden under used cat litter. Help me out, Dr. Bryan. Well, so here is, I think what Ashley said is true. I've seen similar cases. However, anytime and you and I talk about this all the time in many types of cases, anytime you see somebody who is professing to be out of it and you think, well, maybe there's substance abuse, maybe there's mental illness, whatever. And then you start to see active concealment. You start to, I mean, it's a form of lying, right? Okay, so right there, you've got somebody who is conscious of having done something wrong. And, you know, we get the excuse going all the way back to Casey Anthony of, well, I was scared, I panicked. Okay, that doesn't cut it. People who get scared and panicked call

for help and they get it but people who are scared and panicked because they know that if the help comes they're going to be in trouble start concealing and then when they get caught concealing making up lies now according to her Rachel Thomas she had no idea she was pregnant and, in fact, continued having a menstrual cycle up until the time of the birth. To Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, isn't that biologically impossible? Yes. Yes, it is, Nancy. And she's essentially trying to get these people to think that she's delusional when you see what's done, what has been done to these little angels that are no longer with us. Yeah, I don't think that that's accurate. Well, you know, Ashley Wolcott, you sound like you're kind of taking her side.

That maybe she had a drug problem. Maybe she had some. What about the baby, the two dead babies? They're the ones with the problem. Yeah, I'm absolutely not taking her side. I think it's horrific. I think you are, Ashley. How you see it all the time, and they don't know better, and they have a drug problem.

Wah, wah. No, I don't believe that they get away with the excuse of i have a drug problem that's a person's choice and she has abused neglected murdered two children as a result so i absolutely think it's horrible for these children but you know quite frankly i'm pretty black and white stop doing drugs well here again i don't have any information that she was doing drugs but i do know this i know what the autopsy says the autopsy says that the the babies died of blunt force trauma to the head that's what i know is that correct john limley and the autopsies revealed that the uh the two twins were 38 weeks old. You mean 38 weeks in gestation. They're not 38 weeks old.

Correct, correct. Which means that they were almost full term, Ashley Wilcott. If they were 38 weeks, I mean, my children, the twins were in NICU for so long because they were just at 30 weeks when they were born. And we all know, and as a mother, your body changes. So you know when you're pregnant. There's sides, right?

Your stomach gets bigger and you don't have a period. There are lots of physical results of being pregnant. The blunt force trauma to me changes the entire picture of what's happened. She, I would argue, knew she was pregnant, had two kids and murdered them. According to an affidavit filed by West Melbourne police and obtained now, Thomas changed her story several times, denying she gave birth to more than one baby, claiming that she gave birth to the baby boy, wrapped him up in a shirt, never saw him open his eyes or cry or breathe and began, quote, cleaning up the mess. But there's more than that, John Lindley. It was in the ER that she repeats that statement about being aware of just one child. Then, and get this, just one minute later, her story changes. She now says she gave birth to twins. None of them made any noise or anything else. Okay, how many was there? There was two. There was two. And they were both dead,

and I got scared. There we hear her, and one of her story changes, admitting that there were two babies. To Alan Duke. Alan, what can you tell me about computer searches? Well, as you know, when you do a thorough investigation, you go and you look at what people have been doing on Google and elsewhere on their computers. And guess what they found that this lady allegedly did. They found she had been searching just a couple of weeks earlier how to induce labor. What would that tell you, she was thinking? What would that tell you she was thinking what would that tell you dr brian russell you're the shrink sounds to me like she knew she was pregnant guys we are waiting for justice to unfold and what potentially is a double murder case will the case

be pled down because they were infants that lost their. We see that happen so often. But this is what we know. Two infants dead of blunt force trauma to the head. Lying to police. Apparently trying to induce labor. One infant girl. Interesting she picked the girl to wrap up in a plastic bag and hide under used kitty litter. John Lindley, are there other children in the home? Rachel has two other children, and deputies say they're now staying with a relative.

Online court records show that Rachel has submitted a plea of not guilty, and she's currently locked up without the option of posting bond. I can only hope that this case isn't swept under the rug with a light plea. And this woman goes on to do the same thing again. Believe me, it happens. Yeah. And it's a consequence of, you know, this is what happens when you have a country where, you know, I don't want to upset anybody on the

panel, but when you have a country where, you know, it's legal to have abortion just for convenience. I'm not talking about rape and incest and all that. I'm just talking about just for birth control. You know, after the fact, birth control reasons, people get desensitized to the value of the life of an infant. And they see something like this and they're like, well, yeah, it's bad, but it's not as bad as if she would

have killed a one month old or a one year old or a 10 year old. And, you know, I'm sitting there going, yeah, it is to me. The thought of that is overwhelming. The only thing we can do now is hope for justice. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. Did you know about a recent law that could leave your personal data exposed online for anybody to find? If you've turned on the news lately, you know the Internet has created a dangerous new world. Data breaches expose private information.

There's a new cybersecurity threat every other day. And criminals can sell the identity of you and your family on the dark web. It's time you take the power back by using a new website called Truthfinder. Truthfinder allows you to find out exactly what information exists about you online. Have you gotten a speeding ticket? Received a lien from the IRS? Forgotten about an embarrassing social media profile? Truthfinder searches through millions of public records, puts all that data together in one easy to read report. Members get unlimited searches so you can also look up those

close to you and make sure they're not hiding something from their past. You also get free dark web monitoring to make Truthfinder the ultimate tool in identity protection. If your personal info appears for sale on the dark web, you'll be the first to know. Visit truthfinder.com slash Nancy. Enter your own name. Get started. This is an iHeart Podcast.