Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Young college sophomore found purple, DEAD, after 'HAZING'

Episode Date: April 2, 2021

Stone Foltz, a business major at Bowling Green, dies after consuming a handle of alcohol during a pledge party. Foltz was taking part in a fraternity ritual. The Foltz family's attorney, Rex Elliott, says the 20-year-old was taken to a basement at an off-campus fraternity house, blindfolded and told he couldn’t leave until he finished the equivalent of 40 shots in a short time. Elliott says when Foltz was then left at his apartment alone. His blood alcohol was .394.Joining Nancy Grace today: Jim Piazza, Father of Timothy Piazza, Anti-Hazing Activist, Founding Member of the Anti Hazing Coalition and Parent United to Stop Hazing (PUSH) Rex H. Elliott - Foltz Family Attorney, Cooper & Elliott Co-Founder and Owner, cooperelliott.com, Twitter: @cooperelliott, Stone Folta GoFundMe: Search "Stone Foltz Memorial Fund" Dr. Susan Lipkins, Psychologist and Hazing Expert, Author: "Preventing Hazing", insidehazing.com, Justin Boardman - Former Special Victim's Unit Detective, West Valley City Police Department (Utah), Author (upcoming): " I WAS WRONG: An Investigators Battle-cry for Change Within the Special Victim's Unit" www.justinboardman.com Twitter: @boardman_train Dr. Priya Banerjee, M.D.  [BANNER-JEE] - Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting, Assistant Medical Examiner Jay Maguire - Parents and Alumni for Student Safety (PASS) Founder, www.EndHazing.org, Facebook: "Parents and Alumni for Student Safety" Amy Steigerwald - Reporter, WTOL 11, Bowling Green Graduate (2018), @amysteigerwald, Facebook: @AmySteigerwaldTV Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a sophomore, a young sophomore at Bowling Green State University end up dead. Along with so many other youngsters dead at college and university all across our country. He's just the latest. Why?

And why can't it stop? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You think it's not real? Take a listen to this. Look, honey, name 11? What is your emergency? Hi. Someone that we know is non-responsive. He drank alcohol, like a lot of alcohol. Where is he at?

We're at... How old is your friend? He's 20. 20? Okay. And what's he doing right now? He's laying down on his side. His face is really purple, and his pupils aren't responsive.

Okay. Is he breathing? Yeah, he's breathing, but it's really shallow. And he's been drinking, you said? Yeah. Okay. Is he taking anything else we need, you said? Yeah. Okay. Is he taking anything else we need to know about? No.

What's your name? Okay. Stanley Paget. Okay. Are you positive he's breathing? Yeah. Yeah, I'm positive. Do you see his chest rising up and down?

No, not right now. Okay. And he's blue? Yeah. Okay, then there's a good chance he's not breathing. I want you to get down. Is he on the floor? Yeah, he is. Okay, do you see his chest rising at all?

She said, does he see his chest rising? I don't see it rising. Okay, do you know how to do CPR, or do you want me to walk you through it? She said we don't do CPR or do you want me to walk you through it? Is there somebody else there that can do CPR? I can walk you guys through it. Think about it. If this is your child that's literally turning purple,

take a listen to more of that 911 call. Oh, my God. Okay, listen to more of that 911 call. Oh my God. Is it rising or down? Oh my God. No. Put someone else on the phone. Put someone else on the phone right now that will help him. Excuse me, ma'am. Okay. His face is very purple. Okay, let's do CPR. Okay.

You feel comfortable? Someone's doing CPR. Someone is doing CPR right now? Yes, they're crying. Yes. I'm sorry. I really got PTSD. Listen, calm down and take it to the front.

Listen, listen. I'm going to help you. Do they know how to do CPR? Okay. Okay. Give the phone to the person doing CPR. It just hurts me to hear it. This is just one example of so many joining me, literally an all-star panel. First, I want to introduce to you a very special guest, Jim Piazza, the father of Timothy Piazza, one of the first victims to bring our attention to this national epidemic claiming the lives of teens every day at colleges and universities. He is an anti-hazing activist, founding member of the Anti-Hazing Coalition, Parent United to Stop Hazing, that's

PUSH, and you can find out more about him at LiveLikeTim.org. And although I know that 911 call is not about Timothy, his son, I know it's got to hurt him so deeply, but he is here to help bring about change. Also with me, Rex Elliott, Fultz family lawyer at Cooper and Elliott, co-founder owner, cooperelliot.com, Twitter at Cooper Elliott, and he's directing us to the Stone Fultz GoFundMe. You can search it at the Stone Faults Memorial Fund. To Dr. Susan Lipkins, psychologist, hazing expert, author of Preventing Hazing. And you can find her at a website, Inside Herman, former special victim unit detective at West Valley City PD. Author of I Was Wrong, Investigator Battle Cry for Change Within the Special Victims Unit.

You can find him at JustinBordman.com, on Twitter at at Bordman underscore train, Dr. Priya Banerjee, board-certified forensic pathologist, anchor, ForensicPathology.com, assistant ME medical examiner. I know you were doing a backflip, doctor, when you were hearing the girl saying, he's purple and doing nothing. Jay McGuire, parents and alumni for student safety. That's past founder. And you can find him at endhazing.org or on Facebook, parents and alumni for student safety. But first, to Amy Steigerwald, reporter WTOL 11 Bowling Green grad. You can find her on Insta at Amy Steigerwald, on Facebook at Amy Steigerwald TV.

Amy, I want you to listen to more of that 911 call. Who's doing CPR? He's doing CPR. Okay, put on speakerphone and let me talk to him. Okay. Do you know how to do CPR or do you need me to help you? Roughly. I was in Boy Scouts a long time ago. Okay, did you make sure he has nothing in his mouth that's causing him not to breathe?

No, he has nothing in his mouth. Okay, did you tilt his head back and everything and make sure? Yeah. Okay, did you start CPR? Yeah. Okay, you have the heel of one hand in the center of his breastbone and between his nipples and you're pushing down hard? Yep.

Okay, let's count. Ready? One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30. Do you feel comfortable giving him two breaths or do you want to keep the compression? That 911 call goes on and on. You hear women screaming in the background. Before I go to Amy Steigerwald, to Jim Piazza, the father of Timothy Piazza. Timothy died during a similar hazing stunt.

Jim, thank you for being with us. Yeah, you're welcome. Jim, I don't think it's real to a lot of people. And that's why, as I did so often in opening statements, play the 911 call to start with. It's real. Yeah. These are teens dying.

You work your whole life, all your money, all your love, all your energy, your hopes, your dreams are poured into your children. For this to happen? When you heard that 911 call, what went through your mind? Nancy, I'm shaking from that 911 call right now. I picture my son on the other end of that. I know that call wasn't about him, but this is very real, and it happens far more than we know about. Jim Piazza, father of Timothy Piazza, all I could think about were my children.

And being in this situation, situation literally your child is dying and you have nothing around them but a bunch of other teens like themselves most of them drunk or high doing nothing as your child is lying there dying to amy ste Steigerwald, WTOL 11. What happened? In this case, we're talking about a sophomore there at Bowling Green, Stone Fultz. What happened, Amy? Yeah, so the details surrounding this case have been pretty dicey from what we've been able to find out on the record. Police have been pretty silent based off what we have talked to them this morning.

They still have absolutely no details regarding charges, regarding any information about how many people they're interviewing. From what I know, I am a Bowling Green State University grad, and where he was supposedly found is not where the party would have happened. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What we are learning right now, the victim was a sophomore at Bowling Green State University in an alleged hazing incident involving alcohol. In other words, downing 40 shots, 40 shots at the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity,

the Delta Beta chapter, in a pledge hazing ritual. I know that Stone Foltz, just turned 20, was a business major, and before he went to the party that night, I know that Stone Foltz, just turned 20, was a business major. And before he went to the party that night, he told his roommate he would be forced to, quote, drink a handle. What is a handle? It's 40 shots over twice the size of a fifth of a gallon. That's 59.2 fluid alcohol ounces of any alcohol the big gives them. The big would be the big brother. And they had to finish the whole thing before they left. I want to go straight out to our friend, Dr. Priya Banerjee, assistant medical examiner, board certified forensic pathologist.

40 shots, twice the size of a fifth of a gallon. That could kill anybody. Absolutely. I just wanted to interject as a mom myself, you know, everything you said as a parent, my heart just breaks. This is an otherwise completely healthy young man and budding career, studying hard. And then this one incident, we see this, it's alcohol intoxication. I mean, a young, healthy person and the back story, I mean, it's insane. You are so right. And imagine what the parents are going through.

Take a listen to our cut. Hey, this is Will Reeve, ABC. Stone's parents say they got a phone call around midnight. He was found not breathing. They had to revive him, and he is on a ventilator keeping him alive. So we spent two hours driving to his school, holding my wife's hand, praying in my mind that Stone was going to be okay. No parent should have to sit in their car wondering if their son's going to be okay.

The roommate of a Pi Kappa Alpha pledge telling a local station that pledges were told to drink a handle of alcohol and finish it before they could leave. A handle contains around 40 shots. After four days and four nights in the hospital, Stone Foltz was declared brain dead. So to me, he was forced into something that the outcome is he was murdered. Straight out to Rex Elliott, the Foltz family lawyer, representing the family of this young man, Stone Foltz. What is happening? I don't understand how this continues to go on and on. And the college, what, suspended the fraternity?

Same thing's going to happen. They'll just have a party somewhere else. 100%. And the national fraternity doesn't step up and do something about it. And it goes on and on. I've had far too many of these cases. And by the way, Nancy, we do have a lot of detail about what happened that night. Stone Fultz joined this fraternity to network for a resume building.

He saw red flags that this wasn't good. And that night he was brought in. He was told to take his tie off. They blindfolded him, took him down to a basement along with the other pledges, and forced them to drink a handle of alcohol before they were allowed to leave. Then the active members took Stone Fultz, a completely incapacitated Stone Fultz, to his apartment and left him there, left him on the couch, face down on the couch by himself. And by the way, clear up one quick thing. While that young woman was on the 911 call, his roommate had come home. He was a Boy Scout. He was performing CPR at the time. But that's what they did. These actives forced him to drink. A 150-pound kid who really didn't even have a long drinking history. And they left him at the apartment all by himself to slowly die at the hospital hours later his blood alcohol content was 0.394 i have called nationally for every university to shut down fraternities right now and make them demonstrate that they can be a positive influence on each campus in this country

and if they can come back zero tolerance one act one act of hazing, no matter how small, and they're gone forever. Until we do things like that, unfortunately, we're going to lose more innocent young lives. And the reality to, let me go back to you, Rex Elliott, the legal limit in most states for drunk driving is 0.08. You're telling me that the victim in this case, Stone Foltz, was.394..394, Nancy, and it was literally, this event started at nine o'clock in the evening, and Stone Foltz was dropped off at 10.30 at night, 90 minutes to do this to this perfectly healthy, bright young kid. His body just could not take it. Take a listen to our cut nine. Adrienne Roberts, this is NBC4 Columbus.

Those brothers that said they were going to be there with Stone, who were not. You have to live with that the rest of your life. Stone's roommate found him around 11. He was rushed to the hospital and soon put on life support. His family kept him alive for four days, They found him around 11. He was rushed to the hospital and soon put on life support. His family kept him alive for four days, allowing him to donate his organs. Stone's double lung recipient is a gentleman in his 50s. Stone's heart was successfully transplanted in a woman in her 20s.

It's a legacy his parents know Stone would be proud of. But his parents want another legacy for him, saving other students from hazing. How concerned are you that there could be another Stone Faults this weekend or the following weekend? If you step back and look at it, spring pledge is ongoing right now. There could be another case like the Stone Faults that could happen tonight. And everyone just keeps sending their children to school after sinking all their hopes and dreams, money, effort, years of work to pay that tuition for them to die of alcohol poisoning. It's not just stone folds. As I was preparing for this case, the more I looked, there's this legislation and that legislation.

Every state that I looked at that has legislation is named after a dead student. And you know better than anybody, Jim Piazza, drink until they die, they are reduced and they walk free. Yeah, unfortunately, Nancy, that is very much the case. We really need tougher laws throughout the country. Make hazing a felony where someone is significantly hurt or they die. But we also need prosecutors to prosecute. That's not happening. They need to go after this with a vengeance. I've been back and forth with the prosecutor at Cornell, and there's no charges that have been raised there at all. And at the end of the day, we need stiff sentencing. When we start to see that and

universities expelling students that engage in hazing then i think we're going to see movement because it's happening elsewhere outside of fraternities and sororities too but we need these things to happen yes it is and you know what what i was looking at to dr susan lipkins following up on what jim piazza just said the father of timothy piazza who lost his life uh dr susan lipkin is joining us, and you can find her at InsideHazing.com. When I was researching for this very moment, you know what I found out? That most hazing statutes treat hazing, even under these conditions, like an unpaid parking ticket.

It's just a minor ordinance. It's nothing. What about that, Lipkins? Dr. Lipkins, how's that supposed to leave parents feeling? Yeah, it's incredibly difficult to understand. And I've been studying this for like 20 years. And every weekend, there's probably somebody who's either going to die or almost die. And unfortunately, that the beat goes on. I don't think actually that felony laws is enough. I think we really need to have an agency like the CDC that's following hazing, bullying, and harassment

kinds of cases. And I actually think that this is going to change under the following conditions. When the students who are in the fraternities and sororities decide, like the women in the Me Too movement, that they're not going to take it anymore, that they band together as a group and say, no more. We're not doing it. You're not going to have power over us. We're not going to drink the alcohol. And it can't be done individually because that kid would be hazed. It has to be done as a group from the inside. And the other group is the group of parents, because, you know, a lot of times the parents are funding it. They're paying for the fraternity and fraternities and sororities are like, you know, a remnant from the last century. The story, the concept that these kids walked away and just dropped him off at his apartment goes on every single case and they have a code of silence that keeps them quiet so that everybody investigating cannot get into the information and therefore the cases don't move along.

It's a huge kind of conspiracy that you know the entire Greek movement has been supporting. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, another young student dead after a night of hazing and forced drinking. For many people, especially women, they go through initiation. They may get flowers from their big sister or they may get taken out for a surprise 6 a.m. pancake breakfast. But that has taken a deadly turn turn especially when it comes to male fraternities take a listen to this three hours that's around the amount of time

between the last text stone sent his mother and the call his parents received saying something was wrong I joked with him I said okay well I'm gonna ask you around ten he said haha oh. And I never called him. So I have that to live with the rest of my life. It's a nice sherry replays often. That's the hard part. The guilt on March 4th. Her

son stone faults was pledging a fraternity at BGSU. He told his mom he had something called a big little. It was a drinking ritual and he wasn't looking forward to it. I said, well, please be smart about it. at BGSU. He told his mom he had something called a big little. It was a drinking ritual and he wasn't looking forward to it. I said well please be smart about it. He said I will. Those words of that mother trying to grapple with the death of her son waiting in the hospital to have his organs

harvested after a drinking hazing ritual leaves him dead. To Jay McGuire, parents and alumni for student safety, that's PASS, P-A-S-S, founder, and you can find him at endhazing.org. Jay McGuire, weigh in. Nancy, I can't sit here as a fraternity advisor and defend decades of inattention or inaction on the part of fraternity nationals and fraternity alumni. But I can tell you that some of the statements by some of the guests here are just plain wrong. We are as committed to ending hazing as anybody else in this equation, but we're fighting an uphill battle with a drinking

culture among young people that is layered on top of a culture of impunity and silence that we're as dumbfounded by it as everybody else. What I can tell you is that along with my friend Jim Piazza, we have changed the law in my home state of Texas to make it easier to prosecute. And we're doing everything we can to call attention to medical providers, especially EMTs, so that they will know it when they see it and report it. We have worked with institutions, universities, and colleges to increase transparency for those organizations that are found to have hazing, that they are published on websites so that students and parents know not to go there. And we are educating every chance we can about how wrong hazing is and the dangers of massive overconsumption of hard liquor. Let me ask you, Jay McGuire, if you know which organizations are hazing in this manner and you're directing parents and students to a website, my question is, why are they still even there?

Yeah, good question. Don't know the answer to that, Nancy. As far as I'm concerned, if an organization sponsors hazing the organization should be banned permanently i agree justin boardman former special victim unit detective jump in justin first off my heart goes out to the families i think a lot of it can be solved by going after some of the enablers prosecutors that are not that are using their discretion incorrectly, from my view, as well as going after the enablers when it comes to the fraternities. And I mean that by possible criminal charges or civil charges, for sure. You know, too, Jim Piazza, father of Timothy Piazza, I agree with everything we just heard. But the reality is, is it's not happening.

It's not happening. There had been dozens of young people, basically teens, dead at the hands of hazing so-called rituals before your son was a victim. And there have been so many since Timothy was a victim. Nothing is happening. Why? Well, I think there are some things happening. But again, it's a slow process.

We're dealing with legislators who take their time in enacting laws. And you were right about it. You see a felony law come into place when someone dies. And we've got to get beyond that we don't need a name on every law we just need stiffer laws and prosecution and sentencing of those of those laws um there are things that that we're trying to get done by educating students and and all that but at the end of the day they keep turning over you have alumni that that you know foster some of this behavior.

If you don't see teeth, if you don't see things happening to the students that are committing these crimes, parents are just going to keep saying, all right, that's fine. Just go ahead and be careful and whatnot. And things are going to continue because the students turn over every three, four years. You need to see examples of people. I can't go when I make a presentation and show a list that all the faces that went to jail because of hazing crimes. I can't because they don't exist. We need that. Nancy, can I just, oh, sorry, jump in. Sure, jump in. I think, you know, one of the biggest things I see of the medical person on the panel is, you know, sadly, I see these young, healthy students

at their worst, right? They've passed away from this. And I think two huge points need to be made in the education slash prevention. College students are going to drink. Let's just assume that. But no amount of tolerance is going to prepare a young, healthy person to withstand the toxicity of this much alcohol. You know, and that's really, even without a, with a drinking history, let's say, it's just impossible. I mean, what is your point? Blood alcohol is 0.394. I mean,

so, you know, that's alcohol intoxication. And I think the awareness of just basic awareness, you can't do this and survive. It's going to be lethal. To Amy's Tiger Wall reporter, WTOL 11, there in Bowling Green, excuse me, Bowling Green grad. Amy, what more do we know about that night? You know, like we were saying, the police have still been really silent about how many people they're talking with and how many people they're looking into. But going back to what you were talking about as far as, you know, calling for justice on these organizations, this is not the first time that Bowling Green, specifically this fraternity, has had an issue and caused controversy on the campus. And a lot of students are angry that they are still, you know, they are banned. They are, you know, temporarily banned, but they haven't been fully taken off the campus. And that is something that many students have been calling for.

There have been peaceful protests. There have been, you know. Well, Amy, let me ask you, when you say this isn't the first time, what happened before with this group? There have been some controversial posts that they've put on social media that have outraged some, you know, certain minority groups on campus. What, racist posts? Yes, they have been putting things online. And a few years back, they had an incident, I want to say, where they were dressing up that you know caused a couple of people to be angry. What did they allegedly dress up as? It was I want to say near back in 2016 where they had

dressed up I believe it it was in some sort of Mexican outfit that caused some controversy on campus. Okay all All right. Right there. Right there. They should have been thrown out. Right there. If Bowling Green State University had any, let me just say, backbone, they would have been thrown out then. So don't come crying and joining the morning and I feel your pain, all that.

B.S. Do something about it. And I think that's how many of the students feel right now. And they've done nothing, just like all the other universities where there have been hazing deaths, nothing. And I urge parents, please, before you pack your children up and send them off to school, look online, find out if this is happening at the university or college where you're sending your child the jewel in your crown for Pete's sake. I want you to take a listen to this. Tonight, Stone Foltz's family says the 20-year-old was apprehensive before he left for an alleged drinking event at a Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity house. I said, well, that sounds really

stupid. Why do you have to do it? And he said, it's just part of the ritual. I have to, but I don't want to. And I said, we'll be smart about it. His mother said on that March 4th night she texted Stone a sophomore pledge at Bowling Green State University in Ohio to check in and with a promise to call later. I said, well, then I'll call you at 10 to check up on you. And I never made that call. So it's something I have to live with the rest of my life. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

The more I look into it, every state that has laws against it are named after a dead student. Take a listen to our Cut 19. This is Chip Reid, CBS. Eric Oaks says his son Adam last texted him I love you Friday night before he went to a Delta Chi fraternity party. If you knew Adam, all he wanted to do was be one of the guys. Courtney White, Adam's first cousin, says another student at the party told them Adam passed out on a couch after being told to drink an entire bottle of Jack Daniels whiskey. Around 9 a.m., this young boy, Adam, found face down unresponsive. The fraternity brothers had rolled him over, said his face was purple. He died. Okay, take a listen to our cut 20, Dan Harris, ABC. The horror that played out inside a frat house at Penn State University as a 19-year-old lay dying after a night of alcohol fueled hazing,

the fraternity brothers allegedly did little to help. Instead, their concern was reportedly how to cover it all up. Tonight, we hear from the one student who says he tried to help. That I kind of like lost it. I was like, I was screaming and yelling. I was saying, we need to take him to a hospital.

We should call an ambulance, dial 911. That victim was Timothy Piazza. And with me is Tim's father. Sir, when you hear that, I almost hate to play it for you, but somehow I feel it's my duty to warn parents what's happening. Yeah, I mean, look, this is happening on a regular basis. More than we know, we know of so many situations where people were near death but didn't die.

They survived, and they are forced into secrecy themselves because they're afraid of the repercussions, which is terribly sad. We also learn about deaths that happened years ago, which no one ever reported, but we see a civil lawsuit come through, but there was never a criminal prosecution. Never a criminal prosecution. You're right. Listen to this. Our Cut 25, this is Mark Strassman at CBS. Champion died at the hospital from internal bleeding and blunt force trauma.

Shawn Johnson testified some fellow band members tried to cover up their role in Champion's death. It kind of amazes me how people in the band, they're mad at the people that are telling on things that are happening in the band, and they're not mad about his death. Pam and Robert Champion Sr., his parents, today claimed band members are still involved in a cover-up. I can't say what the charge should be. Another young student dead. There's so many. Listen to this. This is our Cut 22. David Wright at ABC.

This victim, Colin Wendt. This was the frantic phone call in the early hours of the morning. The caller, a friend your emergency? Hello, I think my friend drank a little too much. The caller, a friend of Colin Wyant, an 18-year-old pledge at Ohio University's Sigma Pi fraternity. Okay, is he responsive? He was, and then he kind of laid back, started passing out. Wyant was in his freshman year at Ohio, an honors student.

He played basketball and sang in the choir. His family devastated. Then our cut 23, Maxwell Groover, just 18 years old at LSU. Listen, this is ABC's GMA. This morning, new details in the death of 18-year-old fraternity pledge Max Groover. Why did his life have to end so early? A preliminary autopsy report revealing that Groover, a freshman who was pledging the Phi Delta Theta fraternity at Louisiana State University, had a highly elevated blood alcohol level and the presence of THC, a chemical found in marijuana, in his system. Groover was rushed from Phi Delta Theta's fraternity house to a hospital Wednesday night where he later died. LSU immediately shutting down all Greek activities.

Campus police now investigating if hazing played a part in his death. Yes, it did. Like it did in all of these cases. I've got a stack of paper of all these young people, teens, dead from alcohol poisoning due to hazing incidents. To Rex H. Elliott, the Foltz family lawyer, and he is directing us to Stone Foltz GoFundMe. Search Stone Foltz Memorial Fund. Rex Elliott, this has been going on for years and years and years.

What are we going to do? Do you have any solution? Well, Nancy, and I represent the Wyatt family as well. And in that case, the fraternity members organized after they found out Colin was died and they initiated all the pledges and they got their story straight. And it's a code of silence. The reality is this. These are 18 to 22 year old boys. They don't have judgment. And when they organize collectively and they don't have adult supervision and guidance, this is a recipe for disaster. I applaud all of the legislative

efforts. I completely agree that there should be criminal prosecutions and civil cases and the whole nine yards. But until universities say on our campus, one incident in hazing, I don't care if it's somebody walking around with a backpack or running on a lunch run, because guess what? Those lead to the types of things that we're seeing every day until universities say one more time and you're gone forever. And if that means we eradicate the fraternity system altogether in this country, then so be it. It's 2021 and we shouldn't have one more innocent kid dead on a college campus because of this nonsense. I agree. Jay McGuire with PASS, what is your best recommendation? Because what's being done now

obviously is not working. Yeah, I think banning fraternities is a distraction from what has to happen, individual accountability and prosecutions. Universities have been hesitant to actually pull the trigger on enforcing their own rules, and local prosecutors always give a pass to the perpetrators, even in cases that are so clear-cut. So you can ban fraternities if you like. It's going to keep happening. Young men who get together without supervision under any circumstances are always going to take risks that

they shouldn't take. What's different about this situation is the massive overconsumption of hard alcohol that has become normalized in the culture right now. That is relatively new. But what I hear you saying, Jay McGuire, is basically boys will be boys and there's really nothing we can do about it. No, no, Nasty. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it's time to start throwing the book at people when they do things that are clearly wrong.

That's what needs to happen. The universities and the national fraternities are providing the vehicle for these 18- to 22-year-old kids to overconsume alcohol and to behave in ritualistic tendencies like this. That is what's happening. You take away that or you put a zero-tolerance policy in place and they're gone at some point because they can't behave responsibly, 18 to 22-year-old boys will have a difficult, very difficult time coming together and organizing and engaging in behavior like this.

To Justin Boardman, former Special Victims Unit detective, earlier he was brought out about Me Too, how it became more okay for sex assault victims to speak out. Why can't there be a hotline for people to call anonymously to say, this is happening here. We're being hazed. Help us stop it. There's nothing being done to stop this. Yes, I think that the hotline's a great idea. I think that the reporting and going after the enablers as well of this whole drinking culture is very important as well.

Dr. Susan Lipkins, I think I heard you jumping in. Was that you? Yes. I wanted to tell you, I went to Washington in like 2003, trying to get a National Hazing Prevention Act. And I realized as I walked around Congress that most of these people themselves have been in Greek organizations and their children were currently in the Greek organizations. And it would be very rare that they would vote in any kind of legislation which would get rid of this whole fraternity and sorority system. So you're basically saying to get rid of the whole Greek system.

That's your answer? Because that's not going to happen. I would definitely get rid of the whole Greek system. Okay. I understand you would, and a lot of other victims' parents feel the same way, but I'm trying to tackle this in a way that I think it's achievable. To Jim Piazza, I really believe a hotline solution, no tolerance. And to me, no tolerance means once it happens, you're booted permanently from campus.

I think it should be part of every freshman's, let me just say, entrance into college, their orientation. Absolutely. That they are given a class on this. I mean, there are a lot of things that can be done that are not being done. Help me, Jim. So, Nancy, there are hotlines in certain schools. We've been lobbying for that in other schools. We absolutely need zero tolerance in the schools. We've been lobbying for that in other schools. We absolutely need zero

tolerance in the universities. They need to say one and done, you're out. Get rid of them. Also, in the state legislation that we're peddling around the country, if the national fraternity or the alumni that are overseeing a particular local chapter know about any hazing that's going on, they can be held criminally liable and under a felony law. And I think that's important because if we start seeing some of those organizations held under a felony law, as well as the individuals being held accountable, we will see movement. It's not plausible. I should be saying get rid of the Greek system. I've seen so many instances of organizations going underground because they were pulled of their letters. So that will just continue.

They'll reform to something else. We need some people that we can show went to jail for a significant period of time for committing these crimes. What happened to Robert Champion is the most egregious thing. He was beat to death in any other environment. That's murder. Why wasn't it murder with Robert Champion? I mean, I just don't understand. We wait as justice unfolds, God willing. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.