Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Young mom & 3-year-old tot son decomposing in woods: WHO MURDERED KARISSA & BABY BILL FRETWELL

Episode Date: June 26, 2019

Young mom Karissa Fretwell and her 3-year-old son, Billy, go missing. After a desperate search, their bodies are found in the woods. The neighbor's hear a fight in the days leading up to their disappearance. That leads investigators to a suspect Karissa has close ties to.Nancy's expert panel weighs in:Joseph Scott Morgan: Forensics expert, and author of “Blood Beneath My Feet”Caryn Stark:    PsychologistPaula Notari: Criminal Defense Attorney & Federal Trial AttorneyDr. Tim Gallagher:    Medical Examiner for the State of FloridaDavid Mack:    Syndicated Radio Host Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Carissa Frentwell's family contacted police Friday saying they hadn't seen or heard from her or her son Billy since the day after Mother's Day. Our Amy Frazier is live in Northwest Salem right now outside of Carissa's apartment. What have you found out, Amy? THE FAMILY IS IN THE HOSPITAL AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A PERSON TO HELP THEM OUT. THEY SAY IT'S THE DAY AFTER MOTHER'S DAY. OUR AMY FRASER IS LIVE IN

NORTHWEST SALEM RIGHT NOW OUTSIDE OF KERISA'S APARTMENT. WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND OUT, AMY? RIGHT NOW POLICE ARE RELEASING VERY LITTLE INFORMATION ABOUT THIS CASE. NEIGHBORS TELL ME 25-YEAR-OLD KERISA FRENTWELL WAS TYPICALLY

QUIET AND KEPT TO HERSELF. ONE NEIGHBOR BELIEVES SHE MAY HAVE WORKED A SECURITY JOB. neighbor believes she may have worked a security job. They also recall seeing her with her son, Billy, who's three. Several neighbors say a family member came by a few days ago worried about Carissa and her son, saying no one had seen or heard from them since May 13th. A couple that lives right behind Carissa says they've noticed her TV has been on non-stop with the same screen displayed for days. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Carissa and William Fretwell. Carissa, a 25-year-old mom, little Bill, her three-year-old child go missing. that's not a good sign. Very, very ominous for the TV to be on. Now that in itself is not unusual. Maybe she left it on while she was going to the grocery store. Maybe she left it on for a number of reasons, but it clearly shows they're not in the home for the same screen to

be displayed. And when three days pass, you know something's very, very wrong. Listen to our friend Amy Frazier at KOIN6. Carissa Fretwell and her son Billy disappeared the day after Mother's Day. Our Amy Frazier met with police and their neighbors in northwest Salem. Neighbors here tell us the young mother has always kept to herself. On her Facebook facebook page she writes her son is her world i just saw it on facebook my daughter posted it people who live near the quintero apartments in salem say they never thought twice about seeing 25 year old carissa

fretwell and her three-year-old son billy until until now. I just feel sick, just sick at my stomach. A white car registered to the missing mom is parked outside her apartment. Right in front of it, a green mountaineer with a college financial aid application that appears to be signed by Fretwell in the front seat. But no one has seen or heard from mother or son since Monday, May 13th. Straight out to syndicated talk show host Dave Mack. Dave, I want to take this from the very beginning. First of all, tell me about Carissa and Bill Fretwell, mom and son. You know, she's a single mom, Nancy, and she and Billy, they do everything together.

As you heard, very quiet. A lot of people don't really know who she is, but what they know of her is wonderful. She's shy. She's got a loving family. But all of a sudden, out of the clear blue, she and Billy go missing and we've got nothing. You mentioned the TV being on and being on the same screen for multiple days. Jeff Scott Morgan joining me, forensics expert, professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.

Joe Scott, question. Two vehicles connected to Carissa Fretwell right there in front of her home. That tells me a lot. Yeah, it does, Nancy. It gives us an indication that she is still in, or at least the vehicles are in, this location. They have not been moved. So she has personally not gotten into the vehicles and exited this location. So that gives us the question, where is she and how did she get away from this place? The vehicles being parked at her place tell me a little bit more in my mind, or at least I can, a little more conjecture.

It tells me that may have been the last place that she was. She was last known to be there. The TV is on. The vehicles are there. That gives me kind of the beginning of a timeline there at the home. To Dr. Ryan Fuller, clinical psychologist, executive director, New York Behavioral Health. Dr. Fuller, thanks for being with us. You know, the way that Dave Mack described Carissa, a family person, but very quiet, seemingly shy. Her whole world was taking care of the three-year-old little boy bill you know this is not like a person that goes out a lot at night that um is an avid jogger

last seen on a wooded trail um didn't have people that she didn't know very well trooping in and out of her apartment all the time. That tells me a lot about her. Weigh in. Yeah, I mean, I think to some extent that someone's personality style is focused on the home, focused on the child and the family. And, you know, she's described as someone, I guess,

it seems like she worked, but other than that, she might have been around the house a lot. It seems like she's described as someone I guess it seems like she worked but other than that she might have been around the house a lot it seems like she's going to be protective and you know we don't we don't know for sure but we can imagine someone like that's going to be careful and so a stranger might be have a rough time getting around. Another issue Dr. Fuller is that if you've got a home body it really closes in the circle of people you're exposed to. Of course, there's always the potential of a stranger on stranger. But when you have a smaller circle, that reduces the potential killers, the number of potential killers. Now, of course, to you, Joe Scott Morgan, there's always a nut at the grocery store or in the parking lot. I spoke

with a woman the other day who had her three boys with her. And she went from Kroger across the street to the drugstore and some nut followed her from the Kroger jelly department and ended up in her van while she was in the drugstore. I mean, so it does happen. The point I'm trying to make in a very roundabout way is the smaller your circle of friends or, you know, acquaintances is, the smaller the net. Yeah, you're right, Nancy. Even though those stranger on stranger events are very, very scary, we have to admit that. You go out and you interact with people like this, and you come in contact with them. What's really, really kind of, from an investigative standpoint, really key here is that those intimates, those people that are in our orbit, those are the people that you really have to keep your eye on.

Well, let me ask you this to Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host. Tell me about the search for Carissa and Bill. What does it entail? Everything, Nancy. It entails, you know, you mentioned the timeline of tracking exactly when she was last seen, which is the day after Mother's Day. The police began right there at her apartment and went door to door. Then neighborhood by neighborhood,

they've interviewed neighbors who really can't shed a lot of information. They've interviewed family members. It was family members that actually reported her missing. They've interviewed them and they've continued to just spread out one by one. But this is almost door to door, street to street right now,

just trying to get any kind of information. You mentioned her vehicles are still there at the apartment complex, so there's no sign that she went anywhere willingly. You're absolutely right. Take a listen to KOIN6. One neighbor tells me he did notice something unusual at her apartment, but that was about two months ago, and he has no idea if it might be related. We heard a man and a woman arguing incredibly loud. Man was swearing a lot. There was a kid crying in the background.

And the woman was yelling at him to get out of her apartment. Dave Mack, don't lead me on. What exactly do they hear? Nancy, a couple of months before she goes missing, before she and Billy go missing, the neighbors said they heard a violent argument inside her apartment. They heard a little boy crying in the background. They heard a lot of profanity coming from a man. They didn't identify who. And yet they heard Carissa repeatedly screaming, get out of my apartment.

Now, that's like two months before she and Billy go missing. Okay, we're learning a lot about her, but then we come upon this. She just recently moved to another apartment and new job in West Salem while battling Wolf in court for child support. A paternity test last year proved he was Billy's father, but court records show Wolf, THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER.

THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER.

THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. THE CHILD'S FATHER. I don't want to think that he did anything, but it's just super weird that it was the time frame.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She just recently moved to another apartment and new job in West Salem while battling Wolf in court for child support. A paternity test last year proved he was Billy's father. But court records show Wolf, who's married and has other older children, petitioned to have the amount reduced. He was supposed to begin payments soon. THE CHILD'S FAMILY. THE CHILD'S FAMILY. THE CHILD'S FAMILY. THE CHILD'S FAMILY. THE RECORD SHOW WOLF, WHO IS MARRIED AND HAS OTHER OLDER CHILDREN, PETITIONED TO HAVE THE AMOUNT REDUCED. HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BEGIN PAYMENTS SOON.

I THINK THE CHILD SUPPORT KIND OF TOP IT OFF FOR MICHAEL. I THINK HE, I DON'T WANT TO THINK THAT HE DID ANYTHING, BUT IT'S JUST SUPER WEIRD THAT IT WAS THE TIME FRAME. IT WAS LIKE THREE OR FOUR WEEKS AGO. NOW THE FORMER VOLUNTEER that it was the time frame. It was like three or four weeks ago. Now the former volunteer Gaston firefighter sits behind bars while a community searches for answers, holding out hope a mother

and her son are found. It breaks my heart. I hope she's okay. I'll just miss her a whole lot. Okay, let me understand something. Joining me right now, criminal defense attorney, federal trial lawyer, Paula Dottari. Paula, how can he have a wife and children and nobody knows he's going to court to get child support payments reduced? Well, Nancy, just like he had an affair and he impregnated this young woman, his family had no idea that he did that. I mean, I think he managed to evade his wife's knowing about this court hearing. Well, here's another thing. I mean, when you challenge paternity of a child, you say, it's not my child. You go to court.

There's a hearing for that because it had to be a court-ordered paternity test. Then you get child support thrown on you, which you deserve that and more. But then he goes back to court. I mean, how could he keep it a secret? You know, Dr. Ryan Fuller, executive director of New York Behavioral Health, Dr. Fuller, if you don't show up to court, it gets printed in the paper for Pete's sake in legal notices. How in the world did this guy lead such a double life that he could keep not one but two court proceedings and a whole other family.

He's got Carissa Fretwell, the baby boy, now three, Bill Fretwell. He's fought paternity in court. Now he's wanting a child support payment reduction. That's pretty public. How did he manage? What kind of mindset is it that you can keep all that a secret? Yeah, clinically, I mean, I've had a number of clients who actually have sort of led two lives and have had, you know, two separate families or people on the side. So one, it's possible the

family just wasn't on top of the news, but he also might be someone, I mean, I don't know about him, but someone who could do this to be quite charismatic or manipulative or try to convince the person they're wrong and what they're reading isn't accurate and things like that. And just to convince the person they're trustworthy and they should be believed as opposed to others or news stories. Well, let me ask you this, Dr. Fuller. Is there a name for that personality? Is it some kind of a personality disorder that you have a whole double life, including a secret baby? There's not a specific personality disorder that might encapsulate that, although in the cases I've seen clinically, sometimes there are aspects of narcissistic

personality disorder where the person just thinks they're sort of grand and worthy of having more than that, and that the other person may not deserve them and something like that. But it's not specific to having two families. Talk about leading a double life. Listen to our friend Emily Burris. Friends say the two met when Carissa was working at a sandwich shop in McMinnville. Wolf was working at Cascade Steel, where Carissa also began part-time work as a security guard. After getting pregnant, they say she co-signed and moved into a new apartment with his help. He had like a second key made and there was multiple occasions that he was already in her apartment when she got home. But then we come

upon this. Listen. The Yamhill County District Attorney says they were back this weekend in an the I'm trying to process everything still. Emotions are raw for friends and family of Carissa Fretwell as hopes that she and her son would be found alive vanished over the weekend. She's going to be very missed. The young mother from Salem and her three-year-old son, Billy, were discovered Saturday on a private rural property just miles from the home of Michael Wolfe, the man accused in their murders. But this is the area where we were, where the investigators were, and ultimately the two bodies were found. The bodies of not only Carissa Fretwell, age 25, but her little boy, three-year-old Bill Fretwell found dead.

Listen. The Yamhill County District Attorney says growing evidence pointed them to that property where they learned Wolf had previously fished and cut firewood. The DA says ultimately their bodies were recovered on private property in an area further up Turner Creek Road. But there were about 40 to 50 members of a search crew out here, and this gives you an idea of the heavily forested conditions they were dealing with. the Officials say Carissa died of a single gunshot to her head. They're still trying to figure out how Billy was killed. The news providing some closure, but little comfort. Billy didn't get to live life. He didn't get to do anything. He's a sick man for doing that.

I know why. I'll never understand it. The family, the loved ones of this gorgeous young mom, Carissa Fretwell, and even more upsetting, her three-year-old little boy, Bill Fretwell, absolutely distraught. It's hard enough to lose somebody you love, I know. But then to discover they were murdered. And it sounds to me, to Justice Scott Morgan, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, Death Investigator, the killer went to a lot of trouble to hide their bodies. They stayed hidden for a long time. Yeah, they did, Nancy. And this area is so isolated. I'm really wondering how the investigators got on to this particular location.

But needless to say, it's not an easy task to get to this location. This is key. You're not going to find a young mother and this beautiful little child just aimlessly wandering around out there. They went out there with a specific purpose. This would give us an indication they were taken to this location. Well, now hold on just a moment. I mean, let me go to Paula Notari, criminal defense attorney.

Paula is just like Scott Peterson. He goes fishing. Where does he hide the body? In his old fishing hole, the San Francisco Bay. I mean, if you take a look at criminals, so many of them, it's like when a perp goes on the run, and I would be talking to a bail bondsman in the hall of the courthouse. I'm like, go to his mother's house and look under the bed. If he's not there, look in the closet. It goes back to what he knows and here this was the fishing hole

of michael wolf bam there are the bodies yeah in in my experience um exactly um investigators look at the likely places where where suspects um might. And here, in this particular case, this was his backyard. This is practically the place where he did all of his fishing, and he had access to this area. He knew the ground. So this was the perfect place for them to search, and exactly they found what they were looking for. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. The DA says ultimately their bodies were recovered on private property in an area the providing some closure but little comfort. Billy didn't get to live in, didn't get to live life,

didn't get to do anything and that's he's a sick man for doing that. I know why, just I'll never understand it. The Yamhill County District Attorney says growing evidence pointed them to that property where they learned Wolf had previously fished and cut firewood. The bodies were partially hidden. Members of the McMinnville Fire Department made the discovery. By Sunday, medical examiners confirmed the remains were Carissa and Billy. Officials say Carissa died of a single gunshot to her head. They're still trying to figure out how Billy was killed. I want to go to Dr. Tim Gallagher, a renowned medical examiner out of the Florida jurisdiction. Dr. Gallagher,

the bodies had been there. I mean, once they started searching, they were found fairly quickly, but a long time had passed, many, many days until they started searching. Question, is that why they can't determine COD, cause of of death on the little boy, Dr. Gallagher? There are a few things that happen to a body when it's exposed to the elements. Number one is decomposition. Another thing that happens is animal predation. So there could be a few compounding variables that have the medical examiner trying to determine what the cause of death is. Animal predation certainly is one. Other damage that may have been caused after the person had died can also be another variable in trying to

determine the cause of death. So toxicology will also be another variable in trying to determine the cause of death. So toxicology will also be another example. So these things have to be determined. These things take time to determine, and the cause of death cannot be determined until all of these variables are either eliminated or included to come up with the cause of death. Well, Dr. Gallagher, everyone, medical examiner, joining me out of Florida, this occurs in Salem, Oregon. And I don't know what the temperature was at the time, but it's getting really hot. How does that affect the decomposition of the bodies? Well, the decomposition of the human body is directly related to the temperature.

So the higher the temperature, the greater the rate of human flesh decomposition. In places where it's very cold, the rate of decomposition is very slow. So this also must be taken into account when determining, A, the time of death, and then, B, the cause of death. You know, an interesting thing to Joe Scott Morgan, her bank card. I'm talking about Carissa Fretwell, the young mom. Her bank card and her glasses were left at home. Family members reported they go in, the apartment was unlocked. Things that she normally would have had with her were still there. What does that tell you

about the way her death went down? I think that whatever happened, happened rather swiftly. It kind of took her unawares. Nancy, this is a young mother who has a small child. If she's required to wear glasses in order just to make it around in this world. She's not going to walk out of the door without her glasses on, you know, trying to take care of a child. Also, what kind of means did she have? Well, if she's using her bank card, which most of us do, she has to have means to buy gas or buy food or whatever the case might be. And she leaves this behind too. All of these elements come into play when we're trying to paint the picture of what actually happened in her last moments. You know, speaking of it being potentially a sudden, a sudden decision on the killer's part, I don't necessarily agree with that, Joe Scott. I'll tell you why.

I believe that this was long planned. I think that this was planned the day he had to go to court and fight about whether Bill Fretwell, the three-year-old little boy, was his child. The day he started fighting paternity. The day he wanted that child support payment reduced. I mean, this guy has been living in a very carefully constructed double world for a long time. Okay. I think this was very carefully planned for one reason. So his wife and family would not find out. To Dave Mack, syndicated talk show host, what, if any, is the evidence? Let me just add one little thing to this, Nancy. His wife did find out prior to their last court

appearance, and that was what forced him to push for lowering that child support payment. On top of that, she was seen outside of Carissa's apartment arguing about wanting custody of little Billy. So they were already in the last week before she goes missing. There was a lot of activity where Wolf's family did find out about Billy. Found out he had fathered and his wife wanted that boy, according to what we're hearing from other neighbors. Okay, everybody in the studio's mouth is still dropped open. Okay, we need a shrink, and we need one fast. Dr. Ryan Fuller, help me out.

So his wife, they already have children. He's got children with his wife. She wants to launch a legal campaign to take Bill, three-year-old Bill, away from Carissa and get custody? What? Well, as I said before, in the clinical cases I've seen, oftentimes in those couples, there's really a dominant player. And so the person leading a double life, they might have convinced this spouse, you know, that they're really an empathetic character and this is what needs to be done. And

oftentimes, you know, you can see in these couples where this sort of dependent person goes along, doesn't want to see what's there in the first place, this double life, it's kind of hiding it from themselves or in denial. And then it comes to light and they're, they paint it in a picture that's much different. And, you know, it sounds like in this case, it's possible she, you know, had already forgiven and was even open to bringing in, you know, this biological son into the family. Well, you know what, you sure are putting perfume on the pig, Dr. Fuller. Wanted to welcome the little boy into the family is a heck of a lot different than standing in front of the lover's house screaming about getting custody of the little boy. That's a heck of a lot different. As a matter of fact, the question of custody of Bill is a powder keg. Listen. If there's a custody issue or not, I can't say that

Carissa has sole custody of William. They do reside together in West Salem. I know they had some problems because he was married, and she was a little scared of him. From the very beginning, Carissa's friends who knew of the relationship wondered whether he had something to do with her disappearance. After she got pregnant, he did threaten her. He didn't want his wife to find out. Dr. Fuller, Moyen.

It just seems like this is preventable. Either she was unaware of her options about getting help from law enforcement or the legal system. She was too scared of the repercussions that he would act against her, or she didn't trust they'd be able to protect her. And this is one of the things that always frustrates me when I have people talking about people and their lives, where it just seems like the stalking laws and harassment laws are not strong enough to give law enforcement enough resources to be able to go out and take care of someone like this, who's obviously a threat to her and her son before something happens. And I just figured this panel knows more than I do about that and wonder what can be done to sort of help people protect themselves before something so horrible like this kind of tragedy happens. Dr. Fuller, in addition to working as a prosecutor in inner city Atlanta for 10 years, I volunteered at night at the Battered Women's

Center. I can't tell you how often I begged women to go forward, to prosecute, to move out, to start over. They're just paralyzed with fear, and they hope, they believe, falsely, that things will get better. I have no doubt in my mind this guy, Michael Wolff, had threatened her on many occasions. She told her friends she was afraid, and you're absolutely right. I believe, along with you, Dr. Fuller, it was completely avoidable. She was just paralyzed in fear and in hope that somehow things would turn around. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We have taken into custody Michael John Wolf. He has been taken into custody in the Portland area by Salem Police Department detectives.

Currently, he's going to be charged with aggravated murder on two counts and two counts of kidnapping in the first degree. He will be lodged in the Yamhill County Jail later tonight. Further charges will be determined by the Anne Hill County District Attorney's Office. A couple of things have come up during this investigation, one of which being whether or not Mr. Wolfe is the biological father of William Fretwell. As you all have reported, based on some other court records, we do believe that he is the biological father of William Fretwell. Okay, we know this guy, Michael Wolfe, the married lover, the father of three-year-old Bill Fretwell, has been taken into custody, but listen to our friend Emily Burris. Investigators released probable cause documents revealing a timeline of surveillance video and cell phone evidence from the night Carissa was last seen. At 8 45, surveillance video shows Wolfe leaving the scene. The police say they're not sure if the suspect is still alive or whether Carissa was last seen

at 8 45 surveillance video shows Wolf leaving Cascade Steel during the shift, he told investigators he was working. Detectives say Wolf parked a golf cart next to bushes near the parking lot. Cell phone records then show

his phone moving south being placed in an area near Carissa's apartment from nine to almost 9 45 that night. From their phone records show the scene. He was walking out of the building. He was walking out of the building. He was walking from 9 to almost 9 45 that night from their phone records show him heading north after midnight, pinging off a tower near Kaiser, then back at

his work in McMinnville. Cascade deal surveillance video then shows him emerging from the same bushes he left through around 2 30 on the 14th with a backpack and a white trash bag. About 20 minutes later, he's seen walking out the door and carrying a trash bag. About 20 minutes later, he's seen

walking out another door in a different shirt again, carrying that trash bag. More cell phone records later show both his anchor is his phones using a tower near Wolf's work and a text from her phone sent that afternoon using a tower

near his home. Detectives say the circumstantial evidence places the two of them in the same areas the night she was last seen, despite Wolfe telling detectives he hadn't seen her or Ben Daylin over a year. Detectives also say that they believe the only known person who would benefit from the disappearance or criminal homicide of Carissa and William is Michael. Dave Mack, what can you tell me about any actual evidence against him? Well, what they have is they actually have been able to track through cell phone records and video. You know, we have surveillance cameras everywhere,

it seems. They've been able to track his movements. Now, he was on the radar immediately based on great detective work with interviews and neighbors and things like that. So they were able to track his whereabouts by his cell phone pinging off different towers. On top of everything else, they've been able to tie, and again, it goes back to the investigative work, not necessarily DNA evidence. They've been able to trace his whereabouts during the different times involved

where they suspect that she was taken and how she was found, where she was actually found. As you mentioned, very remote area. So they've been able to physically tie him to that area and to her body. On top of everything else, they did recover a gun in one of those search warrants, although it has yet to be tied directly to the gun that shot Carissa. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, weigh in on the evidence that we've got. What do we know about the evidence and how, if at all, does it tie Michael Wolfe to the murders?

Well, relative to, as Dave was talking about, relative to the weapon, we do know that they've talked about that she died as a result of a gunshot wound. If, in fact, they can tie that weapon to him as well as the projectile that ended her life, then they put that in his hands at that point in time. If he's the owner of the weapon, this sort of thing, the ballistic evidence can tie it back, not to mention the familiarity with the area that he had specific to this location

where the bodies were found, and most importantly, Nancy, his access to this woman and Billy. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, when you have a known bullet, for instance, the one taken out of Carissa Fretwell, then you find a gun. For instance, the gun found pursuant to search warrant in his belongings, Michael Wolfe, the lover. You take a bullet of the same caliber and you shoot it from the known gun.

Then you put it under a microscope and you compare it to the bullet taken out of the body. It's just like a fingerprint. Explain. Yeah, each of these rounds that's fired, as it passes down the barrel of the weapon itself, it leaves a unique ballistic fingerprint through the lands and grooves, the rifling on the bullet itself, the rifling marks on the bullet itself. And what you do is you take the tested bullet that's been fired many times into a water tank or into cotton swabs, and you take it out and then you compare it to what's left behind. As Dr. Gallagher mentioned, sometimes bullets can be deformed that are removed at autopsy. Sometimes you can find

them that are relatively intact, but you'll compare it based upon the markings on the bullet and the weight of the bullet. And then you get a ballistic match. What we know right now is that the married lover, Michael Wolfe, has been in jail in Yamal County, no bond. He was indicted by a grand jury on kidnapping and aggravated murder charges. Okay, when you say aggravated murder, Dave Mack, in that jurisdiction of Oregon, is there a death penalty? Nancy, there is a death penalty on the table for the aggravated murder charge. Well, in most jurisdictions, Dave Mack, that do have the death penalty, more than one body under the law is mass

murder. So that is a special circumstance under which the state could seek the death penalty. This guy has not entered a plea yet to Paula Notari, criminal defense attorney. What do you expect is going to happen when he is in court and if he goes to trial? Well, I think that his lawyers are probably trying to get him a plea deal because right now things are just not looking good for this guy. If he goes to court, I think he's going to be quickly convicted. There's modus, there's opportunity. We've talked about the cell site evidence, which shows that he was in the location, the fact that the bodies were hidden in a place where he had access to, he was connected.

There was just no, the way in which mom and the son disappeared shows that it was unlikely a struggle, that she probably knew the person and they probably took her away forcefully. But all of these things are just adding up in a very concrete way. And it's looking very damning. They have the babysitter who can say that there was strife, there was arguments, it was a very heated custody or support hearing that happened. He had just been forced to pay child support, which he was unhappy about. So everything is just really adding up in a nice little neat package for the prosecutor

against him. I think if they go for the death penalty, this might just be a plea. If his lawyers could negotiate a life plea, that might be a probability. What were you just saying about the babysitter evidence? Well, the babysitter, she's a crucial witness because she's saying that, you know, she was taking care of Carissa. She was taking care of the little boy, and the babysitter said that she had several conversations with Carissa, that he had threatened to take William and get custody of him. And so she's just a witness to the fact that there was strife in their relationship and he was angry and it was this heated child support hearing. So I think it goes along with motive. He may want a plea, but if they're seeking the death penalty, not just for the death of the mother, but for the three-year-old little boy, he'll never plead to the death penalty. So that

very likely would go to trial. Yeah. So in all of these cases, we see nationally covered these cases where they're seeking the death sentence. And obviously, people don't plead to death penalty, you know, cases. So if they're seeking the death penalty, we're going to see a trial. But I just don't think that, you know, he's this guy has a chance at trial. Right now, Michael Wolff sitting behind bars. If you have information, please dial 503-588-8477. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.